Premarital Sex

[Libertas]

I'm a guy, 17, and I have had the idea in my head for many years that sex is to be reserved for marriage. I can recall making the commitment to myself a long time ago.

Anyway, this issue is among one of the few that I feel alienates me from my male friends, including some who are Christian. They either take a less strict stance on the issue, or they reject it outright, with the exception of one. (It's not as if I act holier-than-thou or condemn them. I've said, "I don't approve of what you do, but I don't look down on you" countless times!) I'm not made fun of or anything, but I do feel internally alienated.

Basically, I wanted to use the Internet to find like-minded folk, but a Google search is not proving to be very fruitful. This does, quite honestly, make me wonder if I am normal, sometimes. So, I'd like to hear from men on this forum, particularly younger ones, who can demonstrate that I am not alone in this area.

[Alveus Lacuna]

You are not alone. Granted, I was your age about 10 years ago, but I had the same convictions at the same time. I waited to have sex until I was married at 23 because I took my Christian faith seriously. I didn't do this on my own, however. It was often because my wife (then fiance) was a godly woman and wouldn't let things go too far. Anyway, in the long run I have seen that this was the right and true path to take and I am thankful that God has shown us this way. That being said, it would be more manageable and realistic if people were still married at younger ages as was done in other times. Anyway, be encouraged if this helps at all.

[minasoliman]

I was 17 once, but I understand how you feel.  This feeling carries on even in college, and maybe even in some circles in post-graduate.  It's a very tough life in this generation.  Your virginity will be mocked.  It's something you have to unfortunately face, but stay strong.

[ialmisry]

I'm a guy, 17, and I have had the idea in my head for many years that sex is to be reserved for marriage. I can recall making the commitment to myself a long time ago.

Anyway, this issue is among one of the few that I feel alienates me from my male friends, including some who are Christian. They either take a less strict stance on the issue, or they reject it outright, with the exception of one. (It's not as if I act holier-than-thou or condemn them. I've said, "I don't approve of what you do, but I don't look down on you" countless times!) I'm not made fun of or anything, but I do feel internally alienated.

Basically, I wanted to use the Internet to find like-minded folk, but a Google search is not proving to be very fruitful. This does, quite honestly, make me wonder if I am normal, sometimes. So, I'd like to hear from men on this forum, particularly younger ones, who can demonstrate that I am not alone in this area.

Abba Antony said: "A time is coming when people will go insane. And when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying: 'You are crazy; you are not like us."

[Alveus Lacuna]

Your virginity will be mocked.

I actually never experienced this, the few times that it came up. Some people were genuinely curious why or how this could be done, but most people had a "whatever works for you" attitude and chalked it up to me being simply religious/traditional/"good" guy. As in "Eh, some people are just that way; you know? Moral and traditional and whatever."

I don't want to pretend it was easy or anything, or that waiting to have sex until you're into your 20's or 30's doesn't cause problems, because it does. But I would say that if done with a pure heart and good intentions toward God, then any negative effects that might come in no way compare to the blessings of God or the potential damage of fornication. It's worth it to wait.

[minasoliman]

Your virginity will be mocked.

I actually never experienced this, the few times that it came up. Some people were genuinely curious why or how this could be done, but most people had a "whatever works for you" attitude and chalked it up to me being simply religious/traditional/"good" guy. As in "Eh, some people are just that way; you know? Moral and traditional and whatever."

I don't want to pretend it was easy or anything, or that waiting to have sex until you're into your 20's or 30's doesn't cause problems, because it does. But I would say that if done with a pure heart and good intentions toward God, then any negative effects that might come in no way compare to the blessings of God or the potential damage of fornication. It's worth it to wait.

Well, my close friends are are nice enough to be like, "wow dude, to be honest, that's pretty hard to do for me."  But you'll get the occasional, "Are you gay" or "are you serious" or "are you sure it's because you're religious or because no one would do you?"  C'est la vie.

