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Author Topic: Which Is the True Church? Game.  (Read 29113 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 01:11:39 AM »

RULES OF THE GAME


Quote
Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

I'm rarely quoted, so I'm pretty safe here.



I will try real hard not to quote you.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 01:12:03 AM by Mivac » Logged
Salpy
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2011, 01:18:41 AM »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

But you're very nice.   Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2011, 01:59:14 AM »

Did I mention that OO's have really great websites?

http://www.erkohet.com/
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2011, 02:02:02 AM »

Also, the Oriental Orthodox Church has bishops and priests who give really good sermons:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25886.0.html
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2011, 02:52:42 AM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w

With human nature causing all of us to tend to favor the darkness, especially rebellion and lack of trust in authority, it only makes sense that Christ would appoint a visible leader to shepherd His Church until He comes again.
No such need was felt by the Fathers gathering in the Apostolic Counicl of Jerusalem and the Ecumenical Councils.  The Apostolate-Episcopate Christ appointed in His Church did the job.
Perhaps not, although I think all of us can agree that Rome held some sort of primacy in the pre-Schism Church. Where the dispute arises is what type of primacy it was, whether it was one of honor or one of jurisdiction. Are there not indications from writings of pre-Schism Popes which hinted if not outright declared the See of Rome to possess universal jurisdiction? If this was a view held in the West, then it is quite possible that it is as ancient as the view of a primacy of honor and Councils being the only authority. The question is which view is right, and how can you be sure that the Eastern view is the correct one? From a strictly logical standpoint, I believe the RC ecclesiology makes the most sense. You have the Pope at the top (similar to the President), the college of cardinals and the rest of the Episcopate (similar to a congress), and you have marriage tribunals and canon lawyers (similar to a judicial branch). It is almost like a holy form of government, only much more ancient than modern republics. The Pope really does not go unchecked like some might mistakenly think. He has all of his advisers at the Holy See whom he consults, almost like a cabinet, and then of course all the Bishops of the Church which he can summon to a Council.
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2011, 06:15:33 AM »

I think St. Ignatios gave us the best rule for discovering the Church when he said:  "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid [Letter to the Smyrnaeans, no. 8].

I hold that each and every bishop receives his authority from St. Peter and the other Apostles in order to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice and to celebrate the other Holy Mysteries, to preach the Gospel, to safeguard Apostolic doctrine as expressed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the decrees of the seven Ecumenical Councils, and to see to it that the spiritual needs of the faithful under his fatherly care are met by the various ecclesiastical orders (presbyters, deacons, monastics, etc.) within the Church.

I have found all of this within the Melkite Catholic Church of which I am a member.
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2011, 07:02:34 AM »

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Quote
Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

I'm rarely quoted, so I'm pretty safe here.


I will try real hard not to quote you.
No points for off topic posts which don't defend your Church (see rule one)
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2011, 02:37:12 PM »

I think St. Ignatios gave us the best rule for discovering the Church when he said:  "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid [Letter to the Smyrnaeans, no. 8].

I hold that each and every bishop receives his authority from St. Peter and the other Apostles in order to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice and to celebrate the other Holy Mysteries, to preach the Gospel, to safeguard Apostolic doctrine as expressed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the decrees of the seven Ecumenical Councils, and to see to it that the spiritual needs of the faithful under his fatherly care are met by the various ecclesiastical orders (presbyters, deacons, monastics, etc.) within the Church.

I have found all of this within the Melkite Catholic Church of which I am a member.
With all due respect, could you please explain what you mean by "each and every bishop receives authority from St. Peter"? I have heard this from several Eastern Orthodox Christians but I am having trouble understanding it. What does it mean to receive authority from St. Peter in the Eastern view, and how does one know that Bishops who are ordained are specifically receiving St. Peter's succession rather than the succession of the Apostles in general? In our Church it is more concrete because it is just whichever Bishop is elected to the See of Rome becomes Pope and Successor to St. Peter, but how is this determined in Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Eastern Catholicism?
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2011, 06:48:25 PM »

Did I mention our cuisine?

