OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 09:52:28 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Axios Gay and Lesbian Orthodox Group?  (Read 13358 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,496


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #180 on: January 21, 2011, 11:13:27 PM »


Like I said, just cite for me one other OO theologian who agrees with you.  Just one.  Please.

Otherwise, what it means is that, throughout the entire history of tradition of the OO Church, not once has anyone else of consequence come to this same conclusion.  This means you are either the most brilliant of their theologians, or you have erred.  I'm going to go with the latter, particularly now that you are trying to avoid my request for a citation.

It would also be my argument that the Scriptural injunctions against homosexual conduct constitute offical teachings of the OO Church, unless you believe it is a policy of the OO Church that Scripture must be confirmed through an additional ruling of some sort.  If so, I would also ask that you cite your source for that as well.

I love my OO friends and feel you are doing them a disservice by misrepresenting their Church.  If their are other OO posters who feel I am out of line by pursuing this line of questioning, I would be happy to hear from them.


To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allows for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.

You are correct Father. Thank you.

Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #181 on: January 21, 2011, 11:34:57 PM »

To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allow for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.

LOL. So if two gay men asked a priest to marry them, what would happen? They would be denied. Or if the priest didn't know, the bishop would deny them. Therefore the Church has an official teaching on the matter. (And the Church does officially teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, unquestionably.)

Just because there is no canon stating so, does not mean there is no official teaching. It means the official teaching is so consistent, it has never even required clarification or definition.

As much as I would like to respond to you, it's not really safe for me to do so.

Then please do so on the private forum. I'd like to hear more regarding the principle that if there are no official canons which enumerate a certain behavior as "missing the mark", therefore that specific behavior can be practiced licitly by an Orthodox Christian. Is this principle in the Tradition? Does Holy Scripture also play a role in moral guidance?
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #182 on: January 22, 2011, 01:21:39 AM »

On the EO side, there is no such principle.  My suspicion is that there is no such principle on the OO side either, and that he has invented it for himself.

Both OO and EO Christians, just as RC Christians, are guided by the Scriptures when it comes to morality and none of their precepts have been abrogated by the hierarchy.

Otherwise, we'd have no objections to such things as drug abuse, internet porn or identity theft.  After all, they are not mentioned by the canons, but I can't see any sane bishop not condemning them.




Then please do so on the private forum. I'd like to hear more regarding the principle that if there are no official canons which enumerate a certain behavior as "missing the mark", therefore that specific behavior can be practiced licitly by an Orthodox Christian. Is this principle in the Tradition? Does Holy Scripture also play a role in moral guidance?
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #183 on: January 22, 2011, 05:17:45 PM »

I don't recognize homosexual behavior as inherently immoral

Does it matter? We are not our own moral compasses.

Did you forget who you were talking to? Deusveritasest is infallible. What he thinks, considers, recognizes, or believes is, by definition, incontrovertible truth.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:19:46 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #184 on: January 22, 2011, 05:25:46 PM »

I don't recognize homosexual behavior as inherently immoral

Does it matter? We are not our own moral compasses.

Did you forget who you were talking to? Deusveritasest is infallible. What he thinks, considers, recognizes, or believes is, by definition, incontrovertible truth.
Why such harsh words? deusveritasest simply stated what he believes, and made it clear that it was his personal opinion. To extrapolate from that that he believes that his opinion is what everyone should believe is pure hyperbole.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,551


« Reply #185 on: January 22, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.


ELEVATION

Au-dessus des étangs, au-dessus des vallées,
Des montagnes, des bois, des nuages, des mers,
Par delà le soleil, par delà les éthers,
Par delà les confins des sphères étoilées,


English translation and a sourcelink, please.
Logged
chatelaa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia)
Posts: 30


« Reply #186 on: January 22, 2011, 05:54:40 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:26:02 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,496


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #187 on: January 22, 2011, 08:24:40 PM »


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA


This is a straw man argument. Historically, Christians have suffered more hatred, discrimintaion, and derision than homosexuals (not many Hollywood movies made about that.) And calling homosexuality a perversion is not hatred. It is a Christian truth, and it would be hateful not to proclaim that truth.

Please realize that there is a huge difference between self-righteous, hypocritical judgement and proclaiming what the Scriptures and the Church teach. It is true, sadly, that some in the name of Christ have demonstrated hatred towards homosexuals by their rhetoric and their actions. But please do not accuse those of us who simply profess what the Church teaches as being guilty of hatred. 

Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,448


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #188 on: January 22, 2011, 08:31:23 PM »


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA


This is a straw man argument. Historically, Christians have suffered more hatred, discrimintaion, and derision than homosexuals (not many Hollywood movies made about that.) And calling homosexuality a perversion is not hatred. It is a Christian truth, and it would be hateful not to proclaim that truth.

Please realize that there is a huge difference between self-righteous, hypocritical judgement and proclaiming what the Scriptures and the Church teach. It is true, sadly, that some in the name of Christ have demonstrated hatred towards homosexuals by their rhetoric and their actions. But please do not accuse those of us who simply profess what the Church teaches as being guilty of hatred. 