[KBN1]

Well, my close friends are are nice enough to be like, "wow dude, to be honest, that's pretty hard to do for me."  But you'll get the occasional, "Are you gay" or "are you serious" or "are you sure it's because you're religious or because no one would do you?"  C'est la vie.

Do your best not to let any ridicule get to you.  There will always be people telling you what to be self conscious about.  Even if you were sexually active there would still be someone telling you that you aren't sexually active often enough or with enough people or with the right people.  It is a game you can't win, so don't play.  Try not to engage those thoughts and doubts, but rather train your mind and heart in chastity and purity. 

[Theophilos78]

I'm a guy, 17, and I have had the idea in my head for many years that sex is to be reserved for marriage. I can recall making the commitment to myself a long time ago.

Anyway, this issue is among one of the few that I feel alienates me from my male friends, including some who are Christian. They either take a less strict stance on the issue, or they reject it outright, with the exception of one. (It's not as if I act holier-than-thou or condemn them. I've said, "I don't approve of what you do, but I don't look down on you" countless times!) I'm not made fun of or anything, but I do feel internally alienated.

Basically, I wanted to use the Internet to find like-minded folk, but a Google search is not proving to be very fruitful. This does, quite honestly, make me wonder if I am normal, sometimes. So, I'd like to hear from men on this forum, particularly younger ones, who can demonstrate that I am not alone in this area.

You are definitely not alone. Let me share with you what kind of reactions I have got so far whenever I disclose this "secret".  

A girl I met on the net: "What is this? A silly joke? Are you kidding me? I am no fool". (No more correspondence)

A male friend: "You have destroyed yourself. I cannot understand why you want to practice self-castration".

A male friend (after I tell him that pre-marital sex should be avoided because it is a sin and a form of sexual immorality): "Hahaha! This means all men in the world will go to Hell, but you will go to paradise".

A male friend: "Why should I not believe you? Why would you like to make a joke on this serious issue or tell lies? If you say you have not experienced sex yet, I believe you. This is your choice".

A female friend: "Do not share this secret with others because people will not understand. However, I consider your decision something unusual, but not abnormal. It shows that you care about virtues and are determined to live by your principles. Good for you".

A female friend: "You are such a great person! Be sure that you are in the minority, but not alone. My husband had his first experience with me after marriage".

A male friend: "Are you still untouched? When will you vanquish your fear and give me the good news that you have become one of us?"

A female friend: "It is high time you opened your package and let girls like me see your precious object".

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If you feel pressured by your friends or company, maybe you could you tone down your own emphasis when it comes up.  Let it be a bit more quiet and low-key, less broadcasted.

You are normal, but our modern world is hypersexualised, and most people believe each other to be having way more sex than they are in actuality.  Stick to your core values, be yourself for yourself, don't feel negatively influenced by the behaviors of others. If your lifestyle fulfills you and gives you inward satisfaction, then pursue it continually.  You are perfectly normal so long as you live your life the way that makes you feel accomplished and on track.  Follow your gut and your heart and your faith, it will go far.

Plus, you are 17, your peers are a bit more excited about sex than they will be as you get older, so it may seem a bit more exaggerated then it can be..

stay blessed,
habte selass

[orthonorm]

Your virginity will be mocked.

My non-virginity has been mocked by many a woman:

"Really? You are not a virgin? Are you sure?"

[orthonorm]

Plus, you are 17, your peers are a bit more excited about sex than they will be as you get older, so it may seem a bit more exaggerated then it can be..

I am way past 17 and nothing has changed save maybe the level of frustation among those I know.

[Shiny]

Your virginity will be mocked.

My non-virginity has been mocked by many a woman:

"Really? You are not a virgin? Are you sure?"

"You're doing it wrong"

[Alveus Lacuna]

I will say that I often got the objection that without premarital intercourse, how would I know that my potential spouse was going to pleasure me well enough, or if we had good chemistry? Many men compared it to taking a car for a test drive before you purchase it. I guess if I don't want a car that's all used and dirty trying to pretend its new with a white dress on the wedding day, then why would I get all dirty myself? Oh, plus we're not cars, we're humans.

