Author Topic: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?  (Read 38851 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #270 on: January 24, 2011, 05:15:28 PM »
You do realize that it comes down to 2 simple issues with respect to the papcy, elijahmaria.

The Orthodox will never, EVER, accept Papal supremacy or infallibility.  The twisting of biblical verses, historical documents...all of it doesn't matter.  That's why "ecumenical discussions" don't go anywhere.  The fact is, the RCC and EOC are not one in the same, and by some measures not even close.  The papacy just happens to be one of the biggest issues in the mainstream light.  Any historian knows that the idea of Papal supremacy didn't exist for the first 1,000 years of Christianity and, Catholic or not, they will say that.  

The idea that the Orthodox are just so blind and ignorant is why we won't accept the ludicrous idea that the Bishop of Rome is the "Vicar of Christ" is exactly why we won't be reuniting anytime soon.  In Roman Catholicism, there is no room for debate on this.  In Orthodoxy, there is also no room for debate on this.  

As I said before...Get your petitions ready because I think there's going to be a fight.

There is no need for petitions. There is no way that all of the Bishops will sign on to union in the way you are imagining it. All that will need to happen is for the faithful Orthodox laity to remain with the faithful Orthodox Bishops and leave the masses who are joining heresy.

I am so happy you can read my imagination.  

As for the rest of your scheme, then those who chose to stay with the True Orthodox Church can join the ranks of the basket load of other true Orthodox churches.  What else is new?


Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #271 on: January 24, 2011, 05:16:21 PM »
Just when I think I'm starting to lean Orthodox...

It is, as Saint Justin says, the greatest heresy the Church has had to fight.

The Serbian Orthodox Church vents, liturgically on the Roman Catholic Church.

I present the following official liturgical texts for St Justin (Popovic) of Celije (+1979), a newly glorified Saint of the Serbian Orthodox Church.  The Service to Saint Justin was composed on the instructions of the Patriarch and Synod of the Serbian Church and approved for use in all Churches.  What is interesting is that Patriarch Irenei is seen as being pro-ecumenical and pro-Roman Catholic and so is a fair proportion of the Synod.  But they still promulgated the liturgical service.

Troparion, Tone 1

Let us honor with splendor the divinely inspired theologian, the wise Serb Justin, who by the scythe of the Holy Spirit hath thrashed the error of atheism and the insolence of the Latins, being a mystic of the God-man and lover of piety, crying out: Glory to Christ Who hath glorified thee, glory to Him Who hath crowned thee, glory to Him Who hath rendered thee a luminary to those who are in a state of darkness.

Kontakion, Tone 1

We proclaim to the faithful the inexhaustible fount conveying the Orthodox doctrines, and an angel-like man full of divine zeal, the divine Justin, the offspring of the Serbs, who by his sound teachings and writings hath strengthened the faith of all in the Lord.


We are not concerned with winning you over to anything but the Truth.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #272 on: January 24, 2011, 05:16:48 PM »
And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

Don't confuse him.   :)
You mean you'll stop trying to peddle the Kool-Aid?

Back to the OP:have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #273 on: January 24, 2011, 05:17:20 PM »

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1.  Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.  Only 24 hours in  Purgatory.

2.  The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Here Chick Chick Chick.....

Ah, mockery.  I like that.  Proof that there is no viable answer.

Proof that it ain't worth the effort...

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #274 on: January 24, 2011, 05:19:09 PM »
I am so happy you can read my imagination.

I am not claiming to read your mind, I am just keeping in mind all your past references to what you think the union will constitute.

As for the rest of your scheme, then those who chose to stay with the True Orthodox Church can join the ranks of the basket load of other true Orthodox churches.  What else is new?

What will be new is that this one will actually be the True Orthodox Church. None of the "churches" currently commonly calling themselves "True Orthodox" actually are.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #275 on: January 24, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »
And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

Don't confuse him.   :)
You mean you'll stop trying to peddle the Kool-Aid?