We have yummy Ethiopian food:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14005.0.html

Delicious Armenian lavash:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13011.0.html

And then, who could beat Indian chicken curry?
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2011, 06:50:27 PM »

Speaking of our Indian brothers, we Oriental Orthodox have elephants, and not just in zoos:



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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2011, 07:00:45 PM »

We also have the Ark of the Covenant:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13693.0.html#top

And Noah's Ark:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14022.0.html
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2011, 07:04:36 PM »

I think St. Ignatios gave us the best rule for discovering the Church when he said:  "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid [Letter to the Smyrnaeans, no. 8].

I hold that each and every bishop receives his authority from St. Peter and the other Apostles in order to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice and to celebrate the other Holy Mysteries, to preach the Gospel, to safeguard Apostolic doctrine as expressed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the decrees of the seven Ecumenical Councils, and to see to it that the spiritual needs of the faithful under his fatherly care are met by the various ecclesiastical orders (presbyters, deacons, monastics, etc.) within the Church.

I have found all of this within the Melkite Catholic Church of which I am a member.
With all due respect, could you please explain what you mean by "each and every bishop receives authority from St. Peter"? I have heard this from several Eastern Orthodox Christians but I am having trouble understanding it. What does it mean to receive authority from St. Peter in the Eastern view, and how does one know that Bishops who are ordained are specifically receiving St. Peter's succession rather than the succession of the Apostles in general? In our Church it is more concrete because it is just whichever Bishop is elected to the See of Rome becomes Pope and Successor to St. Peter, but how is this determined in Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Eastern Catholicism?
We have discussed this before:
Greetings.

I was wondering how the Orthodox interpret Scripture passages that Catholics cite to back up the claim that St. Peter and his successors hold primacy over the other Bishops of the Church.

We interpret them as the Holy Spirit wrote them and as the Apostles taught them.


Quote
Mainly, I'm wondering what the Orthodox interpretation of St. Matthew 16:18-19, which says "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

Thanks in advance for all of your replies.

God Bless,

Wyatt

On this one:

This has been dealt with a lot (including on St. Chrysostom's words on St. James and St. John, in addition to St. Peter). For an example:
Witega, you seem to say the Fathers often understood references to Peter as meaning the whole group of Apostles.  Does that apply here with Chrysostom's quote?

I found this quote, on the topic of it not only applying to the whole group of Apostles, but also to the lowly bishop of a rural town way down in the stix of Upper Egypt:

Due to the ongoing debate on the Fourth Council, I by chance was reaquainted with a text I thought appropriate here.  It is from the "Life of Shenoute" by his disciple St. Besa.  St. Shenoute's writings were the examplar of Coptic literature, but his chief claim to fame was cracking his staff over Nestorius' head at the Council of Ephesus.  In one episode, "One day," Besa says, "our father Shenoute and our Lord Jesus were sitting down talking together" (a very common occurance according to the Vita) and the Bishop of Shmin came wishing to meet the abbot.  When Shenoute sent word that he was too busy to come to the bishop, the bishop got angry and threatened to excommunicate him for disobedience:

Quote
The servant went to our father [Shenouti] and said to him what the bishop had told him.  But my father smiled graciously with laughter and said: "See what this man of flesh and blood has said! Behold, here sitting with me is he who created heaven and earth! I will not go while I am with him." But the Savior said to my father: "O Shenoute, arise and go out to the bishop, lest he excommunicate you. Otherwise, I cannot let you enter [heaven] because of the covenant I made with Peter, saying 'What you will bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you will loose on earth will be loosed in heaven' [Matthew 16:19].  When my father heard these words of the Savior, he arose, went out to the bishop and greeted him.

