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Author Topic: Book of Common Prayer- Orthodox Use  (Read 5354 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 18, 2011, 01:21:34 PM »

Does anyone here use the  Lancelot Andrewes Press BCP-conformed to Orthodox usage? If so I am wondering your opinion? I have been using it for a while and quite enjoy it.
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 06:10:57 PM »

I use it every day Smiley  And I love it too! It's a great quality for the price, very user-friendly and has some of the most beautiful prayers.
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 06:17:14 PM »

The Psalter is from the Authorized Version (KJV)?
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 06:25:21 PM »

The Psalter is from the Authorized Version (KJV)?

Probably the Coverdale version, which is what usually appears in the BCP.

By the way, Jordanville is supposed to be putting out David James' Orthodox revision of the Coverdale psalms sometime this year, later winter or early spring.
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 06:29:59 PM »

Yes, it is Coverdale.

Do you know the Shorter St Colman prayer book from the UK? ROCOR Western Rite- uk

That is great news about Jordanville!
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 03:32:54 AM »

The Psalter is from the Authorized Version (KJV)?

Probably the Coverdale version, which is what usually appears in the BCP.

By the way, Jordanville is supposed to be putting out David James' Orthodox revision of the Coverdale psalms sometime this year, later winter or early spring.

Yes, this is great news.  I am a 200% Coverdale man and use no other.  But I was shattered when the opinion was expressed on the clergy list that the David James' version has been so much reworked that it is not recognisably Coverdale.  I just pray that these early assessments are wrong.

I would not change anyway since Coverdale is the Psalms I know and have memorised - around 35 years of using the Hapgood Service Book.
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2011, 05:47:37 AM »

Yes, it is Coverdale.

Do you know the Shorter St Colman prayer book from the UK? ROCOR Western Rite- uk

That is great news about Jordanville!

The Shorter St. Colman Prayer Book (SSCPB) and the St. Colman Prayer Book (SCPB) is produced by the St. Petroc Paruchia of Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the First Hierarch's Assistant for the Western Rite in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.  His email in  Great Britain is on most of his blog-sites. http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/  I think the SCPB is a photocopied set of hand bound sheets or at least the copy I have seen is. I am not sure if there is a properly printed edition.  It is not available on Amazon.
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2011, 10:01:11 AM »

Do you know where I could get the Orthodox Prayers of Old England prayer book? It is $100 or more on amazon, and was curious if anyone knew a cheaper venue in which to purchase a copy?
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2011, 10:24:24 AM »

Do you know where I could get the Orthodox Prayers of Old England prayer book? It is $100 or more on amazon, and was curious if anyone knew a cheaper venue in which to purchase a copy?

$40

http://www.sjkp.org/
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 12:29:36 AM »

Do you know where I could get the Orthodox Prayers of Old England prayer book? It is $100 or more on amazon, and was curious if anyone knew a cheaper venue in which to purchase a copy?

$40

http://www.sjkp.org/
Do they even exist anymore? I sent away for one directly from Hieromonk Aidan almost 4 weeks ago and sent him an email a week ago asking if everything was alright with the purchase. No word.

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 12:35:39 AM »

The Psalter is from the Authorized Version (KJV)?

Probably the Coverdale version, which is what usually appears in the BCP.

By the way, Jordanville is supposed to be putting out David James' Orthodox revision of the Coverdale psalms sometime this year, later winter or early spring.

Yes, this is great news.  I am a 200% Coverdale man and use no other.  But I was shattered when the opinion was expressed on the clergy list that the David James' version has been so much reworked that it is not recognisably Coverdale.  I just pray that these early assessments are wrong.

Someone put up a side by side comparison of the Psalm 50 (David James', Coverdale, KJV, and HTM) over at Monachos.net and there were some significant departures from Coverdale, which I suspect David James felt necessary to reflect the Septuagint text. In these cases it tended to be closer to the HTM version. Many of Coverdale's unique phrases remained though.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 10:36:47 AM »

Does anyone here use the  Lancelot Andrewes Press BCP-conformed to Orthodox usage? If so I am wondering your opinion? I have been using it for a while and quite enjoy it.

