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Author Topic: Axios Gay and Lesbian Orthodox Group?  (Read 13051 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« Reply #135 on: January 20, 2011, 05:17:53 PM »

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is already focussing on justifying the sin.
Based on the tradition of the Church how do you justify usury/charging interest for money-lending?
I'm sure they taught you a way to get around it, or, if you are a Protestant, it's not even an issue.
Why do you keep trying to derail this thread?
I do not actually. The issue of usury is a case in point of something, long time ago thought as unjustifiable within the Christian moral system, has become justifiable.
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« Reply #136 on: January 20, 2011, 05:36:59 PM »

Just heard this joke and thought it might be relevant to this thread.

Western Ukraine. (For those who are not familiar, the Western part of Ukraine has been traditionally much more "nationalist" and anti-Russian than her Eastern part.) A village. An older man is sitting on his porch, enjoying his rest after a long day in the fields.

The old man's son, a young, handsome lad, is approaching his father. He takes off his hat, steps on the porch, respectfully bows to his father, puts his hand on his heart and says:

"Dad! I have come to ask your parental blessing. I have finally decided to marry."

The father looks at his son with happiness, love, and hope, and says:

"Very well, my son! But tell me, whom will you marry?"

The lad answers: "I have decided to marry Andrew, and he accepted my proposal."

"WHAT?Huh??" - screams the father, now angry, with his face red. "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME??? ANDREW IS RUSSIAN!!!!!!!!!"
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« Reply #137 on: January 20, 2011, 05:56:54 PM »

Just heard this joke and thought it might be relevant to this thread.

Western Ukraine. (For those who are not familiar, the Western part of Ukraine has been traditionally much more "nationalist" and anti-Russian than her Eastern part.) A village. An older man is sitting on his porch, enjoying his rest after a long day in the fields.

The old man's son, a young, handsome lad, is approaching his father. He takes off his hat, steps on the porch, respectfully bows to his father, puts his hand on his heart and says:

"Dad! I have come to ask your parental blessing. I have finally decided to marry."

The father looks at his son with happiness, love, and hope, and says:

"Very well, my son! But tell me, whom will you marry?"

The lad answers: "I have decided to marry Andrew, and he accepted my proposal."

"WHAT?Huh??" - screams the father, now angry, with his face red. "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME??? ANDREW IS RUSSIAN!!!!!!!!!"

 laugh laugh laugh

That was a great joke.  Smiley
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« Reply #138 on: January 20, 2011, 05:59:31 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.
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« Reply #139 on: January 20, 2011, 06:49:59 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Deusveritastest,

I see you as my brother in Christ, but I condemn such an idea in the strongest possible terms. What you say is diametrically opposed to the Sacred Scriptures and the Sacred Teachings and Traditions of the Church.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam
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« Reply #140 on: January 20, 2011, 07:04:37 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Deusveritastest,

I see you as my brother in Christ, but I condemn such an idea in the strongest possible terms. What you say is diametrically opposed to the Sacred Scriptures and the Sacred Teachings and Traditions of the Church.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

Spiritual health is one thing and debatable, and that was not what I was intending to speak of. As to physical health, however, what I say is scientifically provable.
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« Reply #141 on: January 20, 2011, 07:22:39 PM »

and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.

No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Deusveritastest,

I see you as my brother in Christ, but I condemn such an idea in the strongest possible terms. What you say is diametrically opposed to the Sacred Scriptures and the Sacred Teachings and Traditions of the Church.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

Spiritual health is one thing and debatable, and that was not what I was intending to speak of. As to physical health, however, what I say is scientifically provable.

Completely agree, as a teacher of biological disciplines (including human A&P). Look at congressamn Barney Frank - he is 70, and what robust health. Nothing in him looks "anatomically dysfunctional" to me. Jean Marais died at 85 from a swift heart attack - also nothing "anatomically dysfunctional" before that. His lover Jacques Cocteau died at 74, reportedly because he choked on his food or wine when he learned about tthe death of Edit Piaf. Again nothing "anatomically dysfunctional." Millions of gay couples live in a very "anatomically functional" way.
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« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2011, 07:51:19 PM »

Quote
No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Yeah, like fecal incontinence. Nice.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2011, 07:55:17 PM »

Quote
No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Yeah, like fecal incontinence. Nice.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

What sort of pseudo-scientific propaganda are you reading?

