Author Topic: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?  (Read 38900 times)

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Offline ChristopherRA

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2011, 08:32:28 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2011, 09:01:16 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.

I think I saw it on Simpsons, too.

I'm going to need this.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2011, 09:21:56 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.
Done where? All "RC forums" I've seen ban Orthodox posters just for sticking to the Orthodox view.

Can you link to any forum post where an Orthodox called you all 12 year olds?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2011, 09:34:23 PM »

Actually, there is that too, with all the overlaping jurisdicitions.


I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney.  If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.
I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:
1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions
2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!
What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.
No, I think you misunderstood, as always.

No, I just added clarity, as always.

We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.
We would have had to start believing in Purgatory in order to be able to stop believing in it, which would be two changes. And our refusal to abandon the teaching of the Fathers on Ancetral sin in order to adopt the Scholastics' misunderstaning thereof, doesn't constitute a change. So you are right, you don't change our teaching the way our Church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin: we never believed in Purgatory and stuck to the Faith delieverd once and for all to the saints by the Apostles, and your ecclesiastical organization changes your teachings by fiat of a one man church, claiming new and novel teachings that the Apostles never dreamed of were "always beleived" two thousand years after the fact. Supreme Pontiff Winston Smith, what would St. Lerins say?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:35:53 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #139 on: January 21, 2011, 09:36:42 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.
Done where? All "RC forums" I've seen ban Orthodox posters just for sticking to the Orthodox view.

Can you link to any forum post where an Orthodox called you all 12 year olds?

Ha... Ha... Ha ha...  <- like this

I'm going to need this.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #140 on: January 21, 2011, 09:59:20 PM »
I am happy to know that no Orthodox Christian has ever waged war, or fought in a war.  It is a credit to the faith that you are that pure.


What fis the techinical term for the fallacy this is demonstrating?

False Witness...an objective evil

I don't think False Witness is the correct term for this fallacy:
Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.

As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.
Produce a statement of the Orthodox Church waging and condoning and blessing war, and you will have a point. Otherwise, you are trying to make apple juice from oranges.

Slide....

No blessing of the troops either I suppose.
These troops?

No.


You will let us know if you find anything of the sort, won't you?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:01:22 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #141 on: January 21, 2011, 10:00:29 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.
Done where? All "RC forums" I've seen ban Orthodox posters just for sticking to the Orthodox view.

Can you link to any forum post where an Orthodox called you all 12 year olds?

Ha... Ha... Ha ha...  <- like this
IOW you can't.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #142 on: January 21, 2011, 10:05:24 PM »


Not to mention all your Protestant spawn.
You mean your coreligionists?
No Orthodox bishop laid hands on Luther, Zwingli, Calvin or Cramner. All products of the Vatican's scholasticism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #143 on: January 21, 2011, 10:07:11 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Don't worry!  The Pope knows.  He knows that when  he concludes Christological Agreements with the Oriental Orthodox episcopate he is not concluding one with the Eastern Orthodox episcopate.

I guess that is why he is elected Pope -because he is smarter then the average Catholic and he knows these things.
He definitely is. :) Pope Benedict is quite the brilliant and prolific writer.

So when you said "No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is" you didn't really mean no one.  You just meant that you can't?

I know where it is. But I don't think you guys do.
Not here
Quote
The Holy See's Annuario Pontificio gives the following list of Eastern Catholic Churches with residence and of countries (or other political areas, consisting of more than country) in which they possess an episcopal ecclesiastical jurisdiction (date of union or foundation in parenthesis, membership in brackets):

Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Cairo, [163,849], Egypt (1741)
Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Addis Ababa, [208,093], Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
Antiochian or West Syrian liturgical tradition:
Maronite Church[38] (patriarchate): Bkerke, [3,105,278], Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Beirut,[131,692], Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church[39] (major archepiscopate): Trivandrum, [412,640], India, United States (1930)
Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church[40] (patriarchate): Beirut, [375,182], Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestinian Authority, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)
Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church[41] (patriarchate): Baghdad, [418,194], Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church[42](major archepiscopate): Ernakulam, [3,902,089], India, Middle East, Europe, America (Never separated)
Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
Albanian Catholic Church (apostolic administration): [3,510], Albania (1628)
Belarusian Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): [10,000], Belarus (1596)
Bulgarian Catholic Church[43] (apostolic exarchate): Sofia, [10,107], Bulgaria (1861)
Eparchy of Križevci[44] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Križevci, Ruski Krstur [21,480] + [22,653], Croatia, Serbia, and Montenegro (1611)
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church[45] (two apostolic exarchates): Athens, [2,325], Greece, Turkey (1829)
Hungarian Catholic Church[46] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Nyiregyháza, [290,000], Hungary (1646)
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): [63,240], Italy (Never separated)
Macedonian Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Skopje, [11,491], Republic of Macedonia (1918)
Melkite Greek Catholic Church[47] (patriarchate): Damascus, [1,346,635], Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
Romanian Church United with Rome[48] (major archiepiscopate): Blaj, [776,529] Romania, United States (1697)
Russian Catholic Church[49](two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
Ruthenian Catholic Church[50] (a sui juris metropolia [51], an eparchy [52], and an apostolic exarchate [53]): Uzhhorod, Pittsburgh, [594,465], United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
Slovak Catholic Church (metropolia): Prešov, [243,335], Slovakia, Canada (1646)
Ukrainian Catholic Church[54] (major archiepiscopate): Kiev, [4,223,425], Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2011, 10:16:49 PM »


Not to mention all your Protestant spawn.
You mean your coreligionists?

