Author Topic: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?  (Read 40180 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2011, 05:59:48 PM »

What fis the techinical term for the fallacy this is demonstrating?

False Witness...an objective evil

I don't think False Witness is the correct term for this fallacy:
Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.

As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2011, 06:03:34 PM »
The infallibility of the Pope is the Infallibility of the Church

I feel the need to point out that you just claimed the pope is, or is on the same level as, Christ.  Which is what people have been saying through this whole thread.  I am glad you have seen the light!

Seriously though, the whole Church is the body of Christ, with He alone as it's head.  You CANNOT put the "infallibility of the Church", i.e. Christ, into one man without saying that that one man is on a level with Christ himself.  It isn't logically possible unless you deny that the Church as a whole is the body of Christ with Christ as it's head, or unless you believe that the "role" of Christ himself is being passed on in a similar fashion as the preisthood through Apostolic succession.

Christopher
Wrong. What she is saying is that when the Pope exercises the charism of infallibility, he is exercising a gift that belongs to the Church, not to one man himself. You couldn't have gotten it more backwards.
Sure you can. Just read Pastor Aeternas

This "charism of infallibility" is external to the church, at least in the ecclesiology the Vatican espouses, as it is not confered in her sacraments, or rather I should say, it is not confered by your sacraments according to you.  All he needs to do is accept election by his inferiors, and the "gift" is his, to exercise at his beck and call. Given the Vatican's view of charisms as a personal possession, e.g. a priest can take the priesthood with him into schism or heresy and a bishop can take the episcopate into schism and heresy, it is to one man himself, as, by definition, he cannot go into schism or heresy according to you.
How old are you? You remind me of liberal college professors... or, as I like to call them, Sophists.
because they serve up Vatican sophistry? of which one of my favorite examples:
This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the Supreme and Universal Pastor; for St. Gregory the Great says: "My honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honor, when it is denied to none of those to whom honor is due."....

...So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2011, 06:05:42 PM »
So the pope is supposed to hold the office of Peter?  Can any of you imagine Peter saying this: "I am supreme among the Apostles, and have authority over all the Church. I am infallible in my proclamations."  Of course not, cause that would be a silly, power hungry heresy and he would have be pulled down for his ego.

Christopher

The papacy has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men, with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, my Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.

God bless you and all who do as you do.

M.
The Orthodox episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men (and women, I'm sure), with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, our Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2011, 06:06:36 PM »
How old are you? You remind me of liberal college professors... or, as I like to call them, Sophists.

And why is that?  The only thing he did in his post is reference your own dogmatic documents.
That's the problem: we are just supposed to submit to them, not read them.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2011, 06:14:58 PM »
I am happy to know that no Orthodox Christian has ever waged war, or fought in a war.  It is a credit to the faith that you are that pure.


What fis the techinical term for the fallacy this is demonstrating?

False Witness...an objective evil

I don't think False Witness is the correct term for this fallacy:
Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.

As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2011, 06:15:53 PM »
 :D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

So the pope is supposed to hold the office of Peter?  Can any of you imagine Peter saying this: "I am supreme among the Apostles, and have authority over all the Church. I am infallible in my proclamations."  Of course not, cause that would be a silly, power hungry heresy and he would have be pulled down for his ego.

Christopher

The papacy has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men, with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, my Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.

God bless you and all who do as you do.

M.
The Orthodox episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men (and women, I'm sure), with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, our Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2011, 06:19:15 PM »
True.  I doubt you think the Orthodox Church is an eight headed beast.
Of course I don't think that about the Orthodox Church. I believe that the Orthodox Church is a true particular Church (while not necessarily being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church),
There is where your Vatican ecclesiology first fails you: you cannot be a "true particular Church" unless you are the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in particular.
maitaining true sacraments.
and here Vatican ecclesiology compounds your error: if you are not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you cannot maintain true sacraments/Holy Mysteries.
In fact, whenever I pass by an Eastern Orthodox Church I always make the Sign of the Cross in adoration of Christ present in the tabernacle.
I do that by one of the Vatican's churches, but that's just my personal opinion.

