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Author Topic: Axios Gay and Lesbian Orthodox Group?  (Read 13344 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2011, 01:27:04 AM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

I know a lot of heterosexual married women who suffer from post partum depression/psychosis or from bi-polar or OCD.
These mental illnesses seem epidemic now. Do gays who do not bear children get post-partum depression or psychosis?

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 01:30:51 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2011, 01:31:03 AM »

No, because a heterosexual who falls into those sexual sins may repent and continue having sex in marriage.  A homosexual does not have that outlet.
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« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2011, 01:33:43 AM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.
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Maria
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« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2011, 01:36:37 AM »

No, because a heterosexual who falls into those sexual sins may repent and continue having sex in marriage.  A homosexual does not have that outlet.

You forget, some heterosexuals never marry and struggle their entire lives to live a celibate lifestyle.
Or they get married and find themselves divorced and penanced for many years.
I know some guys/gals who never remarried (the Bishop would not approve a second marriage) and so they really struggled to remain pure.

Again, we all have our demons against whom we struggle: PALE GAS: Pride, Anger, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Avarice, and Sloth.
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« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2011, 01:38:43 AM »

In my experience ecclesiastical divorce is just a formality and is granted almost automatically after the civilian divorce happened.
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Maria
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« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2011, 01:40:13 AM »

Quote
Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

Remember, the Bishop must approve all marriages. Sometimes, a Bishop will not approve a second or a third marriage.
A history of unrepentance, mental illness, gambling, immaturity, and alcoholism are some of the reasons.

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« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2011, 01:44:42 AM »

I personally know quite a few people married with the Church's approval for the third time.
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« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2011, 01:47:33 AM »

I feel like a broken record (if you're old enough to know what that means Smiley ) but again: a heterosexual person can choose celibacy OR sex (within marriage) but a homosexual can ONLY choose celibacy, which is why I am saying it is more difficult for them within the Church.
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« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2011, 01:53:05 AM »

Speaking of canons no longer followed, there is one that says that "old people getting married anger God, so they should be punished by being forbidden to commune for three years and having to make 24 metanias every day" (Pravila of Govora, chap. 109).
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Maria
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« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2011, 01:54:06 AM »

I feel like a broken record (if you're old enough to know what that means Smiley ) but again: a heterosexual person can choose celibacy OR sex (within marriage) but a homosexual can ONLY choose celibacy, which is why I am saying it is more difficult for them within the Church.

Theistgal, I am probably old enough to be your grandma.

I do not know a single heterosexual who does not struggle against some particular sexual sin.

Striving toward theosis is not the easy road, and few take it.

However, look at Father Seraphim Rose, of blessed memory. He was a homosexual who overcame his demons and lived a blessed life.
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« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2011, 01:56:18 AM »

Speaking of canons no longer followed, there is one that says that "old people getting married anger God, so they should be punished by being forbidden to commune for three years and having to make 24 metanias every day" (Pravila of Govora, chap. 109).

Old men are not dead.

Have you ever worked in an old folks home?

Again, we all struggle. None of us are free from sin and we must struggle until the day we die.

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« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2011, 01:57:43 AM »

"Uncle."  Smiley
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« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2011, 02:02:28 AM »

the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic is that an alcoholic is always one.

Again with the absolutes here. To rule out any possible thearupetic way for an alcoholic to overcome their addiction is impossible. There is no hope for the alcoholic then, they might as well give up trying because they'll just relapse! I know two people in my life who were on the verge of death due to alcoholism but have sobered up and have remained sober for years. But I guess they are always going to be an alcoholic right?

I agree with you. I have a lot of problems with the AA philosophy. Mainly, I think it promotes a perpetual state of spiritual bondage. Whether you are drunk or sober, one has to identify themselves as an 'alcoholic.' Such a mindset seems to greatly hinder the road to theosis and deification. I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't yet to be convinced otherwise.

