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Author Topic: Papal Infallibility and the morality of 'Exsurge Domine'  (Read 4378 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2011, 10:02:55 PM »

Of course I realize from Isa that Orthodoxy promotes martyrdom rather than defense but that is again another one of the deep chasms between us.  I am going to need to read up on the millions of Orthodox martyrs who have resisted all wars during the long bloody centuries in Europe.  There must be many books on the subject since it is so unusual for a people to be so willing to die for the principle of peace rather than fight to defend.

That's not really the direction that I was going. We have many saints who were soldiers (St George for example), every week we pray for our armed forces, and there are a couple of guidelines found in the NT regarding how someone serving in the military can do their duty and still be faithful.

I understand that.  And I respect it as a lesser evil when it is a lesser evil.

I also know that heretic was reserved for those who were most violent and destructive.  I am not suggesting that each and every case of an execution of a heretic was justified...any more than I am blind enough to think that every act of war is just, simply because the war may be a lesser evil.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2011, 10:36:40 PM »

There is a difference between that and "killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit".

Is there?  Is there really a difference?  Explain it to me please.

But before you do show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.
Quote
Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God. I hoped to find you as faithful and as zealous in the service of God as I had supposed you to be. But if there is in you any deformity or crookedness contrary to God's law, with divine help I will do my best to remove it. For God has put you as stewards over his family to minister to it. Happy indeed will you be if he finds you faithful in your stewardship. You are called shepherds; see that you do not act as hirelings. But be true shepherds, with your crooks always in your hands. Do not go to sleep, but guard on all sides the flock committed to you. For if through your carelessness or negligence a wolf carries away one of your sheep, you will surely lose the reward laid up for you with God. And after you have been bitterly scourged with remorse for your faults-, you will be fiercely overwhelmed in hell, the abode of death. For according to the gospel you are the salt of the earth [Matt. 5:13]. But if you fall short in your duty, how, it may be asked, can it be salted? O how great the need of salting! It is indeed necessary for you to correct with the salt of wisdom this foolish people which is so devoted to the pleasures of this -world, lest the Lord, when He may wish to speak to them, find them putrefied by their sins unsalted and stinking. For if He, shall find worms, that is, sins, In them, because you have been negligent in your duty, He will command them as worthless to be thrown into the abyss of unclean things. And because you cannot restore to Him His great loss, He will surely condemn you and drive you from His loving presence. But the man who applies this salt should be prudent, provident, modest, learned, peaceable, watchful, pious, just, equitable, and pure. For how can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you. If you wish to be the friends of God, gladly do the things which you know will please Him. You must especially let all matters that pertain to the church be controlled by the law of the church. And be careful that simony does not take root among you, lest both those who buy and those who sell [church offices] be beaten with the scourges of the Lord through narrow streets and driven into the place of destruction and confusion. Keep the church and the clergy in all its grades entirely free from the secular power. See that the tithes that belong to God are faithfully paid from all the produce of the land; let them not be sold or withheld. If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anthematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his.

"You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."

After these and various other matters had been attended to, all who were present, clergy and people, gave thanks to God and agreed to the pope's proposition. They all faithfully promised to keep the decrees. Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Empire of the Romans] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

Urban II: Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095

Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing.

Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified b His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html
Deus vult!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:38:21 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2011, 10:42:40 PM »

There is a difference between that and "killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit".

Is there?  Is there really a difference?  Explain it to me please.

But before you do show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.

And remember to say that executing heretics is not AGAINST the will of the Holy Spirit is not the equivalent of saying that executing heretics IS the will of the Holy Spirit.  IF it were the equivalent then NO Orthodox person EVER would be allowed to go to war.

M.

I used "Muslims" only to fit the context of what you quoted. Also there is a difference between identifying and killing a person based on religious views and based on protecting your home. It's not OK to kill people just because they disagree with you. It is OK to protect your home, family, and innocent people, and even then anything done that is normally against the will of God (killing or hurting for example) should still be confessed.