 :D  Always want it both ways.

If the spawn are set in their ways then they belong to Catholics...

But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  
No, if they are looking to Orhtodoxy and are received, then they belong to the Catholics. "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved..." No, that's the Vatican's style. We don't have much in common with any of the Protestants in any of their forms, nor alike in our thinking.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2011, 10:22:11 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.
Don't confuse her with the facts....

even "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved..."  between OO and EO is problematic, let alone the Protestants.

Odd. Elijammaria likes to "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved... " when it comes to the Vatican's talks with the Orthodox. She gets rather upset when we disagree with her on that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2011, 10:22:56 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2011, 10:35:32 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts. 

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2011, 10:39:42 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.
Don't confuse her with the facts....

even "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved..."  between OO and EO is problematic, let alone the Protestants.

Odd. Elijammaria likes to "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved... " when it comes to the Vatican's talks with the Orthodox. She gets rather upset when we disagree with her on that.

You have to be someone I care for personally before you can upset me by telling me the Church teaches something I know she does not teach.  Otherwise its just one more dead end... :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2011, 10:57:37 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:01:22 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #150 on: January 21, 2011, 10:58:01 PM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.
Done where? All "RC forums" I've seen ban Orthodox posters just for sticking to the Orthodox view.

Can you link to any forum post where an Orthodox called you all 12 year olds?

Ha... Ha... Ha ha...  <- like this
IOW you can't.

In other words it was a joke. Lighten up.

I'm going to need this.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #151 on: January 21, 2011, 11:27:48 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.

I have no idea...I referenced this Forum and copied the links I found here to my Yahoogroup, so I know I got them here.  Someone...Papist or someone else maybe said that they thought they had seen them here.  So I know I didn't pull it out of my hat.  I had no knowledge of Russian Neo-Nazi's till then.

I posted it on Irenikon with the suggestion that it might serve to gain some understanding between the two confessions.  I did not have you in mind.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #152 on: January 21, 2011, 11:29:20 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.

I have no idea...I referenced this Forum and copied the links I found here to my Yahoogroup, so I know I got them here.  Someone...Papist or someone else maybe said that they thought they had seen them here.  So I know I didn't pull it out of my hat.  I had no knowledge of Russian Neo-Nazi's till then.

I posted it on Irenikon with the suggestion that it might serve to gain some understanding between the two confessions.  I did not have you in mind.
More hearsay.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #153 on: January 21, 2011, 11:34:57 PM »
Catholics believe that Jesus is God.
Catholics don't believe that the Pope is God.
Therefore, Catholics don't believe the Pope is equal to Jesus.

Ok, the objections have been answered. Can ya'll stop bringing up the stupid idea that Catholics put the Pope on the same level as Christ now? Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.
Never going to happen. If one doe not create reasons why they hate the Catholic Church then they have no reason not to join it. This is what happened to me in 2006. I began realizing little by little that everything I hated about the Catholic Church actually had nothing to do with the Catholic Church at all, but rather it was just my perception of it as seen through the lens of Protestantism. Apparently some Eastern Orthodox Christians look through a similar lens when assessing our Church.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #154 on: January 21, 2011, 11:37:07 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.

I have no idea...I referenced this Forum and copied the links I found here to my Yahoogroup, so I know I got them here.  Someone...Papist or someone else maybe said that they thought they had seen them here.  So I know I didn't pull it out of my hat.  I had no knowledge of Russian Neo-Nazi's till then.

I posted it on Irenikon with the suggestion that it might serve to gain some understanding between the two confessions.  I did not have you in mind.
More hearsay.

Not at all. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #155 on: January 21, 2011, 11:45:51 PM »
Catholics believe that Jesus is God.
Catholics don't believe that the Pope is God.
Therefore, Catholics don't believe the Pope is equal to Jesus.

Ok, the objections have been answered. Can ya'll stop bringing up the stupid idea that Catholics put the Pope on the same level as Christ now? Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.
Never going to happen. If one doe not create reasons why they hate the Catholic Church then they have no reason not to join it. This is what happened to me in 2006. I began realizing little by little that everything I hated about the Catholic Church actually had nothing to do with the Catholic Church at all, but rather it was just my perception of it as seen through the lens of Protestantism. Apparently some Eastern Orthodox Christians look through a similar lens when assessing our Church.
We don't have Protestant lens. We look at the Vatican with the eyes of the Fathers.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2011, 11:50:54 PM »
Catholics believe that Jesus is God.
Catholics don't believe that the Pope is God.
Therefore, Catholics don't believe the Pope is equal to Jesus.

Ok, the objections have been answered. Can ya'll stop bringing up the stupid idea that Catholics put the Pope on the same level as Christ now? Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.
Never going to happen. If one doe not create reasons why they hate the Catholic Church then they have no reason not to join it. This is what happened to me in 2006. I began realizing little by little that everything I hated about the Catholic Church actually had nothing to do with the Catholic Church at all, but rather it was just my perception of it as seen through the lens of Protestantism. Apparently some Eastern Orthodox Christians look through a similar lens when assessing our Church.
We don't have Protestant lens. We look at the Vatican with the eyes of the Fathers.
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2011, 12:00:20 AM »
If one doe not create reasons why they hate the Catholic Church then they have no reason not to join it.

I most certainly don't want to get into these never-ending polemics but that is an absurd thing to say. Why one couldn't disagree with something without hating it?

I don't hate the Catholic church. The most negative feelings I have towards it are sadness and disappointment. But my overall feelings are rather positive.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2011, 12:15:54 AM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.