Selam
Whether it becomes spiritual bondage or spiritual freedom depends on the judgement you make when you see the term alcoholic. If you see it as a depraved behavior then yes you will be in bondage to it. If you see it as just a disease that is your responsibility to address, then you can be free to move beyond it.
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« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2011, 02:02:46 AM »

Speaking of canons no longer followed, there is one that says that "old people getting married anger God, so they should be punished by being forbidden to commune for three years and having to make 24 metanias every day" (Pravila of Govora, chap. 109).

Old men are not dead.

Have you ever worked in an old folks home?

Again, we all struggle. None of us are free from sin and we must struggle until the day we die.


The point is that marriage at an advanced age is not something, at least theoretically, encouraged by the tradition of the church either. Yet it is still done and none of the penance formerly prescribed for it is imposed on the couple.
And then, to pretend that there is no difference between how heterosexuals and homosexuals are treated doesn't fit with the facts.
Straight people have it easier in the Church.
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Maria
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« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2011, 02:10:54 AM »

Speaking of canons no longer followed, there is one that says that "old people getting married anger God, so they should be punished by being forbidden to commune for three years and having to make 24 metanias every day" (Pravila of Govora, chap. 109).

Old men are not dead.

Have you ever worked in an old folks home?

Again, we all struggle. None of us are free from sin and we must struggle until the day we die.


The point is that marriage at an advanced age is not something, at least theoretically, encouraged by the tradition of the church either. Yet it is still done and none of the penance formerly prescribed for it is imposed on the couple.
And then, to pretend that there is no difference between how heterosexuals and homosexuals are treated doesn't fit with the facts.
Straight people have it easier in the Church.

I know some priests who would disagree.

Some folks who are heterosexual (names will not be mentioned) really struggle with their passions and also with mental illness.
I know some of these folks who have been excommunicated because they are so disruptive and out of control.
They really need our prayers.
Even St. Paul talked about the incestuous man who was excommunicated.
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« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2011, 02:12:21 AM »

Quote
I think a lot of homosexuals have a sort of victim's complex that they need to just get over, because it's not like anyone else has a peachy-keen life either.

Good grief, man. Homosexuals have been ostracized, abused, rejected, beat, and murdered forever. They have a victim complex because they have been constantly victimized. Why, tell me, do four times as many homosexual teens attempt to kill themselves in the USA compared to heterosexual teens? Because of victimization.

http://gaylife.about.com/od/gayteens/a/gaysuicide.htm

That's terrible, and I'm aware. The Church should have its own Trevor Project for what it's worth. But you have not addressed any of my points. More appeals to emotion. We don't change the Church's inspired standards just because people don't like them. Why don't we just all live like animals, that way everyone can be happy and do whatever pleases them? Because we are being reshaped. God does indeed love us as we are, but he's not going to let us stay that way.

I have heard several homosexuals openly decry the victims' complexes of their fellow homosexuals. Especially in this country they suffer very little in comparison with true suffering elsewhere. And as Gebre has alluded to, Christianity is a martyrdom to Self. My Self and My Desires matter little in Christianity.

 There are several principles people should be aware of when they decide to follow Christ:

1. It will be difficult
2. It will not always be happy
3. It will require you to give up a lot--for some, this means sexual activity
4. It is possible
5. It is the only clear shot at eternal life you have, because this divine-human institution is all God has given us

Again: "anyone who does not pick up his cross and follow me, is not worthy of me."
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« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2011, 02:21:47 AM »

I feel like a broken record (if you're old enough to know what that means Smiley ) but again: a heterosexual person can choose celibacy OR sex (within marriage) but a homosexual can ONLY choose celibacy, which is why I am saying it is more difficult for them within the Church.

All unmarried people are called to celibacy.

Two men or two women cannot marry because there is no provision anywhere - in scripture, tradition, revelation, or anything else - to provide for such a concept. So to allow it would be a baseless perversion and debasement of a sacrament. It is impossible for the Church to conduct a homosexual marriage.