[Punch]

A female friend: "It is high time you opened your package and let girls like me see your precious object".

You wouldn't still happen to have her number, would you?

[Alveus Lacuna]

A female friend: "It is high time you opened your package and let girls like me see your precious object".

You wouldn't still happen to have her number, would you?

 

[JMTRD6]

As someone who has failed, I can tell you that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be (outside of the sacrament of marriage), and that it didn't change my social status.  If peer pressure is your concern, then maybe you have the wrong peers...  Continue to look to your Orthodox brothers and sisters (something that I wasn't remotely a part of at your age) for love and support in the matter, and don't forget to pray. 

If it helps you to know this, I was recently divorced by my wife of 7 years and I plan on abstaining from sex entirely, save for marriage (if that even happens again).  Furthermore, I don't believe that you are abnormal at all...  I had the same mindset when I was your age, I simply failed when it came time to stand up for my beliefs in the presence of a beautiful girl that I thought I was in love with.  May God grant all of us, who are unwed, the strength to remain joyfully abstinent.

[orthonorm]

I will say that I often got the objection that without premarital intercourse, how would I know that my potential spouse was going to pleasure me well enough, or if we had good chemistry? Many men compared it to taking a car for a test drive before you purchase it. I guess if I don't want a car that's all used and dirty trying to pretend its new with a white dress on the wedding day, then why would I get all dirty myself? Oh, plus we're not cars, we're humans.

Really? Sex makes someone dirty? Used?

If the only baggage or the most difficult baggage my spouse and I brought to a marriage was simply a colorful sexual history, that would be a miracle.

In the litany of self-centered problems I bring to a marriage, the sex I had before hand is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

Vanity
Pride
Anger
Lack of Charity
Impatience
Lability
...
...
|
|
V
Sex

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

[Shlomlokh]

I will say that I often got the objection that without premarital intercourse, how would I know that my potential spouse was going to pleasure me well enough, or if we had good chemistry? Many men compared it to taking a car for a test drive before you purchase it. I guess if I don't want a car that's all used and dirty trying to pretend its new with a white dress on the wedding day, then why would I get all dirty myself? Oh, plus we're not cars, we're humans.

Really? Sex makes someone dirty? Used?

If the only baggage or the most difficult baggage my spouse and I brought to a marriage was simply a colorful sexual history, that would be a miracle.

In the litany of self-centered problems I bring to a marriage, the sex I had before hand is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

Vanity
Pride
Anger
Lack of Charity
Impatience
Lability
...
...
|
|
V
Sex

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

Being loose=virtue?

In Christ,
Andrew

[orthonorm]

I will say that I often got the objection that without premarital intercourse, how would I know that my potential spouse was going to pleasure me well enough, or if we had good chemistry? Many men compared it to taking a car for a test drive before you purchase it. I guess if I don't want a car that's all used and dirty trying to pretend its new with a white dress on the wedding day, then why would I get all dirty myself? Oh, plus we're not cars, we're humans.

Really? Sex makes someone dirty? Used?

If the only baggage or the most difficult baggage my spouse and I brought to a marriage was simply a colorful sexual history, that would be a miracle.

In the litany of self-centered problems I bring to a marriage, the sex I had before hand is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

Vanity
Pride
Anger
Lack of Charity
Impatience
Lability
...
...
|
|
V
Sex

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

Being loose=virtue?

In Christ,
Andrew

Is lying virtue? Vanity? Gluttony? Pride? Judging?

Do many men wring their hands over their potential Christian bride's past in these areas as much as their potential bride's sexual past?

Answer that question honestly.

Read the OT and the NT, all these sins are make us whores and adulterous before God.

But when it comes to women, we judge them so harshly as men in light of their sexual history.

[Shlomlokh]

I will say that I often got the objection that without premarital intercourse, how would I know that my potential spouse was going to pleasure me well enough, or if we had good chemistry? Many men compared it to taking a car for a test drive before you purchase it. I guess if I don't want a car that's all used and dirty trying to pretend its new with a white dress on the wedding day, then why would I get all dirty myself? Oh, plus we're not cars, we're humans.