I love your icons, your liturgy, much of your spirituality, and even a great deal of your theology.

Thank you.

The reason for the picture is that I was simply applying the silly arguments that many of your coreligionists make against the Catholic Church, back to the Eastern Orthodox Church. They think we make the Pope equal to Christ and have two heads.
No, Pastor Aeternas did that.

My point is that, according to that logic your Church would multiple heads in all of the Bishops.

Only if we claimed them as visible heads of the Church, which we don't.

Of course I don't think that this is reality of your Church. Your head is Christ, just as he is our head.
Actually, He's not the head on your eccelsiastical body, which is the source of the problem.

But I just wanted to expose the silliness of the arguments made against the Catholic Church.
You are having a problem because the arguments against the Vatican aren't silly.

NOTE: Even though I see beauty and much truth in your Church, I am not a branch theorist, and I believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
 
She is. And she doesn't have the supreme pontiff of the Vatican as her head.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:25:03 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2011, 06:20:18 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

So the pope is supposed to hold the office of Peter?  Can any of you imagine Peter saying this: "I am supreme among the Apostles, and have authority over all the Church. I am infallible in my proclamations."  Of course not, cause that would be a silly, power hungry heresy and he would have be pulled down for his ego.

Christopher

The papacy has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men, with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, my Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.

God bless you and all who do as you do.

M.
The Orthodox episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has stood the test of time, Christopher.  More clever men (and women, I'm sure), with far more subtle tongues, have come to tear down the Catholic Church, our Church, and have gone to their rest unfulfilled.

The ones in the Orthodox Diptychs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2011, 06:24:15 PM »
I am happy to know that no Orthodox Christian has ever waged war, or fought in a war.  It is a credit to the faith that you are that pure.


What fis the techinical term for the fallacy this is demonstrating?

False Witness...an objective evil

I don't think False Witness is the correct term for this fallacy:
Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.

As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.
Produce a statement of the Orthodox Church waging and condoning and blessing war, and you will have a point. Otherwise, you are trying to make apple juice from oranges.

Not a matter of my or any Orthodox's purity, but the purity of the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2011, 06:30:36 PM »
I'm glad this topic came up as I was wondering about something myself.  It was brought up earlier but didn't go anywhere.

In Catholicism, Apostolic Succession is understood to remain with the person forever (even if the person is defrocked.)  What's different in Orthodoxy?  Can a bishop or priest enter into schism or heresy and still be considered a cleric?  Or does the power that ordination bestows on a person become dissolved once one enters into the said above?

Apostolic Succession does not remain with a defrocked or heretical/excommunicate clergy... Where did you get that idea?

The Vatican's valid but illicit nonsense. We've discussed this several times.

What remains is the personal relationship between Christ and the man that was forged during his ordination.  That never goes away.

Once the connection with Body of Christ or the Church is severed...there is no longer any clerical relationship between the ordained man and the Church.

Does the Orthodox Church take a laicized Catholic priest into the Church as an Orthodox priest without ordaining him?  Does the Orthodox Church ordain Catholic priests and priest-monks who choose to become Orthodox?

Answering those two questions should tell you something about our respective Church's mutual understandings concerning Holy Orders.
Many members of your eccelsiastical community have been received by Orthodox baptism into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. How does that answer both of your questions?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2011, 06:33:49 PM »

Actually, there is that too, with all the overlaping jurisdicitions.


I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney.  If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.
I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:
1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions
2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!
What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2011, 06:35:28 PM »
True.  I doubt you think the Orthodox Church is an eight headed beast.
Of course I don't think that about the Orthodox Church. I believe that the Orthodox Church is a true particular Church (while not necessarily being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church),
There is where your Vatican ecclesiology first fails you: you cannot be a "true particular Church" unless you are the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in particular.
maitaining true sacraments.
and here Vatican ecclesiology compounds your error: if you are not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you cannot maintain true sacraments/Holy Mysteries.
In fact, whenever I pass by an Eastern Orthodox Church I always make the Sign of the Cross in adoration of Christ present in the tabernacle.
I do that by one of the Vatican's churches, but that's just my personal opinion.

