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Author Topic: Which Is the True Church? Game.  (Read 27405 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« on: January 21, 2011, 10:16:30 PM »

RULES OF THE GAME

Two point for each post which defends a person's Church WITHOUT demeaning or insulting anyone else's.

Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

Minus two points for every post which insults another person for any reason (including their opinion).

Minus two points for every post which insults another person's Church.

At the end of February 2011, the person with the most points wins.

PRIZE: $50 Amazon.com voucher
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:28:08 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 11:43:49 PM »

The following is the governing principle for finding the true Church:  the one holy catholic and apostolic Church is present wherever the Eucharist is celebrated, and the Orthodox faith professed under the presidency of a bishop in apostolic succession.

Now all that is necessary is a definition of the different propositions found within this patristic principle.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:49:30 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 06:00:53 AM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 10:51:17 AM »

The episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church confesses the Orthodox Creed as the Fathers set their seal upon it in Ecumenical Council, and wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid, and has been since the time of the ascension, as in every generation from the Apostles until now, there are those whose writings reveal that they would be given communion by a bishop in the diptychs of the Orthodox Church of today.
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 11:57:06 AM »

So far its even. Remember, if you quote someone else's post in yours and respond without insulting them, you block them from getting 5 points.
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 12:09:19 PM »

So far its even. Remember, if you quote someone else's post in yours and respond without insulting them, you block them from getting 5 points.

Ha! Ha! Wasn't that the idea behind MAD (Mutally Assured Destruction)?
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 12:16:54 PM »

So far its even. Remember, if you quote someone else's post in yours and respond without insulting them, you block them from getting 5 points.

Ha! Ha! Wasn't that the idea behind MAD (Mutally Assured Destruction)?
LOL! Not really.
MAD required the use of threat. This is an even more sinister social experiment than MAD since threat cannot be used. I still think we can come up with the definitive answer of which is the True Church in this thread, but it has to be done without threat or insult or injury. We could up the stakes and say that everyone has to convert to the winner's Chuch if you like. Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 12:22:52 PM »

So far its even. Remember, if you quote someone else's post in yours and respond without insulting them, you block them from getting 5 points.

Ha! Ha! Wasn't that the idea behind MAD (Mutally Assured Destruction)?
LOL! Not really.
MAD required the use of threat. This is an even more sinister social experiment than MAD since threat cannot be used. I still think we can come up with the definitive answer of which is the True Church in this thread, but it has to be done without threat or insult or injury. We could up the stakes and say that everyone has to convert to the winner's Chuch if you like. Cheesy
That contest judges will not be this

but this
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 12:29:05 PM »

That contest judges will not be this
but this

True. But for the purposes of this thread, the rules are laid out in the OP and there's a $50 gift certificate at stake. There is no resitriction on any other thread, but it would be interesting to see what happens on this one and how people operate within the confines of diplomacy.
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 12:37:01 PM »

Abort, abort! Disregard this post!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:37:19 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 12:38:01 PM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:38:30 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 12:56:28 PM »

So far its even. Remember, if you quote someone else's post in yours and respond without insulting them, you block them from getting 5 points.

Ha! Ha! Wasn't that the idea behind MAD (Mutally Assured Destruction)?
LOL! Not really.
MAD required the use of threat. This is an even more sinister social experiment than MAD since threat cannot be used. I still think we can come up with the definitive answer of which is the True Church in this thread, but it has to be done without threat or insult or injury. We could up the stakes and say that everyone has to convert to the winner's Chuch if you like. Cheesy
That contest judges will not be this

but this


At least you left out J-Lo and Steven Tyler!
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 01:04:48 PM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w


Of course not Peter himself, but his faith. But not just true faith, Peter's faith.


Pope St Leo I (400-461 AD)
Sermon III.
On His Birthday, III:  Delivered on the Anniversary of his Elevation to the Pontificate.
Quote
...

II.  From Christ and through S. Peter the priesthood is handed on in perpetuity

Although, therefore, dearly beloved, we be found both weak and slothful in fulfilling the duties of our office, because, whatever devoted and vigorous action we desire to do, we are hindered by the frailty of our very condition; yet having the unceasing propitiation of the Almighty and perpetual Priest, who being like us and yet equal with the Father, brought down His Godhead even to things human, and raised His Manhood even to things Divine, we worthily and piously rejoice over His dispensation, whereby, though He has delegated the care of His sheep to many shepherds, yet He has not Himself abandoned the guardianship of His beloved flock.  And from His overruling and eternal protection we have received the support of the Apostles’ aid also, which assuredly does not cease from its operation:  and the strength of the foundation, on which the whole superstructure of the Church is reared, is not weakened by the weight of the temple that rests upon it.  For the solidity of that faith which was praised in the chief of the Apostles is perpetual:  and as that remains which Peter believed in Christ, so that remains which Christ instituted in Peter. For when, as has been read in the Gospel lesson, the Lord had asked the disciples whom they believed Him to be amid the various opinions that were held, and the blessed Peter had replied, saying, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” the Lord says, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and flood hath not revealed it to thee, but My Father, which is in heaven.  And I say to thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.  And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

III.  S. Peter’s work is still carried out by his successors.

The dispensation of Truth therefore abides, and the blessed Peter persevering in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he undertook.  For he was ordained before the rest in such a way that from his being called the Rock, from his being pronounced the Foundation, from his being constituted the Doorkeeper of the kingdom of heaven, from his being set as the Umpire to bind and to loose, whose judgments shall retain their validity in heaven, from all these mystical titles we might know the nature of his association with Christ.  And still to-day he more fully and effectually performs what is entrusted to him, and carries out every part of his duty and charge in Him and with Him, through Whom he has been glorified.  And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See.  For this, dearly-beloved, was gained by that confession, which, inspired in the Apostle’s heart by God the Father, transcended all the uncertainty of human opinions, and was endued with the firmness of a rock, which no assaults could shake.  For throughout the Church Peter daily says, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and every tongue which confesses the Lord, accepts the instruction his voice conveys.  This Faith conquers the devil, and breaks the bonds of his prisoners.  It uproots us from this earth and plants us in heaven, and the gates of Hades cannot prevail against it.  For with such solidity is it endued by God that the depravity of heretics cannot mar it nor the unbelief of the heathen overcome it.

...

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.

He continues:
Quote
IV.  This festival then is in S. Peter’s honour, and the progress of his flock redounds to his glory.

And so, dearly beloved, with reasonable obedience we celebrate to-day’s festival by such methods, that in my humble person he may be recognized and honoured, in whom abides the care of all the shepherds, together with the charge of the sheep commended to him, and whose dignity is not abated even in so unworthy an heir.  And hence the presence of my venerable brothers and fellow-priests, so much desired and valued by me, will be the more sacred and precious, if they will transfer the chief honour of this service in which they have deigned to take part to him whom they know to be not only the patron of this see, but also the primate of all bishops.  When therefore we utter our exhortations in your ears, holy brethren, believe that he is speaking whose representative we are:  because it is his warning that we give, nothing else but his teaching that we preach, beseeching you to “gird up the loins of your mind,” and lead a chaste and sober life in the fear of God, and not to let your mind forget his supremacy and consent to the lusts of the flesh.  Short and fleeting are the joys of this world’s pleasures which endeavour to turn aside from the path of life those who are called to eternity.  The faithful and religious spirit, therefore, must desire the things which are heavenly, and being eager for the Divine promises, lift itself to the love of the incorruptible Good and the hope of the true Light.  But be sure, dearly-beloved, that your labour, whereby you resist vices and fight against carnal desires, is pleasing and precious in God’s sight, and in God’s mercy will profit not only yourselves but me also, because the zealous pastor makes his boast of the progress of the Lord’s flock.  “For ye are my crown and joy,” as the Apostle says; if your faith, which from the beginning of the Gospel has been preached in all the world has continued in love and holiness.  For though the whole Church, which is in all the world, ought to abound in all virtues, yet you especially, above all people, it becomes to excel in deeds of piety, because founded as you are on the very citadel of the Apostolic Rock, not only has our Lord Jesus Christ redeemed you in common with all men, but the blessed Apostle Peter has instructed you far beyond all men.  Through the same Christ our Lord.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf212.ii.v.iii.html?highlight=peter,faith#highlight
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 01:19:37 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 01:52:20 PM »

In defense of Orthodox Christianity I offer these ancient words which, in my state of human fraility and weakness, I would be loathe to attempt to improve upon:


PROCLAMATION OF THE SYNODICON OF ORTHODOXY:

        As the Prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the
Church has received, as the Teachers have dogmatized, as the Universe
has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as false-
hood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ has
awarded, let us declare, let us assert, let us preach in like manner
Christ our true God and honor His Saints in words, in writings in
thoughts, in deeds, in churches, in holy icons -- worshiping Him as
God and Lord and honoring them as His true servants

                      THE NICEAN CREED:

I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,
AND ALL THINGS VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE. AND IN ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST,
THE SON OF GOD, THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN, BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER BEFORE ALL
AGES. LIGHT OF LIGHT, TRUE GOD OF TRUE GOD; BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE; OF ONE
ESSENCE WITH THE FATHER, BY WHOM ALL THINGS WERE MADE. WHO FOR US MEN,
AND FOR OUR SALVATION, CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND WAS INCARNATE OF THE
HOLY SPIRIT AND THE VIRGIN MARY, AND BECAME MAN. AND WAS CRUCIFIED FOR
US UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, AND SUFFERED AND WAS BURIED. AND THE THIRD
DAY HE ROSE, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, AND ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN,
AND SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER; AND HE SHALL COME AGAIN WITH
GLORY TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD; WHOSE KINGDOM SHALL HAVE NO
END. AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE LORD,THE GIVER OF LIFE, WHO PROCEEDS
FROM THE FATHER; WHO WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON TOGETHER IS
WORSHIPPED AND GLORIFIED; WHO SPOKE BY THE PROPHETS. IN ONE HOLY,
CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I ACKNOWLEDGE ONE BAPTISM FOR THE
REMISSION FO SINS. I LOOK FOR THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND THE
LIFE OF THE WORLD TO COME.  AMEN.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 02:02:34 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?

Like all true answers, it depends.  Grin

The primacy of Rome, itself, was mostly only referenced by exception.

Second Ecumenical council
Quote
Canon III.

The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome.

You can see that, where the council was attempting to elevate Constantinople, it shows that Rome (specifically the Bishop), had primacy.


However, the jurisdiction is more lightly referenced.

(343 AD) The Council of Sardica (taking place in modern Bulgaria)
Quote
Canon III.

(Greek.)
Bishop Hosius said:  This also it is necessary to add,—that no bishop pass from his own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless indeed he be called by his brethren, that we seem not to close the gates of charity. And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow-bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province. But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before.

(Latin.)
Bishop Hosius said:  This also it is necessary to add,—that bishops shall not pass from their own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless perchance upon invitation from their brethren, that we seem not to close the door of charity.
But if in any province a bishop have a matter in dispute against his brother bishop, one of the two shall not call in as judge a bishop from another province.
But if judgment have gone against a bishop in any cause, and he think that he has a good case, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it be your pleasure, honour the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, and let those who tried the case write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, and if he shall judge that the case should be retried, let that be done, and let him appoint judges; but if he shall find that the case is of such a sort that the former decision need not be disturbed, what he has decreed shall be confirmed.  Is this the pleasure of all?  The synod answered, It is our pleasure.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iii.iv.iii.html

Canon IV.

(Greek.)
Bishop Gaudentius said:  If it seems good to you, it is necessary to add to this decision full of sincere charity which thou hast pronounced, that390 if any bishop be deposed by the sentence of these neighbouring bishops, and assert that he has fresh matter in defence, a new bishop be not settled in his see, unless the bishop of Rome judge and render a decision as to this.

(Latin.)
Bishop Gaudentius said:  It ought to be added, if it be your pleasure, to this sentence full of sanctity which thou hast pronounced, that—when any bishop has been deposed by the judgment of those bishops who have sees in neighbouring places, and he [the bishop deposed] shall announce that his case is to be examined in the city of Rome—that no other bishop shall in any wise be ordained to his see, after the appeal of him who is apparently deposed, unless the case shall have been determined in the judgment of the Roman bishop.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iii.iv.iv.html

Canon V.

(Greek.)
Bishop Hosius said:  Decreed, that if any bishop is accused, and the bishops of the same region assemble and depose him from his office, and he appealing, so to speak, takes refuge with the most blessed bishop of the Roman church, and he be willing to give him a hearing, and think it right to renew the examination of his case, let him be pleased to write to those fellow-bishops who are nearest the province that they may examine the particulars with care and accuracy and give their votes on the matter in accordance with the word of truth.  And if any one require that his case be heard yet again, and at his request it seem good to move the bishop of Rome to send presbyters a latere, let it be in the power of that bishop, according as he judges it to be good and decides it to be right—that some be sent to be judges with the bishops and invested with his authority by whom they were sent.  And be this also ordained.  But if he think that the bishops are sufficient for the examination and decision of the matter let him do what shall seem good in his most prudent judgment.
The bishops answered:  What has been said is approved.

(Latin.)
Bishop Hosius said:  Further decreed, that if a bishop is accused, and the bishops of that region assemble and depose him from his office, if he who has been deposed shall appeal and take refuge with the bishop of the Roman church and wishes to be given a hearing, if he think it right that the trial or examination of his case be renewed, let him be pleased to write to those bishops who are in an adjacent and neighbouring province, that they may diligently inquire into all the particulars and decide according to the word of truth.  But if he who asks to have his case reheard, shall by his entreaty move the Bishop of Rome to send a presbyter a latere it shall be in the power of that bishop to do what he shall resolve and determine upon; and if he shall decide that some be sent, who shall be present and be judges with the bishops invested with his authority by whom they were appointed, it shall be as he shall choose.  But if he believe that the bishops suffice to give a final decision, he shall do what he shall determine upon in his most wise judgment.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iii.iv.v.html

This council was recognized as an addition to the Council of Nicea (1st EC) by Rome, but not by Constantinople. at the time of the Council of Carthage 419.

Seen as accepted by Pope Julius (352) in his letter to the Eusebians:
Quote
§. 35.

25. Give us notice therefore of this, dearly beloved, that we may write both to them, and to the Bishops who will have again to assemble, so that the guilty may be condemned in the presence of all, and confusion no longer prevail in the Churches. What has already taken place is enough: it is enough surely that Bishops have been sentenced to banishment {56} in the presence of Bishops; of which it behoves me not to speak at length, lest I appear to press too heavily on those who were present on those occasions. But if one must speak the truth, matters ought not to have proceeded so far; their private feelings [Note 50] ought not to have been suffered to reach their present pitch. Let us grant the "removal," as you write, of Athanasius and Marcellus, from their own places, yet what must one say of the case of the other Bishops and Presbyters who, as I said before, came hither from various parts, and who complained that they also had been forced away, and had suffered the like injuries? O dearly beloved, the decisions of the Church are no longer according to the Gospel, but tend only to banishment and death [Note 51]. Supposing, as you assert, that some offence rested upon those persons, the case ought to have been conducted against them, not after this manner, but according to the Canon of the Church [Note 52]. Word should have been written of it to us all [Note Q], that so a just sentence might proceed from all. For the sufferers were Bishops, and Churches of no ordinary note, but those which the Apostles themselves had governed in their own persons [Note R].

26. And why was nothing said to us concerning the Church of the Alexandrians in particular? Are you ignorant that the custom has been for word to be written first to us, and then for a just sentence to be past from this place [Rome]? If then any such suspicion rested upon the Bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to {57} obtain our concurrence in their decisions, though we never condemned him. Not so have the Constitutions [Note T] of Paul, not so have the traditions of the Fathers directed; this is another form of procedure, a novel practice. I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter [Note U], that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.
Bishops are forced away from their sees and driven into banishment, while others from different quarters are appointed in their place; others are treacherously assailed, so that the people have to grieve for those who are forcibly taken from them, while, as to those who are sent in their room, they are obliged to give over seeking the man whom they desire, and to receive those they do not.

27. I ask [Note 53] of you, that such things may no longer be, but that you will denounce in writing those persons who attempt them; so that the Churches may no longer be afflicted thus, nor any Bishop or Presbyter be treated with insult, nor any one be compelled to act contrary to his judgment, as they have represented to us, lest we become a laughing-stock among the heathen, and above all, lest we excite the wrath of God against us. For every one of us shall give account in the Day of judgment of the things which he has done in this life. May we all be possessed with the mind of God! so that the Churches may recover their own Bishops, and rejoice evermore in Jesus Christ our Lord; through Whom to the Father be glory, for ever and ever. Amen.
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/historical/tract2-2.html

But that Sardica wasn't seen as an amendment to Nicea.