I will comment here only on the Psalter portion. This is essentially the same as that of the 1928 American BCP, which - although containing a number of changes from Coverdale's original translation - still differs in many places from the Greek of the Septuagint Psalter, which is the official text of the Orthodox Church.

There is a nifty little book, "Notes on the Psalter: Extracts of Parallel Passages from the Prayer Book, Septuagint, and Vulgate Versions," by the Rev. Charles Evans, London, John Murray, Albemarle Street, 1904 (available free online via google books) that details all the well-known divergences of the BCP Psalter from the Septuagint.

With this book in hand, a close examination of the Psalms will soon reveal that virtually all of these departures from the Septuagint have been retained. As well, the superinscriptions of the Psalms, about which there is rich patristic commentary, and which should be a feature of any Orthodox Psalter, are still missing, and Ps. 151 is omitted. Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book, IMO, and the omission of the superscriptions means that the verse numbering, in general, does not match the verse numbering of contemporary Greek and Slavonic editions of the Psalter.

These comments apply equally to the beautifully printed and otherwise impressive "St. Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter" from the same press.

David James
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 02:36:05 PM »

The Psalter is from the Authorized Version (KJV)?

Probably the Coverdale version, which is what usually appears in the BCP.

By the way, Jordanville is supposed to be putting out David James' Orthodox revision of the Coverdale psalms sometime this year, later winter or early spring.

Yes, this is great news.  I am a 200% Coverdale man and use no other.  But I was shattered when the opinion was expressed on the clergy list that the David James' version has been so much reworked that it is not recognisably Coverdale.  I just pray that these early assessments are wrong.

I would not change anyway since Coverdale is the Psalms I know and have memorised - around 35 years of using the Hapgood Service Book.

Whether or not the forthcoming A Psalter for Prayer "has been so much reworked that it is not recognizably Coverdale" is really beside the point. While I did choose the Coverdale text as my starting point, since that version is arguably the most highly regarded of all the traditional English translations from a literary point of view, my main goal in producing yet another English-language Psalter was to produce one that was as faithful to the received Greek, Latin and Slavonic texts of the Church Psalter, but more readable than any of the editions currently available. Whether that goal was achieved, only time will tell.

As I mentioned earlier today in responding to another post on this thread, Coverdale's divergences from the Greek of the Septuagint have been well-known for a long time. Fixing all those differences means that only about 60%-65% of the text in the new Psalter exactly reproduces the Coverdale text. The rest had to be edited to a greater or lesser degree in order to agree with the Septuagint. The degree, of course, varies from psalm to psalm.

One of the issues with The Psalter According to the Seventy, in particular, that spurred me to tackle this project is that often the English follows the Greek so literally that the meaning is obscured. Ps 55:7 comes to mind:

Boston Psalter: "They will dwell near and will hide themselves; they will watch where I set my heel, even as they have waited for my soul.

new Psalter: "They linger and lurk, they dog my heels, because they are lying in wait for my soul."

Coverdale: "They hold all together and keep themselves close, and mark my steps when they lay wait for my soul."

or Ps 106:27

Boston Psalter: They were troubled, and they reeled like one drunken, and all their wisdom was swallowed up."

new Psalter: "They were tossed to and fro; they staggered like a drunken man, and were at their wit’s end."

Coverdale: "They reel to and fro and stagger like a drunken man and are at their wit's end."

In other instances, the text in The Psalter According to the Seventy is at variance with the Latin and/or the Slavonic, as, for example, in Ps. 16:14

Boston Psalter: "They have satisfied themselves with swine and have left the remnants to their babes.

new Psalter: "They had children at their desire (agreeing with the Latin and Slavonic), and left the rest of their substance for their babes."