Back to the OP:have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  

That question has no meaning.  There are all kinds of charisms in the Church.  All of them are real.  Not all of them are sacramental.

So your question needs to be re-done because as it is, it is nonsensical.....EXCEPT...in your mind of course.

But then only you can answer it.

M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #276 on: January 24, 2011, 05:23:18 PM »
I am so happy you can read my imagination.

I am not claiming to read your mind, I am just keeping in mind all your past references to what you think the union will constitute.

As for the rest of your scheme, then those who chose to stay with the True Orthodox Church can join the ranks of the basket load of other true Orthodox churches.  What else is new?

What will be new is that this one will actually be the True Orthodox Church. None of the "churches" currently commonly calling themselves "True Orthodox" actually are.

but of course....

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #277 on: January 24, 2011, 05:26:25 PM »
You do realize that it comes down to 2 simple issues with respect to the papcy, elijahmaria.

The Orthodox will never, EVER, accept Papal supremacy or infallibility.  The twisting of biblical verses, historical documents...all of it doesn't matter.  That's why "ecumenical discussions" don't go anywhere.  The fact is, the RCC and EOC are not one in the same, and by some measures not even close.  The papacy just happens to be one of the biggest issues in the mainstream light.  Any historian knows that the idea of Papal supremacy didn't exist for the first 1,000 years of Christianity and, Catholic or not, they will say that.  

The idea that the Orthodox are just so blind and ignorant is why we won't accept the ludicrous idea that the Bishop of Rome is the "Vicar of Christ" is exactly why we won't be reuniting anytime soon.  In Roman Catholicism, there is no room for debate on this.  In Orthodoxy, there is also no room for debate on this.  

As I said before...Get your petitions ready because I think there's going to be a fight.

There is no need for petitions. There is no way that all of the Bishops will sign on to union in the way you are imagining it. All that will need to happen is for the faithful Orthodox laity to remain with the faithful Orthodox Bishops and leave the masses who are joining heresy.

I am so happy you can read my imagination.  

As for the rest of your scheme, then those who chose to stay with the True Orthodox Church can join the ranks of the basket load of other true Orthodox churches.  What else is new?
Vatican dogma.

What's ancient, tried and true?  The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #278 on: January 24, 2011, 05:37:29 PM »
Rafa, I am sorry my friend, but I am probably not going to look to your church for theological, or even ecclesiologial guidance, until your church recognizes the danger of its own theological language, which so easily tends towards nestorianism.

Be careful with that attitude: the Holy Spirit blows where it wills and some truth(s) may shine through in even the most heretical of organizations.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2011, 05:43:43 PM »
And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

Don't confuse him.   :)
You mean you'll stop trying to peddle the Kool-Aid?

Back to the OP:have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  

That question has no meaning.

Only because the very idea of a visible head having an invisible succession is itself devoid of meaning.

There are all kinds of charisms in the Church.  All of them are real.  Not all of them are sacramental.
Quote
Sacramental rites are dependent on the Church which established them, and which therefore has the right to maintain, develop, modify, or abrogate them....The Catholic Church, which is the heiress of the Apostles, has always used and maintained against heretics this power over sacramentals. To her and to her alone belongs the right to determine the matter, form, and minister of the sacramentals. The Church, that is, the supreme authority represented by its visible head, alone legislates in this matter, because the bishops no longer have in practice the power to modify of abolish by a particular legislation what is imposed on the universal Church.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13292d.htm

So the visible head can abolish his office then.

So your question needs to be re-done because as it is, it is nonsensical.....EXCEPT...in your mind of course.

It makes sense only to the thinking.

But then only you can answer it.
If your infaalible visible foundation can't show a visible transmission of this charism, he exposes himself as a foundation of sand.

Quote
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification (Catechismus concil. Trident., n. 4, ex St. Augustine, "De Catechizandis rudibus").

Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because God, grace, and the soul are spiritual beings. God is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it is known that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means. This truth theologians express by saying that the sacraments are necessary, not absolutely but only hypothetically, i.e., in the supposition that if we wish to obtain a certain supernatural end we must use the supernatural means appointed for obtaining that end. In this sense the Council of Trent (Sess. VII, can. 4) declared heretical those who assert that the sacraments of the New Law are superfluous and not necessary, although all are not necessary for each individual. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church and of Christians in general that, whilst God was nowise bound to make use of external ceremonies as symbols of things spiritual and sacred, it has pleased Him to do so, and this is the ordinary and most suitable manner of dealing with men. Writers on the sacraments refer to this as the necessitas convenientiae, the necessity of suitableness. It is not really a necessity, but the most appropriate manner of dealing with creatures that are at the same time spiritual and corporeal. In this assertion all Christians are united: it is only when we come to consider the nature of the sacramental signs that Protestants (except some Anglicans) differ from Catholics. "To sacraments considered merely as outward forms, pictorial representations or symbolic acts, there is generally no objection", wrote Dr. Morgan Dix ("The sacramental system", New York, 1902, p. 16). "Of sacramental doctrine this may be said, that it is co-extensive with historic Christianity. Of this there is no reasonable doubt, as regards the very ancient days, of which St. Chrysostom's treatise on the priesthood and St. Cyril's catechetical lectures may be taken as characteristic documents. Nor was it otherwise with the more conservative of the reformed bodies of the sixteenth century. Martin Luther's Catechism, the Augsburg, and later the Westminster, Confessions are strongly sacramental in their tone, putting to shame the degenerate followers of those who compiled them" (ibid., p. 7, 8)
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #280 on: January 24, 2011, 05:46:47 PM »
I am so happy you can read my imagination.

I am not claiming to read your mind, I am just keeping in mind all your past references to what you think the union will constitute.

As for the rest of your scheme, then those who chose to stay with the True Orthodox Church can join the ranks of the basket load of other true Orthodox churches.  What else is new?

What will be new is that this one will actually be the True Orthodox Church. None of the "churches" currently commonly calling themselves "True Orthodox" actually are.

but of course....
...just like many of those "churches" who call themselves "The Catholic Church" actually are.

Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #281 on: January 24, 2011, 06:12:42 PM »


Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"? 

Same way you can tell a sacred and holy man from the daemon possessed...ultimately.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #282 on: January 24, 2011, 06:37:34 PM »


Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  

Same way you can tell a sacred and holy man from the daemon possessed...ultimately.
So the antipope St. Hippolytus was demons possessed?

Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 06:39:10 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #283 on: January 24, 2011, 06:42:25 PM »


Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  

Same way you can tell a sacred and holy man from the daemon possessed...ultimately.

Same answer.

There is no need to "transmit" any grace of the Holy Spirit.  There are outward signs of some graces and we call them sacraments but they do NOT "transmit" anything.

You have a very legalistic way of looking at the world.  It is not at all Catholic in its ethos.

M.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #284 on: January 24, 2011, 06:44:02 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #285 on: January 24, 2011, 06:49:37 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

Which question? He asks a lot of sarcastic ones. Was there a serious one?

I'm going to need this.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #286 on: January 24, 2011, 06:52:59 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

Which question? He asks a lot of sarcastic ones. Was there a serious one?

His question or assertion or suggestion or bully-pulpit essay...makes not sense in any Catholic reality.

But clearly there is at least one Orthodox believer that he's sold on it  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #287 on: January 24, 2011, 06:57:15 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?

M.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #288 on: January 24, 2011, 07:20:01 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

Which question? He asks a lot of sarcastic ones. Was there a serious one?
Agreed. Its hard to answer his serious questions when they are so mixed with demagoguery that we can't find them.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #289 on: January 24, 2011, 07:20:45 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?

M.
LOL. Good questions.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #290 on: January 24, 2011, 07:31:19 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?

Nice try.   ;)  :laugh:  ;)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #291 on: January 24, 2011, 07:34:05 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?