Really? Sex makes someone dirty? Used?

If the only baggage or the most difficult baggage my spouse and I brought to a marriage was simply a colorful sexual history, that would be a miracle.

In the litany of self-centered problems I bring to a marriage, the sex I had before hand is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

Vanity
Pride
Anger
Lack of Charity
Impatience
Lability
...
...
|
|
V
Sex

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

Being loose=virtue?

In Christ,
Andrew

Is lying virtue? Vanity? Gluttony? Pride? Judging?

Do many men wring their hands over their potential Christian bride's past in these areas as much as their potential bride's sexual past?

Answer that question honestly.

Read the OT and the NT, all these sins are make us whores and adulterous before God.

But when it comes to women, we judge them so harshly as men in light of their sexual history.

Surely, you know the virtues and that chastity is one of them. Logically, the opposite of chastity would be the opposite of a virtue, meaning it would be a vice.

Many men do not "wring their hands" over their potential bride's past, assuming she recognizes that it was wrong and sincerely repented of it (as any man who did likewise should do), not believing it to be a blessing, which is what you seem to be advocating or attempt to justify.

We all have our scares and dirt, but God can and does cleanse us and make us whole. But I do not see the benefit in having a sexually experienced women as my wife whatsoever. Further, I fail to see how two people who were previously promiscuous, indulging in other people, extolling it to be a good, will last in a marriage very long or do any good for each other emotionally and spiritually. A complete 180 needs to take place in the mindset.

And I do not think that women should be the only one's corrected for this. Men are just as capable of committing fornication and adultery as any woman. Perhaps, our priests and hierarchs need to reiterate the Church's age old teaching on the matter and why chastity is good for our souls, as well as the purpose of sex and its proper context within marriage. Sadly, man people in our times see these teaches which are for our benefit to be means in which "the Church tries to control us." That simply is not true. It's for our benefit. If one doesn't want God's grace and wants to spit in His face, then he will continue unrepentant in his sin. But, if he wants to sincerely change, he will seek to struggle in following God's will, which includes chastity.

In Christ,
Andrew

[synLeszka]

I find it funny that women constantly talk about how much they enjoy sex before marriage and then after how they saw that their husband doesn't interest them anymore a couple months after marriage.
I know of one case, in which before the marriage, the girl talked about sex everyday but then after matrimony, told us how she was shocked by the book of kama sutra some uncle gave her as a present.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Really? Sex makes someone dirty? Used?

If the only baggage or the most difficult baggage my spouse and I brought to a marriage was simply a colorful sexual history, that would be a miracle.

In the litany of self-centered problems I bring to a marriage, the sex I had before hand is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

Yeah, sexual impurity sure isn't set aside as a different kind of sin in Holy Scripture or anything. Our sexuality certainly isn't the means by which two flesh become one. One who sins sexually certainly doesn't sin against his own body. There is nothing particularly grave about it compared to other sins. Just one in the bunch. Live and let live.

I already stated that comparing people to cars is ridiculous. I was just running with the analogy.

As a married man, I still struggle with sexual sin. So you can put me at the top of the list in the dirty/unclean/impure category. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

[Punch]

Is lying virtue? Vanity? Gluttony? Pride? Judging?

Do many men wring their hands over their potential Christian bride's past in these areas as much as their potential bride's sexual past?

Answer that question honestly.

Read the OT and the NT, all these sins are make us whores and adulterous before God.

But when it comes to women, we judge them so harshly as men in light of their sexual history.