I love your icons, your liturgy, much of your spirituality, and even a great deal of your theology.

Thank you.

The reason for the picture is that I was simply applying the silly arguments that many of your coreligionists make against the Catholic Church, back to the Eastern Orthodox Church. They think we make the Pope equal to Christ and have two heads.
No, Pastor Aeternas did that.

My point is that, according to that logic your Church would multiple heads in all of the Bishops.

Only if we claimed them as visible heads of the Church, which we don't.

Of course I don't think that this is reality of your Church. Your head is Christ, just as he is our head.
Actually, He's not the head on your eccelsiastical body, which is the source of the problem.

But I just wanted to expose the silliness of the arguments made against the Catholic Church.
You are having a problem because the arguments against the Vatican aren't silly.

NOTE: Even though I see beauty and much truth in your Church, I am not a branch theorist, and I believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
 
She is. And she doesn't have the supreme pontiff of the Vatican as her head.
Like I said, you must be 12 years old.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2011, 06:36:09 PM »
As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.


The power of the Pope to dispense death is something which belongs to him by right of his succession from the Apostle Peter who himself brought about the death of Ananias and Sapphira.

It is a part of his powers as the possessor of the Keys.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2011, 06:36:50 PM »

Actually, there is that too, with all the overlaping jurisdicitions.


I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney.  If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.
I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:
1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions
2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!
What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.
No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2011, 06:37:25 PM »
Like I said, you must be 12 years old.

And using ad hominem in that way isn't indicative of a 12-year-old mentality?  :-\

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2011, 06:38:30 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:38:43 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2011, 06:40:38 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:40:52 PM by deusveritasest »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
I am happy to know that no Orthodox Christian has ever waged war, or fought in a war.  It is a credit to the faith that you are that pure.


What fis the techinical term for the fallacy this is demonstrating?

False Witness...an objective evil

I don't think False Witness is the correct term for this fallacy:
Seriously, I am embarrassed for those of you who do it, because its so beneath any form of intelligent discussion.

As for objective evil, we are being enlighened by the wisdom of your supreme pontiff's Exsurge Domine
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html

that no such thing can be said to exist, as murder can be OK if he says so.
Produce a statement of the Orthodox Church waging and condoning and blessing war, and you will have a point. Otherwise, you are trying to make apple juice from oranges.

Slide....

No blessing of the troops either I suppose.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2011, 06:44:07 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2011, 06:49:10 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Don't worry!  The Pope knows.  He knows that when  he concludes Christological Agreements with the Oriental Orthodox episcopate he is not concluding one with the Eastern Orthodox episcopate.

I guess that is why he is elected Pope -because he is smarter then the average Catholic and he knows these things.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:50:06 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2011, 06:51:24 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Don't worry!  The Pope knows.  He knows that when  he concludes Christological Agreements with the Oriental Orthodox episcopate he is not concluding one with the Eastern Orthodox episcopate.

I guess that is why he is elected Pope -because he is smarter then the average Catholic and he knows these things.
He definitely is. :) Pope Benedict is quite the brilliant and prolific writer.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2011, 06:53:19 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2011, 06:55:23 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

Quote
In the list of popes given in the Holy See's annual directory, Annuario Pontificio, the following note is attached to the name of Pope Leo VIII (963–965):

At this point, as again in the mid-eleventh century, we come across elections in which problems of harmonising historical criteria and those of theology and canon law make it impossible to decide clearly which side possessed the legitimacy whose factual existence guarantees the unbroken lawful succession of the successors of Saint Peter. The uncertainty that in some cases results has made it advisable to abandon the assignation of successive numbers in the list of the popes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope

I don't recall, are the SSPX in now or not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soceity_of_St._Pius_X#Canonical_situation
And those fans of "St. Josaphat" the Malevolent

Quote
The Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat Kuntsevych (SSJK) is a society of traditionalist priests and seminarians originating from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church which is led by the excommunicated priest Basil Kovpak. It is based in Riasne, Lviv, Western Ukraine.[1] In Lviv, the Society maintains a seminary, at which currently thirty students reside, and takes care of a small convent of Basilian sisters.[2] The SSJK is affiliated with the Society of St. Pius X and Holy Orders are conferred by the latter society's bishops in the Roman Rite. The SSJK clergymen, however, exclusively follow a version of Slavonic Byzantine Rite in the Ruthenian recension. As a Breakaway Catholic Church, the Society operates in direct defiance of the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism

Then those Old Catholics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church

Not to mention all your Protestant spawn.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:57:33 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2011, 06:55:35 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Don't worry!  The Pope knows.  He knows that when  he concludes Christological Agreements with the Oriental Orthodox episcopate he is not concluding one with the Eastern Orthodox episcopate.

I guess that is why he is elected Pope -because he is smarter then the average Catholic and he knows these things.
He definitely is. :) Pope Benedict is quite the brilliant and prolific writer.

So when you said "No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is" you didn't really mean no one.  You just meant that you can't?

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2011, 06:56:40 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2011, 06:56:57 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Here is the list of particular churches which the Orthodox Episcopate consists of:

-The Patriarchate of Alexandria under HH Pope Shenouda III
-The Patriarchate of Antioch under HH Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I
     -The Catholicosate of the East under HB Catholicos Baselios Thomas I, autonomous part of the Patriarchate of Antioch
-The Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin under HH Catholicos Karekin II
     -The Patriarchate of Constantinople under HB Patriarch Mesrob II, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
     -The Patriarchate of Jerusalem under HB Torkom Manoogian, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
-The Catholicosate of Cilicia under HH Catholicos Aram I
-The Church of Ethiopia under HH Patriarch Paulos
-The Church of Eritrea under HH Patriarch Antonios
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:00:42 PM by deusveritasest »

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2011, 06:57:18 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Don't worry!  The Pope knows.  He knows that when  he concludes Christological Agreements with the Oriental Orthodox episcopate he is not concluding one with the Eastern Orthodox episcopate.

I guess that is why he is elected Pope -because he is smarter then the average Catholic and he knows these things.
He definitely is. :) Pope Benedict is quite the brilliant and prolific writer.

So when you said "No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is" you didn't really mean no one.  You just meant that you can't?

I know where it is. But I don't think you guys do.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:17 PM »


Not to mention all your Protestant spawn.
You mean your coreligionists?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:49 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

Out of those groups which call themselves Orthodox we can determine which is truly Orthodox just as much as out of those groups which call themselves Catholic you think you can determine which one is truly Catholic.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

Out of those groups which call themselves Orthodox we can determine which is truly Orthodox just as much as out of those groups which call themselves Catholic you think you can determine which one is truly Catholic.
I know which are. But your own heirarchs don't even agree with you about who has valid sacraments, sir.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2011, 07:00:20 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

But of course they are Catholic Episcopates.  It's in their names - the old CATHOLIC Church, the Polish National CATHOLIC Church.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:00:40 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2011, 07:01:21 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

But of course they are Catholic Episcopates.  It's in their names - the old CATHOLIC Church, the Polish National CATHOLIC Church.
So? BTW, ya'll are over in another thread about not being called Father by a particular OO member of the forum.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2011, 07:01:33 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

Out of those groups which call themselves Orthodox we can determine which is truly Orthodox just as much as out of those groups which call themselves Catholic you think you can determine which one is truly Catholic.
I know which are. But your own heirarchs don't even agree with you about who has valid sacraments, sir.

Do yours?

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

Out of those groups which call themselves Orthodox we can determine which is truly Orthodox just as much as out of those groups which call themselves Catholic you think you can determine which one is truly Catholic.
I know which are. But your own heirarchs don't even agree with you about who has valid sacraments, sir.