M.
LOL. Good questions.

Stages of theosis?  Yup, you have learned well by daring to impose your automatically granted legalism upon the Orthodox.  Maybe instead of reciting the Creed, All Catholic Cathecumens can memorize between 500 to 1,000 words of their favorite Papal Encyclical in Latin.   ::)

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #292 on: January 24, 2011, 07:41:04 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?



M.
LOL. Good questions.

Stages of theosis?  Yup, you have learned well by daring to impose your automatically granted legalism upon the Orthodox.  Maybe instead of reciting the Creed, All Catholic Cathecumens can memorize between 500 to 1,000 words of their favorite Papal Encyclical in Latin.   ::)
In the mean time, you can all recite condemnations against the Catholic Church, and argue about which tones are appropriate for certain lines in the Liturgy in Church slavonic, or even better, argue about whether one dare draw an image of God the Father in iconography. Or how about where true Orhtodox sacraments are. Is it "World Orthodoxy"? "True Orthodoxy"? "Non-Ecumenist-Traditionalist-Old-Calander Orthododxy"? Or maybe you can spend your liturgy proving how Orthodox you are by insulting us "graceless, heretical" Latins. I mean, there is just so much fun you can have.  ::)
BTW, You missed Maria's point. She was showing how silly it is to impose a legalism that doesn't exist on another's communion.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 07:51:35 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #293 on: January 24, 2011, 07:55:40 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #294 on: January 24, 2011, 08:10:37 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?



M.
LOL. Good questions.

Stages of theosis?  Yup, you have learned well by daring to impose your automatically granted legalism upon the Orthodox.  Maybe instead of reciting the Creed, All Catholic Cathecumens can memorize between 500 to 1,000 words of their favorite Papal Encyclical in Latin.   ::)
In the mean time, you can all recite condemnations against the Catholic Church, and argue about which tones are appropriate for certain lines in the Liturgy in Church slavonic, or even better, argue about whether one dare draw an image of God the Father in iconography. Or how about where true Orhtodox sacraments are. Is it "World Orthodoxy"? "True Orthodoxy"? "Non-Ecumenist-Traditionalist-Old-Calander Orthododxy"? Or maybe you can spend your liturgy proving how Orthodox you are by insulting us "graceless, heretical" Latins. I mean, there is just so much fun you can have.  ::)
BTW, You missed Maria's point. She was showing how silly it is to impose a legalism that doesn't exist on another's communion.

1.  I understood exactly what Mary was saying with the compliment.  I was responding to you.   ;)

2.  I'm glad that you vented your frustrations about the Orthodox.  Hope you feel better.   :)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #295 on: January 24, 2011, 08:12:17 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"

Papist is a good polemicist and has always had my respect.   :)

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #296 on: January 24, 2011, 08:12:53 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


When the original posters says "Stop attacking God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church", you don't think he was doing exactly what you are saying. I was only posting this as demonstration of how silly that is, but I suppose that such subtlety is lost on you.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #297 on: January 24, 2011, 08:14:47 PM »

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1.  Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.  Only 24 hours in  Purgatory.

2.  The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.



Well, at bare minimum you have demonstrated your absolute lack of understanding when it comes to the doctrine of purgatory. Congratulations.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #298 on: January 24, 2011, 08:17:51 PM »

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1.  Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.  Only 24 hours in  Purgatory.

2.  The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Here Chick Chick Chick.....

Ah, mockery.  I like that.  Proof that there is no viable answer.
No, it's that your argument is based on such riduclous premises, that it's impossible to answer. "Two million years", Father? Really? It's laughable that it's almost not worthy of a response... almost. Your arguments remind me of when muslims come on this webiste and create all kinds of silly charicatures of Christian doctrine.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #299 on: January 24, 2011, 08:26:43 PM »
To the OP:

We can say where the Holy Spirit is, but we cannot say where he is not.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #300 on: January 24, 2011, 08:39:49 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


When the original posters says "Stop attacking God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church", you don't think he was doing exactly what you are saying. I was only posting this as demonstration of how silly that is, but I suppose that such subtlety is lost on you.