I have no idea...I referenced this Forum and copied the links I found here to my Yahoogroup, so I know I got them here.  Someone...Papist or someone else maybe said that they thought they had seen them here.  So I know I didn't pull it out of my hat.  I had no knowledge of Russian Neo-Nazi's till then.

I posted it on Irenikon with the suggestion that it might serve to gain some understanding between the two confessions.  I did not have you in mind.
More hearsay.

Not at all. 

This?

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2010/10/blessing-of-orthodoxy-or-death-banner.html

I'm going to need this.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2011, 12:21:09 AM »
I'm glad this topic came up as I was wondering about something myself.  It was brought up earlier but didn't go anywhere.

In Catholicism, Apostolic Succession is understood to remain with the person forever (even if the person is defrocked.)  What's different in Orthodoxy?  Can a bishop or priest enter into schism or heresy and still be considered a cleric?  Or does the power that ordination bestows on a person become dissolved once one enters into the said above?

Apostolic Succession does not remain with a defrocked or heretical/excommunicate clergy... Where did you get that idea?

What remains is the personal relationship between Christ and the man that was forged during his ordination.  That never goes away.

Once the connection with Body of Christ or the Church is severed...there is no longer any clerical relationship between the ordained man and the Church.

Does the Orthodox Church take a laicized Catholic priest into the Church as an Orthodox priest without ordaining him?  Does the Orthodox Church ordain Catholic priests and priest-monks who choose to become Orthodox?

Answering those two questions should tell you something about our respective Church's mutual understandings concerning Holy Orders.

Mary

What are you talking about?  In Catholicism, a priest is always a priest and it IS an indelible character.  Rome permits Last Rites to be performed by a defroked Catholic priest.  Saying Mass or any other function is "illicit but valid".

 I know this is not the case in Orthodoxy.  What I was asking is, since Catholics see A.S. as a personal grace given to them through ordination, how do Orthodox see A.S.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2011, 12:23:51 AM »
Hey guys, I have an idea, lets all go to the RC forums, register there and start opening threads on heated topics designed to produce a reaction, and then insult their priests that respond to the thread, and call them all 12 year olds when they logically rebut our arguments!

Already done.
Done where? All "RC forums" I've seen ban Orthodox posters just for sticking to the Orthodox view.

Can you link to any forum post where an Orthodox called you all 12 year olds?

SHOCK...


not

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2011, 12:24:35 AM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...
wouldn't mind to quote something from this Forum on that, would you?

BTW I found the reference to Orthodox priests who get themselves involved with Neo-Nazi groups in Russia and some reference to "Orthodoxy or Die" T-shirts.  

There are links and a video where the priests are referenced.

Papist was right.  I found them here and referenced them elsewhere.

M.
Oh, where? a search under your username for "neo-nazi" brought up nothing of the sort.

I have no idea...I referenced this Forum and copied the links I found here to my Yahoogroup, so I know I got them here.  Someone...Papist or someone else maybe said that they thought they had seen them here.  So I know I didn't pull it out of my hat.  I had no knowledge of Russian Neo-Nazi's till then.

I posted it on Irenikon with the suggestion that it might serve to gain some understanding between the two confessions.  I did not have you in mind.
More hearsay.

Not at all. 

This?

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2010/10/blessing-of-orthodoxy-or-death-banner.html
I didn't see a swastika. Must be small.

As someone posted there, looks like a pirate flag.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ignatius

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2011, 12:35:05 AM »

We don't have Protestant lens. We look at the Vatican with the eyes of the Fathers.

Clearly not 'all' of them.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2011, 12:42:32 AM »
I'm glad this topic came up as I was wondering about something myself.  It was brought up earlier but didn't go anywhere.

In Catholicism, Apostolic Succession is understood to remain with the person forever (even if the person is defrocked.)  What's different in Orthodoxy?  Can a bishop or priest enter into schism or heresy and still be considered a cleric?  Or does the power that ordination bestows on a person become dissolved once one enters into the said above?

Apostolic Succession does not remain with a defrocked or heretical/excommunicate clergy... Where did you get that idea?

What remains is the personal relationship between Christ and the man that was forged during his ordination.  That never goes away.

Once the connection with Body of Christ or the Church is severed...there is no longer any clerical relationship between the ordained man and the Church.

Does the Orthodox Church take a laicized Catholic priest into the Church as an Orthodox priest without ordaining him?  Does the Orthodox Church ordain Catholic priests and priest-monks who choose to become Orthodox?

Answering those two questions should tell you something about our respective Church's mutual understandings concerning Holy Orders.

Mary

What are you talking about?  In Catholicism, a priest is always a priest and it IS an indelible character.  Rome permits Last Rites to be performed by a defroked Catholic priest.  Saying Mass or any other function is "illicit but valid".

 I know this is not the case in Orthodoxy.  What I was asking is, since Catholics see A.S. as a personal grace given to them through ordination, how do Orthodox see A.S.

What are you talking about?   

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2011, 12:55:10 AM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

But of course they are Catholic Episcopates.  It's in their names - the old CATHOLIC Church, the Polish National CATHOLIC Church.
So? BTW, ya'll are over in another thread about not being called Father by a particular OO member of the forum.

That's a very peculiar way to interpret my question in the OO section of the forum.  I asked if Chris' signature about non  recognition of EO clergy is actually the teaching of the Oriental Orthodox. I was told by Father Peter (Coptic Orthodox) that it is not the teaching.