Well, honestly, I have not seen the vices that you mention give someone Herpes or give them AIDS twenty years later.  So, I don’t consider a person’s pre-marital sexual history to be totally irrelevant.  On the other hand, I agree that a previous sexual history may not be the worst thing that a person can come equipped with.  Also, there is the factor of the emotional issues involved with a person’s previous sexual histories.  I have known some misguided women who thought that sex would get someone to love them.  When they found someone who loved them for something other than their poozle, they made pretty good wives.  On the other hand, if the woman was a two bed slut before marriage, what makes one think things will get better after?  I have seen this end of the spectrum, too.  I have to admit that I have absolutely NO respect for those men that I have known that have tried to bed everything that moves, human or otherwise, before marriage, but then insist that their bride be a virgin.  Seems like a bit of hypocrisy there.

I think that it is best if we abide by the Biblical ideal and save ourselves for our future spouse.  However, Biblical ideals are often not the reality, so some economy needs to be exercised in this matter.  I once read a discussion on the Canons where it was asked why a repenting heretic was censured less than a repentant fornicator or adulterer.  The answer was that a heretic, once he is convinced of the error of his ways, usually does not return to his heresy.  However, sins of the passions are much harder to overcome, and much easier to fall back into.  Promiscuity is certainly a sin of the passions.  While it can be overcome, and certainly forgiven, ignoring such a sin in a potential mate could lead to much trouble and travail later. 

[W.A.Mozart]

Having read the topic I would dare comment on the situation... First of all, I think that there isn't a single orthodox forum without this topic... it is something we all think about... like osmeone said, I was once 17 too and believe me- I didn't know what to do... in time, my views about the premaritals sex evolved- I'm not saying I'm right - but I came to think that fornication is sex without love... this is not mine- I just quote our bishop Porphyrios from the monastery of Kovilj... of course,this doesn't mean we r not responsible for our acts but rather gives our freedom in Christ a new note of responsibility...after all-nothing is absolute except Christ,our Lord

[Irish Hermit]

I just quote our bishop Porphyrios from the monastery of Kovilj...

Small world!  I was formed as a monk at sedmovrata Zica and tonsured there, in the days of Tito.  If you know Kovilj, then you would have known Father Savva from Zealand (Eternal Memory!)  who was one of my spiritual sons before he took up the monastic life.  You may also know another spiritual son from New Zealand, Dionisije, who spent a year at Kovilj as an iskusenik but then shifted to Bodjani, under Father Panaret.

[NicholasMyra]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

[W.A.Mozart]

I just quote our bishop Porphyrios from the monastery of Kovilj...

Small world!  I was formed as a monk at sedmovrata Zica and tonsured there, in the days of Tito.  If you know Kovilj, then you would have known Father Savva from Zealand (Eternal Memory!)  who was one of my spiritual sons before he took up the monastic life.  You may also know another spiritual son from New Zealand, Dionisije, who spent a year at Kovilj as an iskusenik but then shifted to Bodjani, under Father Panaret.

cant say that I know them but I heard about them... I live about 300 kms from kovilj and i went there a couple of times but I have many lectures of bishop Porphyrios and he was the most important persom in my teenage-orthodox days

[Shiny]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

Absolutely. I'm my girl's 7th, but she sincerely says I'm the best so not much to worry about. Initially the pressure was on because I knew her previous sex life.

[orthonorm]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

Absolutely. I'm my girl's 7th, but she sincerely says I'm the best so not much to worry about. Initially the pressure was on because I knew her previous sex life.

I think it is a folly of youth to want to know one's partner's sexual history. Unless they must reveal sexual disease, it rarely is helpful, again unless some trauma was involved that could complicate the relationship.

Young men especially are prone to play Clouseau and then suffer for the knowing.

In my experience, best to know as little as possible.

I truly don't want to know how many, when, etc. I prefer to let things fold naturally with no direct questions or comparisons, etc.

This is advice I would go back and give myself 15 years ago.

 

[orthonorm]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

No doubt. Young men, especially when more insecure than normal, can make a possibly beautiful evening into an interrogation.

Now that I am pretty much "out of the closet" being "religious" women feel they need to let me know this sorta info out of hand. I just don't care and if I hear it, the best case scenario will be some sadness for the fragility of relationships and the pain they cause, the worst: unfounded jealousy and anger.