Yes, Papist, because you're intelligence is beyond my understanding or grasp.  If only I could 'pontificate' such subtlety on internet forums. 

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #301 on: January 24, 2011, 08:43:55 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


When the original posters says "Stop attacking God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church", you don't think he was doing exactly what you are saying. I was only posting this as demonstration of how silly that is, but I suppose that such subtlety is lost on you.

Yes, Papist, because you're intelligence is beyond my understanding or grasp.  If only I could 'pontificate' such subtlety on internet forums. 
You said it, not me.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #302 on: January 24, 2011, 08:49:54 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


When the original posters says "Stop attacking God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church", you don't think he was doing exactly what you are saying. I was only posting this as demonstration of how silly that is, but I suppose that such subtlety is lost on you.

Yes, Papist, because you're intelligence is beyond my understanding or grasp.  If only I could 'pontificate' such subtlety on internet forums. 
You said it, not me.

My sarcasm must just be a pinch outside your perception boundary.

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #303 on: January 24, 2011, 09:21:38 PM »
Quote from: Papist link=topic=32995.msg524379#msg524379 date=1295894840
[/quote
Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

LOL.  Reminds me of a kid when he gets so steamed up when he looses an argument!!  "IM right and you're wrong!! na na na na na!"


When the original posters says "Stop attacking God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church", you don't think he was doing exactly what you are saying. I was only posting this as demonstration of how silly that is, but I suppose that such subtlety is lost on you.

Yes, Papist, because you're intelligence is beyond my understanding or grasp.  If only I could 'pontificate' such subtlety on internet forums. 
You said it, not me.

My sarcasm must just be a pinch outside your perception boundary.
Not likely. Perhaps you missed my point.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #304 on: January 24, 2011, 09:27:49 PM »

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1.  Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.  Only 24 hours in  Purgatory.

2.  The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.



Well, at bare minimum you have demonstrated your absolute lack of understanding when it comes to the doctrine of purgatory. Congratulations.

That is somewhat like demonstating an absolute lack of understanding of phlogiston, Atlantis and unicorns.

And of course that is the problem with us trying to understand the transmission of the pontificate, which your supreme pontiff claims to be the foundation of the Church, when yourselves are at a loss to explain its transmission.  Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #305 on: January 24, 2011, 09:30:13 PM »

That is somewhat like demonstating an absolute lack of understanding of phlogiston, Atlantis and unicorns.

Wow. How embarrassing for you.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #306 on: January 24, 2011, 09:32:42 PM »

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1.  Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.  Only 24 hours in  Purgatory.

2.  The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.



Well, at bare minimum you have demonstrated your absolute lack of understanding when it comes to the doctrine of purgatory. Congratulations.

That is somewhat like demonstating an absolute lack of understanding of phlogiston, Atlantis and unicorns.

And of course that is the problem with us trying to understand the transmission of the pontificate, which your supreme pontiff claims to be the foundation of the Church, when yourselves are at a loss to explain its transmission.  Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?

None of this makes any sense, in light of what the Catholic Church teaches about herself and the papal office.  It is empty questioning.   Devoid of substance that actually fits any reality concerning the confession to which the questions are addressed.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #307 on: January 24, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?

Throught the Holy Mysteries, the signs of the Life of Christ in His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apstolic Church.

How many stages are you eligible for per year? 
An infinite number.

At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?
Depending on which, as soon as you receive them.

Answers are easy when you have the Church that has them.

If you belong to an ecclesiastical organization which makes grand claims of certitude but doesn't follow up, you are left with a lot of questions dangling.  And of course that is the problem with us trying to understand the transmission of the pontificate, which your supreme pontiff claims to be the foundation of the Church, when yourselves are at a loss to explain its transmission.  Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #308 on: January 24, 2011, 09:36:47 PM »

That is somewhat like demonstating an absolute lack of understanding of phlogiston, Atlantis and unicorns.