It had absolutely nothing to do with whether I get called "Father" or not.  It was a question about Oriental theology.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #165 on: January 22, 2011, 12:59:01 AM »

We don't have Protestant lens. We look at the Vatican with the eyes of the Fathers.

Clearly not 'all' of them.
Yes, all of the Orthodox consensus of the Fathers of the Catholic Church.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #166 on: January 22, 2011, 01:15:11 AM »
I think this Forum does a very good job of representing the broad spectrum of Orthodox believers, particularly with reference to how Orthodoxy in general presents itself in this country vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Some of it is wonderful and real.  Much of it is false.  Some of it is insincere.  Much of it is genuine, even when the representation of Catholic teaching are dead wrong.

This concerns me as well.  Catholics come on here and say things such as the Orthodox allow abortion when they must know that is not true and so they are not being sincere with these assertions.  Other Catholics insist that our priests allow unrestrained sex when they must know that is also not true (just consider the large number of fasting days.)  Others try, and this is very insincere, to turn Orthodox liturgical texts against the Orthodox and argue that we used to believe in the Immaculate Conception and then rejected it out of anti-Catholic spite..... these are some examples of the insincerity which we can encounter on the forum.

I am very sincere when I say that I have met, face to face, Orthodox bishops who allow abortion in certain cases.

I am also very sincere when I use Orthodox texts to indicate that the Mother of God is more holy than the average Joe or Josephine when many Orthodox claim she is no different from any of us in her need to work hard to become holy.  What is not sincere is when my use of those texts is misrepresented each and every time...even after I've explained myself.

I am also very sincere when I say that I think you have a serious personal difficulty with sexual sin based on your family history and things you have said to me both publicly and privately...so you have a tendency to be exceptionally lenient.  Perhaps you should not have engaged me in those kinds of discussions over the years.

I know there are many things I confided in you that I now regret.


Mary

Mary, you have shocked me.  I have never made use of any privately conveyed information from you in any way, neither overtly nor covertly.

As to the above statements about my family history - a father who was a sexual profligate and simply could not stop loving women - that is hardly likely to have turned me into a sexual libertine and in fact his sons, my brothers, all have strong moral codes. My father was also very rich - so I hope you won' t now say that I have "a serious personal difficulty with financial sin and lust for money based on your family history.."

I have no confusion about sexual sin and leniency, so what you write above is just nasty innuendo.  In line of course with your constant attempts to destroy me on this forum.

Can anyone imagine if an Orthodox person went on a Catholic forum and made such statements against a priest as you have made, saying that they have "serious personal difficulty with sexual sin based on your family history..."   !!?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 01:30:53 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #167 on: January 22, 2011, 06:00:42 AM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #168 on: January 22, 2011, 07:44:20 AM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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St. Theodore Studite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #169 on: January 22, 2011, 10:24:28 AM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia.
LOL. Like this?
Quote
No wrongful presumption may avail to deceive the ignorant, nor any dissimulation to excuse those who know.  The primate of Rome against God, against the peace of the Church, to the contempt and injury of all priests, exceeded the bounds of modesty and of his own measure, and unlawfully usurped in synod the proud and pestiferous title of œcumenical, that is to say, universal.  When our Fathers of blessed memory became aware of this, rhey annulled by a fully valid censure all the proceedings of that same synod, taking him to task with most severe rebuke, and warning him to abstain from that new and temerarious name of superstition; even so as to forbid his deacon to go in procession with him, unless he should amend so great a wickedness.  And we, adhering in all respects to the zeal of their rectitude, observe their ordinances, under the protection of God, irrefragably, since it is fitting that he should walk without stumbling along the straight way of his predecessor, whom the tribunal of the eternal Judge awaits for rendering an account of the same place of government.  In which matter, lest we should seem to omit anything that pertains to the peace of the Church, we once and again addressed the same most holy pope by letter, bidding him relinquish that name of pride, and incline the elation of his heart to the humility which our Master and Lord has taught us.  And having found that he paid no regard, we have not desisted, in our desire of concord, from addressing the like admonitions to our most blessed brothers and fellow-priests, his successors.  But since it is the case, as we see, now that the end of this world is near at hand, that the enemy of the human race has already appeared in his harbingers, so as to have as his precursors, through this title of pride, the very priests who ought to have opposed him by living well and humbly, I exhort and entreat that not one of you ever accept this name, that not one consent to it, that not one write it, that not one admit it wherever it may have been written, or add his subscription to it; but, as becomes ministers of Almighty God, that each keep himself from this kind of poisoned infection, and give no place to the cunning lier-in-wait, since this thing is being done to the injury and rendering asunder of the whole Church, and, as we have said, to the contemning of all of you.  For if one, as he supposes, is universal bishop, it remains that you are not bishops.
And although our most pious rulers allow nothing unlawful to be done, yet, lest perverse men, taking occasion of your assembly, should seek opportunity of cajoling you in favouring this name of superstition, or should think of holding a synod about some other matter, with the view of introducing it therein by cunning contrivances,—though without the authority and consent of the Apostolic Sees nothing that might be passed would have any force, nevertheless, before Almighty God I conjure and warn you, that the assent of none of you be obtained by any blandishments, any bribes, any threats whatever; but, having regard to the eternal judgment, acquit ye yourselves salubriously and unanimously in opposition to wrongful aims; and, supported by pastoral constancy and apostolical authority, keep out the robber and the wolf that would rush in, and give no way to him that rages for the tearing of the Church asunder; nor allow, through any cajolery, a synod to be held on this subject, which indeed would not be a legitimate one, nor to be called a synod.  We also at the same time admonish you, that if haply nothing should be done with mention of this preposterous name, but a synod be by any chance assembled on another matter, ye be in all respects cautious, circumspect, watchful, and careful, lest anything should therein be decreed against any place or person prejudicially, or unlawfully, or in opposition to the canons.  But, if any question arises to be treated with advantage, let the question in hand take such a form that it may not upset any ancient ordinances.  Wherefore we once more admonish you before God and His Saints, that you observe all these things with the utmost attention, and with the entire bent of your minds.  For if any one, as we do not believe will be the case, should disregard in any part this present writing, let him know that he is segregated from the peace of the blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles.  Let, then, your Fraternity so act that when the Shepherd of shepherds comes in judgment, you may not be found guilty with respect to the place of government which you have received.