Fecal incontinence occurs as a consequence of muscle or nerve damage, which only happens when anal sex is had in a rough or violent way. When it is done gently and carefully there really is very little risk. I have never heard of any of my gay friends suffering from fecal incontinence as a consequence of anal sex, nor have I ever heard from medical practitioners of it being a consequence of anything other than rough sex.
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« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2011, 09:02:09 PM »

Ugh.

Do people have to be so graphic and push sexual immorality?

Back on topic: Has this gay website mentioned in the OP gone inactive?
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« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2011, 09:17:35 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
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« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2011, 09:19:09 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. In the context of Orthodoxy, it is a red herring and a fallacious argument.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.


Amen!


Selam
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« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2011, 09:24:17 PM »

Do people have to be so graphic and push sexual immorality?

I don't recognize homosexual behavior as inherently immoral, but unfortunately the mods have essentially placed a ban on my ability to discuss that opinion.
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« Reply #148 on: January 20, 2011, 09:26:25 PM »

This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

Given that I wasn't even the once who started that train of thought, no it's not. The discussion started with someone else claiming that homosexual sex is anatomically dysfunctional, and I decided to engage/challenge that claim.
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« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2011, 09:27:35 PM »

I don't recognize homosexual behavior as inherently immoral

Does it matter? We are not our own moral compasses.
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« Reply #150 on: January 20, 2011, 09:31:03 PM »

I don't recognize homosexual behavior as inherently immoral

Does it matter? We are not our own moral compasses.

And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.
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« Reply #151 on: January 20, 2011, 09:38:30 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.

Amen.
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« Reply #152 on: January 20, 2011, 09:42:52 PM »

I laughed out loud at this one.

My GI was adamant that if constipation can cause damage to tissue, so can anything else of similar consistency! 

Honestly, that was one of the worst apologetics for unnatural intimacy that I have seen for a while.  Just common sense would tell you that if one can have bowel damage simply from a poor diet, how much more will unnatural activities cause problems.

This is not to say that I am strictly against gay males, but also straight males who may try such activites with their wives.  It is not healthy for anyone, not to mention the problems one encounters with urinary tract infections.  However, I have not consulted with a urologist on this (or any other matter that I recall), so there's my disclaimer.


Quote
No it's not. As for two men, in a strictly monogamous, STD-free context where it is done physically carefully and gently, anal intercourse actually contributes quite a bit to the health of both partners.

Yeah, like fecal incontinence. Nice.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

What sort of pseudo-scientific propaganda are you reading?

Fecal incontinence occurs as a consequence of muscle or nerve damage, which only happens when anal sex is had in a rough or violent way. When it is done gently and carefully there really is very little risk. I have never heard of any of my gay friends suffering from fecal incontinence as a consequence of anal sex, nor have I ever heard from medical practitioners of it being a consequence of anything other than rough sex.
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« Reply #153 on: January 20, 2011, 10:14:05 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.

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« Reply #154 on: January 20, 2011, 11:24:10 PM »

I should have said more clearly above "the MISUSE of the genital organs".
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« Reply #155 on: January 20, 2011, 11:32:28 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.



Ahhh, the tired old tactic of labeling anyone who adheres to the moral Teachings of the Church a "fundamentalist." Nice try.


Selam
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« Reply #156 on: January 20, 2011, 11:39:49 PM »

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us sinners and grant us health and salvation.
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« Reply #157 on: January 21, 2011, 12:06:04 AM »

Yes, I agree, Gebre.

As threads here develop, I believe there is a peculiar kind of manifestation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum that posters use on each other:

Reductio ad Occidentum: a restatement of Godwin's Law - As an Orthodox online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Protestants or Roman Catholics approaches.

I am as guilty of it as anyone else.  And, sadly, I do find myself mocking Protestants.  Just yesterday, I referred to an ECUSA priest of being a 'male priestess of the Anglicans.'  Instead of using them as fodder for my insults, I should spend more time praying for them.


1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.



Ahhh, the tired old tactic of labeling anyone who adheres to the moral Teachings of the Church a "fundamentalist." Nice try.


Selam
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« Reply #158 on: January 21, 2011, 12:08:20 AM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.