So I stop those conversations in their tracks. If they need to get something off their chest, I ain't that person to talk to in that situation, unless again it concerns STDs or past trauma that could affect a relationship.

[NicholasMyra]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

No doubt. Young men, especially when more insecure than normal, can make a possibly beautiful evening into an interrogation.

Now that I am pretty much "out of the closet" being "religious" women feel they need to let me know this sorta info out of hand. I just don't care and if I hear it, the best case scenario will be some sadness for the fragility of relationships and the pain they cause, the worst: unfounded jealousy and anger.

I think the person the man or woman chooses to be at the time they begin their relationship with you, and afterwards, makes a huge difference in this regard.

There are women and men who regret (not in a sensual-cathartic/self-pitying/unrealistic way, but in a genuine and responsible way) or do not define themselves based on, having had multiple sexual encounters. And then there are men and women who worry about not having had enough sexual partners to fill some "life quota", who insecurely deliberately tempt weak partners with jealousy by going on and on about sex in past relationships, and who "judge according to the flesh", as Christ said.

[orthonorm]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

No doubt. Young men, especially when more insecure than normal, can make a possibly beautiful evening into an interrogation.

Now that I am pretty much "out of the closet" being "religious" women feel they need to let me know this sorta info out of hand. I just don't care and if I hear it, the best case scenario will be some sadness for the fragility of relationships and the pain they cause, the worst: unfounded jealousy and anger.

I think the person the man or woman chooses to be at the time they begin their relationship with you, and afterwards, makes a huge difference in this regard.

There are women and men who regret (not in a sensual-cathartic/self-pitying/unrealistic way, but in a genuine and responsible way) or do not define themselves based on, having had multiple sexual encounters. And then there are men and women who worry about not having had enough sexual partners to fill some "life quota", who insecurely deliberately tempt weak partners with jealousy by going on and on about sex in past relationships, and who "judge according to the flesh", as Christ said.

I don't think we are in disagreement per se, since I bet our solution to the situation would be similar. Slow and steady. Get to know the person over time managing the obvious fantasies and excitement of an early romance with the sobriety of reality and wisdom learned through experience or given by others.  Shakes out the possible nonsense later.

I find discussing "values" held currently more interesting and helpful than "behavior" of the past, and seeing if the person lives out those professed values and more importantly if I do.

But when your 20, good luck with that.

[NicholasMyra]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

No doubt. Young men, especially when more insecure than normal, can make a possibly beautiful evening into an interrogation.

Now that I am pretty much "out of the closet" being "religious" women feel they need to let me know this sorta info out of hand. I just don't care and if I hear it, the best case scenario will be some sadness for the fragility of relationships and the pain they cause, the worst: unfounded jealousy and anger.

I think the person the man or woman chooses to be at the time they begin their relationship with you, and afterwards, makes a huge difference in this regard.

There are women and men who regret (not in a sensual-cathartic/self-pitying/unrealistic way, but in a genuine and responsible way) or do not define themselves based on, having had multiple sexual encounters. And then there are men and women who worry about not having had enough sexual partners to fill some "life quota", who insecurely deliberately tempt weak partners with jealousy by going on and on about sex in past relationships, and who "judge according to the flesh", as Christ said.

I don't think we are in disagreement per se, since I bet our solution to the situation would be similar. Slow and steady. Get to know the person over time managing the obvious fantasies and excitement of an early romance with the sobriety of reality and wisdom learned through experience or given by others.  Shakes out the possible nonsense later.

Only problem with that: The amount of time varies that people are able to keep up their illusions; values they don't hold, but pretend to, or want to hold, but aren't able.

This doesn't have to be a problem, because we all have our masks.

But when longsuffering committment to a relationship is the faux value, you run into serious problems.  

C'est la vie, I suppose.

Maybe I'll figure more out after 30 years or so.

I find discussing "values" held currently more interesting and helpful than "behavior" of the past, and seeing if the person lives out those professed values and more importantly if I do.

