OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 11:19:45 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Macedonian Bulgarians Threaten Skopje with Switching to Bulgarian Orthodox Churc  (Read 4648 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« on: January 18, 2011, 01:11:51 PM »

Quote
The Bulgarian Cultural Club in Skopje has asked Archbishop Stefan for an apology threatening that, should he fail to issue one, the organization will ask the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to restore its historic diocese in Macedonia.

full story

Great! Let's make a second Estonia or Moldova!
Logged
Jake
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern orthodox
Posts: 130


« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 01:32:43 PM »

There is no comparison with the situation in Estonia or Moldova at all.  The Estonian Orthodox Church for ethnic Estonians using Estonian as their liturgical language exsisted under the EP in the interwar period.
A period when the Estonians were able to free themselves from the oppression and colonialism of Russia and were a free country.  Now after the fall of communisim both Estonia as a country is free again and the Estonian Orthodox Church under the EP has been revived.

Quote
The Bulgarian Cultural Club in Skopje has asked Archbishop Stefan for an apology threatening that, should he fail to issue one, the organization will ask the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to restore its historic diocese in Macedonia.


It is highly unlikely that a small "cultural club" can interfere in church affairs.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 02:57:09 PM »

There is no comparison with the situation in Estonia or Moldova at all.  The Estonian Orthodox Church for ethnic Estonians using Estonian as their liturgical language exsisted under the EP in the interwar period.
A period when the Estonians were able to free themselves from the oppression and colonialism of Russia and were a free country.  Now after the fall of communisim both Estonia as a country is free again and the Estonian Orthodox Church under the EP has been revived.

Quote
The Bulgarian Cultural Club in Skopje has asked Archbishop Stefan for an apology threatening that, should he fail to issue one, the organization will ask the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to restore its historic diocese in Macedonia.


It is highly unlikely that a small "cultural club" can interfere in church affairs.

While I am an American citizen of Macedono-Bulgarian descent on my father's side (Bulgarian on my mother's), I have always supported the modern Macedonian folks belief that they are a separate nationality. I have even supported the Macedonian Orthodox Church's quest for recognition. I have done so on democratic principles and not because I agree with them. Therefore, it comes as a shock to hear the hateful and intemperate words of the primate of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. I do hope that Archbishop Stephan is an exception rather than the rule.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Jake
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern orthodox
Posts: 130


« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 05:23:51 PM »

Since we have not heard such comments as his before reported to us, I am suspecting that he is the exception rather than the rule.
The poor Macedonians, like the Estonians have been under too many differnt conquerers.  It is good that both ethnic groups now have freedom and independence at last.
Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 409



« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 03:26:22 AM »

The words of this Archbishop Stephan don't surprise me. This tiny cultural club may ask the Bulgarian Orthodox Church for whatever they want, but knowing the Bulgarian Orthodox Church I really don't believe the Bulgarian Synod will restore its jurisdiction to the Macedonian lands.

Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 07:31:54 AM »

The linked article actually provides some decent background which is nice to see for a change
Quote
Until the first half of the 20th century the majority of the population of the geographic region of Macedonia were considered to be ethnic Bulgarians. In 1944, communist Yugoslavia formally set up a Macedonian nation and made the so called region of "Vardar Macedonia" (as opposed to Aegean Macedonia which is a region in Greece and Pirin Macedonia which is a region in Bulgaria) one of the six Yugoslav republics.

After Macedonia (FYROM) became independent in 1991, the Bulgarian authorities and public have protested vigorously against attempts by Macedonian officials and historians to "rewrite history" by proclaiming medieval and modern Bulgarian figures and events to be Macedonian, and against harassment of Slavic Macedonians who declare themselves to be Bulgarian.

Officially, the Bulgarian government has been seeking to improve its relations with the state of Macedonia but Slavic Macedonians (as opposed to the ethnic Albanian population in Macedonia) are widely seen as being part of the Bulgarian nation, at least historically.

These views have been translated in the official naturalization policy of the Bulgarian state, which is granting Bulgarian citizenship to increasing numbers of Macedonians based on proof of their Bulgarian origin, even such as Ottoman documents from the 19th century.