And indeed on the receipt of the synodical epistle of our brothers and fellow-bishops it was not worth my while to make a difficulty on account of the profane title at the risk of disturbing the unity of holy Church:  but nevertheless I took care to admonish him with respect to this same superstitious and proud title, saying that he could not have peace with us unless he corrected the elation of the aforesaid expression, which the first apostate invented.  You, however, ought not to say that this is a matter of no consequence, since, if we bear it with equanimity, we are corrupting the faith of the Universal Church; for you know how many not only heretics but heresiarchs have issued from Rome.  And, not to speak of the injury done to your dignity, if one bishop is called Universal, the Universal Church comes to ruin, if the one who is universal falls.  But far, far be this levity from my ears.  Yet I trust in Almighty God that what He has promised He will soon fulfil; Whosoever exalteth himself shall be humbled (Luke xiv. 11).

When the excellent preacher says, As long as I am the apostle of the Gentiles I will honour my ministry (Rom. xi. 13); saying again in another place, We became as babes among you (1 Thess. ii. 7), he undoubtedly shews an example to us who come after him, that we should retain humility in our minds, and yet keep in honour the dignity of our order, so that neither should our humility be timid nor our elevation proud.  Now eight years ago, in the time of my predecessor of holy memory, our brother and fellow-bishop in the city of Rome, seeking occasion from another cause, held a synod in which he attempted to call himself Universal Bishop.  Which as soon as my said predecessor knew, he despatched letters annulling by the authority of the holy apostles the acts of the said synod; of which letters I have taken care to send copies to your Holiness.  Moreover he forbade the deacon who attended us the most pious Lords for the business of the Church to celebrate the solemnities of mass with our aforesaid fellow-priest.  I also, being of the same mind with him, have sent similar letters to our aforesaid fellow-priest, copies of which I have thought it right to send to your Blessedness, with this especial purpose, that we may first assail with moderate force the mind of our before-named brother concerning this matter, wherein by a new act of pride, all the bowels of the Universal Church are disturbed.  But, if he should altogether refuse to be bent from the stiffness of his elation, then, with the succour of Almighty God, we may consider more particularly what ought to be done.

For, as your venerable Holiness knows, this name of Universality was offered by the holy synod of Chalcedon to the pontiff of the Apostolic See which by the providence of God I serve.   But no one of his predecessors has ever consented to use this so profane a title; since, forsooth, if one Patriarch is called Universal, the name of Patriarch in the case of the rest is derogated.  But far be this, far be it from the mind of a Christian, that any one should wish to seize for himself that whereby he might seem in the least degree to lessen the honour of his brethren.  While, then, we are unwilling to receive this honour when offered, think how disgraceful it is for any one to have wished to usurp it to himself perforce.
Wherefore let not your Holiness in your epistles ever call any one Universal, lest you detract from the honour due to yourself in offering to another what is not due.  Nor let any sinister suspicion make your mind uneasy with regard to our most serene lords, inasmuch as he fears Almighty God, and will in no way consent to do anything against the evangelical ordinances, against the most sacred canons.
Hence also we are not far from you, since in Him who is everywhere we are one.  Let us then give thanks to Him who, having abolished enmities, has caused that in His flesh there should be in the whole world one flock, and one sheepfold under Himself the one shepherd; and let us be ever mindful how the preacher of truth admonishes us, saying, Be careful to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace (Ephes. iv. 3), and, Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Hebr. xii. 14).  And he says also to other disciples, If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, having peace with all men (Rom. xii. 18).  For he sees that the good cannot have peace with the bad; and therefore, as ye know, he premised, If it be possible.

But, because peace cannot be established except on two sides, when the bad fly from it, the good ought to keep it in their inmost hearts.  Whence also it is admirably said, As much as lieth in you; meaning that it should remain in us even when it is repelled from the hearts of evil men.  And such peace we truly keep, when we treat the faults of the proud at once with charity and with persistent justice, when we love them and hate their vices.  For man is the work of God; but vice is the work of man.  Let us then distinguish between what God and what man has made, and neither hate the man on account of his error nor love the error on account of the man.

Let us then with united mind attack the evil of pride in the man, that from his enemy, that is to say his error, the man himself may first be freed.  Our Almighty Redeemer will supply strength to charity and justice; He will supply to us, though placed far from each other, the unity of His Spirit; even He by whose workmanship the Church, having been constructed as it were after the manner of the ark with the four sides of the world, and bound together with the compacture of incorruptible planks and the pitch of charity, is disturbed by no opposing winds, by the swelling of no billow coming from without.