Quote
And when this had been read, Augustine, the bishop of the Church of Hippo of the province of Numidia, said:  We promise that this shall be observed by us, provided that upon more careful examination it be found to be of the Council of Nice.  Aurelius the bishop said.  If this also is pleasing to the charity of you all, give it the confirmation of your vote.  The whole Council said:  Everything that has been ordained by the Nicene Council pleases us all.  Jocundus, the bishop of the Church of Suffitula, legate of the province of Byzacena, said:  What was decreed by the Nicene Council cannot in any particular be violated.
Faustinus the bishop, legate of the Roman Church, said:  So far as has developed by the confession of your holiness as well as of the holy Alypius, and of our brother Jocundus, I believe that some of the points have been made weak and others confirmed, which should not be the case, since even the very canons themselves have been brought into question.  Therefore, that there may be harmony between us and your blessedness, let your holiness deign to refer the matter to the holy and venerable bishop of the Roman Church, that he may be able to consider whether what St. Augustine vouchsafed to enact, should be conceded or not, I mean in the matter of appeals of the inferior grade.  If therefore there still is doubt, on this head it is right that the bishop of the most blessed see be informed, if this can be found in the canons which have been approved.

Ancient Epitome.
Since the written decrees of the Nicene Council have not been found, let the Roman bishop deign to write to the bishop of Constantinople and to him of Alexandria, and let us know what he receives from them.

Aurelius the bishop said:  As we have suggested to your charity, pray allow the copies of the statutes of the Nicene Council to be read and inserted in the acts, as well as those things what have been most healthfully defined in this city by our predecessors, according to the rule of that council, and those which now have been ordained by us.  And the whole council said:  The copies of the Creed, and the statutes of the Nicene Synod which formerly were brought to our council through Cæcilean of blessed memory, the predecessor of your holiness (who was present at it), as well as the copies of the decrees made by the Fathers in this city following them, or which now we have decreed by our common consultation, shall remain inserted in these ecclesiastical acts, so that (as has been already said) your blessedness may vouchsafe to write to those most venerable men of the Church of Antioch, and of that of Alexandria, and also of that of Constantinople, that they would send most accurate copies of the decrees of the Council of Nice under the authentification of their signatures, by which, the truth of the matter having become evident, those chapters which in the commonitory our brother who is present, and fellow-bishop Faustinus, as well as our fellow-presbyters Philip and Asellus brought with them, if they be found therein, may be confirmed by us; or if they be not found, we will hold a synod and consider the matter further.  Daniel the notary read the profession of faith of the Council of Nice and its statutes to the African Council.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.i.html

Either by refusal for the addition or by not specifically requesting Sardica, the additions were not used during this council.

However, that doesn't mean the Council of Sardica wasn't, at the very least later, accepted as Ecumenical in the East. The Fifth-Sixth Council (Quintisext or Trullo), accepted as Ecumenical additions to the Sixth Ecumenical Council, stated that the Council of Sardica is, in fact, Ecumenical.

Quote
Canon II.

It has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders.  And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement.  But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form.  We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles.  But we set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers, that is, by the 318 holy God-bearing Fathers assembled at Nice, and those at Ancyra, further those at Neocæsarea and likewise those at Gangra, and besides, those at Antioch in Syria:  those too at Laodicea in Phrygia:  and likewise the 150 who assembled in this heaven-protected royal city:  and the 200 who assembled the first time in the metropolis of the Ephesians, and the 630 holy and blessed Fathers at Chalcedon.  In like manner those of Sardica, and those of Carthage:  those also who again assembled in this heaven-protected royal city under its bishop Nectarius and Theophilus Archbishop of Alexandria.  Likewise too the Canons [i.e. the decretal letters] of Dionysius, formerly Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria; and of Peter, Archbishop of Alexandria and Martyr; of Gregory the Wonder-worker, Bishop of Neocæsarea; of Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Basil, Archbishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia; of Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa; of Gregory Theologus; of Amphilochius of Iconium; of Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Theophilus, Archbishop of the same great city of Alexandria; of Cyril, Archbishop of the same Alexandria; of Gennadius, Patriarch of this heaven-protected royal city.  Moreover the Canon set forth by Cyprian, Archbishop of the country of the Africans and Martyr, and by the Synod under him, which has been kept only in the country of the aforesaid Bishops, according to the custom delivered down to them.  And that no one be allowed to transgress or disregard the aforesaid canons, or to receive others beside them, supposititiously set forth by certain who have attempted to make a traffic of the truth.  But should any one be convicted of innovating upon, or attempting to overturn, any of the afore-mentioned canons, he shall be subject to receive the penalty which that canon imposes, and to be cured by it of his transgression.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiv.iii.ii.html
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 02:12:52 PM »

In defense of Orthodox Christianity I offer these ancient words which, in my state of human fraility and weakness, I would be loathe to attempt to improve upon:


PROCLAMATION OF THE SYNODICON OF ORTHODOXY:

        As the Prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the
Church has received, as the Teachers have dogmatized, as the Universe
has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as false-
hood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ has
awarded, let us declare, let us assert, let us preach in like manner
Christ our true God and honor His Saints in words, in writings in
thoughts, in deeds, in churches, in holy icons -- worshiping Him as
God and Lord and honoring them as His true servants

                      THE NICEAN CREED:

I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,
AND ALL THINGS VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE. AND IN ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST,
THE SON OF GOD, THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN, BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER BEFORE ALL
AGES. LIGHT OF LIGHT, TRUE GOD OF TRUE GOD; BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE; OF ONE
ESSENCE WITH THE FATHER, BY WHOM ALL THINGS WERE MADE. WHO FOR US MEN,
AND FOR OUR SALVATION, CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND WAS INCARNATE OF THE
HOLY SPIRIT AND THE VIRGIN MARY, AND BECAME MAN. AND WAS CRUCIFIED FOR
US UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, AND SUFFERED AND WAS BURIED. AND THE THIRD
DAY HE ROSE, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, AND ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN,
AND SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER; AND HE SHALL COME AGAIN WITH
GLORY TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD; WHOSE KINGDOM SHALL HAVE NO
END. AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE LORD,THE GIVER OF LIFE, WHO PROCEEDS
FROM THE FATHER; WHO WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON TOGETHER IS
WORSHIPPED AND GLORIFIED; WHO SPOKE BY THE PROPHETS. IN ONE HOLY,
CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I ACKNOWLEDGE ONE BAPTISM FOR THE
REMISSION FO SINS. I LOOK FOR THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND THE
LIFE OF THE WORLD TO COME.  AMEN.


In defense of the Latin Church, they would claim the West as holding that same Creed. They would hold the additions not a change in the faith, but a clarification in defense of that faith to defend against heresies (e.g. Arianism).

The West doesn't declare either version heretical to the faith, except the imbecile post-Legate who excommunicated a Patriarch.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2011, 02:15:57 PM »

the imbecile post-Legate who excommunicated a Patriarch.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2011, 02:47:26 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?

Like all true answers, it depends.  Grin

The primacy of Rome, itself, was mostly only referenced by exception.

Second Ecumenical council
Quote
Canon III.

The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome.

You can see that, where the council was attempting to elevate Constantinople, it shows that Rome (specifically the Bishop), had primacy.


However, the jurisdiction is more lightly referenced.

(343 AD) The Council of Sardica (taking place in modern Bulgaria)
Quote
3. And it is necessary to add this too, that no Bishop may cross from his own diocese or province into another province in which there happen to be Bishops, unless he be called or invited by some of the brethren therein, lest we seem to be shutting the gates of love. And this likewise must be provided, so that, if anyone among the Bishops in a province should be at variance with a brother and fellow Bishop, he shall not call upon any other one of the Bishops from another province to support his cause. If, therefore, any of the Bishops in any dispute seem to be condemned, and considers himself not to be at fault, but that it would be a good thing to have the case reopened, if it seem right to you, let us honor the memory to the love of St. Peter the Apostle, and let the case be appealed from the judges to Julius the Bishop of Rome, so that through the Bishops who are neighbors to the province in question a new court may be held and he be granted new examiners. But if it cannot be established that such is the case as to merit a new trial, let what has once been tried and decided be re-examined, but, on the contrary, let whatever really is so be accepted as true.

(Ap. cc. XXXV; cc. Ill, VIII, c. XX of the 6th; cc. XIII, XXII, cc. XI, XII.).


Interpretation.