In 1991, Bulgaria became the first sovereign nation to recognize the independence of the Republic of Macedonia from the former Yugoslavia. In the late 1990s, Bulgaria and Macedonia worked out a compromise under which Bulgaria recognized Macedonia's right to call its constitutional language "Macedonian" even though it still considers it a dialect of Bulgarian.
Logged
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 850

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 02:33:09 PM »

It's a complex, confused situation, but I sincerely hope for the sake of efforts to heal this schism that the Church of Bulgaria doesn't get involved. We already have the Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Serbian Orthodox Church maintaining parallel structures in the country - there's no need for a third set of ecclesiastical structures :-/.
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 02:41:19 PM »

It's a complex, confused situation, but I sincerely hope for the sake of efforts to heal this schism that the Church of Bulgaria doesn't get involved. We already have the Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Serbian Orthodox Church maintaining parallel structures in the country - there's no need for a third set of ecclesiastical structures :-/.

There is no need for even two parallel structures. Let the folks who live there decide with their feet and wallets.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 02:50:35 PM »

They are no parallel. One is right and one is not.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 03:04:30 PM »

They are no parallel. One is right and one is not.
Now, would you enlighten us who's right and who's wrong?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 03:13:07 PM »

The one your Church is in communion with.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 07:02:14 PM »

Hello everybody!

The scandalous statement of the (unrecognised) Archbishop Stefan can be watched here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuL2Kaz2TfU
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »

Hello everybody!

The scandalous statement of the (unrecognised) Archbishop Stefan can be watched here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuL2Kaz2TfU
Oh dear, that was his Christmas message?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 07:34:06 PM »

Oh dear, that was his Christmas message?

I am aftaid this has been the core content of his Christmas interview ...

In fact, the real reason for the schism of the (unrecognised) Macedonian Orthodox Church (MPC) with the Serbian Orthodox Church lies in the fact that MPC has been established by a Communist Party directive (in 1967):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATY99w3Iyk&feature=related
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 07:37:40 PM by Thinker » Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »

Аnother piece of the puzzlе:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/east-mediterranean/hate-speech-back-fyrom-analysis-501540
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2011, 12:02:59 AM »

Oh dear, that was his Christmas message?

I am aftaid this has been the core content of his Christmas interview ...

In fact, the real reason for the schism of the (unrecognised) Macedonian Orthodox Church (MPC) with the Serbian Orthodox Church lies in the fact that MPC has been established by a Communist Party directive (in 1967):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATY99w3Iyk&feature=related

The CP directive played a part but the real reason for the establishment of the MOC is the existence of a Macedonian nation, language and culture--at least in the mind of its adherents. I happen to believe that these folks are Macedonian-Bulgarian, just as I am, but my opinion does not count for I am an American citizen. As many know, this issue is not simply an academic one and has real-life complexities (the First and Second Balkan Wars, WWI and even local-applications during WWII). It may best that there is indeed a Republic of Macedonia and a MOC for I do not imagine that the Serbs, Greeks and even Turks would look kindly to a Greater Bulgaria, even if it came in the form of the restoration of the rightful historical Church of Bulgaria that includes its ancient see of Ohrid. Therefore, the benign solution is to allow folks in the Republic of Macedonia to decide for themselves who they are. The suppression of those residents who choose to be ethnic Bulgarians is simply wrong and an insult to all those who fought to hold on to their ethnicity even in the face of vigorous ethnic warfare waged against them by their Orthodox "brother" Serbs and Greeks, and now "Macedonians."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:04:42 AM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2011, 08:59:35 AM »

Let's go back to the point.  The (unrecognised) MOC Archbishop Stefan gave a hate speech against the Bulgarians there.

Once they feel deeply offended and hated (without any real reason for that), they have the right to protest and to look for an alternative solution!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 09:03:13 AM by Thinker » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2011, 09:45:50 AM »

Let's go back to the point.  The (unrecognised) MOC Archbishop Stefan gave a hate speech against the Bulgarians there.

Once they feel deeply offended and hated (without any real reason for that), they have the right to protest and to look for an alternative solution!
Sadly, the striving for "National Autocephalous Churches" and racism are often found together. The Church is beyond arbitrary national borders (which, lets face it, have changed innumerable times over the centuries).
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2011, 10:51:16 AM »

Let's go back to the point.  The (unrecognised) MOC Archbishop Stefan gave a hate speech against the Bulgarians there.