Wow. How embarrassing for you.
I don't care for phlogiston, Atlantis or unicorns. Sorry if you place such importance on them.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #309 on: January 24, 2011, 09:38:16 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?

Throught the Holy Mysteries, the signs of the Life of Christ in His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apstolic Church.

How many stages are you eligible for per year? 
An infinite number.

At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?
Depending on which, as soon as you receive them.

I thought as much.

Orthodoxy teaches sola fides then.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #310 on: January 24, 2011, 09:40:03 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?  How many stages are you eligible for per year?  At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?



M.
LOL. Good questions.

Stages of theosis?  Yup, you have learned well by daring to impose your automatically granted legalism upon the Orthodox.  Maybe instead of reciting the Creed, All Catholic Cathecumens can memorize between 500 to 1,000 words of their favorite Papal Encyclical in Latin.   ::)
In the mean time, you can all recite condemnations against the Catholic Church, and argue about which tones are appropriate for certain lines in the Liturgy in Church slavonic, or even better, argue about whether one dare draw an image of God the Father in iconography. Or how about where true Orhtodox sacraments are. Is it "World Orthodoxy"? "True Orthodoxy"? "Non-Ecumenist-Traditionalist-Old-Calander Orthododxy"? Or maybe you can spend your liturgy proving how Orthodox you are by insulting us "graceless, heretical" Latins. I mean, there is just so much fun you can have.  ::)
BTW, You missed Maria's point. She was showing how silly it is to impose a legalism that doesn't exist on another's communion.
especially when the fish don't know they are wet.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #311 on: January 24, 2011, 09:43:15 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?

Throught the Holy Mysteries, the signs of the Life of Christ in His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apstolic Church.

How many stages are you eligible for per year? 
An infinite number.

At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?
Depending on which, as soon as you receive them.

I thought as much.

Orthodoxy teaches sola fides then.
Ah, more Latin scholasticism.

Given the great autopsy that the Scholastics subjected the Body of Christ to, one would think that they woulld figure out how Christ would attach another visible head to the Body, when the old one died and fell off.  If you belong to an ecclesiastical organization which makes grand claims of certitude but doesn't follow up, you are left with a lot of questions dangling.  And of course that is the problem with us trying to understand the transmission of the pontificate, which your supreme pontiff claims to be the foundation of the Church, when yourselves are at a loss to explain its transmission.  Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism, how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc.  Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?  How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor. Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why? Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders. And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #312 on: January 24, 2011, 10:00:38 PM »
That is somewhat like demonstating an absolute lack of understanding of phlogiston, Atlantis and unicorns.

Not cool.

And of course that is the problem with us trying to understand the transmission of the pontificate, which your supreme pontiff claims to be the foundation of the Church, when yourselves are at a loss to explain its transmission.  Odd how the Vatican has a long and complicated process of canonization to show someone is a saint, but no process of showing the transmission f the pontificate.  Since you have no visible means of transmitting that charism,

I know we've done this a few times.

It's not a transmitted charism. It's the nature of having the last word in an infallible church.

There is a long process for the Pope, too. It's a Papal election.

how can you tell an "antipope" from a "pope"?  

One acts and preaches against the catholic faith.

If a Pope started preaching Arianism, probably gonna be an anti-Pope.

So your visible head has no visible means to transmitt the inner grace of infallibility, supremacy, etc. Almighty God has not appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on these particular men?

No. He's consecrated a bishop, and then has the last word as nature of his office.

How is is that you can condmen the  "invisible church," the "branch theory," Sedevacantism, over the lack of a visible head?  

They don't.

-"invisible church", there is only one Catholic Church, and it's in communion with Rome (that's how you know you're in it)
-"branch theory", same
-"sedevacantism", they may hold an "orthodox" faith, but they are outside the church. Symbolized by the same reason.

You have demonstrated no visble means by which your "visible head" who serves as the visiblbe foundation of your ecclesiastical organization transmits that charism to his successor.

Because they don't.