Not only are bishops prohibited from leaving a smaller province and taking a larger one, but they are not even permitted to go from their province to the province of another bishop in order to do any episcopal business, without being invited by them to do so, according to the present Canon. Nevertheless, the Canon permits them to do this if they go by invitation, in order not to preclude the love of bishops and their brotherli-ness for one another. If, on the other hand, any two bishops have a dispute with each other, they ought not to request bishops from a foreign province to try them as judges, but let their case be tried by those bishops who belong to the same province as they do. But if one of them is condemned by the bishops of his own province, yet, nevertheless, considers that he is not in the wrong and he has a good case and can justify himself if he can get his case reviewed by others, in such an event, I say, we ought as a matter of love to honor the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, or, in other words, the bishops who have tried the case in question ought to write to the throne of Rome (where Julius was then acting as bishop) that the bishop whom they tried does not like their decision, in order that the bishop of Rome, if he deem the case to merit a review, may decree that it be tried by the bishops of nearby provinces; but if he deem that it does not need to be retried, the preceding decision of the bishops must remain effective and valid. Note that this Canon refers not to provinces that are not subject to the Pope, but only to those that are subject to him, according to Zonaras.i See also Ap. c. XXXV.

4. If any Bishop be deposed from office by these Bishops at a judicial trial who have their seats in neighboring territory, and demands for himself a new opportunity to defend himself against the charges, let his seat not be filled by another incumbent, until the Bishop of the Romans has been informed of the facts and has issued a ruling concerning him.

(c. XVI of the lst-&-2nd; c. XCVI of Carthage.).


Interpretation.

This Canon too is consistent with the one above, in that it says that if any bishop be deposed from office by bishops of nearby and neighboring provinces, but claims that he can justify himself before another tribunal, let another bishop not be appointed by ordination to the throne of the one deposed, until the Pope, after being informed about the case, has had a chance to decide whether the verdict ought to stand or be set aside. Note, however, that the present Canon too is one relating to provinces subject to the Pope, and has nothing to do with provinces not subject to him, according to the same Zonaras. See Ap. c. LXXIV, and c. XVI of the lst-&-2nd, and the Prolegomena to the present Council.

5. It has pleased this Council to decree that if any Bishop be indicted, and the Bishops of the same diocese remove him from his rank, and, by way of appeal, he has recourse to the most blessed Bishop of the Church of the Romans, and the latter expresses a desire to hear the matter through and deems that it is right and just for the trial of the case to be reopened, let him write to these Bishops and request those who are close to the province in question to make a searching investigation of the points in the case with due diligence and accuracy, and in accordance with faith in the truth pronounce a decision regarding it. But if any person demands again to have his case heard and sees fit to request that it be tried by the Bishop of the Romans, let the latter send Presbyters from his ownfiank, in order that he may be in the authority of the Bishop himself. If he rules that it is right and decides that judges ought to be sent to try the case together with the Bishops and to exercise authority derived from the one who sent them, then let this too be done. But if he deems the verdict and decision in regard to the Bishop’s case to be sufficient, let him do whatsoever may seem best to his most prudent sense of discretion.


Interpetation.

The present Canon decrees much the same things as the one above, in that it says that if any bishop who has been charged with crimes be deposed from office by the bishops of the province to which he belongs, and takes an appeal to the Pope, then the Pope, if of opinion that the case of such a person merits a review, must write to the bishops of foreign provinces bordering on that diocese, and have them conduct a diligent and careful investigation of the case, and arrive at a true and just decision concerning. If, however, the same bishop, after being condemned also by such bishops of neighboring dioceses, appeals a second time his case to the pope and asks the latter to send suitable persons on his part (or side) having authority derived from him and the right to act in his stead, in order to try (for a third time) this case together with the bishops, either those, that is to say, of the province in question, or others of nearby pro-yinces — jf? I say, he follows this course, then it is for the Pope to exercise his authority and wise prudence either by sending legates of his own to try it who are qualified to do so, or to rule that the judgment and decision against the bishop previously arrived at by the said bishops is sufficient.3 Note that the present Canon too relates only to persons that are subject to the Pope of Rome, according to Zonaras, and not to persons that are not subject to his authority.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_local_rudder.htm#_Toc72635084
Quote
§. 35.

25. Give us notice therefore of this, dearly beloved, that we may write both to them, and to the Bishops who will have again to assemble, so that the guilty may be condemned in the presence of all, and confusion no longer prevail in the Churches. What has already taken place is enough: it is enough surely that Bishops have been sentenced to banishment {56} in the presence of Bishops; of which it behoves me not to speak at length, lest I appear to press too heavily on those who were present on those occasions. But if one must speak the truth, matters ought not to have proceeded so far; their private feelings [Note 50] ought not to have been suffered to reach their present pitch. Let us grant the "removal," as you write, of Athanasius and Marcellus, from their own places, yet what must one say of the case of the other Bishops and Presbyters who, as I said before, came hither from various parts, and who complained that they also had been forced away, and had suffered the like injuries? O dearly beloved, the decisions of the Church are no longer according to the Gospel, but tend only to banishment and death [Note 51]. Supposing, as you assert, that some offence rested upon those persons, the case ought to have been conducted against them, not after this manner, but according to the Canon of the Church [Note 52]. Word should have been written of it to us all [Note Q], that so a just sentence might proceed from all. For the sufferers were Bishops, and Churches of no ordinary note, but those which the Apostles themselves had governed in their own persons [Note R].

26. And why was nothing said to us concerning the Church of the Alexandrians in particular? Are you ignorant that the custom has been for word to be written first to us, and then for a just sentence to be past from this place [Rome]? If then any such suspicion rested upon the Bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to {57} obtain our concurrence in their decisions, though we never condemned him. Not so have the Constitutions [Note T] of Paul, not so have the traditions of the Fathers directed; this is another form of procedure, a novel practice. I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter [Note U], that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.
Bishops are forced away from their sees and driven into banishment, while others from different quarters are appointed in their place; others are treacherously assailed, so that the people have to grieve for those who are forcibly taken from them, while, as to those who are sent in their room, they are obliged to give over seeking the man whom they desire, and to receive those they do not.

27. I ask [Note 53] of you, that such things may no longer be, but that you will denounce in writing those persons who attempt them; so that the Churches may no longer be afflicted thus, nor any Bishop or Presbyter be treated with insult, nor any one be compelled to act contrary to his judgment, as they have represented to us, lest we become a laughing-stock among the heathen, and above all, lest we excite the wrath of God against us. For every one of us shall give account in the Day of judgment of the things which he has done in this life. May we all be possessed with the mind of God! so that the Churches may recover their own Bishops, and rejoice evermore in Jesus Christ our Lord; through Whom to the Father be glory, for ever and ever. Amen.
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/historical/tract2-2.html

But that Sardica wasn't seen as an amendment to Nicea.

Quote
And when this had been read, Augustine, the bishop of the Church of Hippo of the province of Numidia, said:  We promise that this shall be observed by us, provided that upon more careful examination it be found to be of the Council of Nice.  Aurelius the bishop said.  If this also is pleasing to the charity of you all, give it the confirmation of your vote.  The whole Council said:  Everything that has been ordained by the Nicene Council pleases us all.  Jocundus, the bishop of the Church of Suffitula, legate of the province of Byzacena, said:  What was decreed by the Nicene Council cannot in any particular be violated.
Faustinus the bishop, legate of the Roman Church, said:  So far as has developed by the confession of your holiness as well as of the holy Alypius, and of our brother Jocundus, I believe that some of the points have been made weak and others confirmed, which should not be the case, since even the very canons themselves have been brought into question.  Therefore, that there may be harmony between us and your blessedness, let your holiness deign to refer the matter to the holy and venerable bishop of the Roman Church, that he may be able to consider whether what St. Augustine vouchsafed to enact, should be conceded or not, I mean in the matter of appeals of the inferior grade.  If therefore there still is doubt, on this head it is right that the bishop of the most blessed see be informed, if this can be found in the canons which have been approved.

Ancient Epitome.
Since the written decrees of the Nicene Council have not been found, let the Roman bishop deign to write to the bishop of Constantinople and to him of Alexandria, and let us know what he receives from them.

Aurelius the bishop said:  As we have suggested to your charity, pray allow the copies of the statutes of the Nicene Council to be read and inserted in the acts, as well as those things what have been most healthfully defined in this city by our predecessors, according to the rule of that council, and those which now have been ordained by us.  And the whole council said:  The copies of the Creed, and the statutes of the Nicene Synod which formerly were brought to our council through Cæcilean of blessed memory, the predecessor of your holiness (who was present at it), as well as the copies of the decrees made by the Fathers in this city following them, or which now we have decreed by our common consultation, shall remain inserted in these ecclesiastical acts, so that (as has been already said) your blessedness may vouchsafe to write to those most venerable men of the Church of Antioch, and of that of Alexandria, and also of that of Constantinople, that they would send most accurate copies of the decrees of the Council of Nice under the authentification of their signatures, by which, the truth of the matter having become evident, those chapters which in the commonitory our brother who is present, and fellow-bishop Faustinus, as well as our fellow-presbyters Philip and Asellus brought with them, if they be found therein, may be confirmed by us; or if they be not found, we will hold a synod and consider the matter further.  Daniel the notary read the profession of faith of the Council of Nice and its statutes to the African Council.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.i.html

Either by refusal for the addition or by not specifically requesting Sardica, the additions were not used during this council.