Since when did the Catholic Church, as a part of their moral theology,  kill people JUST because they were in disagreement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2011, 10:44:53 PM »

Yes.  We know how you feel about the Turban and the Tiara.  We hope that this is remembered when the proper time comes to us.

There is a difference between that and "killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit".

Is there?  Is there really a difference?  Explain it to me please.

But before you do show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.
Quote
Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God. I hoped to find you as faithful and as zealous in the service of God as I had supposed you to be. But if there is in you any deformity or crookedness contrary to God's law, with divine help I will do my best to remove it. For God has put you as stewards over his family to minister to it. Happy indeed will you be if he finds you faithful in your stewardship. You are called shepherds; see that you do not act as hirelings. But be true shepherds, with your crooks always in your hands. Do not go to sleep, but guard on all sides the flock committed to you. For if through your carelessness or negligence a wolf carries away one of your sheep, you will surely lose the reward laid up for you with God. And after you have been bitterly scourged with remorse for your faults-, you will be fiercely overwhelmed in hell, the abode of death. For according to the gospel you are the salt of the earth [Matt. 5:13]. But if you fall short in your duty, how, it may be asked, can it be salted? O how great the need of salting! It is indeed necessary for you to correct with the salt of wisdom this foolish people which is so devoted to the pleasures of this -world, lest the Lord, when He may wish to speak to them, find them putrefied by their sins unsalted and stinking. For if He, shall find worms, that is, sins, In them, because you have been negligent in your duty, He will command them as worthless to be thrown into the abyss of unclean things. And because you cannot restore to Him His great loss, He will surely condemn you and drive you from His loving presence. But the man who applies this salt should be prudent, provident, modest, learned, peaceable, watchful, pious, just, equitable, and pure. For how can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you. If you wish to be the friends of God, gladly do the things which you know will please Him. You must especially let all matters that pertain to the church be controlled by the law of the church. And be careful that simony does not take root among you, lest both those who buy and those who sell [church offices] be beaten with the scourges of the Lord through narrow streets and driven into the place of destruction and confusion. Keep the church and the clergy in all its grades entirely free from the secular power. See that the tithes that belong to God are faithfully paid from all the produce of the land; let them not be sold or withheld. If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anthematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his.

"You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."

After these and various other matters had been attended to, all who were present, clergy and people, gave thanks to God and agreed to the pope's proposition. They all faithfully promised to keep the decrees. Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Empire of the Romans] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

Urban II: Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095

Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing.

Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified b His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html
Deus vult!
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ialmisry
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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2011, 10:49:00 PM »

Of course I realize from Isa that Orthodoxy promotes martyrdom rather than defense but that is again another one of the deep chasms between us.  I am going to need to read up on the millions of Orthodox martyrs who have resisted all wars during the long bloody centuries in Europe.  There must be many books on the subject since it is so unusual for a people to be so willing to die for the principle of peace rather than fight to defend.

That's not really the direction that I was going. We have many saints who were soldiers (St George for example), every week we pray for our armed forces, and there are a couple of guidelines found in the NT regarding how someone serving in the military can do their duty and still be faithful.
EM wasn't going in that direction either. Don't let disingenuity confuse you.  She is trying to avoid all those long bloody centuries in Europe caused by the Vatican's pursuit of heretics.
Quote
Sustained by such national and factional rivalries throughout Catholic Christianity, the schism continued after the deaths of both initial claimants; Boniface IX, crowned at Rome in 1389, and Benedict XIII, who reigned in Avignon from 1394, maintained their rival courts. When Boniface died in 1404, the eight cardinals of the Roman conclave offered to refrain from electing a new pope if Benedict would resign; but when his legates refused on his behalf, the Roman party then proceeded to elect Pope Innocent VII.