 Besa, Life of Shenoute 70-72 (trans. Bell). On the context of this story see Behlmer 1998, esp. pp. 353-354. Gaddis, There is No Crime for those who have Christ, p. 296
http://books.google.com/books?id=JGEibDA8el4C

Now this dates not only before the schism of East-West, and the Schism of Chalcedon, but nearly the Schism of Ephesus.  Now Shmin is just a town in southern Egypt, and the bishop there just a suffragan of Alexandria.  So it would seem to be odd if the Vatican's interpretation of Matthew 16:19 were the ancient one why this would be applied to a bishop far from Rome, in a land where St. Peter never founded any Church.  But it makes perfect sense from the Orthodox interpretation of Matthew 16:19, and indeed, according to "the Catholic Encyclopedia," the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers.[/size]
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 07:05:25 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2011, 07:17:21 PM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w

With human nature causing all of us to tend to favor the darkness, especially rebellion and lack of trust in authority, it only makes sense that Christ would appoint a visible leader to shepherd His Church until He comes again.
No such need was felt by the Fathers gathering in the Apostolic Counicl of Jerusalem and the Ecumenical Councils.  The Apostolate-Episcopate Christ appointed in His Church did the job.
Perhaps not, although I think all of us can agree that Rome held some sort of primacy in the pre-Schism Church. Where the dispute arises is what type of primacy it was, whether it was one of honor or one of jurisdiction. Are there not indications from writings of pre-Schism Popes which hinted if not outright declared the See of Rome to possess universal jurisdiction? If this was a view held in the West, then it is quite possible that it is as ancient as the view of a primacy of honor and Councils being the only authority. The question is which view is right, and how can you be sure that the Eastern view is the correct one? From a strictly logical standpoint, I believe the RC ecclesiology makes the most sense. You have the Pope at the top (similar to the President), the college of cardinals and the rest of the Episcopate (similar to a congress), and you have marriage tribunals and canon lawyers (similar to a judicial branch). It is almost like a holy form of government, only much more ancient than modern republics. The Pope really does not go unchecked like some might mistakenly think. He has all of his advisers at the Holy See whom he consults, almost like a cabinet, and then of course all the Bishops of the Church which he can summon to a Council.
You are aware that a thousand years ago, cardinals did not exist, nor marriage tribunals, no?

Pope St. Victor claimed universal jurisdiction. Councils of bishops throughout the world, East and West rebuked him.

According to Pastor Aeternus, the supreme pontiff is judged by no one.  How does he "not go unchecked?"

If you go and see how Constantinople, Alexandria (EO and OO), Antioch (EO and OO), Jerusalem, Cyprus, Armenia and Georgia govern themselves now, and you see the same system that was in place over the first millenium.  In the first millenium, no Patriarch of Constantinople, Antioch or Jerusalem, no Pope of Alexandria, no Catholicos of Armenia or Georgia, no Archbishop of Cyprus ever received a pallium from Rome.

btw, Pope Sylvester neither called nor presided over the First Ecumenical Council, Pope Damsus was not invovled with the Second, Pope Cyril of Alexandria conducted the Third Council, Pope Leo's legates did preside over the Fourth but it did not follow his instructions, the Fifth was held over Pope Vigilius' objections (eventually it struck him from the diptychs), Pope Agatho joined in convening and Pope Leo agreed to the Sixth in anathematizing Pope Honorius. EP Tarasius convened the Seventh Council and invited Pope Adrian I.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 07:28:03 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2011, 07:29:40 PM »

So ialmisry why would the Oriential Orthodox Church not be the true Church versus the Church with the 7 Ecumenical Councils (Eastern Orthodox)?
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2011, 07:31:50 PM »

Did I mention that we have shish-kebob?   Grin
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« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2011, 07:34:48 PM »

Did I mention that we have shish-kebob?   Grin

Finally!  Something that pertains to the Coptic Church Grin
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« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2011, 07:49:58 PM »

Well there's a whole thread about how great the Copts are:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23039.0.html

The Coptic Church is amazing.  Among other things, you have such ancient monasteries with ancient and beautiful icons:

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/01/the-1700-year-old-christian-monastery-hidden-deep-in-egypts-desert/





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« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2011, 07:57:24 PM »