However, that doesn't mean the Council of Sardica wasn't, at the very least later, accepted as Ecumenical in the East. The Fifth-Sixth Council (Quintisext or Trullo), accepted as Ecumenical additions to the Sixth Ecumenical Council, stated that the Council of Sardica is, in fact, Ecumenical.

Quote
Canon II.

It has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders.  And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement.  But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form.  We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles.  But we set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers, that is, by the 318 holy God-bearing Fathers assembled at Nice, and those at Ancyra, further those at Neocæsarea and likewise those at Gangra, and besides, those at Antioch in Syria:  those too at Laodicea in Phrygia:  and likewise the 150 who assembled in this heaven-protected royal city:  and the 200 who assembled the first time in the metropolis of the Ephesians, and the 630 holy and blessed Fathers at Chalcedon.  In like manner those of Sardica, and those of Carthage:  those also who again assembled in this heaven-protected royal city under its bishop Nectarius and Theophilus Archbishop of Alexandria.  Likewise too the Canons [i.e. the decretal letters] of Dionysius, formerly Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria; and of Peter, Archbishop of Alexandria and Martyr; of Gregory the Wonder-worker, Bishop of Neocæsarea; of Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Basil, Archbishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia; of Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa; of Gregory Theologus; of Amphilochius of Iconium; of Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Theophilus, Archbishop of the same great city of Alexandria; of Cyril, Archbishop of the same Alexandria; of Gennadius, Patriarch of this heaven-protected royal city.  Moreover the Canon set forth by Cyprian, Archbishop of the country of the Africans and Martyr, and by the Synod under him, which has been kept only in the country of the aforesaid Bishops, according to the custom delivered down to them.  And that no one be allowed to transgress or disregard the aforesaid canons, or to receive others beside them, supposititiously set forth by certain who have attempted to make a traffic of the truth.  But should any one be convicted of innovating upon, or attempting to overturn, any of the afore-mentioned canons, he shall be subject to receive the penalty which that canon imposes, and to be cured by it of his transgression.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiv.iii.ii.html

Quote
Concerning the Regional Council of Sardica.


Prolegomena.

The holy and regional Council which was assembled in the city of Sardica, Illyria, convened A.D. 347 in the reign of Constantius and Con-stans, who were full brothers and who were both of them emperors, the one of whom reigned in Constantinople, and the other in Rome, eleven years after the death of their father Constantine the Great. It was attended by three hundred Fathers from the West, and by seventy-six from the East, according to Socrates (Book II, ch. 20) and Sozomen (Book III, ch. 12). Of these the exarchs were not only Hosius, the bishop of Cordova, Spain, a man worthy of all respect, on account of his great age and of the excessive toil he underwent, but included also Archidamos and Philoxenus, the presbyters, and the three legates of Pope Julius, acting as the latter’s personal representatives. Maximus of Jerusalem, Paul of Constantinople and Athanasius of Alexandria, though present at the Council, had been deposed from office by the Eusebians. Protogenes, the bishop of Sardica, and others were also attending this Council. But a split and division between the Fathers of the East and those of the West followed, and they failed to agree with each other. For the Easterners, being Arianists, when departing for Sardica, wrote to the Westerners not to admit to a seat in the Council St. Paul, and Athanasius the Great, Marcellus of Ancyra, and Asclepas Gazaeus, on the ground that they had been deposed from office. But the Westerners replied to them that they did not consider them to be at fault, nor to have been duly deposed, and on this account would regard them as entitled to seats and participation. But when the Easterners learned this, they turned back to Philippoupolis, and again deposed from office Athanasius, Paul, Marcellus, and Asclepas, Julius the bishop (i.e., Pope) of Rome, Hosius (the bishop) of Cordova, Protogenes (the bishop) of Sardica, and others. Being averse from perfect accord with the doctrine of coessentiality (though Socrates says that they openly anathematized it, in Book II, ch. 20), they anathematized only those who asserted three Gods, and anyone that said that Christ was not a God, or that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit were one and the same person; and anyone that said perhaps that the Son was unbegotten, or perhaps that there was a time or an age in which He was not. After the Western Fathers convoked and assembled the Council, they confirmed the Nicene Creed, without adding anything to it or removing anything from it, and proceeded to declare Athanasius, and Paul, and Marcellus, and Asclepas right and innocent, and through the emperors they contrived to have their thrones returned to them; while, on the other hand, they deposed from, office the Easterners in Philippoupolis in turn, though not all of them, but only eleven; for not all of them, were Arians, but only some of them, the others being orthodox (as the Sardican Fathers state in their letter to all the churches). That is why they also anathematized many doctrines of Arms; and their Creed was accepted as orthodox by divine Hilary. Besides all these things, they also issued the present Canons, which are necessary to the good order and constitution of the Church. They are confirmed indefinitely by c. I of the 4th and by c. I of the 7th, and are confirmed definitely by c. II of the 6th; and by reason of this confirmation they have acquired a power which is in a way ecumenical.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_local_rudder.htm#_Toc72635084

Btw, I've been to where Sardica was held.
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2011, 03:27:16 PM »

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3. And it is necessary to add this too, that no Bishop may cross from his own diocese or province into another province in which there happen to be Bishops, unless he be called or invited by some of the brethren therein, lest we seem to be shutting the gates of love. And this likewise must be provided, so that, if anyone among the Bishops in a province should be at variance with a brother and fellow Bishop, he shall not call upon any other one of the Bishops from another province to support his cause. If, therefore, any of the Bishops in any dispute seem to be condemned, and considers himself not to be at fault, but that it would be a good thing to have the case reopened, if it seem right to you, let us honor the memory to the love of St. Peter the Apostle, and let the case be appealed from the judges to Julius the Bishop of Rome, so that through the Bishops who are neighbors to the province in question a new court may be held and he be granted new examiners. But if it cannot be established that such is the case as to merit a new trial, let what has once been tried and decided be re-examined, but, on the contrary, let whatever really is so be accepted as true.

(Ap. cc. XXXV; cc. Ill, VIII, c. XX of the 6th; cc. XIII, XXII, cc. XI, XII.).


Interpretation.

Not only are bishops prohibited from leaving a smaller province and taking a larger one, but they are not even permitted to go from their province to the province of another bishop in order to do any episcopal business, without being invited by them to do so, according to the present Canon. Nevertheless, the Canon permits them to do this if they go by invitation, in order not to preclude the love of bishops and their brotherli-ness for one another. If, on the other hand, any two bishops have a dispute with each other, they ought not to request bishops from a foreign province to try them as judges, but let their case be tried by those bishops who belong to the same province as they do. But if one of them is condemned by the bishops of his own province, yet, nevertheless, considers that he is not in the wrong and he has a good case and can justify himself if he can get his case reviewed by others, in such an event, I say, we ought as a matter of love to honor the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, or, in other words, the bishops who have tried the case in question ought to write to the throne of Rome (where Julius was then acting as bishop) that the bishop whom they tried does not like their decision, in order that the bishop of Rome, if he deem the case to merit a review, may decree that it be tried by the bishops of nearby provinces; but if he deem that it does not need to be retried, the preceding decision of the bishops must remain effective and valid. Note that this Canon refers not to provinces that are not subject to the Pope, but only to those that are subject to him, according to Zonaras.i See also Ap. c. XXXV.

4. If any Bishop be deposed from office by these Bishops at a judicial trial who have their seats in neighboring territory, and demands for himself a new opportunity to defend himself against the charges, let his seat not be filled by another incumbent, until the Bishop of the Romans has been informed of the facts and has issued a ruling concerning him.

(c. XVI of the lst-&-2nd; c. XCVI of Carthage.).


Interpretation.

This Canon too is consistent with the one above, in that it says that if any bishop be deposed from office by bishops of nearby and neighboring provinces, but claims that he can justify himself before another tribunal, let another bishop not be appointed by ordination to the throne of the one deposed, until the Pope, after being informed about the case, has had a chance to decide whether the verdict ought to stand or be set aside. Note, however, that the present Canon too is one relating to provinces subject to the Pope, and has nothing to do with provinces not subject to him, according to the same Zonaras. See Ap. c. LXXIV, and c. XVI of the lst-&-2nd, and the Prolegomena to the present Council.

