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Author Topic: Maronite Patriarch and six elderly bishops resign  (Read 1585 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: January 18, 2011, 02:24:45 AM »

Maronite Patriarch and six elderly bishops resign

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=123745#axzz1BKTt7Wc9
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 03:23:28 AM »

One sees here the error of the claim that Popes and Patriarchs have equality in the Catholic Church.  Despite his resignation the Vatican is refusing to allow the Patriarch to resign.  The decison is not his to make but the Pope's.  One cannot imagine a Pope not being allowed to resign if a Patriarch did not want it!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 03:25:38 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 03:53:01 AM »

Wasn't it not too many years ago that an Orthodox bishop wished to retire, supposedly for health reasons, and he was not permitted to do so?
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 04:12:07 AM »

More news, showing the Vatican's level of control of Patriarchs and of the administration of Eastern Churches.  Is this what we would want for our Patriarchs?  I certainly do not want it for Russian Patriarch Kirill.

"The source added that the Vatican had the option of rejecting Sfeir’s resignation, delaying its acceptance or even appointing aides to the patriarch to assist him in his duties if he feels fatigued as he advances in age."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=123802#axzz1BN8UQQxk

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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 09:36:03 AM »

One sees here the error of the claim that Popes and Patriarchs have equality in the Catholic Church.  Despite his resignation the Vatican is refusing to allow the Patriarch to resign.  The decison is not his to make but the Pope's.  One cannot imagine a Pope not being allowed to resign if a Patriarch did not want it!


Amen!
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 11:13:26 AM »

One sees here the error of the claim that Popes and Patriarchs have equality in the Catholic Church.  Despite his resignation the Vatican is refusing to allow the Patriarch to resign.  The decison is not his to make but the Pope's.  One cannot imagine a Pope not being allowed to resign if a Patriarch did not want it!

OH, gasp! Shocking! The Pope is the Pope!!!! Ahhhhh!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 11:41:58 AM »

Wasn't it not too many years ago that an Orthodox bishop wished to retire, supposedly for health reasons, and he was not permitted to do so?

Yes, by his Synod, no by one guy in Rome.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 12:26:57 PM »

One sees here the error of the claim that Popes and Patriarchs have equality in the Catholic Church.  Despite his resignation the Vatican is refusing to allow the Patriarch to resign.  The decison is not his to make but the Pope's.  One cannot imagine a Pope not being allowed to resign if a Patriarch did not want it!

OH, gasp! Shocking! The Pope is the Pope!!!! Ahhhhh!  Roll Eyes

some have been telling us that the Pope doesn't micromanage the whole church
Contrary to popular belief, the Pope is not running every aspect of Parish and Diocese.

First time I've heard an EO criticize the Bishop of Rome for not micromanaging bishops. Guess there is a first time for everything.

First time I've heard an EO criticize the Bishop of Rome for not micromanaging bishops. Guess there is a first time for everything.
My thoughts exactly.

Oh yes, those terrible heresies which he went out of his way to correct locally and ostensibly cost folks their lives, but hey, let's leave the global criminal conspiracy to cover the child abuse up to the local Bishops.

Sound pastoral priorities there.
I don't get it. You expect one man to micromanage a world-wide instituion of 1 billion members? Honestly, I think that no matter what actions the Pope takes, you people would find a reason to be mad.

And is just a bishop.
Even though St. Peter had a special role he was still an Apostle, much like how the modern Popes, though their role in the Church is special, are still just a Bishop.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 12:33:37 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 12:36:27 PM »

In the Roman Church, when a bishop reaches a certain age he must submit his resignation to the Pope, but if necessary the Pope can delay it.  The article states that because so many of their bishops have reached the age of retirement, for the good of the local church the Pope has delayed the Patriarch's retirement, till the election of replacement bishops.
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 12:39:58 PM »

The question is why so suddenly 7 of them resigned? Do they all share a birthday? I doubt.
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 01:51:56 PM »




some have been telling us that the Pope doesn't micromanage the whole church
He doesn't. So what is your point? You usually don't have one.

BTW, this is another instance of you can't win with the Eastern Orthodox. If the Pope excersizes Papal authority, it's "oh no, he's the Anti-Christ. The world is coming to an end!!!"

But when they see that he can't manage every nook and crany of the Church, then it's "Why isn't the Pope doing his job?"

Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 01:53:04 PM »


Even though St. Peter had a special role he was still an Apostle, much like how the modern Popes, though their role in the Church is special, are still just a Bishop.
Yes, he is still a bishop. There is no sacrament that confers "Papacy" on the Pope.
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 01:56:09 PM »

The question is why so suddenly 7 of them resigned? Do they all share a birthday? I doubt.

Its possible they were all born in the same year or so.  At work, there are a number of us, in one particular office, that will be retiring in the same year. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 02:32:55 PM »


Quote
Another two Maronite bishops are expected to retire in March, the sources said.

They added that bishops to replace the retired men should have been elected during the spiritual conclave held in Bkirki recently but this did not happen because Sfeir has not yet accepted their resignations.

Seems to me that more than just the Vatican is being "difficult" about resignations...if you bother to read the whole article.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 03:03:23 PM »

Wasn't it not too many years ago that an Orthodox bishop wished to retire, supposedly for health reasons, and he was not permitted to do so?

Yes, by his Synod, no by one guy in Rome.