I didn't think that Bogdan was saying that multiple marriages (which is kind of like polygamy for people who can't multitask) and usury are ok.  I read him as saying that these are evil, and that just because they are allowed doesn't mean it is something we should aspire to.  Being a Christian is hard.  Everything in our fallen world is pushing against us as well as the armies of the demons.

I sincerely pray that all who struggle against this demon find solace in out Lord and Master.
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« Reply #159 on: January 21, 2011, 12:15:15 AM »

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us sinners and grant us health and salvation.

True.  Homosexuality is a moral issue that is a result of our sin nature.  People try to turn this sin into a 'right'. Maybe we should be praying for these people and looking for ways to treat them instead of normalizing this behavior.
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« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2011, 12:46:40 AM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.


I didn't think that Bogdan was saying that multiple marriages (which is kind of like polygamy for people who can't multitask) and usury are ok.  I read him as saying that these are evil, and that just because they are allowed doesn't mean it is something we should aspire to.  Being a Christian is hard.  Everything in our fallen world is pushing against us as well as the armies of the demons.

I sincerely pray that all who struggle against this demon find solace in out Lord and Master.
I am not saying that homosexual sex is ok either;the difference is that this is not a sin that scandalizing me particularly. But I'm in a minority here, obviously. Economic exploitation and iniquities scandalize me way more, yet if you profit from them, in different degrees-and donate some to church you'll be considered some paragon of an Orthodox Christian more often than not.
But then we go chasing the red-herring of homosexuality.
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« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2011, 12:51:41 AM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.


Do you even know how fundagelical Baptists think? Huh
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« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2011, 06:48:10 AM »

Last I checked (~a year ago), their Web site had been completely inactive for 2 years.

The DC chapter is active: http://axiosdconline.tripod.com/
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« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2011, 02:54:41 PM »

And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

So you believe that the Oriental Orthodox Church (the only true Church in your eyes) teached that homosexual activity is moral under certain circumstances? I'd like to hear your arguments on this matter. Couldn't you start a topic in the Private Forum or another place deemed suitable by the mods?
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« Reply #164 on: January 21, 2011, 04:51:39 PM »

And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

So you believe that the Oriental Orthodox Church (the only true Church in your eyes) teached that homosexual activity is moral under certain circumstances? I'd like to hear your arguments on this matter. Couldn't you start a topic in the Private Forum or another place deemed suitable by the mods?

No, that is not quite my opinion, and no, since the moratorium and its policy after its lifting, I don't believe that I am allowed to discuss it anywhere on this site.
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« Reply #165 on: January 21, 2011, 05:14:49 PM »

What you can do, which would be far more interesting than sharing your opinions on the topic and thus violating the ban, is merely point to the specific OO sources that condone, excuse or even promulgate homosexual behavior.  Don't discuss, just cite.

Knowing what I know about our OO friends, I don't think you can.  However, I'm always open to a surprise or two!  Wink


And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

So you believe that the Oriental Orthodox Church (the only true Church in your eyes) teached that homosexual activity is moral under certain circumstances? I'd like to hear your arguments on this matter. Couldn't you start a topic in the Private Forum or another place deemed suitable by the mods?

No, that is not quite my opinion, and no, since the moratorium and its policy after its lifting, I don't believe that I am allowed to discuss it anywhere on this site.
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« Reply #166 on: January 21, 2011, 05:37:33 PM »

And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

So you believe that the Oriental Orthodox Church (the only true Church in your eyes) teached that homosexual activity is moral under certain circumstances? I'd like to hear your arguments on this matter. Couldn't you start a topic in the Private Forum or another place deemed suitable by the mods?

No, that is not quite my opinion, and no, since the moratorium and its policy after its lifting, I don't believe that I am allowed to discuss it anywhere on this site.
Fr. Chris approved lubeltri's post of invitation, so I believe you have permission from above to address his question on the Private Forum.
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« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2011, 05:51:29 PM »

^
Don't get sucked into this deusveritasest. Its a trap!

Your opinion is:
And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

And the official opinion of Admins of OCnet that:
Quote

Your current position is therefore correct. Do not enter into discussion on this topic here- not even in the Private Forum..
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:02:52 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: January 21, 2011, 05:58:19 PM »

I miss the moritorium.
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« Reply #169 on: January 21, 2011, 05:59:56 PM »

I miss the moritorium.
I think its a good thing too. And more honest.
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« Reply #170 on: January 21, 2011, 06:05:59 PM »

What you can do, which would be far more interesting than sharing your opinions on the topic and thus violating the ban, is merely point to the specific OO sources that condone, excuse or even promulgate homosexual behavior.  Don't discuss, just cite.