Thus, homosexuals are called to celibacy, period. There is no other option. As my homosexually-inclined Orthodox friend said to me once, "If they don't want to carry their cross, they are free to let it lie. But then, don't claim to be following Christ, if you won't carry the cross like he did."
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« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2011, 02:27:52 AM »

I feel like a broken record (if you're old enough to know what that means Smiley ) but again: a heterosexual person can choose celibacy OR sex (within marriage) but a homosexual can ONLY choose celibacy, which is why I am saying it is more difficult for them within the Church.

All unmarried people are called to celibacy.

Two men or two women cannot marry because there is no provision anywhere - in scripture, tradition, revelation, or anything else - to provide for such a concept. So to allow it would be a baseless perversion and debasement of a sacrament. It is impossible for the Church to conduct a homosexual marriage.

Thus, homosexuals are called to celibacy, period. There is no other option. As my homosexually-inclined Orthodox friend said to me once, "If they don't want to carry their cross, they are free to let it lie. But then, don't claim to be following Christ, if you won't carry the cross like he did."

Excellent response!
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« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2011, 02:36:01 AM »

Wow, this thread really got out of hand fast...  Shocked
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« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2011, 03:59:34 AM »

Good post by Selam on the first page. There is no place for the idea of 'gay christians' in the church becuase it is contrary to God's word. Sure people may have same sex attractions but then so what others of us have adulterous attractions and thats no better, but we are either Christians or not Christians, we either believe in, trust and seek to follow Christ or we dont.

Sadly so big is the deception now that some people simply wont put up with sound doctrine and merely end up accusing believers with the victimisation card.

Any gay and lesbian group is not a Christian group, of course I cannot pass judgement on the state of the members, but any group that nails its identity to the mast of a sinful desire, isnt a Christian group.

Yes the church should help those with same sex attraction in celebacy and those of us fall short in adultery, but the problem the church has is movements like this group whose raison d'etre is based on disbelief and who insist they are Christian.
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« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2011, 04:08:37 AM »

Jesus Christ's NT teaching affirms God's creation purpose for man and woman, a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. (Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5 etc)
There is no alternative, becuase of so much sexual immorality each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. (1 Cor 7)
There are no so called 'clobber' passages for believers, we know sin is sin but we are no longer clobbered because of Christ's forgiveness. In addition to God's clear creation purpose for man and woman, there are direct condemnations of same-sex sexual relations Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, Judges 19, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1 etc,

I would suggest the idea that same sex attraction is a harder cross to bear is a result of all the hype because sex is the new idol, as Malcolm Muggeridge said the orgasm has replaced the cross, as I see a TV program adveretised, 'The joys of teen sex'. Greed and lying for example are things we have all fall short in at times arent they?

This is not a debatable matter, there is no Biblical support for same sex relations, God detests it. In the UK, and I guess in the US as well we are heading for a society that will not tolerate any objection to homosexual practice, but it doesnt change the truth.
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« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2011, 05:41:46 AM »

Correction, when I said good post by Salem, I meant Gebre Menfes Kidus . 
Gebre Menfes Kidus tackles some of the spin head on. Good posts imo
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« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2011, 06:04:39 AM »

I would suggest the idea that same sex attraction is a harder cross to bear is a result of all the hype because sex is the new idol, as Malcolm Muggeridge said the orgasm has replaced the cross, as I see a TV program adveretised, 'The joys of teen sex'. Greed and lying for example are things we have all fall short in at times arent they?

I laughed out loud recently when I saw this commercial on cable tv. Love the guy's response at the end: "Sweet!"
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« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2011, 10:03:21 AM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

I hate to say it, but marriage in Eastern Orthodoxy is now not intrinsically associated with permanence (up to 3 spouses per person) or reproduction (at least, this connection has been weakened with the increasing official acceptance of contraception). So I can understand why some feel there is a double standard in the EO approach to homosexuals and that the EO argument against "gay marriage" is undermined by the divorce/remarriage/bigamy and contraception allowed to heterosexual couples.