In the intense partisanship characteristic of the middle ages, the schism engendered a fanatical hatred noted by Johan Huizinga:[1] when the town of Bruges went over to the "obedience" of Avignon, a great number of people left to follow their trade in a city of Urbanist allegiance; "in 1382, the oriflamme, which might only be unfurled in a holy cause, was taken up against the Flemings, because they were Urbanists, that is, infidels"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Schism#Consequences
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2011, 10:54:01 PM »

Yes.  We know how you feel about the Turban and the Tiara.  We hope that this is remembered when the proper time comes to us.

you asked of it
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.

and all you can respond with is my "feelings?"
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2011, 11:17:04 PM »

Yes.  We know how you feel about the Turban and the Tiara.  We hope that this is remembered when the proper time comes to us.

you asked of it
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.

and all you can respond with is my "feelings?"

There is no call in that document to kill Muslims because the Holy Spirit desires it.

The very fact that you'd use it as an example is nothing more than a reflection of your feelings toward the Roman Church...and desire to twist everything into something hate filled...

Of course no Orthodox believer ever killed a Muslim just because...right?

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ialmisry
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2011, 11:27:41 PM »

Yes.  We know how you feel about the Turban and the Tiara.  We hope that this is remembered when the proper time comes to us.

you asked of it
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.

and all you can respond with is my "feelings?"

There is no call in that document to kill Muslims because the Holy Spirit desires it.
No, He "commands it," though I though the "vult" of "Deo vult" also had the connotation of "desire/want."
On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life." Have you all changed that part of the Creed too?

The very fact that you'd use it as an example is nothing more than a reflection of your feelings toward the Roman Church...and desire to twist everything into something hate filled...

Be careful what you ask for
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.
you might get it.

Of course no Orthodox believer ever killed a Muslim just because...right?
The issue has always been what those in authority have said with the voice of the Church, or their ecclesiastical organization, not the acts or statements those who claim to speak or act according to their Church or ecclesiastical organization, but with no authority.

Your supreme pontiff said it. Your correligionists believed (and acted on) it. That settles it. Deo lo vult.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:27:58 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2011, 11:33:27 PM »

As I said...bring me the library full of the millions of Orthodox who lay down in front of the enemy and have no notion of God's justice which is also his mercy.  Bring me the exhortations of the episcopate that tells them that God commands that they do NOT defend themselves...or their allies in Christ...or at least those who used to be their allies in Christ.

Perhaps that is why so often the Second Rome ignored First Rome's pleas for help...eh?

Yes.  We know how you feel about the Turban and the Tiara.  We hope that this is remembered when the proper time comes to us.

you asked of it
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.

and all you can respond with is my "feelings?"

There is no call in that document to kill Muslims because the Holy Spirit desires it.
No, He "commands it," though I though the "vult" of "Deo vult" also had the connotation of "desire/want."
On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life." Have you all changed that part of the Creed too?

The very fact that you'd use it as an example is nothing more than a reflection of your feelings toward the Roman Church...and desire to twist everything into something hate filled...

Be careful what you ask for
show me where the Catholic Church...my one holy catholic and apostolic Church says that killing Muslims is the will of the Holy Spirit...I need to see that very positive declaritive first.
you might get it.

Of course no Orthodox believer ever killed a Muslim just because...right?
The issue has always been what those in authority have said with the voice of the Church, or their ecclesiastical organization, not the acts or statements those who claim to speak or act according to their Church or ecclesiastical organization, but with no authority.

Your supreme pontiff said it. Your correligionists believed (and acted on) it. That settles it. Deo lo vult.
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2011, 12:20:20 AM »

As I said...

Many posts, nothing said.

What you asked for you were given, and then you try to change the subject.

bring me the library full of the millions of Orthodox who lay down in front of the enemy and have no notion of God's justice which is also his mercy.