Selam


Amen!
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #189 on: January 22, 2011, 10:30:15 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA

Christ called people to repent all the time, as did his Forerunner and his Apostles. Christ told the woman who was in fornication with seven husbands to repent. Was he "hating on" her? No, he was telling her the only way she could find life. Relaying the Church's unquestionable teachings is vastly different from saying "I condemn you to hell."
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 10:31:10 PM by bogdan » Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2011, 02:05:11 AM »



I don't think the issue has ever been hatred of homosexuals, but rather the twisting of God's instructions to us.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! (Isaiah 5:20-23)


When someone calls homosexual conduct a good, or, as one poster would have it, a 'not-evil,' then we are abandoning what the Scriptures and centuries of the Church's experience has taught us.  We are foresaking the gift of sanity for the realm of self-indulgence of the fallen intellect and flesh.

I have no doubt that there are many homosexuals who are worthy of the Kingdom, and far more of them deserve a place at the Lord's Table than I do.  But, the price of admission is repentance.  If they do not repent of their proclivities, as we all must do with our temptations, then they cannot enter the Kingdom.  We are called to enter, but we must have the robe washed by Baptism and many tears.  Just because the Lord has opened the feast to us sinners, we ought not hop the fence.  We must still enter the proper way... through the Door of Repentence.

Excusing homosexual conduct is akin to denying them their means of salvation: their struggle with this temptation will save them, yet we seek instead to deny this cross.  It is never a loving act to tell another person to give in to their temptations.  It is even worse when someone tries to misrepresent the Church's teachings on the matter.

This is what most of us are reacting to.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2011, 02:43:33 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA
To those of you who have quoted this post (Gebre, Maria, and Bogdan), I have to ask this question: What do you read in this post that justifies the responses you have all given? Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination? I share your desire to call homosexual relations what the Church has always called them: a destructive sin just like all destructive sins. Like you, I don't shy away from speaking the truth on this matter. However, I see nothing in the substance of chatelaa's post to indicate that she disagrees with us. She has chosen to focus on a different aspect of the discussion of homosexuality: the problem of how we are to relate to homosexual persons. And she is right.

Yes, we are to call homosexual relations what they are: sinful. Anything less would be unlovingly dishonest. But we are also to not judge gays and lesbians, nor are we to condemn them. Outside of the Church, where I can see no granting of any blessing or position to any brazenly unrepentant participant in any sinful behavior, I do recognize how gays have been discriminated against and how they have been the object of our sinful prejudice and hatred. This is what I see chatelaa pointing out. I don't think her words were even meant for you and the position you (and I) advocate.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 02:53:47 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,496


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #192 on: January 23, 2011, 02:51:58 AM »




I don't think the issue has ever been hatred of homosexuals, but rather the twisting of God's instructions to us.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! (Isaiah 5:20-23)


When someone calls homosexual conduct a good, or, as one poster would have it, a 'not-evil,' then we are abandoning what the Scriptures and centuries of the Church's experience has taught us.  We are foresaking the gift of sanity for the realm of self-indulgence of the fallen intellect and flesh.

I have no doubt that there are many homosexuals who are worthy of the Kingdom, and far more of them deserve a place at the Lord's Table than I do.  But, the price of admission is repentance.  If they do not repent of their proclivities, as we all must do with our temptations, then they cannot enter the Kingdom.  We are called to enter, but we must have the robe washed by Baptism and many tears.  Just because the Lord has opened the feast to us sinners, we ought not hop the fence.  We must still enter the proper way... through the Door of Repentence.

Excusing homosexual conduct is akin to denying them their means of salvation: their struggle with this temptation will save them, yet we seek instead to deny this cross.  It is never a loving act to tell another person to give in to their temptations.  It is even worse when someone tries to misrepresent the Church's teachings on the matter.

This is what most of us are reacting to.


Father Bless,

You have spoken well.

Thank you.


Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #193 on: January 23, 2011, 06:56:37 AM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about? I have been Christian Orthodox for all of my 44 years and the only preaching on this subject I have ever seen has been on this forum.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:57:44 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #194 on: January 23, 2011, 10:21:42 AM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about? I have been Christian Orthodox for all of my 44 years and the only preaching on this subject I have ever seen has been on this forum.
That's right I think. I've never head a priest back home say a thing on the subject, never, in real life, I mean.
But, here in America, I heard two priests (Antiochian and OCA, but very neocon types) make jokes about homosexuals in their sermons.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 10:27:08 AM by augustin717 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #195 on: January 23, 2011, 10:52:36 AM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about?
Not about any of the preaching you haven't heard where you've been.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #196 on: January 23, 2011, 11:17:57 AM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about?
Not about any of the preaching you haven't heard where you've been.
I can't work out if that response is a double negative, but either way I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to say.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #197 on: January 23, 2011, 11:20:04 AM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about? I have been Christian Orthodox for all of my 44 years and the only preaching on this subject I have ever seen has been on this forum.
That's right I think. I've never head a priest back home say a thing on the subject, never, in real life, I mean.
But, here in America, I heard two priests (Antiochian and OCA, but very neocon types) make jokes about homosexuals in their sermons.
Perhaps it's an American concern because of the politics on the issue there.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #198 on: January 23, 2011, 06:32:35 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