5. It has pleased this Council to decree that if any Bishop be indicted, and the Bishops of the same diocese remove him from his rank, and, by way of appeal, he has recourse to the most blessed Bishop of the Church of the Romans, and the latter expresses a desire to hear the matter through and deems that it is right and just for the trial of the case to be reopened, let him write to these Bishops and request those who are close to the province in question to make a searching investigation of the points in the case with due diligence and accuracy, and in accordance with faith in the truth pronounce a decision regarding it. But if any person demands again to have his case heard and sees fit to request that it be tried by the Bishop of the Romans, let the latter send Presbyters from his ownfiank, in order that he may be in the authority of the Bishop himself. If he rules that it is right and decides that judges ought to be sent to try the case together with the Bishops and to exercise authority derived from the one who sent them, then let this too be done. But if he deems the verdict and decision in regard to the Bishop’s case to be sufficient, let him do whatsoever may seem best to his most prudent sense of discretion.


Interpetation.

The present Canon decrees much the same things as the one above, in that it says that if any bishop who has been charged with crimes be deposed from office by the bishops of the province to which he belongs, and takes an appeal to the Pope, then the Pope, if of opinion that the case of such a person merits a review, must write to the bishops of foreign provinces bordering on that diocese, and have them conduct a diligent and careful investigation of the case, and arrive at a true and just decision concerning. If, however, the same bishop, after being condemned also by such bishops of neighboring dioceses, appeals a second time his case to the pope and asks the latter to send suitable persons on his part (or side) having authority derived from him and the right to act in his stead, in order to try (for a third time) this case together with the bishops, either those, that is to say, of the province in question, or others of nearby pro-yinces — jf? I say, he follows this course, then it is for the Pope to exercise his authority and wise prudence either by sending legates of his own to try it who are qualified to do so, or to rule that the judgment and decision against the bishop previously arrived at by the said bishops is sufficient.3 Note that the present Canon too relates only to persons that are subject to the Pope of Rome, according to Zonaras, and not to persons that are not subject to his authority.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_local_rudder.htm#_Toc72635084
Quote
§. 35.

25. Give us notice therefore of this, dearly beloved, that we may write both to them, and to the Bishops who will have again to assemble, so that the guilty may be condemned in the presence of all, and confusion no longer prevail in the Churches. What has already taken place is enough: it is enough surely that Bishops have been sentenced to banishment {56} in the presence of Bishops; of which it behoves me not to speak at length, lest I appear to press too heavily on those who were present on those occasions. But if one must speak the truth, matters ought not to have proceeded so far; their private feelings [Note 50] ought not to have been suffered to reach their present pitch. Let us grant the "removal," as you write, of Athanasius and Marcellus, from their own places, yet what must one say of the case of the other Bishops and Presbyters who, as I said before, came hither from various parts, and who complained that they also had been forced away, and had suffered the like injuries? O dearly beloved, the decisions of the Church are no longer according to the Gospel, but tend only to banishment and death [Note 51]. Supposing, as you assert, that some offence rested upon those persons, the case ought to have been conducted against them, not after this manner, but according to the Canon of the Church [Note 52]. Word should have been written of it to us all [Note Q], that so a just sentence might proceed from all. For the sufferers were Bishops, and Churches of no ordinary note, but those which the Apostles themselves had governed in their own persons [Note R].

26. And why was nothing said to us concerning the Church of the Alexandrians in particular? Are you ignorant that the custom has been for word to be written first to us, and then for a just sentence to be past from this place [Rome]? If then any such suspicion rested upon the Bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to {57} obtain our concurrence in their decisions, though we never condemned him. Not so have the Constitutions [Note T] of Paul, not so have the traditions of the Fathers directed; this is another form of procedure, a novel practice. I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter [Note U], that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.
Bishops are forced away from their sees and driven into banishment, while others from different quarters are appointed in their place; others are treacherously assailed, so that the people have to grieve for those who are forcibly taken from them, while, as to those who are sent in their room, they are obliged to give over seeking the man whom they desire, and to receive those they do not.

27. I ask [Note 53] of you, that such things may no longer be, but that you will denounce in writing those persons who attempt them; so that the Churches may no longer be afflicted thus, nor any Bishop or Presbyter be treated with insult, nor any one be compelled to act contrary to his judgment, as they have represented to us, lest we become a laughing-stock among the heathen, and above all, lest we excite the wrath of God against us. For every one of us shall give account in the Day of judgment of the things which he has done in this life. May we all be possessed with the mind of God! so that the Churches may recover their own Bishops, and rejoice evermore in Jesus Christ our Lord; through Whom to the Father be glory, for ever and ever. Amen.
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/historical/tract2-2.html

But that Sardica wasn't seen as an amendment to Nicea.

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And when this had been read, Augustine, the bishop of the Church of Hippo of the province of Numidia, said:  We promise that this shall be observed by us, provided that upon more careful examination it be found to be of the Council of Nice.  Aurelius the bishop said.  If this also is pleasing to the charity of you all, give it the confirmation of your vote.  The whole Council said:  Everything that has been ordained by the Nicene Council pleases us all.  Jocundus, the bishop of the Church of Suffitula, legate of the province of Byzacena, said:  What was decreed by the Nicene Council cannot in any particular be violated.
Faustinus the bishop, legate of the Roman Church, said:  So far as has developed by the confession of your holiness as well as of the holy Alypius, and of our brother Jocundus, I believe that some of the points have been made weak and others confirmed, which should not be the case, since even the very canons themselves have been brought into question.  Therefore, that there may be harmony between us and your blessedness, let your holiness deign to refer the matter to the holy and venerable bishop of the Roman Church, that he may be able to consider whether what St. Augustine vouchsafed to enact, should be conceded or not, I mean in the matter of appeals of the inferior grade.  If therefore there still is doubt, on this head it is right that the bishop of the most blessed see be informed, if this can be found in the canons which have been approved.

Ancient Epitome.
Since the written decrees of the Nicene Council have not been found, let the Roman bishop deign to write to the bishop of Constantinople and to him of Alexandria, and let us know what he receives from them.

Aurelius the bishop said:  As we have suggested to your charity, pray allow the copies of the statutes of the Nicene Council to be read and inserted in the acts, as well as those things what have been most healthfully defined in this city by our predecessors, according to the rule of that council, and those which now have been ordained by us.  And the whole council said:  The copies of the Creed, and the statutes of the Nicene Synod which formerly were brought to our council through Cæcilean of blessed memory, the predecessor of your holiness (who was present at it), as well as the copies of the decrees made by the Fathers in this city following them, or which now we have decreed by our common consultation, shall remain inserted in these ecclesiastical acts, so that (as has been already said) your blessedness may vouchsafe to write to those most venerable men of the Church of Antioch, and of that of Alexandria, and also of that of Constantinople, that they would send most accurate copies of the decrees of the Council of Nice under the authentification of their signatures, by which, the truth of the matter having become evident, those chapters which in the commonitory our brother who is present, and fellow-bishop Faustinus, as well as our fellow-presbyters Philip and Asellus brought with them, if they be found therein, may be confirmed by us; or if they be not found, we will hold a synod and consider the matter further.  Daniel the notary read the profession of faith of the Council of Nice and its statutes to the African Council.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.i.html

Either by refusal for the addition or by not specifically requesting Sardica, the additions were not used during this council.

However, that doesn't mean the Council of Sardica wasn't, at the very least later, accepted as Ecumenical in the East. The Fifth-Sixth Council (Quintisext or Trullo), accepted as Ecumenical additions to the Sixth Ecumenical Council, stated that the Council of Sardica is, in fact, Ecumenical.

Quote
Canon II.