But I have to brag about how beautiful Armenian illuminated manuscripts are:



http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/arts_of_armenia/miniatures.htm



http://www.armsite.com/miniatures/miniatures3.phtml



http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/armenica.cgi?626486635142104=2=lc=1====lcz0037


« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 08:15:40 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2011, 08:01:36 PM »

We also have beautiful khatchkars:

http://www.khachkar.am/en/



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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2011, 08:10:27 PM »

The Syriac Church also has beautiful and ancient crosses:




http://sor.cua.edu/Feast/Cross.html
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« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2011, 08:14:35 PM »

But of course the very most amazing thing about the Oriental Orthodox Church is the awesome Lord we worship:



http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/armenica.cgi?626486635142104=2=lc=1====lcz0037

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« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2011, 11:28:10 PM »

The Oriental Orthodox also have great architecture:


The ancient monastery of Mor Gabriel:



http://www.morgabriel.org/pictures.html



The world famous churches of Lalibela:



http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/18



The Hanging Church of Egypt:



http://www.coptic-cairo.com/oldcairo/church/mollaqa/mollaqa.html



Datev Monastery in Armenia:



http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tatev-Monastery/196377701808


St. George Orthodox Church in India:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puthupally_Palli
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« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2011, 11:29:40 PM »

Datev Monastery in Armenia:

Beautiful pic  Smiley
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2011, 11:40:02 PM »

You quoted me!

But that's OK since you're such a sweetheart.   Smiley


By the way, going back to the cuisine, I don't want people to think that Oriental Orthodox food is only eastern.  Our British Orthodox brothers have roast beef and yorkshire pudding.  And for breakfast they have hot, toasted crumpets dripping with butter, consumed with a good strong breakfast tea.


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 11:52:18 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2011, 12:44:36 AM »

The first Church was the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve having children according to the fathers of the ACOE. But if you mean, which Church has the best fruits to offer our Lord, I would say the Assyrian Church of the East. It has more Martyrs than any other Church as Salpy can attest. No other Church preserved the abbreviated form of the Name of God or the scriptures  in their pure untainted form (including the vowel pointers), which says much to me. The oldest most reliable Old Testament Peshitta Tanakh which bears the trace of the captivity (ie: the pen of Ezra). The first and oldest Christian Church building (building, not the Church which is US) is near Ormiah, Iran, Mart Maryam (St. Mary).  By foot with persecutors after it, the ACOE evangelized the Far East peacefully without weapons :













In Iran the president Ahmadinejad said the ACOE were the forefathers of Persia. This is true. By the way, the ACOE guards the graves of the three wise men there. Here are some ACOE "Persian Crosses":



Tombstone of a Persian Prince :



The Church which offers communion freely to all validly baptized Christians thus fullfilling the command "Let the little ones come to me". List goes on.






(Two copyrighted images removed per Rafa's request.)





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« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2011, 12:44:38 AM »


Well, the ACOE has relatives of the TRUE ark of the Covenant serving as it's beloved Patriarchs. Mary's relatives. Also Saint Josephs. And many others too. Relics? The ACOE was the first Church given the greatest of all relics:



The  relic not made by human hands.
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« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2011, 12:44:39 AM »

Food:

Quote
RECIPE FOR BAKLAVA:

It is widely believed however, that the Assyrians at around 8th century B.C. were the first people who put together a few layers of thin bread dough, with chopped nuts in between those layers, added some honey and baked it in their primitive wood burning ovens. This earliest known version of baklava was baked only on special occasions. In fact, historically baklava was considered a food for the rich until the mid-19th century.
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« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2011, 12:52:44 AM »

You are aware that a thousand years ago, cardinals did not exist, nor marriage tribunals, no?
Fair enough. Neither I nor my Church has a problem with development concerning understanding of doctrine or adapting Church practices. Electing a Patriarch with a college of cardinals certainly seems like a better practice than by appointment from a secular emperor, no?

Pope St. Victor claimed universal jurisdiction. Councils of bishops throughout the world, East and West rebuked him.
Via an Ecumenical Council or a local council?