Since your succession of visible heads have only invisible links to each other, why not invisible links between churches, branches, the empty see, etc.  

They aren't related.

Visible heads are elected and hold their authority by position in the church. Invisible links are communion, if you don't have communion, you're not in the church.

Btw, why should we not take the Sedevacantists as attached to the cathedra Petri, in which case there has been no visible head for decades.  

Because they aren't attached to the head. They say so themselves.

Have we gotten an explanation of how a charism with the certitude of the sacraments is conveyed outside the sacraments?  You all claim that when the supreme pontiff speaks ex cathedra, it is the God's honest truth as much as when the a bishop prays the epiclesis (or in your belief, says the words of institution) God's Body lays on the altar.  

Truths that are true in different manners.

Yet you hold, per Apostolicae Curae, that those Episcopalian bishops and priests who submitted this month to the Vatican, if they said mass in your parishes now before passing under the hands of one of the Vatican's bishop,  that it would remain bread and wine, even if he repeated the Tridentine Mass in Latin. Why?

They rejected their apostolic ordinations. You can't have a grace you reject. Even if this particular priest believes it, they must be ordained... Just in case.

Because 1552-3 and 1558-1662 the Anglicans did not say "the office and work of a bishop in the Church of God now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands."  So no orders.

They rejected holy orders.

And yet you have yet to explain how "the office and work supreme pontiff" is imparted without the imposition of hands.  If one of the Anglican use bishops were elected supreme pontiff before his Vatican consecration, would he be pope merely by accepting election?

A pope must be a Catholic. If the Anglican is confirmed a Catholic, and the ordained a RC bishop, then yes.

I'm going to need this.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #313 on: January 24, 2011, 10:08:13 PM »
I see Isa has asked the same question numerous times and no one has bothered to compose a reply.

I think Isa's question needs to be included in Cathechism classes for RC's, Eastern Catholics and all other Catholics.  I am inclined to write a personal letter to Pope Benedict XVI and see if His Holiness will answer the question.   ;)

How does Orthodoxy convey the grace of the stages of theosis on her faithful?

Throught the Holy Mysteries, the signs of the Life of Christ in His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apstolic Church.

How many stages are you eligible for per year? 
An infinite number.

At what age can you begin to convey theosis on others?
Depending on which, as soon as you receive them.

I thought as much.

Orthodoxy teaches sola fides then.
Ah, more Latin scholasticism.

I was not the one who says that Orthodoxy conveys theosis on the faithful.

All one needs to do is have faith in Orthodoxy...drink the Kool-Aid....and bingo!!...Theosis

Offline Father H

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Re: Is the Holy Spirit bound to the Sacraments?
« Reply #314 on: January 24, 2011, 10:22:49 PM »
The Holy Fathers' definition of original sin is not "real" original sin?   We have never believed in Anselmian Thor-like blame of a child for his father's guilt and punishing the child for it.   As already acknowledged, we strongly affirm original sin as upheld by the Church Fathers.  You saying that we do not over and over and over and over and over and over again with absolutely no evidence to substantiate your claims and no refutation of the points already made.   Because you turned Hades into purgatory does not mean that we "originally believed in purgatory."  We uphold the teachings of the Fathers on Hades and still do.   The burdon of proof is on you.  Please substantiate any instance in which Orthodoxy has upheld purgatory as opposed to hades as taught by the fathers.


We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false.   The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.  


Actually, there is that too, with all the overlaping jurisdicitions.


I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney.  If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.
I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:
1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions
2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!
What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.
No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.
Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.
not if it confess an adulterated creed, you're not.

And no, we never had the indulgence system upon which your purgatory depends, and so no, we never believed in purgatory. And no, we subscribed to the Scholastics argument for argument sake which has made your dogmas on Original Sin (the IC, etc.) unrecognizable to the Fathers.

Nope. You used to believe in purgatory (and, btw, it's dishonest to say that it depends on indulgences, as it clearly does not) and you believe in real original sin at one point. You souldn't lie about your own history.