St. John Chrysostom, from Homily 4 on Romans:

Quote
And this is why he did not say being swept along or being overtaken, an expression he uses elsewhere; but what? working. They made a business of the sin, and not only a business, but even one zealously followed up.
Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #199 on: January 23, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about? I have been Christian Orthodox for all of my 44 years and the only preaching on this subject I have ever seen has been on this forum.
That's right I think. I've never head a priest back home say a thing on the subject, never, in real life, I mean.
But, here in America, I heard two priests (Antiochian and OCA, but very neocon types) make jokes about homosexuals in their sermons.
Perhaps it's an American concern because of the politics on the issue there.

The lack of sermonizing on this subject only proves that homosexual behavior is so far off the radar of what is acceptable according to church tradition as not even to necessitate preaching against. Greed, covetousness, mercilessness, gossip, etc., are more often preached against because they are more common and there are greater numbers of people interested in, and engaged in, justifying them.

But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:

Romans I. 26, 27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another.

All these affections then were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored, than the body in diseases. But behold how here too, as in the case of the doctrines, he deprives them of excuse, by saying of the women, that they changed the natural use. For no one, he means, can say that it was by being hindered of legitimate intercourse that they came to this pass, or that it was from having no means to fulfil their desire that they were driven into this monstrous insaneness. For the changing implies possession. Which also when discoursing upon the doctrines he said, They changed the truth of God for a lie. And with regard to the men again, he shows the same thing by saying, Leaving the natural use of the woman. And in a like way with those, these he also puts out of all means of defending themselves by charging them not only that they had the means of gratification, and left that which they had, and went after another, but that having dishonored that which was natural, they ran after that which was contrary to nature. But that which is contrary to nature has in it an irksomeness and displeasingness, so that they could not fairly allege even pleasure. For genuine pleasure is that which is according to nature. But when God has left one, then all things are turned upside down. And thus not only was their doctrine Satanical, but their life too was diabolical. Now when he was discoursing of their doctrines, he put before them the world and man's understanding, telling them that, by the judgment afforded them by God, they might through the things which are seen, have been led as by the hand to the Creator, and then, by not willing to do so, they remained inexcusable. Here in the place of the world he sets the pleasure according to nature, which they would have enjoyed with more sense of security and greater glad-heartedness, and so have been far removed from shameful deeds. But they would not; whence they are quite out of the pale of pardon, and have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more sense of shame than men. And here too the judgment of Paul is worthy of admiration, how having fallen upon two opposite matters he accomplishes them both with all exactness. For he wished both to speak chastely and to sting the hearer. Now both these things were not in his power to do, but one hindered the other. For if you speak chastely you shall not be able to bear hard upon the hearer. But if you are minded to touch him to the quick, you are forced to lay the naked facts before him in plain terms. But his discreet and holy soul was able to do both with exactness, and by naming nature has at once given additional force to his accusation, and also used this as a sort of veil, to keep the chasteness of his description. And next, having reproached the women first, he goes on to the men also, and says, And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman. Which is an evident proof of the last degree of corruptness, when both sexes are abandoned, and both he that was ordained to be the instructor of the woman, and she who was bid to become an helpmate to the man, work the deeds of enemies against one another. And reflect too how significantly he uses his words. For he does not say that they were enamoured of, and lusted after one another, but, they burned in their lust one toward another. You see that the whole of desire comes of an exorbitancy which endures not to abide within its proper limits. For everything which transgresses the laws by God appointed, lusts after monstrous things and not those which be customary. For as many oftentimes having left the desire of food get to feed upon earth and small stones, and others being possessed by excessive thirst often long even for mire, thus these also ran into this ebullition of lawless love. But if you say, and whence came this intensity of lust? It was from the desertion of God: and whence is the desertion of God? From the lawlessness of them that left Him; men with men working that which is unseemly. Do not, he means, because you have heard that they burned, suppose that the evil was only in desire. For the greater part of it came of their luxuriousness, which also kindled into flame their lust. And this is why he did not say being swept along or being overtaken, an expression he uses elsewhere; but what? Working. They made a business of the sin, and not only a business, but even one zealously followed up. And he called it not lust, but that which is unseemly, and that properly. For they both dishonored nature, and trampled on the laws. And see the great confusion which fell out on both sides. For not only was the head turned downwards but the feet too were upwards, and they became enemies to themselves and to one another, bringing in a pernicious kind of strife, and one even more lawless than any civil war, and one rife in divisions, and of varied form. For they divided this into four new, and lawless kinds. Since (3 manuscripts whence) this war was not twofold or threefold, but even fourfold. Consider then. It was meet, that the two should be one, I mean the woman and the man. For the two, it says, shall be one flesh. Genesis 2:24 But this the desire of intercourse effected, and united the sexes to one another. This desire the devil having taken away, and having turned the course thereof into another fashion, he thus sundered the sexes from one another, and made the one to become two parts in opposition to the law of God. For it says, the two shall be one flesh; but he divided the one flesh into two: here then is one war. Again, these same two parts he provoked to war both against themselves and against one another. For even women again abused women, and not men only. And the men stood against one another, and against the female sex, as happens in a battle by night. You see a second and third war, and a fourth and fifth; there is also another, for beside what have been mentioned they also behaved lawlessly against nature itself. For when the Devil saw that this desire it is, principally, which draws the sexes together, he was bent on cutting through the tie, so as to destroy the race, not only by their not copulating lawfully, but also by their being stirred up to war, and in sedition against one another.

And receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. See how he goes again to the fountain head of the evil, namely, the impiety that comes of their doctrines, and this he says is a reward of that lawlessness. For since in speaking of hell and punishment, it seemed he would not at present be credible to the ungodly and deliberate choosers of such a life, but even scorned, he shows that the punishment was in this pleasure itself. (So Plato Theæt. p. 176, 7.) But if they perceive it not, but are still pleased, be not amazed. For even they that are mad, and are afflicted with phrenzy (cf. Soph. Aj. 265-277) while doing themselves much injury and making themselves such objects of compassion, that others weep over them themselves smile and revel over what has happened. Yet we do not only for this not say that they are quit of punishment, but for this very reason are under a more grievous vengeance, in that they are unconscious of the plight they are in. For it is not the disordered but those who are sound whose votes one has to gain. Yet of old the matter seemed even to be a law, and a certain law-giver among them bade the domestic slaves neither to use ointments when dry (i.e. except in bathing) nor to keep youths, giving the free this place of honor, or rather of shamefulness. Yet they, however, did not think the thing shameful, but as being a grand privilege, and one too great for slaves, the Athenian people, the wisest of people, and Solon who is so great among them, permitted it to the free alone. And sundry other books of the philosophers may one see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature: but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this were worse than any punishment. Yet if you say they found pleasure in it, you tell me what adds to the vengeance. For suppose I were to see a person running naked, with his body all besmeared with mire, and yet not covering himself, but exulting in it, I should not rejoice with him, but should rather bewail that he did not even perceive that he was doing shamefully. But that I may show the atrocity in a yet clearer light, bear with me in one more example. Now if any one condemned a virgin to live in close dens (θαλομευομένην), and to have intercourse with unreasoning brutes, and then she was pleased with such intercourse, would she not for this be especially a worthy object of tears, as being unable to be freed from this misery owing to her not even perceiving the misery? It is plain surely to every one. But if that were a grievous thing, neither is this less so than that. For to be insulted by one's own kinsmen is more piteous than to be so by strangers: these I say (5 manuscripts I consider) are even worse than murderers: since to die even is better than to live under such insolency. For the murderer dissevers the soul from the body, but this man ruins the soul with the body. And name what sin you will, none will you mention equal to this lawlessness. And if they that suffer such things perceived them, they would accept ten thousand deaths so they might not suffer this evil. For there is not, there surely is not, a more grievous evil than this insolent dealing. For if when discoursing about fornication Paul said, that Every sin which a man does is without the body, but he that commits fornication sins against his own body 1 Corinthians 6:18; what shall we say of this madness, which is so much worse than fornication as cannot even be expressed? For I should not only say that you have become a woman, but that you have lost your manhood, and hast neither changed into that nature nor kept that which you had, but you have been a traitor to both of them at once, and deserving both of men and women to be driven out and stoned, as having wronged either sex. And that you may learn what the real force of this is, if any one were to come and assure you that he would make you a dog instead of being a man, would you not flee from him as a plague? But, lo! You have not made yourself a dog out of a man, but an animal more disgraceful than this. For this is useful unto service, but he that has thus given himself up is serviceable for nothing. Or again, if any one threatened to make men travail and be brought to bed, should we not be filled with indignation? But lo! now they that have run into this fury have done more grievously by themselves. For it is not the same thing to change into the nature of women, as to continue a man and yet to have become a woman; or rather neither this nor that. But if you would know the enormity of the evil from other grounds, ask on what account the lawgivers punish them that make men eunuchs, and you will see that it is absolutely for no other reason than because they mutilate nature. And yet the injustice they do is nothing to this. For there have been those that were mutilated and were in many cases useful after their mutilation. But nothing can there be more worthless than a man who has pandered himself. For not the soul only, but the body also of one who has been so treated, is disgraced, and deserves to be driven out everywhere. How many hells shall be enough for such? But if you scoff at hearing of hell and believest not that fire, remember Sodom. For we have seen, surely we have seen, even in this present life, a semblance of hell. For since many would utterly disbelieve the things to come after the resurrection, hearing now of an unquenchable fire, God brings them to a right mind by things present. For such is the burning of Sodom, and that conflagration! And