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Author Topic: Ancestral Thing-amajigger  (Read 846 times) Average Rating: 0
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mozartboy02
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« on: January 18, 2011, 11:10:08 PM »

What is Original Sin called by the Orthodox and what is the Orthodox view of it?
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 11:13:00 PM »

At the risk of oversimplification (and attributing to Orthodoxy something that only a certain percentage within Orthodoxy hold to), a common term is ancestral sin, and a key difference between the Orthodox view and the Catholic view is, supposedly, that the Orthodox don't attach all that guilt stuff. They talk about being born into a sinful world and whatnot, but people aren't actually given some type of inherent/automatic guilt. Even though we all sinned in Adam. But not really. Kinda. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to clean up the mess I've made  police
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 11:13:59 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 11:24:07 PM »

Even though we all sinned in Adam.

Just for fun, give me the source of this little snippet.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 12:20:53 AM »

These seem to hint at it...

"But I am so old fashioned and such a philosopher as to believe that one heaven is common to all; and that so is the revolution of the sun and the moon, and the order and arrangement of the stars; and that all have in Common an equal share and profit in day and night, and also change of seasons, rains, fruits, and quickening power of the air; and that the flowing rivers are a common and abundant wealth to all; and that one and the same is the Earth, the mother and the tomb, from which we were taken, and to which we shall return, none having a greater share than another. And further, above this, we have in common reason, the Law, the Prophets, the very Sufferings of Christ, by which we were all without exception created anew, who partake of the same Adam, and were led astray by the serpent and slain by sin, and are saved by the heavenly Adam and brought back by the tree of shame to the tree of life from whence we had fallen." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 33, 9

"And not by the aforesaid things alone has the Lord manifested Himself, but [He has done this] also by means of His passion. For doing away with [the effects of] that disobedience of man which had taken place at the beginning by the occasion of a tree, 'He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross;' (Phil. 2:8 ) rectifying that disobedience which had occurred by reason of a tree, through that obedience which was [wrought out] upon the tree [of the cross]. Now He would not have come to do away, by means of that same [image], the disobedience which had been incurred towards our Maker if He proclaimed another Father. But inasmuch as it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word, so was it also by these same that He brought in obedience and consent as respects His Word; by which things He clearly shows forth God Himself, whom indeed we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, being made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 16, 3

But after thinking about it, I'm not sure. See, this is where you're supposed to clean things up Wink
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 01:56:22 AM »

Those simply seem to state that we are all Adam, with which I totally agree. Does that mean we bear the personal guilt of Adam's sin? Well now that depends if Adam is a historical person or a mythological archetype, doesn't it?  Wink
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 06:09:29 AM »

Those simply seem to state that we are all Adam, with which I totally agree. Does that mean we bear the personal guilt of Adam's sin? Well now that depends if Adam is a historical person or a mythological archetype, doesn't it?  Wink

Yeah, I think I was incorrect in what I said in my previous post. As for the literal/mythical part... I'll leave that to you other fine people here  Wink angel
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"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »

What is the correct order that adam fell into sin?

Embarrassment, pride, envy, shame, guilt?
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Thankful
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 04:43:52 PM »

An article on the View of Sin in the Early Church.  I read this as we were converting and much appreciated it. 
http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/da42e6049df1d08bff1865c1ac19e759.pdf
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 04:44:23 PM by Thankful » Logged

mozartboy02
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 09:09:21 PM »

An article on the View of Sin in the Early Church.  I read this as we were converting and much appreciated it. 
http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/da42e6049df1d08bff1865c1ac19e759.pdf

Thanks, that helped a lot!
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 03:30:05 AM »

What is Original Sin called by the Orthodox and what is the Orthodox view of it?

There is no one phrasing. I have heard "ancestral sin", "original sin", "ancestral curse", "Adamic curse", "fallen nature", and perhaps some others that are not coming to mind. None of these are preferred as the one terminology as in the West (though the first is the most common), most likely because the issue isn't really treated the same way.

The essential nature of the Orthodox view is that we lost the wholeness of the communion with God we were created to be in, we suffered a spiritual death, or a wounding of the life of our spirits, we lost the special indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was restored at Pentecost, and we incurred certain "corruptions" (which were actually natural to the carnal part of us but which God would have protected us from have we not sinned) such as sickness and death. We do not believe that this cursed state involves a moral implication of the sin or Adam, or that it is attributed to us as a personal sin, or that it comes with guilt or a moral "stain", but that guilt only comes when we ourselves have personally knowingly and willingly sinned.
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