Coverdale: "They have children at their desire and leave the rest of their substance for their babes."

or Ps. 17:30

Boston Psalter: "For by Thee shall I be delivered from a host of robbers, and by my God shall I leap over a wall."

new Psalter: "For by Thee am I delivered from temptation, (agreeing with the Latin and Slavonic) and by my God I shall leap over a wall."

Coverdale: "For in thee I shall discomfit an host of men, and with the help of my God I shall leap over the wall."

In short, the main goal of the new psalter was to produce an English Psalter that, while in general as faithful to the original Greek as the ones currently in use, is more cognizant of the textual witness of the Latin and Church Slavonic translations of the Septuagint, more clear in meaning, and more respectful of the 500-year-old legacy of liturgical English. The jury is still out, and as God wills.

David James

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2011, 02:39:15 PM »

Thank you for the explanations/information, David James, and welcome to the forum Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2011, 08:23:16 AM »

Greetings David James:

Thank you for your information. I am part of a nascent ROCOR-Western Rite mission in Minnesota and I believe we have heard of the forthcoming Psalter your discuss. It is much anticipated.

I am curious if there is a written history of the Coverdale Psalter/ BCP Psalter that anyone could reccomend?

Thank You
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2011, 09:52:16 AM »

There are a lot of differences in the translations of the Psalms (as well as Canticles) between the English BCP and the American 1928 BCP.

In XC,

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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2011, 10:02:58 AM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2011, 10:29:59 AM »

There are a lot of differences in the translations of the Psalms (as well as Canticles) between the English BCP and the American 1928 BCP.

In XC,

Deacon Philip

Quite right, Fr. Philip:

Here is a link to a site that provides all the specific changes in the Psalter of the American Book of Common Prayer from 1789 to 1928. I don't know for certain, but I assume the Psalter in the 1789 American BCP is the same as in the 1662 English version. For what it's worth, the base text I started with over 20 years ago was from the 1662 Prayer Book.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/Psalms1.htm

David James
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2011, 11:07:18 AM »

Greetings David James:

Thank you for your information. I am part of a nascent ROCOR-Western Rite mission in Minnesota and I believe we have heard of the forthcoming Psalter your discuss. It is much anticipated.

I am curious if there is a written history of the Coverdale Psalter/ BCP Psalter that anyone could reccomend?

Thank You

I don't know of a history of the BCP psalter, specifically. I have just ordered the following book for myself:

The Oxford Guide to The Book of Common Prayer : A Worldwide Survey, Oxford Guide to the BCP. by Charles Hefling & Cynthia Shattuck.

The blurb: "An instant classic. A superb and thorough guide to to the Book of Common Prayer. Covers the history of the BCP, its many versions throughout the world today, interractions and influences with society and other denominations, and the services themselves. Contains much information simply not available anywhere else. Highly recommended for anyone seriously interested in the Book of Common Prayer." Hardcover, publ. Oxford Univ. Press 2006
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2011, 12:14:46 PM »

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.
Do you have the blessing of your Priest to use this prayer book? I just bought this one yesterday, and am a little dismayed to hear you say that.
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2011, 01:19:48 PM »

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.
Do you have the blessing of your Priest to use this prayer book? I just bought this one yesterday, and am a little dismayed to hear you say that.

Absolutely! In fact, I was received into Orthodoxy through the baptismal service in this book. I was just saying, it's scope is wider than Orthodoxy and is not published solely for Orthodox.
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2011, 02:01:08 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 02:38:09 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 02:55:58 PM »

One of the changes I always found curious is Psalm 68:11

English BCP 1662: The Lord gave the word: great was the company of preachers.

to

American BCP 1928: The Lord gave the word: great was the company of women that bare the tidings.


The changes to the Canticles are also confusing.

In XC,

Deacon Philip

There are a lot of differences in the translations of the Psalms (as well as Canticles) between the English BCP and the American 1928 BCP.