It has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders.  And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement.  But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form.  We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles.  But we set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers, that is, by the 318 holy God-bearing Fathers assembled at Nice, and those at Ancyra, further those at Neocæsarea and likewise those at Gangra, and besides, those at Antioch in Syria:  those too at Laodicea in Phrygia:  and likewise the 150 who assembled in this heaven-protected royal city:  and the 200 who assembled the first time in the metropolis of the Ephesians, and the 630 holy and blessed Fathers at Chalcedon.  In like manner those of Sardica, and those of Carthage:  those also who again assembled in this heaven-protected royal city under its bishop Nectarius and Theophilus Archbishop of Alexandria.  Likewise too the Canons [i.e. the decretal letters] of Dionysius, formerly Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria; and of Peter, Archbishop of Alexandria and Martyr; of Gregory the Wonder-worker, Bishop of Neocæsarea; of Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Basil, Archbishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia; of Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa; of Gregory Theologus; of Amphilochius of Iconium; of Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria; of Theophilus, Archbishop of the same great city of Alexandria; of Cyril, Archbishop of the same Alexandria; of Gennadius, Patriarch of this heaven-protected royal city.  Moreover the Canon set forth by Cyprian, Archbishop of the country of the Africans and Martyr, and by the Synod under him, which has been kept only in the country of the aforesaid Bishops, according to the custom delivered down to them.  And that no one be allowed to transgress or disregard the aforesaid canons, or to receive others beside them, supposititiously set forth by certain who have attempted to make a traffic of the truth.  But should any one be convicted of innovating upon, or attempting to overturn, any of the afore-mentioned canons, he shall be subject to receive the penalty which that canon imposes, and to be cured by it of his transgression.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiv.iii.ii.html

If the canons only applied to the Roman Church, why would the Eastern Churches confirm them and make them Ecumenical? And why would Pope Aurelius reference them at Carthage (though referenced incorrectly)?

Quote
Concerning the Regional Council of Sardica.
Prolegomena.

The holy and regional Council which was assembled in the city of Sardica, Illyria, convened A.D. 347 in the reign of Constantius and Con-stans, who were full brothers and who were both of them emperors, the one of whom reigned in Constantinople, and the other in Rome, eleven years after the death of their father Constantine the Great. It was attended by three hundred Fathers from the West, and by seventy-six from the East, according to Socrates (Book II, ch. 20) and Sozomen (Book III, ch. 12). Of these the exarchs were not only Hosius, the bishop of Cordova, Spain, a man worthy of all respect, on account of his great age and of the excessive toil he underwent, but included also Archidamos and Philoxenus, the presbyters, and the three legates of Pope Julius, acting as the latter’s personal representatives. Maximus of Jerusalem, Paul of Constantinople and Athanasius of Alexandria, though present at the Council, had been deposed from office by the Eusebians. Protogenes, the bishop of Sardica, and others were also attending this Council. But a split and division between the Fathers of the East and those of the West followed, and they failed to agree with each other. For the Easterners, being Arianists, when departing for Sardica, wrote to the Westerners not to admit to a seat in the Council St. Paul, and Athanasius the Great, Marcellus of Ancyra, and Asclepas Gazaeus, on the ground that they had been deposed from office. But the Westerners replied to them that they did not consider them to be at fault, nor to have been duly deposed, and on this account would regard them as entitled to seats and participation. But when the Easterners learned this, they turned back to Philippoupolis, and again deposed from office Athanasius, Paul, Marcellus, and Asclepas, Julius the bishop (i.e., Pope) of Rome, Hosius (the bishop) of Cordova, Protogenes (the bishop) of Sardica, and others. Being averse from perfect accord with the doctrine of coessentiality (though Socrates says that they openly anathematized it, in Book II, ch. 20), they anathematized only those who asserted three Gods, and anyone that said that Christ was not a God, or that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit were one and the same person; and anyone that said perhaps that the Son was unbegotten, or perhaps that there was a time or an age in which He was not. After the Western Fathers convoked and assembled the Council, they confirmed the Nicene Creed, without adding anything to it or removing anything from it, and proceeded to declare Athanasius, and Paul, and Marcellus, and Asclepas right and innocent, and through the emperors they contrived to have their thrones returned to them; while, on the other hand, they deposed from, office the Easterners in Philippoupolis in turn, though not all of them, but only eleven; for not all of them, were Arians, but only some of them, the others being orthodox (as the Sardican Fathers state in their letter to all the churches). That is why they also anathematized many doctrines of Arms; and their Creed was accepted as orthodox by divine Hilary. Besides all these things, they also issued the present Canons, which are necessary to the good order and constitution of the Church. They are confirmed indefinitely by c. I of the 4th and by c. I of the 7th, and are confirmed definitely by c. II of the 6th; and by reason of this confirmation they have acquired a power which is in a way ecumenical.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_local_rudder.htm#_Toc72635084

I don't understand what point you're making here.

Btw, I've been to where Sardica was held.

Cool.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:29:07 PM by Azurestone » Logged


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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2011, 03:31:44 PM »

The episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church confesses the Orthodox Creed as the Fathers set their seal upon it in Ecumenical Council, and wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid, and has been since the time of the ascension, as in every generation from the Apostles until now, there are those whose writings reveal that they would be given communion by a bishop in the diptychs of the Orthodox Church of today.
I have a slight concern about the part which I bolded. You stated that whatever has the Bishop's approval is pleasing to God, yet I believe we can all agree that there have been heretical bishops from time to time. What is the Eastern Orthodox Church's protocol for dealing with heretical clergy? Do they hold a Council or is a letter written to the other Patriarchs to determine the course of action or what?
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2011, 03:31:44 PM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w

With human nature causing all of us to tend to favor the darkness, especially rebellion and lack of trust in authority, it only makes sense that Christ would appoint a visible leader to shepherd His Church until He comes again.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2011, 03:31:44 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?
How can you be sure that an Ecumenical Council is the highest level of appeal within the Church? Did the Fathers say this? Did they say it in an Ecumenical Council? Can you really cite an Ecumenical Council to prove that Ecumenical Councils are the highest form of authority within the Church? Is that not similar to Protestants who believe in sola scriptura citing Scripture to prove Scripture?
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2011, 06:46:49 PM »

RULES OF THE GAME

Two point for each post which defends a person's Church WITHOUT demeaning or insulting anyone else's.

Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

Minus two points for every post which insults another person for any reason (including their opinion).

Minus two points for every post which insults another person's Church.

At the end of February 2011, the person with the most points wins.

PRIZE: $50 Amazon.com voucher


Ok, I won't post anything and win by default Wink
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »

Ok, I won't post anything and win by default Wink
You just did! Cheesy
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2011, 06:53:43 PM »

Ok, I won't post anything and win by default Wink
You just did! Cheesy

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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2011, 07:00:01 PM »

RULES OF THE GAME

Two point for each post which defends a person's Church WITHOUT demeaning or insulting anyone else's.

Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

Minus two points for every post which insults another person for any reason (including their opinion).

Minus two points for every post which insults another person's Church.

At the end of February 2011, the person with the most points wins.

PRIZE: $50 Amazon.com voucher


Ok, I won't post anything and win by default Wink

You'll get more points posts that are not offensive and not worth replying to.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 07:01:40 PM by Melodist » Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 07:05:01 PM »

RULES OF THE GAME

Two point for each post which defends a person's Church WITHOUT demeaning or insulting anyone else's.

Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

Minus two points for every post which insults another person for any reason (including their opinion).

Minus two points for every post which insults another person's Church.

At the end of February 2011, the person with the most points wins.

PRIZE: $50 Amazon.com voucher


Ok, I won't post anything and win by default Wink

You'll get more points posts that are not offensive and not worth replying to.

Yes, I know, but it was kind of my way of saying (tongue-in-cheek) that everyone will inevitably end up saying offensive things (and me included if I posted) so i'd be better off not posting Wink
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 07:14:07 PM »

If the canons only applied to the Roman Church, why would the Eastern Churches confirm them and make them Ecumenical?

Rome was in communion with Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jeruslaem, Cyprus and Georgia at the time.

And why would Pope Aurelius reference them at Carthage (though referenced incorrectly)?
Carthage was in the Patriarchate of the West at the time.

Quote
Concerning the Regional Council of Sardica.
Prolegomena.

I don't understand what point you're making here.
Just adding information. And the bishops at the countercouncil of Phillipolis were not entirely in the wrong, Sardica even saying so.


Btw, I've been to where Sardica was held.

Cool.
Cool indeed!
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 07:27:40 PM »

The episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church confesses the Orthodox Creed as the Fathers set their seal upon it in Ecumenical Council, and wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid, and has been since the time of the ascension, as in every generation from the Apostles until now, there are those whose writings reveal that they would be given communion by a bishop in the diptychs of the Orthodox Church of today.
I have a slight concern about the part which I bolded. You stated that whatever has the Bishop's approval is pleasing to God, yet I believe we can all agree that there have been heretical bishops from time to time. What is the Eastern Orthodox Church's protocol for dealing with heretical clergy?
Investigation, trial, call to repentance, deposition if refused.
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Do they hold a Council or is a letter written to the other Patriarchs to determine the course of action or what?
Depends on the circumstances. Possibly a combination thereof. Usually the local synod takes care of the matter.
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2011, 07:31:10 PM »

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, whom Christ called the Rock upon which He would build His Church. "Rock" indicates sturdiness or stability which is why the Catholic Church has been going strong for 2000 years and has a strong sense of unity amongst its members who are in Full Communion with Benedict XVI, St. Peter's current successor. The Pope and Bishops in communion with him defend and uphold orthodox Christian teachings, and are known as the Magisterium of the Church. Throughout its history, the Church has housed many individuals (all of them in fact) who are grievous sinners. However, this fact in no way discredits the Church since it is a hospital for sinners, nor does it indicate that the Church has ever erred on faith and morals since we know that the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Church just as Christ promised.