According to Pastor Aeternus, the supreme pontiff is judged by no one.  How does he "not go unchecked?"
If this is so then it is being taken out of context. The Pope constantly consults with advisers and with his fellow Bishops. If this were not so then Vatican I and II would not have had the participation of the rest of the Bishops of the Catholic Church. The Pope would have simply sat back and pronounced everything ex cathedra, but he didn't. He involved the rest of the Bishops who together with him make up the Magisterium.

If you go and see how Constantinople, Alexandria (EO and OO), Antioch (EO and OO), Jerusalem, Cyprus, Armenia and Georgia govern themselves now, and you see the same system that was in place over the first millenium.  In the first millenium, no Patriarch of Constantinople, Antioch or Jerusalem, no Pope of Alexandria, no Catholicos of Armenia or Georgia, no Archbishop of Cyprus ever received a pallium from Rome.
That the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs receive the pallium from Rome seems like a necessary modification since most of the Eastern Rite Churches were Eastern Orthodox for a time. When you go in schism for a time and then decide to come back, it only makes sense that you have to go a bit farther to prove your dedication to Catholic unity.

btw, Pope Sylvester neither called nor presided over the First Ecumenical Council, Pope Damsus was not invovled with the Second, Pope Cyril of Alexandria conducted the Third Council, Pope Leo's legates did preside over the Fourth but it did not follow his instructions, the Fifth was held over Pope Vigilius' objections (eventually it struck him from the diptychs), Pope Agatho joined in convening and Pope Leo agreed to the Sixth in anathematizing Pope Honorius. EP Tarasius convened the Seventh Council and invited Pope Adrian I.
Is striking a Patriarch from the diptychs enough to indicate that said Patriarch is heretical and excommunicated? A council does not need to be held for such things?
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« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2011, 12:52:45 AM »

Did I mention our cuisine?

We have yummy Ethiopian food:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14005.0.html

Delicious Armenian lavash:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13011.0.html

And then, who could beat Indian chicken curry?
With all due respect, I hardly think that Indian or Ethiopian culture (including their food) really makes a case for whether the Oriental Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That would be akin to me claiming that because Italian or Mexican cuisine is so delicious that the RCC is the true Church based on that.
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« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2011, 12:55:45 AM »

People keep quoting me!

But you are so nice!

And Mexican and Italian food really are great!
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2011, 12:59:35 AM »

I just looked at Ozgeorge's rules again, and he doesn't say anything about the arguments in favor of a Church having to be convincing or even logical.  They just can't be insulting.   Smiley

Everyone is great!   Smiley

And Oriental Orthodox food is delicious!   Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2011, 06:05:34 AM »

The Roman Catholic Church is the greatest and most omnipotent of all churches! It has never fallen into heresy, it has kept the pure faith of the Apostles. The Catholic faith is a manly faith, a faith which bears consequences not an effeminized version of the faith of the Logos. Rome has never committed heresy, Rome is the eternal city which the Apostles Peter and Paul blessed and lived in. Are St.Andrew's letters in the Bible? NO, but St.Peter and Paul's writings are considered fundamental to the Canon of the Holy Writ. Since the Apostles Peter and Paul's epistles are considered divinely illuminated then how can their church commit schism and heresy? Impossible. True it ist, thatst we are not baptised in the holy names of Paul or Peter but we must wholeheartedly acknowledge that St.Peter is the Vicar of Christ, uponst which Christ shall build his Church.
I ask you, what other church was built such wonderous architecture, and painted such beautiful icons as the Roman Church? Why is it that the Orthodox copy our style of iconography?
Beholdst the gloiry of the Roman Church!

Praise be unto St.Peter, the vicar of Christ!
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« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2011, 08:54:48 AM »



Is that a Church, or Khazad-dûm?
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« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2011, 09:13:42 AM »

I;m not sticking around. If I win I forfeit the gift voulcher to Salpy  Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2011, 04:02:39 PM »

People keep quoting me!