Once they feel deeply offended and hated (without any real reason for that), they have the right to protest and to look for an alternative solution!
Sadly, the striving for "National Autocephalous Churches" and racism are often found together. The Church is beyond arbitrary national borders (which, lets face it, have changed innumerable times over the centuries).
Why does Bulgaria and Greece have a national church but why Belarus and Ukraine don't? All the Orthodox faithful of the Balkans amount to less people than the orthodox population of the Republic of Ukraine. It is idiotic that in the Balkans every square kilometre is primordial ethnic space, even though the Slavs there are not native and were there for the majority of history a minority people.
Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, should all be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. At most Bulgaria and Greece should be metropolitanate within the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The peoples of Ukraine all should be under a Patriarch with his seat at the city of Kiev, I would also put the faithful of Belarus and Poland under the patriarchate of Kiev. The Patriarchate of Moscow should keep its nose in its own affairs, the Russian Federation is falling away from the faith, Islam is growing, the people do not believe in the Tsar and Fatherland rhetoric of the Russian Church. The Ukrainian identity is going through its birth pains but soon it will produce a new reality, I will not be shocked if the Pieracki card is not played by the Ukrainians as Tabacznyk has had death threats. The nationalists may be a minority, they may not even exist in the Ukrainian Parliament but they can shape the future of the Ukrainian nation and its identity, like the Endecja National Democrats in Poland or the Legion of St.Michael in Romania before the War.
Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 409



« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »

Quote
Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, should all be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. At most Bulgaria and Greece should be metropolitanate within the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The peoples of Ukraine all should be under a Patriarch with his seat at the city of Kiev, I would also put the faithful of Belarus and Poland under the patriarchate of Kiev...

And why they should be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate? The first Bulgarian Patriarchate was established in 927.

As for Macedonia, nowadays the Macedonians identify as a separate nation, I understand this, so I think the only Orthodox church there should be the Macedonian Orthodox Church. But only if ever Macedonians manage to respect their neighbours and stop stealing Greek and Bulgarian history and heritage. I support the Macedonian Orthodox Church mainly because historically the Serbian Patriarchate had no presence there and the Ohrid Archbishopric had always been a Bulgarian ecclesiastic body, something that even Archbishop Jovan accepts. The jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarchate is something foreign to these lands. All Macedonian Bishops were Bulgarians until 1918 when they were expelled from Macedonia and Phanar sold these Macedonian Bulgarian dioceses to the Serbian Patriarchate, a fact that Archbishop Jovan also accepts.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:35:23 AM by ag_vn » Logged
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 850

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2011, 12:49:02 PM »

I think an important difference between Ukraine and Macedonia is that in Macedonia a majority of the Orthodox continue to submit to the independent Church of Macedonia, whereas in Ukraine even under the nationalist Yushchenko the vast majority of the churches remained loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate, which is the heir of the old pre-Polish Kiev Metropolia.
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 01:02:01 PM »

I think an important difference between Ukraine and Macedonia is that in Macedonia a majority of the Orthodox continue to submit to the independent Church of Macedonia, whereas in Ukraine even under the nationalist Yushchenko the vast majority of the churches remained loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate, which is the heir of the old pre-Polish Kiev Metropolia.
I was under the impression that the majority of churches in Ukraine were NOT under the jurisdiction of the Moscow patriarchate.
Logged
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 850

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 01:45:52 PM »

It's something like 10,000 under the MP to 3,000 under the KP. I'll see if I can find where that was cited...
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 850

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 02:27:00 PM »

Wikipedia was the quickest to come up - 8,500 parishes under the Moscow Patriarchate (over 800 in the process of constructing new churches), 3,700 under the Kyiv Patriarchate, and 1,100 under the main UAOC synod (there are one or two UAOC synods claiming that name due to the events involved in the formation of the Kyiv Patriarchate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Ukraine#Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_.28Moscow_Patriarchate.29
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 03:55:25 PM »

I think an important difference between Ukraine and Macedonia is that in Macedonia a majority of the Orthodox continue to submit to the independent Church of Macedonia, whereas in Ukraine even under the nationalist Yushchenko the vast majority of the churches remained loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate, which is the heir of the old pre-Polish Kiev Metropolia.

We never know what the majority in the Republic of Macedonia is willing to support as things there change too fast. However, we know for sure that thousands of Macedonian citizens applied and obtained a Bulgarian citizenship, while over twice more are still waiting on the queue for Bulgarian nationality.