Wish I had heard this advice a few years ago; both parts. Probably wouldn't have listened, though.

[orthonorm]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

No doubt. Young men, especially when more insecure than normal, can make a possibly beautiful evening into an interrogation.

Now that I am pretty much "out of the closet" being "religious" women feel they need to let me know this sorta info out of hand. I just don't care and if I hear it, the best case scenario will be some sadness for the fragility of relationships and the pain they cause, the worst: unfounded jealousy and anger.

I think the person the man or woman chooses to be at the time they begin their relationship with you, and afterwards, makes a huge difference in this regard.

There are women and men who regret (not in a sensual-cathartic/self-pitying/unrealistic way, but in a genuine and responsible way) or do not define themselves based on, having had multiple sexual encounters. And then there are men and women who worry about not having had enough sexual partners to fill some "life quota", who insecurely deliberately tempt weak partners with jealousy by going on and on about sex in past relationships, and who "judge according to the flesh", as Christ said.

I don't think we are in disagreement per se, since I bet our solution to the situation would be similar. Slow and steady. Get to know the person over time managing the obvious fantasies and excitement of an early romance with the sobriety of reality and wisdom learned through experience or given by others.  Shakes out the possible nonsense later.

Only problem with that: The amount of time varies that people are able to keep up their illusions; values they don't hold, but pretend to, or want to hold, but aren't able.

This doesn't have to be a problem, because we all have our masks.

But when longsuffering committment to a relationship is the faux value, you run into serious problems.  

C'est la vie, I suppose.

Maybe I'll figure more out after 30 years or so.

If you are 20, I meant no personal offense. I assumed you were a bit older by the tone of your posts. I am just saying the difference between 20 and even 30 is huge for men.

If you ain't 20 and single, care to say if you are married?

[NicholasMyra]

If you are 20, I meant no personal offense. I assumed you were a bit older by the tone of your posts. I am just saying the difference between 20 and even 30 is huge for men.

I'm a smart-ass youngster, Mr. Orthonorm.  

Not married.

You haven't offended me with any of this, either.

[orthonorm]

If you are 20, I meant no personal offense. I assumed you were a bit older by the tone of your posts. I am just saying the difference between 20 and even 30 is huge for men.

I'm a smart-ass youngster, Mr. Orthonorm.  

Not married.

Well, good for you. You certainly seem to have your head better together than 99% of 20 year old men out there.

BTW, when I talk about time to get to know someone I am talking more than a year or two. If someone can keep up a persona that long, then what can I say. Realistically, with some experience, being intimate with someone for just a few months can begin to show where future small and larger problems will be.

I will never understand my peers wishing for being younger again, I am happy to not be 20 or if I were, that I were more like you.

In the States it is particularly difficult since we have such a delayed adolescence here.

You will be in my prayers!

A top poster by quality and young to boot!

[CBGardner]

I'm a guy, 17, and I have had the idea in my head for many years that sex is to be reserved for marriage. I can recall making the commitment to myself a long time ago.

Anyway, this issue is among one of the few that I feel alienates me from my male friends, including some who are Christian. They either take a less strict stance on the issue, or they reject it outright, with the exception of one. (It's not as if I act holier-than-thou or condemn them. I've said, "I don't approve of what you do, but I don't look down on you" countless times!) I'm not made fun of or anything, but I do feel internally alienated.

Basically, I wanted to use the Internet to find like-minded folk, but a Google search is not proving to be very fruitful. This does, quite honestly, make me wonder if I am normal, sometimes. So, I'd like to hear from men on this forum, particularly younger ones, who can demonstrate that I am not alone in this area.

Abba Antony said: "A time is coming when people will go insane. And when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying: 'You are crazy; you are not like us."

I really like that quote. Thanks for sharing Ialmisry.

[NicholasMyra]

If you are 20, I meant no personal offense. I assumed you were a bit older by the tone of your posts. I am just saying the difference between 20 and even 30 is huge for men.

I'm a smart-ass youngster, Mr. Orthonorm.  