they know it well that have been at the place, and have seen with their eyes that scourge divinely sent, and the effect of the lightnings from above. Jude 7 Consider how great is that sin, to have forced hell to appear even before its time! For whereas many thought scorn of His words, by His deeds did God show them the image thereof in a certain novel way. For that rain was unwonted, for that the intercourse was contrary to nature, and it deluged the land, since lust had done so with their souls. Wherefore also the rain was the opposite of the customary rain. Now not only did it fail to stir up the womb of the earth to the production of fruits, but made it even useless for the reception of seed. For such was also the intercourse of the men, making a body of this sort more worthless than the very land of Sodom. And what is there more detestable than a man who has pandered himself, or what more execrable? Oh, what madness! Oh, what distraction! Whence came this lust lewdly revelling and making man's nature all that enemies could? Or even worse than that, by as much as the soul is better than the body. Oh, you that were more senseless than irrational creatures, and more shameless than dogs! For in no case does such intercourse take place with them, but nature acknowledges her own limits. But you have even made our race dishonored below things irrational, by such indignities inflicted upon and by each other. Whence then were these evils born? Of luxury; of not knowing God. For so soon as any have cast out the fear of Him, all that is good straightway goes to ruin.
Now, that this may not happen, let us keep clear before our eyes the fear of God. For nothing, surely nothing, so ruins a man as to slip from this anchor, as nothing saves so much as continually looking thereto. For if by having a man before our eyes we feel more backward at doing sins, and often even through feeling abashed at servants of a better stamp we keep from doing anything amiss, consider what safety we shall enjoy by having God before our eyes! For in no case will the Devil attack us when so conditioned, in that he would be laboring without profit. But should he see us wandering abroad, and going about without a bridle, by getting a beginning in ourselves he will be able to drive us off afterwards any whither. And as it happens with thoughtless servants at market, who leave the needful services which their masters have entrusted to them, and rivet themselves at a mere haphazard to those who fall in their way, and waste out their leisure there; this also we undergo when we depart from the commandments of God. For we presently get standing on, admiring riches, and beauty of person, and the other things which we have no business with, just as those servants attend to the beggars that do jugglers' feats, and then, arriving too late, have to be grievously beaten at home. And many pass the road set before them through following others, who are behaving in the same unseemly way. But let not us so do. For we have been sent to dispatch many affairs that are urgent. And if we leave those, and stand gaping at these useless things, all our time will be wasted in vain and to no profit, and we shall suffer the extreme of punishment. For if you wish yourself to be busy, you have whereat you ought to wonder, and to gape all your days, things which are no subject for laughter, but for wondering and manifold praises. As he that admires things ridiculous, will himself often be such, and even worse than he that occasions the laughter. And that you may not fall into this, spring away from it immediately. For why is it, pray, that you stand gaping and fluttering at sight of riches? What do you see so wonderful, and able to fix your eyes upon them? These gold-harnessed horses, these lackeys, partly savages, and partly eunuchs, and costly raiment, and the soul that is getting utterly soft in all this, and the haughty brow, and the bustlings, and the noise? And wherein do these things deserve wonder? What are they better than the beggars that dance and pipe in the market-place? For these too being taken with a sore famine of virtue, dance a dance more ridiculous than theirs, led and carried round at one time to costly tables, at another to the lodging of prostitute women, and at another to a swarm of flatterers and a host of hangers-on. But if they do wear gold, this is why they are the most pitiable, because the things which are nothing to them, are most the subject of their eager desire. Do not now, I pray, look at their raiment, but open their soul, and consider if it is not full of countless wounds, and clad with rags, and destitute, and defenceless! What then is the use of this madness of shows? For it were much better to be poor and living in virtue, than to be a king with wickedness; since the poor man in himself enjoys all the delights of the soul, and does not even perceive his outward poverty for his inward riches. But the king, luxurious in those things which do not at all belong to him, is punished in those things which are his most real concern, even the soul, the thoughts, and the conscience, which are to go away with him to the other world. Since then we know these things, let us lay aside the gilded raiment, let us take up virtue and the pleasure which comes thereof. For so, both here and hereafter, shall we come to enjoy great delights, through the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom, and with Whom, be glory to the Father, with the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen.