The comparison with the relationship between the Ukraine and Russia is not, in fact, very relevant in this case.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 03:56:32 PM by Thinker » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »

Let's go back to the point.  The (unrecognised) MOC Archbishop Stefan gave a hate speech against the Bulgarians there.

Once they feel deeply offended and hated (without any real reason for that), they have the right to protest and to look for an alternative solution!
Sadly, the striving for "National Autocephalous Churches" and racism are often found together. "The Church is beyond arbitrary national borders (which, lets face it, have changed innumerable times over the centuries).

You have put your finger on an essential truth. I would also say that ethnic pride in multi-national settings can also cause the same problems. The principle that "the Church should be beyond arbitrary national borders" is an ancient and persistent one. One finds it as a pillar of governance in the Roman, Ottoman and Russian Empires. In each instance, one ethnic group, under the guise of this noble non-ethnic organizational principle, lorded it over the other ethnic groups, and even attempted (often violently) to force them to renounce their ethnicity for the self-proclaimed larger "non-ethnicity." We are all familiar with the smoke and mirrors played with Holy Rus and Hellenism. I must admit however that all of this behavior was predictable and in accordance with organizational behavior: standardization occupies at least 80% of management's attention, even in most modern, transformative organizations.

OK, let's get back to reality and we should approach it from the beginning. First, the early church was a loose confederation of churches. After the Church became the partner (and at times tool) of the state, it was standardized and organized to suit the purposes of both the state and church bureaucracies. Par for the course for large states and organizations but I would submit not necessarily in accordance with the Holy Scriptures, the Early Fathers and their practices--that is, an arrangement that was suitable, at best, for the circumstances that the Church found herself in. A precedent for sure but not prescriptive for us.

Second, the main principle of church organization is the Ignation model of "one bishop, surrounded by his priests, deacons, and laity." This ontologically complete church may be as small as one church, several churches in one city, or still larger amounts in a metropolitan area-a diocese.

Third, the Lord Himself tells us to "...go and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19) and Saint Luke's Book of Acts makes clear that such effort should accommodate the particular ethnic makeup of the target audience--that is in the vernacular (Acts 2) and without any extra requirements (Acts 15).

Just as the Church found herself within the context of empires (and adjusted accordingly), so did She find herself within the context of nations later on (and is still adjusting in certain places). I would submit that neither adjustments are prescriptive, notwithstanding the fact that they are indeed two different precedents. But, so is the very first and truest of Orthodox praxis.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 04:00:37 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 04:13:09 PM »

the Russian Federation is falling away from the faith, Islam is growing, the people do not believe in the Tsar and Fatherland rhetoric of the Russian Church.

You have, I suppose, evidence of mass apostasy to Islam in the Russian Federation or that the Russian Church is pushing tsarism as policy?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 09:10:29 PM »

Those, who can read Bulgarian, could look at http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12596/33/ where the statement of the Bulgarian club is published in full.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 10:09:24 PM »

Let's go back to the point.  The (unrecognised) MOC Archbishop Stefan gave a hate speech against the Bulgarians there.

Once they feel deeply offended and hated (without any real reason for that), they have the right to protest and to look for an alternative solution!
Sadly, the striving for "National Autocephalous Churches" and racism are often found together. The Church is beyond arbitrary national borders (which, lets face it, have changed innumerable times over the centuries).
Why does Bulgaria and Greece have a national church but why Belarus and Ukraine don't?
The "Church of Greece" does not have jurisdiction over the whole of Greece. The Oecumenical Patriarchate has jurisdiction over Central and Northern Greece and the Islands. So we cannot actually say that "Greece has a national Church", we can only say that there is a "Nationalist Church in Greece". Smiley
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:09:41 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 08:10:17 PM »

The face of "Saint" Alexander the Great (Alexander of Macedon) -
Fresco in the new church of Pustec (Mala Prespa region, Albania), controlled by the (unrecognised) Macedonian Orthodox Church:



Can you believe this?!

Extract from the EurActiv Article:
Quote
To help the authorities resolve the ethnic identity crisis and provide 'history-based' arguments for the name dispute with Greece, the MOC promotes non-Christian pagan symbols and rituals (e.g. the Vergina Sun and the Rosetta Stone) in Orthodox Churches in Macedonia, ....