But inasmuch as, with His grace steering us, we ought to seek that no wave coming upon us from without may throw us into confusion, so ought we to pray with all our hearts, dearest brethren, that the right hand of His providence may draw out the accumulation of internal bilgewater within us.  For indeed our adversary the devil, who, in his rage against the humble, as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet. v. 8), no longer, as we perceive, walks about the folds but so resolutely fixes his teeth in certain necessary members of the Church that, unless with the favour of the Lord, the heedful crowd 180bof shepherds unanimously run to the rescue, no one can doubt that he will soon tear all the sheepfold; which God forbid.  Consider, dearest brethren, who it is that follows close at hand, of whose approach such perverse beginnings are breaking out even in priests.  For it is because he is near of whom it is written, He is king over all the sons of pride (Job xli. 25)—not without sore grief I am compelled to say it—that our brother and fellow-bishop John, despising the Lord’s commands, apostolical precepts, and rules of Fathers, attempts through elation to be his forerunner in name.

But may Almighty God make known to your Blessedness with what sore groaning I am tormented by this consideration; that he, the once to me most modest man, he who was beloved of all, he who seemed to be occupied in alms, deeds, prayers, and fastings, out of the ashes he sat in, out of the humility he preached, has grown so boastful as to attempt to claim all to himself, and through the elation of a pompous expression to aim at subjugating to himself all the members of Christ, which cohere to one Head only, that is to Christ.  Nor is it surprising that the same tempter who knows pride to be the beginning of all sin, who used it formerly before all else in the case of the first man, should now also put it before some men at the end of virtues, so as to lay it as a snare for those who to some extent seemed to be escaping his most cruel hands by the good aims of their life, at the very goal of good work, and as it were in the very conclusion of perfection.

Wherefore we ought to pray earnestly, and implore Almighty God with continual supplications, that He would avert this error from that man’s soul, and remove this mischief of pride and confusion from the unity and humility of the Church.  And with the favour of the Lord we ought to concur, and make provision with all our powers, lest in the poison of one expression the living members in the body of Christ should die.  For, if this expression is suffered to be allowably used, the honour of all patriarchs is denied:  and while he that is called Universal perishes per chance in his error, no bishop will be found to have remained in a state of truth.

It is for you then, firmly and without prejudice, to keep the Churches as you have received them, and not to let this attempt at a diabolical usurpation have any countenance from you.  Stand firm; stand secure; presume not ever to issue or to receive writings with the falsity of the name Universal in them.  Bid all the bishops subject to your care abstain from the defilement of this elation, that the Universal Church may acknowledge you as Patriarchs not only in good works but also in the authority of truth.  But, if perchance adversity is the consequence, we ought to persist unanimously, and show even by dying that in case of harm to the generality we do not love anything of our own especially.  Let us say with Paul, To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain (Philip. i. 21).  Let us hear what the first of all pastors says; If ye suffer anything for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye (1 Pet. iii. 14).  For believe me that the dignity which we have received for the preaching of the truth we shall more safely relinquish than retain in behalf of the same truth, should case of necessity require it.  Finally, pray for me, as becomes your most dear Blessedness, that I may shew forth in works what I am thus bold to say to you.

Almighty God, who holds in His right hand the heart of your Piety, both protects us through you and prepares for you rewards of eternal remuneration for temporal deeds.  For I have learnt from the letters of my responsalis with what justice your Serenity is interested in the cause of the blessed Prince of the apostles Peter against certain persons who are proudly humble and feignedly kind.  And I trust in the bounty of our Redeemer that for these your good offices with the most serene lord and his most pious sons you will receive retribution also in the heavenly country.  Nor is there any doubt that you will receive eternal benefits, being loosed from the chains of your sins, if in the cause of his Church you have made him your debtor to whom the power of binding and of loosing has been given.  Wherefore I still beg you to allow no man’s hypocrisy to prevail against the truth, since there are some who, according to the saying of the excellent preacher, by sweet words and fair speeches seduce the hearts of the innocent,—men who are vile in raiment, but puffed up in heart.  And they affect to despise all things in this world, and yet seek to acquire for themselves all the things that are of this world.  They confess themselves unworthy before all men, but cannot be content with private titles, since they covet that whereby they may seem to be more worthy than all.  Let therefore your Piety, whom Almighty God has appointed with our most serene Lord to be over the whole world, through your favouring of justice render service to Him from whom you have received your right to so great a dominion, that you may rule over the world that is committed to you so much the more securely as you more truly serve the Author of all things in the execution of truth.

Furthermore, I inform you that I have received a letter from the most pious lord desiring me to be pacific towards my brother and fellow-priest.  And indeed so it became the religious lord to give injunctions to priests.  But, when this my brother with new presumption and pride calls himself universal bishop, having caused himself in the time of our predecessor of holy memory to be designated in synod by this so proud a title, though all the acts of that synod were abrogated, bbeing disallowed by the Apostolic Sees,—the most serene lord gives me a somewhat distressing intimation, in that he has not rebuked him who is acting proudly, but endeavours to bend me from my purpose, who in this cause of defending the truth of the Gospels and Canons, of humility and rectitude; whereas my aforesaid brother and fellow-priest is acting against evangelical principles and also against the blessed Apostle Peter, and against all the churches, and against the ordinances of the Canons.  But the Lord, in whose hands are all things, is almighty; of Him it is written, There is no wisdom nor prudence nor counsel against the Lord (Prov. xxi. 30).  And indeed my often before mentioned most holy brother endeavours to persuade my most serene lord of many things:  but well I know that all those prayers of his and all those tears will not allow my lord to be in any thing cajoled by any one against reason or his own soul.

