Author Topic: If A&E never took the apple  (Read 1197 times)

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Offline TryingtoConvert

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If A&E never took the apple
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:04:53 PM »
Since God allowed Satan in the world and Adam and Eve could make a choice, if they didn't listen to the devil...what would become of him?

Offline Aindriú

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 12:19:31 PM »
Since God allowed Satan in the world and Adam and Eve could make a choice, if they didn't listen to the devil...what would become of him?

What would become of the devil?

Satan's fate is his own. He made his choice. He may desire us to join him in misery, but it is always our choice. Even if we don't join him, he will maintain his lonely separation from God.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 01:04:10 PM »
Since God allowed Satan in the world and Adam and Eve could make a choice, if they didn't listen to the devil...what would become of him?

Because of the way god created. Creation is dependent on communion with god for sustainability. That doesn't automatically mean that the existence of the devil will cease. If god wills him to exist beyond what the laws allow. It's possible in order to serve some purpose to others or as torment for his rebellion.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 02:48:10 PM »
I thought this thread was going to be about the cable channel A&E (Arts and Entertainment) taking an Apple computer or something... what a bummer.

As to the question, I think according to Christian theology he'd still burn in the lake of fire. After all, his rebellion wasn't dependent on tricking Adam and Eve. I think? *shrugs*

Offline orthonorm

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 06:05:56 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 06:07:43 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

True, only when you take Scripture and Tradition into account is the connection made.  8)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 06:10:08 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

True, only when you take Scripture and Tradition into account is the connection made.  8)

Wrong.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 06:14:24 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

True, only when you take Scripture and Tradition into account is the connection made.  8)

Wrong.

I concede the point.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 06:18:16 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

True, only when you take Scripture and Tradition into account is the connection made.  8)

Wrong.

I concede the point.

This is how every thread should go. It would save a lot of time.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline NorthernPines

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 07:09:08 PM »
Since God allowed Satan in the world and Adam and Eve could make a choice, if they didn't listen to the devil...what would become of him?


Don't you know anything? It was a pomegranate, not an apple.  ;D

Offline Quinault

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 08:06:17 PM »
I thought it was an avocado.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 08:13:53 PM »
According to the movie White Men Can't Jump, it was a quince. I believe this is accurate for three reasons: first, this was the only movie that Woody Harrelson made that was any good; second, this movie was made back when Wesley Snipes was actually cool; and third, this reference to a quince was made in a fictional episode of Jeopardy, and let's face it, nothing can be more authoritative than Jeopardy.

Offline Saint Iaint

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 08:29:34 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

What do you mean by this?

Are you trying to say that the serpent in the garden was not Satan?

Can you expand on this statement and your reasoning behind it?

Thanks,

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Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 11:40:46 PM »
There can only be speculation.  Perhaps, Satan in seeing that he is unable to make man fall, may lead to repentance himself.  Who knows?

But in any case, many Church fathers have speculated that God would have been incarnate even if Adam didn't disobey, as a completeness of Adam and Eve's maturity into spiritual growth.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline NorthernPines

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 10:59:31 AM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

What do you mean by this?

Are you trying to say that the serpent in the garden was not Satan?

Can you expand on this statement and your reasoning behind it?

Thanks,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†



I think he means that when the Adam and Eve story was written, the writer probably did not think the serpent was "Satan", Lucifer or whatever one wants to call him. That's really a very different discussion involving history, scholarship, the history of doctrines and the history of Biblical interpretation.

Offline NorthernPines

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 11:00:46 AM »
According to the movie White Men Can't Jump, it was a quince. I believe this is accurate for three reasons: first, this was the only movie that Woody Harrelson made that was any good; second, this movie was made back when Wesley Snipes was actually cool; and third, this reference to a quince was made in a fictional episode of Jeopardy, and let's face it, nothing can be more authoritative than Jeopardy.


You know, I'm ashamed to say I've never seen White Men Can't Jump! Please don't excommunicate me for this. ;)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2011, 09:56:21 PM »
According to the movie White Men Can't Jump, it was a quince. I believe this is accurate for three reasons: first, this was the only movie that Woody Harrelson made that was any good; second, this movie was made back when Wesley Snipes was actually cool; and third, this reference to a quince was made in a fictional episode of Jeopardy, and let's face it, nothing can be more authoritative than Jeopardy.


You know, I'm ashamed to say I've never seen White Men Can't Jump! Please don't excommunicate me for this. ;)


Really, it is a good movie, believe it or not.

And Woody was great in A Prairie Home Companion, A Scanner Darkly, and No Country for Old Men.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Saint Iaint

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Re: If A&E never took the apple
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2011, 10:36:13 PM »
The serpent is not always conflated with "Satan" or the "Devil".

What do you mean by this?

Are you trying to say that the serpent in the garden was not Satan?

Can you expand on this statement and your reasoning behind it?

Thanks,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†



I think he means that when the Adam and Eve story was written, the writer probably did not think the serpent was "Satan", Lucifer or whatever one wants to call him. That's really a very different discussion involving history, scholarship, the history of doctrines and the history of Biblical interpretation.

Thanks NorthernPines,

I know there are many things we don't agree on...

But I'm glad to see that at least you can be civil towards me.

Too bad everyone here were not as mature.

As for your reply on Orthonorm's behalf... I'm not sure that's what was meant by his statement.

He never said the serpent "was not" always conflated... He said the serpent "is not" always conflated with the Devil.

Too bad he couldn't just reply to me himself (rather than ignore me - then reply to you just to rub it in)...

Seems like perhaps I've managed to attain 'pariah status' to some extent here.

Oh well. Like Helen Thomas - I stand by what I've said, and I only ever say what I firmly believe to be true.

If people want to demonstrate that I'm wrong about something... ignoring me; ridiculing me; silencing me does not accomplish that.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.