By the way, the Vergina Sun is on the right side of Alexander as well!  Smiley
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2011, 08:22:31 PM »

He is not depicted as a Saint.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2011, 08:40:11 PM »

He is not depicted as a Saint.

That is a great discovery - congratulations!  Grin
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2011, 09:08:45 PM »

The face of "Saint" Alexander the Great (Alexander of Macedon) -
Fresco in the new church of Pustec (Mala Prespa region, Albania), controlled by the (unrecognised) Macedonian Orthodox Church:



Can you believe this?!

Extract from the EurActiv Article:
Quote
To help the authorities resolve the ethnic identity crisis and provide 'history-based' arguments for the name dispute with Greece, the MOC promotes non-Christian pagan symbols and rituals (e.g. the Vergina Sun and the Rosetta Stone) in Orthodox Churches in Macedonia, ....

By the way, the Vergina Sun is on the right side of Alexander as well!  Smiley


More knowledgeable people corrected me – in fact, the fresco is from the church of Radovish (Republic of Macedonia).

The Alexander’s father “Saint” Philip II of Macedon is also there:



Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2011, 05:06:24 AM »

They don't have halos and they are not titled as Saints.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2011, 05:30:36 AM »

They don't have halos and they are not titled as Saints.

Are you aware of any other pagan ancient heroes painted in Christian frescoes?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 05:44:29 AM by Thinker » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2011, 05:40:54 AM »



600 × 417 - The Philosophers Suite {Aristotle, Plato, Sofocles, Socrates], Monastery of Sucevita.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2011, 05:53:47 AM »

600 × 417 - The Philosophers Suite {Aristotle, Plato, Sofocles, Socrates], Monastery of Sucevita.



Quote
The architecture ot the church contains both Byzantine and gothic elements, and some elements typical to other painted churches of northern Moldavia. Both interior and exterior walls are covered by mural paintings, which are of great artistic value and depict biblical episodes from the Old and New Testament. The paintings date from around 1601, which makes Suceviţa one of the last monasteries to be decorated in the famous Moldavian style of exterior paintings.

Are the ancient philosophers painted inside or outside?
So, you think that Christian frescoes could contain virtually everything?  Huh
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 05:54:28 AM by Thinker » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2011, 05:57:08 AM »

No, I don't think that but I think there are better and less childish arguments against the Macedonian Orthodox Church than you present.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2011, 06:16:48 AM »

No, I don't think that but I think there are better and less childish arguments against the Macedonian Orthodox Church than you present.

1. So, your painted philosophers are on the outside walls of the Moldavian Church! Wink Was it a relevant example then?

2. In accordance with the canonical rules, the Christian frescoes are not the right place for pagan heroes. Hopefully, you agree with that?

3. I did not present any argument (neither “pro-“, nor “anti-“) regarding the (unrecognised) MOC. I have just referred to a number of frescoes and relevant articles in mass media, which might be of common interest.
Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2011, 06:30:17 AM »

The Vergina Sun in the same church of Radovish (Republic of Macedonia):

Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2011, 06:39:09 AM »

Here is the interior wall and the windows around which the above-metioned frescoes of Alexander and Philip are painted.

Logged
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2011, 06:49:25 AM »

The MOC Archbishop Stefan with the main sponsor of the same Radovish church:



I am wondering what flags are placed in the Stefan's office?  Huh
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2011, 07:24:54 AM »

No, I don't think that but I think there are better and less childish arguments against the Macedonian Orthodox Church than you present.

1. So, your painted philosophers are on the outside walls of the Moldavian Church! Wink Was it a relevant example then?

Explain me a canonical difference between the walls inside and outside the Church. Why frescoes inside are bad and outside are OK?
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2011, 11:04:17 AM »

The main difference between the frescoes of the great Greek philosophers and those of Macedonian kings is the reason for their placement.  The philosophers are examples of God's majesty and mercy because they used their God-given talents in a way that added to humanity. King Philip and Emperor Constantine were merely successful worldly powers. But, the reason why they are on the wall is to bolster the nation building effort in Macedonia-there is no religious reason. I think that the use of churches for this purpose is not appropriate (not that the Macedonians are the only ones guilty of that).
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Thinker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2011, 11:52:58 AM »

Explain me a canonical difference between the walls inside and outside the Church. Why frescoes inside are bad and outside are OK?

Almost everything could be outside! Smiley For example:

Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.14 seconds with 71 queries.