But you are so nice!

And Mexican and Italian food really are great!
I agree. I love both Mexican and Italian food. Both go really well with beer. Of course, what doesn't go good with beer? LOL.

I just looked at Ozgeorge's rules again, and he doesn't say anything about the arguments in favor of a Church having to be convincing or even logical.  They just can't be insulting.   Smiley

Everyone is great!   Smiley

And Oriental Orthodox food is delicious!   Smiley
It is true that he does not say that your argument has to be logical. However, the more illogical your argument is the more you are inviting people to quote your post and refute your opinions. I would be interested to know how Ethiopian or Indian food makes a case for the Oriental Orthodox Church being the Church of the Apostles.

By the way, I too like everyone even if I do not always agree with them. Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2011, 05:18:23 PM »

It is the house of God!
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« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2011, 06:09:12 PM »


LOL

minus the Balrok
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« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »

People keep quoting me!

But you are so nice!

And Mexican and Italian food really are great!
I agree. I love both Mexican and Italian food. Both go really well with beer. Of course, what doesn't go good with beer? LOL.
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« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2011, 06:12:34 PM »

You are aware that a thousand years ago, cardinals did not exist, nor marriage tribunals, no?
Fair enough. Neither I nor my Church has a problem with development concerning understanding of doctrine or adapting Church practices. Electing a Patriarch with a college of cardinals certainly seems like a better practice than by appointment from a secular emperor, no?
No.  Btw, it is only a century that that could even be brought up as an issue, as in 1904 an emperor vetoed the election of a pope, a common enough occurance before then.

Pope St. Victor claimed universal jurisdiction. Councils of bishops throughout the world, East and West rebuked him.
Via an Ecumenical Council or a local council?
A Ecumenical series of local councils (meeting in Ecumenical Council was impossible for an illegal organization).

According to Pastor Aeternus, the supreme pontiff is judged by no one.  How does he "not go unchecked?"
If this is so then it is being taken out of context. The Pope constantly consults with advisers and with his fellow Bishops.
Every dictator has his advisors. How is this different?  And he is their head, not their "fellow."

If this were not so then Vatican I and II would not have had the participation of the rest of the Bishops of the Catholic Church.
Matters not, e.g. during Vatican II the supreme pontiff died, and the council was automatically suspended, as it could not meet until another "head of the college" was elected.

The Pope would have simply sat back and pronounced everything ex cathedra, but he didn't.
Like he did with the IC and the Assumption.

He involved the rest of the Bishops who together with him make up the Magisterium.
Lumen Gentium makes it quite clear, and emphasizes the point, that he was not bound to consult any bishop.  The President and his cabinet etc. make up the Executive Branch of the US government, but all but the VP serve at the pleasure of the President, who can fire any of them at will.  Not so in the Prime Minister parlamentary system.

If you go and see how Constantinople, Alexandria (EO and OO), Antioch (EO and OO), Jerusalem, Cyprus, Armenia and Georgia govern themselves now, and you see the same system that was in place over the first millenium.  In the first millenium, no Patriarch of Constantinople, Antioch or Jerusalem, no Pope of Alexandria, no Catholicos of Armenia or Georgia, no Archbishop of Cyprus ever received a pallium from Rome.
That the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs receive the pallium from Rome seems like a necessary modification since most of the Eastern Rite Churches were Eastern Orthodox for a time. When you go in schism for a time and then decide to come back, it only makes sense that you have to go a bit farther to prove your dedication to Catholic unity.
So those "sui juris" primates are doing penance, generation after generation?