The Church was certainly not founded  personally upon Peter, so says the majority of early Church Fathers. The Roman Church has been quite unsteady over the centuries with dueling Popes, Worldly Corruption and was responsible for the Mother of all schisms, the Protestant Reformation.

Whoops.... I'm out ! (that was fast)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB8Kvk0M0w

With human nature causing all of us to tend to favor the darkness, especially rebellion and lack of trust in authority, it only makes sense that Christ would appoint a visible leader to shepherd His Church until He comes again.
No such need was felt by the Fathers gathering in the Apostolic Counicl of Jerusalem and the Ecumenical Councils.  The Apostolate-Episcopate Christ appointed in His Church did the job.
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 07:40:13 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?
How can you be sure that an Ecumenical Council is the highest level of appeal within the Church? Did the Fathers say this? Did they say it in an Ecumenical Council? Can you really cite an Ecumenical Council to prove that Ecumenical Councils are the highest form of authority within the Church?
The recitals of all the definitions from Chalcedon to Nicea II all explicitely cite the previous Councils as the authoity to which they conform.
Quote
The councils dogmatic authority in the western church was made clear by words of Pope Gregory I: "I confess that I accept and venerate the four councils (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon) in the same way as I do the four books of the holy Gospel."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum02.htm

Is that not similar to Protestants who believe in sola scriptura citing Scripture to prove Scripture?
1) is that a criticism of Protestantism?
2) no, it is not similar to sola scriptura.
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 08:18:55 PM »

Given what we know:  At the end of the day there is no true Church.  There is only the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, and it was, is and will be where our bishops, in consultation, tell us.  The goal then is to get them to consult rather than conflict.
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 09:48:36 PM »

Good day,

It is Oriental Orthodox Churches, specially Tewahedo....                   


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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 10:13:35 PM »

Given what we know:  At the end of the day there is no true Church.  There is only the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, and it was, is and will be where our bishops, in consultation, tell us.  The goal then is to get them to consult rather than conflict.
Counsult whom?

If our bishops confess the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, it will be gathered around them, as Pat. St. Ignatius said.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 10:56:32 PM »

The True Church is the Holy Trinity.  Which,  by the will of the Father, has put His only begotten Son Jesus Christ as the Head who has sent out the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father to gather all into the One Head Jesus Christ.  We become partakers of the Church through Baptism by entering into the Head which is Jesus Christ by grace bestowed through faith, forming the Body of Christ.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

 27Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. (Pretty much all of 1 corinthians 12)

The True Church by essence is the Holy Trinity.  The Church militant, the fullness of the Church is contained in Orthodoxy, but there are those who are also part of the Church which we don't know.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 11:02:48 PM »

Leo believed his role to be that over all bishops, as well.
What did the bishops in Ecumenical Counil believe?
How can you be sure that an Ecumenical Council is the highest level of appeal within the Church? Did the Fathers say this? Did they say it in an Ecumenical Council? Can you really cite an Ecumenical Council to prove that Ecumenical Councils are the highest form of authority within the Church? Is that not similar to Protestants who believe in sola scriptura citing Scripture to prove Scripture?

Um, yes, they did, part. the 6th and 7th.  As for the Fathers, for example, St. Augustine calls the Ecumenical Councils "plenary councils" and does recognize them as the highest authority.   Protestants do cite Scripture to prove Scripture.  By the same token, it is better than citing a so-called lower authority to prove a supposed higher authority.  
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2011, 11:05:30 PM »

Good day,

It is Oriental Orthodox Churches, specially Tewahedo....                   


 +       +       +

So what you are saying is that in your view the Tewahedo Ethiopian Church is "specially" regarded above the Coptic Church, for example, as the true Church? 
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 11:10:07 PM »

ENOCH:

XC.28-42. The New Jerusalem, the Conversion of the surviving Gentiles, the Resurrection of the Righteous, the Messiah. Enoch awakes and weeps.
28
And I stood up to see till they folded up that old house; and carried off all the pillars, and all the beams and ornaments of the house were at the same time folded up with it, and they carried
29
it off and laid it in a place in the south of the land. And I saw till the Lord of the sheep brought a new house greater and loftier than that first, and set it up in the place of the first which had beer folded up: all its pillars were new, and its ornaments were new and larger than those of the first, the old one which He had taken away, and all the sheep were within it.
30
And I saw all the sheep which had been left, and all the beasts on the earth, and all the birds of the heaven, falling down and doing homage to those sheep and making petition to and obeying
31
them in every thing. And thereafter those three who were clothed in white and had seized me by my hand [who had taken me up before], and the hand of that ram also seizing hold of me, they
32
took me up and set me down in the midst of those sheep before the judgement took place. And those
33
sheep were all white, and their wool was abundant and clean. And all that had been destroyed and dispersed, and all the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the heaven, assembled in that house, and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced with great joy because they were all good and had returned to
34
His house. And I saw till they laid down that sword, which had been given to the sheep, and they brought it back into the house, and it was sealed before the presence of the Lord, and all the sheep
35
were invited into that house, but it held them not. And the eyes of them all were opened, and they
36
saw the good, and there was not one among them that did not see. And I saw that that house was large and broad and very full.
37
And I saw that a white bull was born, with large horns and all the beasts of the field and all the
38
birds of the air feared him and made petition to him all the time. And I saw till all their generations were transformed, and they all became white bulls; and the first among them became a lamb, and that lamb became a great animal and had great black horns on its head; and the Lord of the sheep
39
rejoiced over it and over all the oxen. And I slept in their midst: and I awoke and saw everything.
40
This is the vision which I saw while I slept, and I awoke and blessed the Lord of righteousness and
41
gave Him glory. Then I wept with a great weeping and my tears stayed not till I could no longer endure it: when I saw, they flowed on account of what I had seen; for everything shall come and
42
be fulfilled, and all the deeds of men in their order were shown to me. On that night I remembered the first dream, and because of it I wept and was troubled-because I had seen that vision.




REVELATION:

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


 
Kebra Nagast:
  ....And we believe thus and we adore the Holy Trinity. And those who do not believe thus are excommunicated p. 165 by the Word of God, the King of heaven and earth, both in this world and in that world which is to come. And we are strong in the Orthodox Faith which the Fathers the Apostles have delivered unto us, the Faith of the Church. And thus ETHIOPIA continued to abide in her Faith until the coming of our Lord JESUS CHRIST, to Whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.



Sad to say,  not all orthodox are in commune with Ethiopia...Because of that Council....True Church, how wonderful you are including your sister Churches of the same belief....Other churches have teach Light but you have the fullness of Light...
Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


All of this is mine, And I have no intention to judge others...if there are errors, it is also mine...I want only to present...(forum)...

Thanks,
Jerold.

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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2011, 12:13:23 AM »

RULES OF THE GAME

Two point for each post which defends a person's Church WITHOUT demeaning or insulting anyone else's.

The Oriental Orthodox Church.  Why?  Because we have such cool saints and beautiful hymns.


Quote
Five points for a post which remains unquoted for a week.

I'm rarely quoted, so I'm pretty safe here.


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Minus two points for every post which insults another person for any reason (including their opinion).

I think everyone is great!!!!


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Minus two points for every post which insults another person's Church.

I think EO's are cool and RC's have great hats!


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At the end of February 2011, the person with the most points wins.

PRIZE: $50 Amazon.com voucher[/b][/font]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 12:19:09 AM »

Listen to our beautiful hymns:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9840.0.html

Read about our wonderful saints:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10363.0.html


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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 12:28:40 AM »


So why do you quibble over mere words that seperated the OO Church with the EO?
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 12:29:40 AM »

There should be rules to add technical and flagrant fouls in this game, and automatic disqualification for the Amazon voucher.  Cool
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 12:30:40 AM »

Dnarmist:

You quoted me!

But I think you're very nice.   Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 12:33:45 AM »

Let me also mention that our OO Church Fathers have a lot of wisdom:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12005.0.html
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