Still it is very distressing, and hard to be borne with patience, that my aforesaid brother and fellow-bishop, despising all others, should attempt to be called sole bishop.  But in this pride of his what else is denoted than that the times of Antichrist are already near at hand?  For in truth he is imitating him who, scorning social joy with the legions of angels, attempted to start up to a summit of singular eminence, saying, I will exalt my throne above the stars of heaven, I will sit upon the mount of the testament, in the sides of the North, and will ascend above the heights of the clouds, and I will be like the most High (Isai. xiv. 13).  Wherefore I beseech you by Almighty God not to allow the times of your Piety to be polluted by the elation of one man, nor in any way to give any assent to so perverse a title, and that in this case your Piety may by no means despise me; since, though the sins are so great that he ought to suffer such things, yet there are no sins of the Apostle Peter that he should deserve in your times to suffer thus.  Wherefore again and again I beseech you by Almighty God that, as the princes your ancestors have sought the favour of the holy Apostle Peter, so you also take heed both to seek it for yourselves and to keep it, and that his honour among you be in no degree lessened on account of our sins who unworthily serve him, seeing that he is able both to be your helper now in all things and hereafter to remit your sins.

Further, a bishop of the city of Thessalonica has been ordained without the knowledge of me and my responsalis, and a thing has been done which never happened under any former princes.  When I heard of this, I at once sent word to that prevaricator, who had been irregularly ordained, that he must not presume by any means to celebrate the solemnities of mass, unless we should have first ascertained from our most serene lords that they had ordered this to be done; and this I commanded him under pain of excommunication.  And yet, scorning and despising me, supported by the audacity of certain secular persons, to whom he is said to give many bribes so as to impoverish his Church, he presumes up to this time to celebrate mass, and has refused to come to me according to the order of my lords.  Now I, obeying the injunction of their Piety, have from my heart forgiven this same Maximus, who had been ordained without my knowledge, his presumption in passing over me and my responsalis in his ordination, even as though he had been ordained with my authority.  But his other wrong doings—to wit his bodily transgressions, which I have heard of, and his having been elected through bribery, and his having presumed to celebrate mass while excommunicated—these things, for the sake of God, I cannot pass over without enquiry.  But I hope, and implore the Lord, that no fault may be found in him with respect to these things that are reported, and that his case may be terminated without peril to my soul.  Nevertheless, before this has been ascertained, my most serene lord, in the order that has been despatched, has enjoined me to receive him with honour when he comes.  And it is a very serious thing that a man of whom so many things of such a nature are reported should be honoured before such things have been enquired into and sifted, as they ought in the first place to be.  And, if the causes of the bishops who are committed to me are settled before my most pious lords under the patronage of others, what shall I do, unhappy that I am, in this Church?  But that my bishops despise me, and have recourse to secular Judges against me, I give thanks to Almighty God that I attribute it to my sins.  This however I briefly intimate, because I am waiting for a little while; and, if he should long delay coming to me, I shall in no wise hesitate to exercise strict canonical discipline in his case.  But I trust in Almighty God, that He will give long life to our most pious Lords, and order things for us under your hand, not according to our sins, but according to the gifts of His grace.  These things, then, I suggest to my most tranquil lady, since I am not ignorant with how great zeal for rectitude the most pure conscience of her Serenity is moved.

I have however taken care to admonish earnestly the same my brother and fellow-bishop that, if he desires to have peace and concord with all, he must refrain from the appellation of a foolish title.  As to this, the piety of my lords has charged me in their orders, saying that offence ought not to be engendered among us for the appellation of a frivolous name.  But I beseech your Piety to consider that some frivolous things are very harmless, and others exceedingly harmful.  Is it not the case that, when Antichrist comes and calls himself God, it will be very frivolous, and yet exceedingly pernicious?  If we regard the quantity of the language used, there are but a few syllables; but if the weight of the wrong, there is universal disaster.  Now I confidently say that whosoever calls himself, or desires to be called, Universal Priest, is in his elation the precursor of Antichrist, because he proudly puts himself above all others.  Nor is it by dissimilar pride that he is led into error; for, as that perverse one wishes to appear as above all men, so whosoever this one is who covets being called sole priest, he extols himself above all other priests.  But, since the Truth says, Every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled (Luke xiv. 11; xviii. 14), I know that every kind of elation is the sooner burst as it is the more inflated.  Let then your Piety charge those who have fallen into an example of pride not to generate any offence by the appellation of a frivolous name.  For I, a sinner, who by the help of God retain humility, need not to be admonished to humility.  Now may Almighty God long guard the life of our most serene Lord for the peace of holy Church and the advantage of the Roman republic.  For we are sure, that if you live who fear the Lord of heaven, you will allow no proud doings to prevail against the truth.

Contrast:
Chapter 3.
On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

1. And so, supported by the clear witness of Holy Scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical Council of Florence [49], which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people.

To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church.

2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

9. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

Pius IX, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Temporal Domains of the Holy Roman Church, Servant of the Servants of God
Quote
Pope Nicholas I is termed "summus pontifex et universalis papa" ["supreme pontiff and universal pope] by his legate Arsenius (Hardouin "Conc.", V, 280), and subsequent examples are common. After the eleventh century it appears to be only used of the popes.
Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York

The title "Patriarch of the West" has been since dropped. Not universal enough.

We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
As someone wiser and more irenic than I has said "your words say "no" but your actions say "yes."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #170 on: January 22, 2011, 11:51:46 AM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #171 on: January 22, 2011, 11:53:24 AM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #172 on: January 22, 2011, 12:11:33 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #173 on: January 22, 2011, 12:17:44 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage. 
Watching your projections, it would seem that Ultramontanist lens is what you pop into the projector, whether it's your heritate or not.  Look for a lens predating 1646.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2011, 12:22:29 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage.  
Watching your projections, it would seem that Ultramontanist lens is what you pop into the projector, whether it's your heritate or not.  Look for a lens predating 1646.