Bring me the exhortations of the episcopate that tells them that God commands that they do NOT defend themselves...or their allies in Christ...or at least those who used to be their allies in Christ.
Quote
Peter, therefore, taking courage from His voice, and from what had already happened, arms himself against the assailants, And how, says some one, does he who was bidden not to have a scrip, not to have two coats, possess a sword? Methinks he had prepared it long before, as fearing this very thing which came to pass. But if you say, How does he, who was forbidden even to strike a blow with the hand, become a manslayer? He certainly had been commanded not to defend himself, but here he did not defend himself, but his Master. And besides, they were not as yet perfect or complete. But if you desire to see Peter endued with heavenly wisdom, you shall after this behold him wounded, and bearing it meekly, suffering ten thousand dreadful things, and not moved to anger. But Jesus here also works a miracle, both showing that we ought to do good to those who do evil to us, and revealing His own power. He therefore restored the servant's ear, and said to Peter, that All they that take the sword shall perish by the sword Matthew 26:52; and as He did in the case of the basin, when He relaxed his vehemence by a threat, so also here. The Evangelist adds the name of the servant, because the thing done was very great, not only because He healed him, but because He healed one who had come against Him, and who shortly after would buffet Him, and because He stayed the war which was like to have been kindled from this circumstance against the disciples. For this cause the Evangelist has put the name, so that the men of that time might search and enquire diligently whether these things had really come to pass. And not without a cause does he mention the right ear, but as I think desiring to show the impetuosity of the Apostle, that he almost aimed at the head itself. Yet Jesus not only restrains him by a threat, but also calms him by other words, saying, The cup which My Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?
Showing, that what was done proceeded not from their power, but from His consent, and declaring that He was not one opposed to God but obedient to the Father even unto death.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.iv.lxxxv.html

Perhaps that is why so often the Second Rome ignored First Rome's pleas for help...eh?



Don't know what you are taking about....eh?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:21:04 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2011, 12:32:59 AM »

And you say all this is evil? 

As I said...

Many posts, nothing said.

What you asked for you were given, and then you try to change the subject.

bring me the library full of the millions of Orthodox who lay down in front of the enemy and have no notion of God's justice which is also his mercy.



Bring me the exhortations of the episcopate that tells them that God commands that they do NOT defend themselves...or their allies in Christ...or at least those who used to be their allies in Christ.
Quote
Peter, therefore, taking courage from His voice, and from what had already happened, arms himself against the assailants, And how, says some one, does he who was bidden not to have a scrip, not to have two coats, possess a sword? Methinks he had prepared it long before, as fearing this very thing which came to pass. But if you say, How does he, who was forbidden even to strike a blow with the hand, become a manslayer? He certainly had been commanded not to defend himself, but here he did not defend himself, but his Master. And besides, they were not as yet perfect or complete. But if you desire to see Peter endued with heavenly wisdom, you shall after this behold him wounded, and bearing it meekly, suffering ten thousand dreadful things, and not moved to anger. But Jesus here also works a miracle, both showing that we ought to do good to those who do evil to us, and revealing His own power. He therefore restored the servant's ear, and said to Peter, that All they that take the sword shall perish by the sword Matthew 26:52; and as He did in the case of the basin, when He relaxed his vehemence by a threat, so also here. The Evangelist adds the name of the servant, because the thing done was very great, not only because He healed him, but because He healed one who had come against Him, and who shortly after would buffet Him, and because He stayed the war which was like to have been kindled from this circumstance against the disciples. For this cause the Evangelist has put the name, so that the men of that time might search and enquire diligently whether these things had really come to pass. And not without a cause does he mention the right ear, but as I think desiring to show the impetuosity of the Apostle, that he almost aimed at the head itself. Yet Jesus not only restrains him by a threat, but also calms him by other words, saying, The cup which My Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?
Showing, that what was done proceeded not from their power, but from His consent, and declaring that He was not one opposed to God but obedient to the Father even unto death.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.iv.lxxxv.html

Perhaps that is why so often the Second Rome ignored First Rome's pleas for help...eh?



Don't know what you are taking about....eh?
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