Personally, I think people are right to condemn those who make jokes about people with same-sex attraction or "clobber" or persecute them, or obsess over this sin (or any other), as it is usually evident that their disgust and anxiety over this sin comes from prejudice and not love of truth. But there is nothing wrong, on the other hand, with being forthright and honest about the gravity of this sin, as Chrysostom is.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 07:00:36 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,302



« Reply #200 on: January 23, 2011, 07:17:53 PM »



I don't think the issue has ever been hatred of homosexuals, but rather the twisting of God's instructions to us.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! (Isaiah 5:20-23)


When someone calls homosexual conduct a good, or, as one poster would have it, a 'not-evil,' then we are abandoning what the Scriptures and centuries of the Church's experience has taught us.  We are foresaking the gift of sanity for the realm of self-indulgence of the fallen intellect and flesh.

I have no doubt that there are many homosexuals who are worthy of the Kingdom, and far more of them deserve a place at the Lord's Table than I do.  But, the price of admission is repentance.  If they do not repent of their proclivities, as we all must do with our temptations, then they cannot enter the Kingdom.  We are called to enter, but we must have the robe washed by Baptism and many tears.  Just because the Lord has opened the feast to us sinners, we ought not hop the fence.  We must still enter the proper way... through the Door of Repentence.

Excusing homosexual conduct is akin to denying them their means of salvation: their struggle with this temptation will save them, yet we seek instead to deny this cross.  It is never a loving act to tell another person to give in to their temptations.  It is even worse when someone tries to misrepresent the Church's teachings on the matter.

This is what most of us are reacting to.


Testify!  Grin

What you said must be reiterated again and again. We all have our temptations and passions that we struggle with, but without repentance we can't enter the Kingdom. The Church sets the standard and not us, and it is for our own good. If I wanted to set the standard, I'd return to my parent's Methodist church.

I really appreciate this post, Father.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #201 on: January 23, 2011, 08:37:57 PM »

Quote
But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:
What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #202 on: January 23, 2011, 09:22:04 PM »

Testify!  Grin
What you said must be reiterated again and again. We all have our temptations and passions that we struggle with, but without repentance we can't enter the Kingdom.

I really appreciate this post, Father.
As do I.

What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.

Just an observation from various posts, but while you are emphatic that people shouldn't focus on or denounce homosexuality, you seem quite supportive of focusing on and denouncing the rich.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,302



« Reply #203 on: January 23, 2011, 09:27:15 PM »

Testify!  Grin
What you said must be reiterated again and again. We all have our temptations and passions that we struggle with, but without repentance we can't enter the Kingdom.

I really appreciate this post, Father.
As do I.

What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.

Just an observation from various posts, but while you are emphatic that people shouldn't focus on or denounce homosexuality, you seem quite supportive of focusing on and denouncing the rich.
He seems to have quite a disdain for converts, too. So be careful when you convert, you might upset him.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #204 on: January 23, 2011, 09:28:45 PM »

Testify!  Grin
What you said must be reiterated again and again. We all have our temptations and passions that we struggle with, but without repentance we can't enter the Kingdom.

I really appreciate this post, Father.
As do I.

What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.

Just an observation from various posts, but while you are emphatic that people shouldn't focus on or denounce homosexuality, you seem quite supportive of focusing on and denouncing the rich.
He seems to have quite a disdain for converts, too. So be careful when you convert, you might upset him.

In Christ,
Andrew
There are converts and converts, avva, or no?
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #205 on: January 23, 2011, 09:36:00 PM »

He seems to have quite a disdain for converts, too. So be careful when you convert, you might upset him.
 

 Grin My keen skills of observation have uncovered this as well. 
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #206 on: January 23, 2011, 11:01:57 PM »

Quote
But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:
What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.
But this thread isn't about the rich.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,545


« Reply #207 on: January 23, 2011, 11:04:28 PM »

Quote
But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:
What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.
But this thread isn't about the rich.

But wouldn't it be a welcome and rare change for a discussion to actually go away from the homosexuality topic?  Wink
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #208 on: January 23, 2011, 11:11:05 PM »

Quote
But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:
What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.
But this thread isn't about the rich.

But wouldn't it be a welcome and rare change for a discussion to actually go away from the homosexuality topic?  Wink
That would be nice, Wink but my job is to keep this thread ON topic. police
Logged
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #209 on: January 24, 2011, 01:07:48 AM »

Quote
But listen to the 4th century neocon bishop John, as to the nature of this sin:
What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms. He has no nice words to say to the rich either, yet I don't see the neocon Orthodox running to quote him on that. That would be quite embarrassing for their political and economic commitments.

I didn't say it was the only sin Chrysostom ever spoke strongly against. I am well aware of his criticisms of the rich; but it seems to me you want us to replace one societal scapegoat with another. And your assumption that every Orthodox who accepts the univocal teaching of scripture and tradition on this point is a neocon is ludicrous. To be clear, I do not share the political and economic commitments of the "neocons".

As for Chrysostom, actually read the text.

You ask, "What makes you think this is the only sin St. John is speaking against in such strong terms?"

Quote
For there is not, there surely is not, a more grievous evil than this insolent dealing.

I'm bringing this up simply in order to show that the understanding of homosexual activity as a grave sin is native to Orthodoxy, and not an American, Evangelical, or neocon import as some are trying to argue.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 01:13:45 AM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,448


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #210 on: January 24, 2011, 02:24:52 AM »



I don't think the issue has ever been hatred of homosexuals, but rather the twisting of God's instructions to us.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! (Isaiah 5:20-23)


When someone calls homosexual conduct a good, or, as one poster would have it, a 'not-evil,' then we are abandoning what the Scriptures and centuries of the Church's experience has taught us.  We are foresaking the gift of sanity for the realm of self-indulgence of the fallen intellect and flesh.