Do yours?
I am in agreement with my Communion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:02:26 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2011, 07:03:02 PM »
:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Aren't there several Catholic Episcopates?  I believe that the Vatican accepts the Episcopate of the Old Catholics as fully valid.

And I think there are even more Catholic Episcopates - the Polish National Church?
Nope. They may have valid sacraments, but they are most certainly not Catholic. That being said, we know where the episcopte is. I am not sure if any of you do.

Out of those groups which call themselves Orthodox we can determine which is truly Orthodox just as much as out of those groups which call themselves Catholic you think you can determine which one is truly Catholic.
I know which are. But your own heirarchs don't even agree with you about who has valid sacraments, sir.

Do yours?
I am in agreement with my Communion.

Do all of your hierarchs agree with you concerning who does and does not have valid Sacraments?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2011, 07:03:20 PM »


Not to mention all your Protestant spawn.
You mean your coreligionists?

 :D  Always want it both ways.

If the spawn are set in their ways then they belong to Catholics...

But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D


Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2011, 07:07:35 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #127 on: January 21, 2011, 07:18:19 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #128 on: January 21, 2011, 07:19:32 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D

We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...

This is nothing more than your wishful fantasy.

Offline Father H

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #129 on: January 21, 2011, 07:36:16 PM »
Not true.  Look at the agreed statements on Christology:
There are two "families," one is recognized as:
1.  "The Orthodox Church"
the other is recognized as:
2.  "The Oriental Orthodox Churches"

Thus the Orthodox Episcopate by the agreed statement between to two is Patriarch Bartholomew, Pope Theodore, Patriarch Ignatius, Patriarch Theophilos, etc. 

:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Here is the list of particular churches which the Orthodox Episcopate consists of:

-The Patriarchate of Alexandria under HH Pope Shenouda III
-The Patriarchate of Antioch under HH Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I
     -The Catholicosate of the East under HB Catholicos Baselios Thomas I, autonomous part of the Patriarchate of Antioch
-The Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin under HH Catholicos Karekin II
     -The Patriarchate of Constantinople under HB Patriarch Mesrob II, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
     -The Patriarchate of Jerusalem under HB Torkom Manoogian, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
-The Catholicosate of Cilicia under HH Catholicos Aram I
-The Church of Ethiopia under HH Patriarch Paulos
-The Church of Eritrea under HH Patriarch Antonios

Offline Father H

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #130 on: January 21, 2011, 07:38:28 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D
We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...

This forum is not Orthodoxy, just as the RC forums are not Roman Catholicism, nor do they represent it.  And anyone who would look at the RC forums as representing the Vatican's position is just as delusional as one who would look at this forum as representing Orthodoxy.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #131 on: January 21, 2011, 07:42:44 PM »
Not true.  Look at the agreed statements on Christology:
There are two "families," one is recognized as:
1.  "The Orthodox Church"
the other is recognized as:
2.  "The Oriental Orthodox Churches"

Thus the Orthodox Episcopate by the agreed statement between to two is Patriarch Bartholomew, Pope Theodore, Patriarch Ignatius, Patriarch Theophilos, etc.  

:D  Which Orthodox episcopate would that be?

LOL. That is an excellent question. The EOs? OO? Traditionalist/Old Calanderist EOs?

You do realize that these names are ecumenist modernizations and that historically these groups would not mutually recognize each other as Orthodox?

Historically, from any given of these perspectives, there is only one Orthodox episcopate. It just depends on who you're asking, or who you decide to side with as the most reasonable perspective.
No one seems to be able to determine where this Orthodox Episcopate is.