In XC,

Deacon Philip

Quite right, Fr. Philip:

Here is a link to a site that provides all the specific changes in the Psalter of the American Book of Common Prayer from 1789 to 1928. I don't know for certain, but I assume the Psalter in the 1789 American BCP is the same as in the 1662 English version. For what it's worth, the base text I started with over 20 years ago was from the 1662 Prayer Book.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/Psalms1.htm

David James
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 03:29:37 PM »

One of the changes I always found curious is Psalm 68:11

English BCP 1662: The Lord gave the word: great was the company of preachers.

to

American BCP 1928: The Lord gave the word: great was the company of women that bare the tidings.


The changes to the Canticles are also confusing.

In XC,

Deacon Philip

There are a lot of differences in the translations of the Psalms (as well as Canticles) between the English BCP and the American 1928 BCP.

In XC,

Deacon Philip

Quite right, Fr. Philip:

Here is a link to a site that provides all the specific changes in the Psalter of the American Book of Common Prayer from 1789 to 1928. I don't know for certain, but I assume the Psalter in the 1789 American BCP is the same as in the 1662 English version. For what it's worth, the base text I started with over 20 years ago was from the 1662 Prayer Book.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/Psalms1.htm

David James

This is Ps. 67:12 in the Septuagint:

"The Lord shall give speech with great power to them that preach the good tidings."

This verse, as you no doubt know, is the inspiration for the priest's blessing of the deacon before he reads the Gospel in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

"May God, through the prayers of the holy and all glorious Apostle and Evangelist, N., give thee speech with great power, unto the preaching of the Gospel [good tidings] of His beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ."

This verse is a good example of why the Coverdale psalter can't be used "as is" in an Orthodox context.

David James
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 05:19:52 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?

I do. Had to do some editing for Orthodox use, but it's good.
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 07:38:25 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2011, 07:40:00 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?

I do. Had to do some editing for Orthodox use, but it's good.
I thought the monastic diurnal from Lancelot press WAS for Orthodox use, specifically WRO. Am I wrong?
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2011, 07:40:46 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?

I do. Had to do some editing for Orthodox use, but it's good.

What changes did you make, if you don't mind my asking? I don't have the Diurnal, but was told by those who use it that it's contents are entirely pre-Schism.
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?

I do. Had to do some editing for Orthodox use, but it's good.

What changes did you make, if you don't mind my asking? I don't have the Diurnal, but was told by those who use it that it's contents are entirely pre-Schism.

You were unfortunately misinformed. Besides the post-schism saints which need to be skipped, there are various post-schism feasts which, depending on your local practice and/or tolerance, may need editing or removal. Also, some hymns are not just post-schism by a bit sappy. One pre-schism hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, needs to be edited in its last verse since the translation preaches filioque. There are other various issues. Still, it's not bad, one just has to be careful and do some research. To my knowledge, none of the LAP books are specifically Orthodox--at least none that I have, although St. Dunstan's Psalter is pretty darn close.
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2011, 07:51:17 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?

The Gallican Psalter of the Vulgate is, IIRC, a translation of the Septuagint Psalter.
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2011, 08:18:45 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?
The Psalter, being used constantly in worship, resisted Jerome.  The mss. of the Vulgate actually have the Vetus Latina (which didn't share Jerome's error to use the Hebrew text of the Jews).  The Latin Mass also resisted Jeroe, and so its biblical content is based on the Vetus Latina.
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2011, 08:19:21 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?

Perhaps you are pulling my leg. The Latin-speaking Churches were using St. Jerome's Latin translation of the Greek Septuagint (the so-called Gallican Psalter), just as the Slavic Churches were using the Church Slavonic translation of SS. Cyril & Methodius. Now, today, English-speaking Orthodox Christians are muddling toward an English version of the Greek Septuagint that will eventually 'take.' Unfortunately, we have no St. Jerome or SS. Cyril & Methodius to set us on our way. But we do have the Coverdale translation of the psalter, which is beautiful enough that I think the effort to salvage it for Orthodox use is worth the attempt.