I have no doubt that there are many homosexuals who are worthy of the Kingdom, and far more of them deserve a place at the Lord's Table than I do.  But, the price of admission is repentance.  If they do not repent of their proclivities, as we all must do with our temptations, then they cannot enter the Kingdom.  We are called to enter, but we must have the robe washed by Baptism and many tears.  Just because the Lord has opened the feast to us sinners, we ought not hop the fence.  We must still enter the proper way... through the Door of Repentence.

Excusing homosexual conduct is akin to denying them their means of salvation: their struggle with this temptation will save them, yet we seek instead to deny this cross.  It is never a loving act to tell another person to give in to their temptations.  It is even worse when someone tries to misrepresent the Church's teachings on the matter.

This is what most of us are reacting to.


Father Bless!

Well spoken.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
David 2007
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 197



« Reply #211 on: January 24, 2011, 11:42:55 AM »

I can envision when Christians comes face to face with God For Judgment and the topic of homosexuals come up.

The Christian person may grab his bible and start pointing out this or that verse and make rationalizations.

Jesus will grab the bible out of their hands and toss it aside.

He will say: "I want to know on thing: Did you show Mercy to my homosexual Children?".
Quote
Hosea 6:6 (New International Version, ©2010)

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
   and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #212 on: January 24, 2011, 11:53:39 AM »

Has any Bishop spoken out against this?
Most Bishops avoid comment on those things were are clearly outside of Orthodoxy.
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #213 on: January 24, 2011, 11:56:39 AM »

He will say: "I want to know one thing: Did you show Mercy to my homosexual Children..."
"...and call them to repent of their sins?"

And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #214 on: January 24, 2011, 12:06:57 PM »

I know I said "Uncle" but just one more comment - I think it's easy to tell other people what their cross is and how they should be carrying it, but we might do better to pay more attention to hauling our own. Smiley
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #215 on: January 24, 2011, 12:28:00 PM »

I agree, but then this is a forum of opinion.  People come here specifically to pay attention to other people's crosses, and perhaps show off the one's they have.  Wink

I've said this elsewhere, but I'll say it again: this is a verbal boxing ring.  We punch each other according to the rules.  Those who can't take being whacked (according to the rules set by the referees/moderators) should take up a different activity.  In many cultures, arguing and having contrary opinions is acceptable.

Let's also be very honest: no one here wants anything bad for homosexuals or anyone else suffering from powerful temptations.  We desire their salvation in light of their heavy burden.

To tell a homosexual that he bears no cross and should abandon himself to his inclinations, given what Christians believe (OO and EO are alike on this matter as far as I am concerned), is the height of hatred.  It would be the encouragement of condemnation simply to avoid looking contentious or the dreaded 'judgmental.'

We all discern, and we should discern.  We do not pass sentence, because that is God's alone to do.  But, we can look to what we have been taught by God about how He will judge to warn those we care for.



I know I said "Uncle" but just one more comment - I think it's easy to tell other people what their cross is and how they should be carrying it, but we might do better to pay more attention to hauling our own. Smiley
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,966


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #216 on: January 24, 2011, 02:10:33 PM »

Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination?
Whose preaching are you talking about? I have been Christian Orthodox for all of my 44 years and the only preaching on this subject I have ever seen has been on this forum.

This is true of my 57 years as well in the US. I have heard sermons about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, but never in terms of condemnation of any person solely on account of his or her status (for lack of a better word.)
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,981


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2011, 01:11:58 AM »

I can envision when Christians comes face to face with God For Judgment and the topic of homosexuals come up.

The Christian person may grab his bible and start pointing out this or that verse and make rationalizations.

Jesus will grab the bible out of their hands and toss it aside.

He will say: "I want to know on thing: Did you show Mercy to my homosexual Children?".
Quote
Hosea 6:6 (New International Version, ©2010)

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
   and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

So far I've seen most of the posters here try their best not to be condemnatory against persons of said predisposition, but not condoning the actions of homosexuality itself.  You are talking about a certain group of "God hates f***" which no Christian of a loving heart would ever partake of, and I find no one here to do such a thing.

I'd be quite worried if God would judge me one day asking me about my children, telling me, "where was your negligent soul when you let your child lose his/her virginity at this party" or "where he/she drank and drove" etc.  "How much did you make sure he/she prayed, read the bible, went to Church with you?".  I would tremble the day I have children to be responsible for them.  A parent I can only imagine has a tough time balancing and using both loving reward and loving discipline for their children.  Seems like such a parent would also receive a stricter punishment.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:13:36 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2011, 01:15:23 AM »

God doesn't hate figs.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,981


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #219 on: January 25, 2011, 01:21:20 AM »

God doesn't hate figs.