Knowing what I know about our OO friends, I don't think you can.  However, I'm always open to a surprise or two!  Wink


And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

So you believe that the Oriental Orthodox Church (the only true Church in your eyes) teached that homosexual activity is moral under certain circumstances? I'd like to hear your arguments on this matter. Couldn't you start a topic in the Private Forum or another place deemed suitable by the mods?

No, that is not quite my opinion, and no, since the moratorium and its policy after its lifting, I don't believe that I am allowed to discuss it anywhere on this site.

Asking me to do that indicates that you don't quite yet understand what my opinion is. Try reading my original statement again:

And I also don't recognize the claim that the Church (as a whole) teaches that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. But that opinion also has been banned from discussion.

To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allows for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:16:35 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

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« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2011, 06:13:43 PM »

1. Regardless of whatever health benefits there may be, homosexual sex has never been acceptable to the Church in any shape, matter, or form. This is the impossible hurdle, and even if homosexual sex was the fountain of youth and immortality, it would not matter. This appeal to healthfulness is a red herring.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if bishops have overstepped the boundaries when it comes to divorce and interest, that does not mean we are now open for moral anarchy. You can't justify your sin by pointing at others' sins.

Again: if a homosexual person doesn't want to be Orthodox, then they don't have to be. (Indeed, they could not be, as unrepentant sin excommunicates a person from the Church.) They can go find a Metropolitan Community Church, or an Episcopal church if they like the pomp and circumstance, and hold their partner's hand during the services. But they should not claim to be Orthodox whilst flying in the face of the Church's consistent teachings. They should be honest and become Protestants, since they are protesting the Church instead of submitting to her.
How  convenient  that the sins more likely to be committed by a majority can always be somehow justified or explained away or re-defined or merely tolerated. For people like you, I bet, there is no sin,and by that I mean something that would really get you kicked out of the church for doing it, except those that involve the genital organs.
Man,you seem to still have the fixations common to evangelical/Baptist/fundamentalists.

Thanks for playing, but again, flawed logic:

X is sinful.

X is, nevertheless, accepted.

Y is sinful.

Therefore: Y should be accepted.

The topic at hand is homosexual sex, so that is what I'm addressing. If you'd like to talk about charging interest or divorce, by all means let's start a new thread about that. But for the topic at hand, the teaching of the Orthodox Church is crystal clear. My own fixations, whatever they may be, have no bearing on the Church's teachings.

And you seem to assume that homosexuals would automatically be in favor of pro-homosexuality groups such as Axios. I know several who are vehemently opposed to such things. (And these aren't your timid, repressed types.) I'm sorry, but the formula of "people just don't understand how hard it is" doesn't work.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:23:20 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #172 on: January 21, 2011, 06:21:46 PM »

To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allow for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.

LOL. So if two gay men asked a priest to marry them, what would happen? They would be denied. Or if the priest didn't know, the bishop would deny them. Therefore the Church has an official teaching on the matter. (And the Church does officially teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, unquestionably.)

Just because there is no canon stating so, does not mean there is no official teaching. It means the official teaching is so consistent, it has never even required clarification or definition.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:24:44 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: January 21, 2011, 06:33:41 PM »

To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allow for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.

LOL. So if two gay men asked a priest to marry them, what would happen? They would be denied. Or if the priest didn't know, the bishop would deny them. Therefore the Church has an official teaching on the matter. (And the Church does officially teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, unquestionably.)

Just because there is no canon stating so, does not mean there is no official teaching. It means the official teaching is so consistent, it has never even required clarification or definition.

As much as I would like to respond to you, it's not really safe for me to do so.
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« Reply #174 on: January 21, 2011, 07:29:35 PM »

ozgeorge,

Lubeltri has been on Post Moderation for the last few days. The only way, then, that his post could have appeared on this thread is if a moderator approved it. In this case, Fr. Chris approved the post, which should tell you what his official administrative interpretation of forum policy is and how lubeltri's post complies with it. That is what I tried to represent in my green-text reply.