David James
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2011, 08:28:35 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?

Perhaps you are pulling my leg. The Latin-speaking Churches were using St. Jerome's Latin translation of the Greek Septuagint (the so-called Gallican Psalter), just as the Slavic Churches were using the Church Slavonic translation of SS. Cyril & Methodius. Now, today, English-speaking Orthodox Christians are muddling toward an English version of the Greek Septuagint that will eventually 'take.' Unfortunately, we have no St. Jerome or SS. Cyril & Methodius to set us on our way. But we do have the Coverdale translation of the psalter, which is beautiful enough that I think the effort to salvage it for Orthodox use is worth the attempt.

David James

Hmmm, no I'm not pulling your leg! I honestly thought Jerome's translation was a direct one, from the Hebrew, not a translation of the Greek.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2011, 08:30:10 PM »

Great! My fears are put to rest! I know that I will love it. Do you have the monastic diurnal?

I do. Had to do some editing for Orthodox use, but it's good.

What changes did you make, if you don't mind my asking? I don't have the Diurnal, but was told by those who use it that it's contents are entirely pre-Schism.

You were unfortunately misinformed. Besides the post-schism saints which need to be skipped, there are various post-schism feasts which, depending on your local practice and/or tolerance, may need editing or removal. Also, some hymns are not just post-schism by a bit sappy. One pre-schism hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, needs to be edited in its last verse since the translation preaches filioque. There are other various issues. Still, it's not bad, one just has to be careful and do some research. To my knowledge, none of the LAP books are specifically Orthodox--at least none that I have, although St. Dunstan's Psalter is pretty darn close.

Yes, the St. Dunstan's Psalter is a wonderful little volume. I didn't know that, about the Diurnal, but I suppose that makes sense. It's scope is indeed much wider than Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2011, 08:55:47 PM »

Finally, the double-numbering of the Psalms, retained from the 1928 BCP, really doesn't belong in an Orthodox Prayer Book

To be fair, the BCP from Lancelot-Andrewes is not an Orthodox Prayer Book, but is intended for any English-speaking Christians, of whatever background. It is not published on behalf of any Archdiocese.

True, but the introduction also states (p. viii), "This particular edition reflects Orthodox usages. For example, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is recited without the "Filioque" clause from the Latin version of the Creed reflecting the double procession of the Holy Ghost. The Mass Canon restores a direct Invocation of the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin and Saints are mentioned in the Prayer for Christ's Church. Holy Baptism is administered together with Confirmation (Chrismation) and First Holy Communion. The Calendar Tables found in Appendix I, as well as the Mass Propers, assume the Eastern Orthodox manner of calculating the date of Easter Day (Pascha)."

Clearly, then, the editors envisioned the possible adoption of this Prayer Book for use by Orthodox parishes of the Western Rite. That being the case, it would be better if the Psalter conformed more closely to the Septuagint, which is the official Biblical text of Orthodox Christians everywhere, and, I might add, of the entire Western Church, prior to the Reformation. Of course, this Prayer Book has other defects from the Orthodox Catholic point of view, due to it's apparently indiscriminate acceptance of post-schism and, especially, post-Tridentine, Roman Catholic feasts and devotions.

David James

I was under the impression the Latin Vulgate was the common Bible in the West at least by, if not prior to, the 13th century. It has been around since the 4th century, are you saying the Latin-speaking Churches were using the Greek Septuagint until the Reformation?

Perhaps you are pulling my leg. The Latin-speaking Churches were using St. Jerome's Latin translation of the Greek Septuagint (the so-called Gallican Psalter), just as the Slavic Churches were using the Church Slavonic translation of SS. Cyril & Methodius. Now, today, English-speaking Orthodox Christians are muddling toward an English version of the Greek Septuagint that will eventually 'take.' Unfortunately, we have no St. Jerome or SS. Cyril & Methodius to set us on our way. But we do have the Coverdale translation of the psalter, which is beautiful enough that I think the effort to salvage it for Orthodox use is worth the attempt.