Not married.

BTW, when I talk about time to get to know someone I am talking more than a year or two. If someone can keep up a persona that long, then what can I say.

Thanks.

I waited a year. Wasn't long enough for her, definitely not long enough for me to see my false ideal "martyr" self fall apart into a boring old angsty human.  

You will be in my prayers!

A top poster by quality and young to boot!

Thank you, you will be in mine as well, when I am not too lazy to remember to follow my prayer rule.  

[CBGardner]

Guys who care about a woman's sexual history are simply insecure. Add that one to my list above sex as well.

We're programmed to care, and it can hit hard.

That doesn't mean the "caring" is justified, but it does mean there's a reality to overcome.

Absolutely. I'm my girl's 7th, but she sincerely says I'm the best so not much to worry about. Initially the pressure was on because I knew her previous sex life.

I think it is a folly of youth to want to know one's partner's sexual history. Unless they must reveal sexual disease, it rarely is helpful, again unless some trauma was involved that could complicate the relationship.

Young men especially are prone to play Clouseau and then suffer for the knowing.

In my experience, best to know as little as possible.

I truly don't want to know how many, when, etc. I prefer to let things fold naturally with no direct questions or comparisons, etc.

This is advice I would go back and give myself 15 years ago.

 

I'd actually agree with this in practice. In my past I spent too much time wringing my hands and feeling inadequate knowing about what the girls I've been with did while we weren't together. I'd be interested in who that person is now, not who they were.

[IsmiLiora]

Abba Antony said: "A time is coming when people will go insane. And when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying: 'You are crazy; you are not like us."

I really like that quote. Thanks for sharing Ialmisry.

The problem comes when insane people use that quote to justify their insane ideas (not talking about either of you!)

[Shiny]

Well with my girl there was past trauma regarding abuse. I only brought up the partners thing more so tongue in cheek. It doesn't bother me if I'm her 7th or 70th. As long as I perform the best, that's all that matters to me.

[SolEX01]

Well with my girl there was past trauma regarding abuse. I only brought up the partners thing more so tongue in cheek. It doesn't bother me if I'm her 7th or 70th. As long as I perform the best, that's all that matters to me.

How will you react if your girlfriend finds someone (e.g. #8+) who performs "better" than you?

One poster had the right idea to not look back and relive one's youth; Since nearly all relationships originate from social networking websites or the Internet, I think I'll enjoy my self-imposed celibacy as I see young people burn themselves out from too much stimulation.  As Isa said, some of you will be calling me insane as well.   

[akimori makoto]

Well with my girl there was past trauma regarding abuse. I only brought up the partners thing more so tongue in cheek. It doesn't bother me if I'm her 7th or 70th. As long as I perform the best, that's all that matters to me.

Ever been traded in before?

People are not masturbatory devices which can be ranked on a scale of performance.

You will know you have really made it when it doesn't even occur to either of you to compare the performance of the other to a past partner, the same way that how good you are at cooking or account-keeping doesn't matter to the person who loves you.

[Shlomlokh]

Well with my girl there was past trauma regarding abuse. I only brought up the partners thing more so tongue in cheek. It doesn't bother me if I'm her 7th or 70th. As long as I perform the best, that's all that matters to me.

How will you react if your girlfriend finds someone (e.g. #8+) who performs "better" than you?

One poster had the right idea to not look back and relive one's youth; Since nearly all relationships originate from social networking websites or the Internet, I think I'll enjoy my self-imposed celibacy as I see young people burn themselves out from too much stimulation.  As Isa said, some of you will be calling me insane as well.   

Not I. I'll be standing right there next to you, brother. But I find parts of this thread tragic.

In Christ,
Andrew

[SolEX01]

Not I. I'll be standing right there next to you, brother. But I find parts of this thread tragic.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thanks for the support.   

There are a number of threads that these young guys have started on Premarital Sex or have resurrected dormant threads on the topic.  We faithful have to fight the good fight on this topic and others like this topic.       

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