You are no longer on the moderator team, so you no longer have the authority to give an official interpretation of forum policy on this thread. Therefore, I ask that you please not contradict me publicly when I do give such an interpretation. If you think a moderator may be misrepresenting the rules of this forum, you need to take it up with the moderator team via private message or the "Report to Moderator" function. Please don't contradict a moderator in public like this again.

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« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2011, 07:32:23 PM »

ozgeorge,

Lubeltri has been on Post Moderation for the last few days. The only way, then, that his post could have appeared on this thread is if a moderator approved it. In this case, Fr. Chris approved the post, which should tell you what his official administrative interpretation of forum policy is and how lubeltri's post complies with it. That is what I tried to represent in my green-text reply.

You are no longer on the moderator team, so you no longer have the authority to give an official interpretation of forum policy on this thread. Therefore, I ask that you please not contradict me publicly when I do give such an interpretation. If you think a moderator may be misrepresenting the rules of this forum, you need to take it up with the moderator team via private message or the "Report to Moderator" function. Please don't contradict a moderator in public like this again.

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What makes you think I was referring to you?
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« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2011, 07:41:55 PM »

ozgeorge,

Lubeltri has been on Post Moderation for the last few days. The only way, then, that his post could have appeared on this thread is if a moderator approved it. In this case, Fr. Chris approved the post, which should tell you what his official administrative interpretation of forum policy is and how lubeltri's post complies with it. That is what I tried to represent in my green-text reply.

You are no longer on the moderator team, so you no longer have the authority to give an official interpretation of forum policy on this thread. Therefore, I ask that you please not contradict me publicly when I do give such an interpretation. If you think a moderator may be misrepresenting the rules of this forum, you need to take it up with the moderator team via private message or the "Report to Moderator" function. Please don't contradict a moderator in public like this again.

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What makes you think I was referring to you?
The carat sign (^) in your post... Usually that's code for "refer to the immediately previous post". If you had wanted to make it clear you weren't referring to me, you would have done well to quote the post you wanted to reference. Now, whether I have acted rightly or prematurely, I am no longer going to broach any more discussion of this matter here. Please redirect your questions to either Fr. George or myself in private message.
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« Reply #177 on: January 21, 2011, 09:01:16 PM »

Like I said, just cite for me one other OO theologian who agrees with you.  Just one.  Please.

Otherwise, what it means is that, throughout the entire history of tradition of the OO Church, not once has anyone else of consequence come to this same conclusion.  This means you are either the most brilliant of their theologians, or you have erred.  I'm going to go with the latter, particularly now that you are trying to avoid my request for a citation.

It would also be my argument that the Scriptural injunctions against homosexual conduct constitute offical teachings of the OO Church, unless you believe it is a policy of the OO Church that Scripture must be confirmed through an additional ruling of some sort.  If so, I would also ask that you cite your source for that as well.

I love my OO friends and feel you are doing them a disservice by misrepresenting their Church.  If their are other OO posters who feel I am out of line by pursuing this line of questioning, I would be happy to hear from them.


To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allows for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.
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« Reply #178 on: January 21, 2011, 09:47:14 PM »

Like I said, just cite for me one other OO theologian who agrees with you.  Just one.  Please.....
....I love my OO friends and feel you are doing them a disservice by misrepresenting their Church.  If their are other OO posters who feel I am out of line by pursuing this line of questioning, I would be happy to hear from them.[/size]
Father, I'm EO so perhaps I have no right to speak (it seems there are very rigid mores about what can and can't be spoken on this thread), however I don't think that this is fair given deusveritasest's concerns.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:00:06 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #179 on: January 21, 2011, 10:59:54 PM »

To assume that that means that I think the Church officially teaches that homosexual behavior is in some situations morally acceptable is not a properly logical deduction. All I said was that I think that the Church as a whole does not officially teach that homosexual behavior is inherently immoral. That logically also allow for the opinion that the Church as a whole does not have an official teaching on the matter. In fact, it is that that is my opinion.

LOL. So if two gay men asked a priest to marry them, what would happen? They would be denied. Or if the priest didn't know, the bishop would deny them. Therefore the Church has an official teaching on the matter. (And the Church does officially teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, unquestionably.)

Just because there is no canon stating so, does not mean there is no official teaching. It means the official teaching is so consistent, it has never even required clarification or definition.

As much as I would like to respond to you, it's not really safe for me to do so.
deusveritasest, if you wish, you have the freedom to accept lubeltri's invitation and answer his question on one of the Private Boards.
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