David James

Hmmm, no I'm not pulling your leg! I honestly thought Jerome's translation was a direct one, from the Hebrew, not a translation of the Greek.

St. Jerome was actually involved in three versions of the Latin psalter. The first was a revision of the old Latin text, the so-called 'Vetus' text (from the Septuagint), which became known as the 'Psalterium Romanum', or Roman Psalter, which survived in use mainly in England until the Norman Conquest. The second was a more thorough translation of the Greek Septuagint, comparing several different manuscripts. This is the so-called 'Psalterium Gallicanum' or Gallican Psalter, which eventually prevailed everywhere in the Roman patriarchate, including, after 1066, in Great Britain. Lastly, St. Jerome did make a translation from the Hebrew, but it was not received into general use, and was pretty much ignored until modern times and the growing influence of the Masoretic Hebrew text. However, it is St. Jerome's second version, the Gallican text, that is generally referred to when people speak of the Vulgate psalter.
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2011, 09:12:46 PM »

Thank you for sharing!
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2011, 10:18:52 PM »

Along this stream of thought does anyone here know the "Readings for the Daily Office from the Early Church" by J Robert Wright? I recently acquired it and must confess it seems a masterwork.  Wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the text?
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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »

So, as I said previously, I ordered the Book of Common prayer, as well as the Saint Ambrose prayer book. I love them BTW. I did have a question. I know that the prayers have been tweaked a bit to "become" Orthodox. Something I noticed though was that some of the prayers conclude thus:
"through the merits of Thy Son Jesus Christ, Amen."
Now is there an Orthodox way to understand the "merit" language used in this prayer book? It really reminds me of Anselmian rhetoric.

Also, in the Saint Ambrose prayer book, there are some devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Is this an accepted devotion within the Western Rite of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2011, 06:19:59 PM »

Now is there an Orthodox way to understand the "merit" language used in this prayer book?

I would say that for us Orthodox, Christ's merits are nothing else but His "trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life."

Also, in the Saint Ambrose prayer book, there are some devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Is this an accepted devotion within the Western Rite of Orthodoxy?

In the ROCOR -- no. In the AWRV -- by some (but not by all).
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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2011, 06:39:51 PM »

Michal is correct on both counts!

The word that gets translated "merits" from what I'm told, is a bit tricky, but kind of encapsulates "holiness" "sanctity" and "righteousness." I'm not too fond of the term "merits" either, but it is what it is.

As for the Sacred Heart, there's a decent explanation/introduction in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook, which I'm guessing you've already read, but that's where those who use it are "coming from" so to speak. I personally don't really know anyone that uses it, but for some, it has a place in their prayer life.

Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying them both!
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« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2011, 07:03:12 PM »

As I understand it, the Latin "meritas" predates the medieval and erroneous doctrine of the saints' extra merits (which was just a marketing gimmick) by many centuries. "Meritas" is the word used in the ancient, Orthodox texts. That later baggage should make it unpalatable is unfortunate.
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« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2011, 08:22:09 PM »

As I understand it, the Latin "meritas" predates the medieval and erroneous doctrine of the saints' extra merits (which was just a marketing gimmick) by many centuries. "Meritas" is the word used in the ancient, Orthodox texts. That later baggage should make it unpalatable is unfortunate.
That's good to hear. Like I said, I love the prayer books! Really nice prayers.
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« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2011, 08:29:05 PM »

Like I said, I love the prayer books! Really nice prayers.

Then probably you will like this blog as well: http://orthodoxsojourn.blogspot.com
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2011, 04:57:15 PM »

I was wondering something. After using this prayer book for a while now, where's the ninth hour? Evensong is basically Vespers, and Compline is Compline, so, what's up?
BTW, still LOVING this prayer book!
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