There is a better one which lasts the ages.  You are not the last word on the truth, though you make it your business to try to present that kind of image.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:40:13 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #175 on: January 22, 2011, 12:39:59 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage. 
Watching your projections, it would seem that Ultramontanist lens is what you pop into the projector, whether it's your heritate or not.  Look for a lens predating 1646.

There is a better one that that which lasts the ages.
Yes, the lens ground in 325, polished in 381 and focused in 879.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050817074822/http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/dragas_eighth.html


You are not the last word on the truth, though you make it your business to try to present that kind of image.
I have neither the first nor the last word, but merely repeat the words of He Who does.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #176 on: January 22, 2011, 12:47:33 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage.  
Watching your projections, it would seem that Ultramontanist lens is what you pop into the projector, whether it's your heritate or not.  Look for a lens predating 1646.

There is a better one that that which lasts the ages.
Yes, the lens ground in 325, polished in 381 and focused in 879.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050817074822/http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/dragas_eighth.html


You are not the last word on the truth, though you make it your business to try to present that kind of image.
I have neither the first nor the last word, but merely repeat the words of He Who does.

Not even the Catholic pope claims that much authority, though it is argued that he does.

Here is another way that Orthodoxy and the Protestants are hand-in-glove.  Everybody thinks they speak for Christ...no matter what it is they say.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:48:23 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #177 on: January 22, 2011, 01:16:32 PM »
I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.
Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.
No, it smacks of the Eastern Patristic viewpoint, which holds that all bishops are ontologically equal (See Meyendorff's book "The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church").

I fear this is not an either/or situation here.  Much of what passes for an Eastern Patristic viewpoint is modern protestant paranoia.
Looking through the Ultramontanist lens?

I don't have one of those lenses.  It is not my heritage.  
Watching your projections, it would seem that Ultramontanist lens is what you pop into the projector, whether it's your heritate or not.  Look for a lens predating 1646.

There is a better one that that which lasts the ages.
Yes, the lens ground in 325, polished in 381 and focused in 879.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050817074822/http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/dragas_eighth.html


You are not the last word on the truth, though you make it your business to try to present that kind of image.
I have neither the first nor the last word, but merely repeat the words of He Who does.

Not even the Catholic pope claims that much authority, though it is argued that he does.
Yes, it is argued trhoughout Pastor Aetenas.

Here is another way that Orthodoxy and the Protestants are hand-in-glove.  Everybody thinks they speak for Christ...no matter what it is they say.
And who claims to be the "Vicar of Christ," no matter what he says 'ex cathedra" being "irreformable" in and of itsefl, and not with the approval of the Church?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #178 on: January 22, 2011, 01:22:02 PM »
And who claims to be the "Vicar of Christ," no matter what he says 'ex cathedra" being "irreformable" in and of itsefl, and not with the approval of the Church?

Quote
Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

Id est, the definitions are made from the Pope, and not from a council.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #179 on: January 22, 2011, 01:26:21 PM »
I think this Forum does a very good job of representing the broad spectrum of Orthodox believers, particularly with reference to how Orthodoxy in general presents itself in this country vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Some of it is wonderful and real.  Much of it is false.  Some of it is insincere.  Much of it is genuine, even when the representation of Catholic teaching are dead wrong.

This concerns me as well.  Catholics come on here and say things such as the Orthodox allow abortion when they must know that is not true and so they are not being sincere with these assertions.  Other Catholics insist that our priests allow unrestrained sex when they must know that is also not true (just consider the large number of fasting days.)  Others try, and this is very insincere, to turn Orthodox liturgical texts against the Orthodox and argue that we used to believe in the Immaculate Conception and then rejected it out of anti-Catholic spite..... these are some examples of the insincerity which we can encounter on the forum.

I am very sincere when I say that I have met, face to face, Orthodox bishops who allow abortion in certain cases.

I am also very sincere when I use Orthodox texts to indicate that the Mother of God is more holy than the average Joe or Josephine when many Orthodox claim she is no different from any of us in her need to work hard to become holy.  What is not sincere is when my use of those texts is misrepresented each and every time...even after I've explained myself.

I am also very sincere when I say that I think you have a serious personal difficulty with sexual sin based on your family history and things you have said to me both publicly and privately...so you have a tendency to be exceptionally lenient.  Perhaps you should not have engaged me in those kinds of discussions over the years.

I know there are many things I confided in you that I now regret.


Mary

Mary, you have shocked me.  I have never made use of any privately conveyed information from you in any way, neither overtly nor covertly.

As to the above statements about my family history - a father who was a sexual profligate and simply could not stop loving women - that is hardly likely to have turned me into a sexual libertine and in fact his sons, my brothers, all have strong moral codes. My father was also very rich - so I hope you won' t now say that I have "a serious personal difficulty with financial sin and lust for money based on your family history.."

I have no confusion about sexual sin and leniency, so what you write above is just nasty innuendo.  In line of course with your constant attempts to destroy me on this forum.

Can anyone imagine if an Orthodox person went on a Catholic forum and made such statements against a priest as you have made, saying that they have "serious personal difficulty with sexual sin based on your family history..."   !!?

Father,

You know someone has nothing left to argue, no point to make, nor any intelligent thing to say when one resorts to this kind of behavior.