My car hates fogs.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,448


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #220 on: January 25, 2011, 03:55:12 AM »

God doesn't hate figs.

My car hates fogs.

I dislike vogs
but I enjoy frogs.

Do threads ever get closed here because they ran out of subject matter or were hopelessly derailed?

Honestly, I feel that the word homophobe is being tossed and bantered around here a bit too loosely.
And people are making terrible judgment calls when we are NOT to judge.
I have not seen one homophobe here who hates those who struggle. Heck, we all struggle.

We ALL are sinners. How many times do I need to repeat that? Are my posts even being read?
We all have to sink or swim.
If we struggle to continue leading lives of repentance, we will be saved.
If we do not struggle, then we have given up hope.

Dante's Inferno comes to mind -- abandon all hope.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 04:02:08 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
brightmorningstar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 16


« Reply #221 on: January 25, 2011, 06:36:25 AM »

David2007,
Quote
I can envision when Christians comes face to face with God For Judgment and the topic of homosexuals come up.

The Christian person may grab his bible and start pointing out this or that verse and make rationalizations.

Jesus will grab the bible out of their hands and toss it aside.
Why would He do that if it is inspired by Him and contains His teaching about what disciples are to follow?

Quote
He will say: "I want to know on thing: Did you show Mercy to my homosexual Children?".
Or He might say well done good and faithful servant for showing mercy and speaking the truth in love to those who were in darkness and homosexual bondage.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 06:36:55 AM by brightmorningstar » Logged
brightmorningstar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 16


« Reply #222 on: January 25, 2011, 06:40:05 AM »

Good post from Minasoliman, the truth being spoken is simply that same sex relationships are error, the message is that through Christ there is a better way.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #223 on: January 25, 2011, 11:28:00 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18244.0.html

Why is everyone around here always so concerned with what gay Christians are up to?   Huh

Perhaps heterosexual Christians should be busily showing gratitude to God that they weren't born (that's right... BORN) gay, and therefore don't have to deal with constant hatred, derision, homophobia, and discrimination.

AMEN!!!!  I often wonder how anyone can call themselves 'Christian' while at the same time judging/hating gays or any other group/individual.  I doubt if Jesus would show such derision and discrimination and aren't Christians supposed to be followers of Christ/Christ's teachings?



Fixed quote tags... -PtA
To those of you who have quoted this post (Gebre, Maria, and Bogdan), I have to ask this question: What do you read in this post that justifies the responses you have all given? Has she ever equated our preaching against homosexual relations with hatred and discrimination? I share your desire to call homosexual relations what the Church has always called them: a destructive sin just like all destructive sins. Like you, I don't shy away from speaking the truth on this matter. However, I see nothing in the substance of chatelaa's post to indicate that she disagrees with us. She has chosen to focus on a different aspect of the discussion of homosexuality: the problem of how we are to relate to homosexual persons. And she is right.

Yes, we are to call homosexual relations what they are: sinful. Anything less would be unlovingly dishonest. But we are also to not judge gays and lesbians, nor are we to condemn them. Outside of the Church, where I can see no granting of any blessing or position to any brazenly unrepentant participant in any sinful behavior, I do recognize how gays have been discriminated against and how they have been the object of our sinful prejudice and hatred. This is what I see chatelaa pointing out. I don't think her words were even meant for you and the position you (and I) advocate.

For myself, I reject the idea that I am "judging/hating gays", which I felt was the implication of her post. I did not judge anyone, because I would never say someone is condemned. But if I have misunderstood chatelaa's point (I do that sometimes) and gone off on her in some way, I apologize.

As I've said, my views on this subject from an Orthodox perspective comes largely from people who have been dealing with their same-sex attractions within the context of the Church for longer than I've been Orthodox. One them in particular has great disgust for gays who cry "discrimination" all the time, and it's his belief that sometimes the only way to get people to stop sinning is to make them uncomfortable in their sin by calling them on it. If Orthodox people who I know are fighting against their flesh don't consider it offensive or discriminatory when I say what I've said—and indeed say it themselves—then I don't know why heterosexuals would.

Avoiding offense at all costs is not love, it is niceness and politeness. We are not necessarily called to be nice and polite, we are called to love, and sometimes that means having high expectations that will cause offense to some people. Now, we don't go out of our way to berate people like the WBC crew, but if it comes up in our lives we should not run away and hide behind a façade of "niceness".
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:31:55 AM by bogdan » Logged
brightmorningstar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 16


« Reply #224 on: January 25, 2011, 11:53:09 AM »

For the Christian, God is love, not love is god. people have all kinds of ideas about what constitutes love, some of which others see as quite the opposite of love. "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4. 
What is sin is not up to us, its up to God.

Bogdan has put this brilliantly..
Quote
We are not necessarily called to be nice and polite, we are called to love, and sometimes that means having high expectations that will cause offense to some people
Logged
Tags: axios homosexuality anaxios! 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 72 queries.