It was a necessary modification because the primates of the autocephalous Churches all selected their primates from within their synod, with accountability only to the Orthodox Faith and no superior to advise and consent.

btw, Pope Sylvester neither called nor presided over the First Ecumenical Council, Pope Damsus was not invovled with the Second, Pope Cyril of Alexandria conducted the Third Council, Pope Leo's legates did preside over the Fourth but it did not follow his instructions, the Fifth was held over Pope Vigilius' objections (eventually it struck him from the diptychs), Pope Agatho joined in convening and Pope Leo agreed to the Sixth in anathematizing Pope Honorius. EP Tarasius convened the Seventh Council and invited Pope Adrian I.
Is striking a Patriarch from the diptychs enough to indicate that said Patriarch is heretical and excommunicated? A council does not need to be held for such things?
Are you asking about Pope Vigilius?  The Fifth Ecumenical Council was a Council.

As for other instances, it depends on the circumstances.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem wasn't deposed for heresy, and wasn't excommunicated (actually, deposition takes the place of excommunication, which takes place only if he persists in heresy, if that is what he was deposed for).  And since you need at least 12 bishops to depose any bishop, a council would always be required.
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« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2011, 06:19:44 PM »


Praise be unto St.Peter, the vicar of Christ!

Many years to St. Peter's successor!
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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2011, 06:22:23 PM »

I ask you, what other church was built such wonderous architecture, and painted such beautiful icons as the Roman Church? Why is it that the Orthodox copy our style of iconography?
You are Polish, no?
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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2011, 06:33:32 PM »

I ask you, what other church was built such wonderous architecture, and painted such beautiful icons as the Roman Church?
Quote
. The Christianisation of Russia (988)

Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here." Then the vassals spoke and said, "If the Greek faith were evil, it would not have been adopted by your grandmother Olga, who was wiser than all other men." Vladimir then inquired where they should all accept baptism, and they replied that the decision rested with him.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/a.k.harrington/christin.html

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« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2011, 01:08:25 AM »

A Ecumenical series of local councils (meeting in Ecumenical Council was impossible for an illegal organization).
Which organization is that?

Matters not, e.g. during Vatican II the supreme pontiff died, and the council was automatically suspended, as it could not meet until another "head of the college" was elected.
Yes, and? The Pope and the Bishops make up the Magisterium.

Like he did with the IC and the Assumption.
Which were already long believed before they were defined. All he did was dogmatically define existing beliefs.

Lumen Gentium makes it quite clear, and emphasizes the point, that he was not bound to consult any bishop.  The President and his cabinet etc. make up the Executive Branch of the US government, but all but the VP serve at the pleasure of the President, who can fire any of them at will.  Not so in the Prime Minister parlamentary system.

So those "sui juris" primates are doing penance, generation after generation?
How do you figure that receiving a palium is doing penance? I would find it quite edifying to receive a palium from the Holy Father. Heck, if I could have the Holy Father bless my Rosary or a Crucifix I would be overjoyed.

It was a necessary modification because the primates of the autocephalous Churches all selected their primates from within their synod, with accountability only to the Orthodox Faith and no superior to advise and consent.
Yes, but when the Primates were being elected from within their synod was it not assumed by the Western Church that they were still in full communion with it? It seems quite reasonable to me that after the breach had occurred and when some Eastern Christians desired to come back into Full Communion with Rome that things would not be exactly the same. Before the schism, loyalty was assumed, but now it has to be demonstrated since it became obvious it was an issue.

Are you asking about Pope Vigilius?  The Fifth Ecumenical Council was a Council.

As for other instances, it depends on the circumstances.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem wasn't deposed for heresy, and wasn't excommunicated (actually, deposition takes the place of excommunication, which takes place only if he persists in heresy, if that is what he was deposed for).  And since you need at least 12 bishops to depose any bishop, a council would always be required.
When and where was that decided?
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« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2011, 08:03:38 PM »

The following is the governing principle for finding the true Church:  the one holy catholic and apostolic Church is present wherever the Eucharist is celebrated, and the Orthodox faith professed under the presidency of a bishop in apostolic succession.

Now all that is necessary is a definition of the different propositions found within this patristic principle.  Cheesy

That wasn't an actual defense of any one particular communion, was it?
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« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2011, 08:12:25 PM »

Speaking of our Indian brothers, we Oriental Orthodox have elephants, and not just in zoos:





LOL!

Awesome.  Grin
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