Here is the list of particular churches which the Orthodox Episcopate consists of:

-The Patriarchate of Alexandria under HH Pope Shenouda III
-The Patriarchate of Antioch under HH Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I
     -The Catholicosate of the East under HB Catholicos Baselios Thomas I, autonomous part of the Patriarchate of Antioch
-The Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin under HH Catholicos Karekin II
     -The Patriarchate of Constantinople under HB Patriarch Mesrob II, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
     -The Patriarchate of Jerusalem under HB Torkom Manoogian, autonomous part of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin
-The Catholicosate of Cilicia under HH Catholicos Aram I
-The Church of Ethiopia under HH Patriarch Paulos
-The Church of Eritrea under HH Patriarch Antonios

I've said it numerous times before and I will say it again: the Agreed Statements are in error!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:43:05 PM by deusveritasest »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #132 on: January 21, 2011, 07:48:22 PM »
But if the spawn are looking at Orthodoxy then the red carpet comes out and we talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved...  :D
We don't do that. You should listen to the speech that Metropolitan Jonah gave to the ACNA. It's far from what you are imagining.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Imagine?  All I need do is read this Forum...

This forum is not Orthodoxy, just as the RC forums are not Roman Catholicism, nor do they represent it.  And anyone who would look at the RC forums as representing the Vatican's position is just as delusional as one who would look at this forum as representing Orthodoxy.

Dear Father,

I have spent nearly 17 years on Catholic and Orthodox Internet venues of all kinds.  Plus my real life contacts as a friend of Orthodoxy and a catechist in my own confession...even to spending several full liturgical cycles with the Orthodox liturgy.

I think this Forum does a very good job of representing the broad spectrum of Orthodox believers, particularly with reference to how Orthodoxy in general presents itself in this country vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Some of it is wonderful and real.  Much of it is false.  Some of it is insincere.  Much of it is genuine, even when the representation of Catholic teaching are dead wrong.

Mary

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #133 on: January 21, 2011, 08:20:28 PM »
I think this Forum does a very good job of representing the broad spectrum of Orthodox believers, particularly with reference to how Orthodoxy in general presents itself in this country vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Some of it is wonderful and real.  Much of it is false.  Some of it is insincere.  Much of it is genuine, even when the representation of Catholic teaching are dead wrong.

This concerns me as well.  Catholics come on here and say things such as the Orthodox allow abortion when they must know that is not true and so they are not being sincere with these assertions.  Other Catholics insist that our priests allow unrestrained sex when they must know that is also not true (just consider the large number of fasting days.)  Others try, and this is very insincere, to turn Orthodox liturgical texts against the Orthodox and argue that we used to believe in the Immaculate Conception and then rejected it out of anti-Catholic spite..... these are some examples of the insincerity which we can encounter on the forum.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2011, 08:31:50 PM »
I think this Forum does a very good job of representing the broad spectrum of Orthodox believers, particularly with reference to how Orthodoxy in general presents itself in this country vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Some of it is wonderful and real.  Much of it is false.  Some of it is insincere.  Much of it is genuine, even when the representation of Catholic teaching are dead wrong.

This concerns me as well.  Catholics come on here and say things such as the Orthodox allow abortion when they must know that is not true and so they are not being sincere with these assertions.  Other Catholics insist that our priests allow unrestrained sex when they must know that is also not true (just consider the large number of fasting days.)  Others try, and this is very insincere, to turn Orthodox liturgical texts against the Orthodox and argue that we used to believe in the Immaculate Conception and then rejected it out of anti-Catholic spite..... these are some examples of the insincerity which we can encounter on the forum.

I am very sincere when I say that I have met, face to face, Orthodox bishops who allow abortion in certain cases.

I am also very sincere when I use Orthodox texts to indicate that the Mother of God is more holy than the average Joe or Josephine when many Orthodox claim she is no different from any of us in her need to work hard to become holy.  What is not sincere is when my use of those texts is misrepresented each and every time...even after I've explained myself.

I am also very sincere when I say that I think you have a serious personal difficulty with sexual sin based on your family history and things you have said to me both publicly and privately...so you have a tendency to be exceptionally lenient.  Perhaps you should not have engaged me in those kinds of discussions over the years.

I know there are many things I confided in you that I now regret.

Mary