Did he appeal to Constantinople?
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 03:08:55 PM »

Did he appeal to Constantinople?

No, Patriarch Paul did not appeal to Constantinople.
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2011, 03:12:15 PM »

Did he appeal to Constantinople?

No, Patriarch Paul did not appeal to Constantinople.

Interesting, was it a case of submitting to the will of the Synod?  I wonder, though, if he could have had he chosen, and what then would have happened had Pat. Bartholomew chose to go a different course? I am not saying that Constantinople is comparable to Rome, just trying to understand the similarities and differences in ecclesiology.
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 03:42:25 PM »

There is far more to this situation than is being reported. Calls for the Patriarch to resign have been ongoing.

Last October during the Middle Eastern Synod, two cardinals approached Patriarch Sfeir on behalf of the Pope to *continue* discussing the possibility of the Patriarch resigning. His Beatitude refused, though so far as I'm being told, the Patriarch informed Rome of his resignation shortly thereafter. The Vatican is by no means sitting on it's hands, it's not really in her hands, for Patriarch Sfeir needs to approach the Synod with his resignation proper. The *pending* resignation was leaked to the Daily Star and did not come from the Patriarchal Synod or the Vatican. It is also important to note that at the same Middle Eastern Synod in Rome last October, Patriarch Sfeir was one of the leaders promoting Patriarchal rights in the Catholic Church, contrary to the inferred behavior of subjection to Rome that so many here are reading into this issue. There is also precedence of Maronite Patriarchs resigning without permission from Rome.

This is nothing more than an Eastern Catholic hierarch *further* discussing with the Vatican the ramifications of his resignation. The Patriarch's office is directly tied to Lebanese welfare and politics, and unfortunately, this issue is as much about a moral and political integrity as it is a spiritual one.

Please spare this topic from the usual "Pope v. Everyone Else" discourse, it is actually rather sensitive and nothing to do with ecclesiastical relations between EC and Rome. I have also been told that Patriarch Sfeir has written to the leaders of the Melkites and EO Antiochenes on the topic.

If anything, it's a drawn out and micro-reported account of church leaders discussing.
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 08:05:17 PM »

Quote
Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!

Erm, no. It's more like, "what's the point of investing so much authority in the Pope if he doesn't exercise it where it matters?" With all the RC apologetics about how the Pope guarantees unity, doctrinal/ moral coherence, etc., one has to ask, "where's the beef?"

The Melkite Synod's defiance of Roman dogma being a case in point... but I suppose you would interpret that as a call for micromanaging, just like asking the Pope to take decisive action where there is a systemic problem of child rape in his church.
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 10:25:46 PM »




some have been telling us that the Pope doesn't micromanage the whole church
He doesn't. So what is your point? You usually don't have one.

I always have a point, but it's usually too sharp for your compfort.

Quote
BTW, this is another instance of you can't win with the Eastern Orthodox. If the Pope excersizes Papal authority, it's "oh no, he's the Anti-Christ. The world is coming to an end!!!"

But when they see that he can't manage every nook and crany of the Church, then it's "Why isn't the Pope doing his job?"

If we didn't have the glare in our eyes from the chasm between the Vatican's grandios claims of the benefits of its uber-jurisdiction and the stark failures of its inability mind the store, we would be happier.

Quote
Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!
We want him to mind his own business in our Church and take care of his business in his own church. On matters outside the Church, like secularism and Islamism, he can act as he pleases, including in unison with us.
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 10:28:43 PM »


Even though St. Peter had a special role he was still an Apostle, much like how the modern Popes, though their role in the Church is special, are still just a Bishop.
Yes, he is still a bishop. There is no sacrament that confers "Papacy" on the Pope.
Yes. It just "happens." LOL.
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 11:51:10 AM »

Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!
No, the Church certainly would never support the heretical "absoulte and infinite authority" of a single man.
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 01:09:24 PM »


Even though St. Peter had a special role he was still an Apostle, much like how the modern Popes, though their role in the Church is special, are still just a Bishop.
Yes, he is still a bishop. There is no sacrament that confers "Papacy" on the Pope.
Yes. It just "happens." LOL.
^ Most ridiculous post of the month.
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 01:09:43 PM »

Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!
No, the Church certainly would never support the heretical "absoulte and infinite authority" of a single man.
Then why do you guys sometimes demand it of us? lol
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 01:10:54 PM »

Quote
Ok guys, which is it? You want our Pope to have no authority in some matters, and absolute and infinite authority in others? Geesh!

Erm, no. It's more like, "what's the point of investing so much authority in the Pope if he doesn't exercise it where it matters?" With all the RC apologetics about how the Pope guarantees unity, doctrinal/ moral coherence, etc., one has to ask, "where's the beef?"

The Melkite Synod's defiance of Roman dogma being a case in point... but I suppose you would interpret that as a call for micromanaging, just like asking the Pope to take decisive action where there is a systemic problem of child rape in his church.
And then when he does exercise it you guys get T-ed off. It's actually quite funny to watch.
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 02:08:58 PM »


Even though St. Peter had a special role he was still an Apostle, much like how the modern Popes, though their role in the Church is special, are still just a Bishop.
Yes, he is still a bishop. There is no sacrament that confers "Papacy" on the Pope.
Yes. It just "happens." LOL.
^ Most ridiculous post of the month.
Nothing new.
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