You've been warned a number of times, both privately and publicly, to not troll the Faith Issues board with your Roman Catholic point of view. For engaging in this behavior yet again, and by doing so in a manner that blasts our Orthodox praxis, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 40 days. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

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« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2011, 11:25:06 AM »

Dear Lubeltri,

The Orthodox Church's stand is not different from St. Paul's admonishment to the Corinthians (i.e. 1 Cor 7:1-11):

Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am however, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.


Limiting marriage merely to a procreative arrangement with an unbreakable single instance simply is not what St. Paul was allowing for.  Of course, what you describe is the optimum, but he nonetheless allows a great deal more than that.  What the Church of Rome has done is, by what you are saying, trumped St. Paul.  Perhaps this is something the Church of Rome abrogates to itself, but the Orthodox Church does not.

I think it is dangerous to look for 'fairness' when dealing with this topic.  No, it does not appear 'fair' that some are homosexual.  Then again, it is also not 'fair' that some are born with birth defects and terrible genetic diseases that make homosexuality pale in comparison.  God has His reasons that we are given the struggles we have.  The question we might ask is whether the gift of life and the reality of eternal life after the struggle with homosexuality is worth the hardship of enduring it?




I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

I hate to say it, but marriage in Eastern Orthodoxy is now not intrinsically associated with permanence (up to 3 spouses per person) or reproduction (at least, this connection has been weakened with the increasing official acceptance of contraception). So I can understand why some feel there is a double standard in the EO approach to homosexuals and that the EO argument against "gay marriage" is undermined by the divorce/remarriage/bigamy and contraception allowed to heterosexual couples.

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« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »

FatherGiryus,

Nice font.

"But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife."

-

I agree with you about homosexuality, but I still think the EO churches are opening themselves up to criticism by caving in to the culture, re: contraception and 3 marriages. Rightly or wrongly, homosexuals will say that heterosexuals get all the oeconomia and homos get everything in black-or-white.

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« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2011, 12:36:48 PM »

Well, sorry about that.  I'm used to talking to Protestants with the name-dropping approach.   Cheesy

However, if we caved in to every criticism, we would have:

- no icons

- no veneration of the Virgin Mary

- no intercession of the saints

- no relics

- no Sacraments

- no Trinity

- no liturgy

- no sins at all

I think the Church does what she does and that's it.  We live according to what has been given to us, and live according to that rather than public opinion.  We will never be loved by those who desire only to justify their actions.  So, it is an impossible task to live without accusation when it comes to the Tradition: they will always find room to fault our morality until we have none.

The dangerous slope with this, on the other hand, is to constantly adjust our Tradition to avoid the opprobrium of the non-believers.  Eventually, you end up with the Church of England (particularly as it is manifested here in the US), which is not a path I think any of us, Orthodox or Roman, desire to take.

On responding to criticism regarding our stand with marriage and sexuality, my 'Give-a-darn' is broken and I'm not interested in repairing it.  I don't see the world as being very happy with its 'freedom.'  If you don't believe me, talk to a family law attorney or a rehab clinic director.

By the way, I don't think being 'black-and-white' with heterosexuals helps homosexuals one bit when it comes to the Divine injunctions against homosexual conduct.  Making everyone 'equally miserable' is no solution.


FatherGiryus,

Nice font.

"But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife."

-

I agree with you about homosexuality, but I still think the EO churches are opening themselves up to criticism by caving in to the culture, re: contraception and 3 marriages. Rightly or wrongly, homosexuals will say that heterosexuals get all the oeconomia and homos get everything in black-or-white.


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« Reply #117 on: January 19, 2011, 12:40:22 PM »

Lubeltri,
Let's not forget that your Church, as well, has come up with the mind-boggling idea of the "annulents", whereby we can just pretend a marriage never happened, even someting having the appearance thereof seems  lasted 20 years, even if kids resulted from it etc. Same Mary with another hat.
Now, I will grant this, that is probably much harder to obtain an annulment in the Latin Church than it is is to get an ecclesiastical divorce in our Church, which is quite easy.
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« Reply #118 on: January 19, 2011, 12:49:39 PM »

Quote
By the way, I don't think being 'black-and-white' with heterosexuals helps homosexuals one bit when it comes to the Divine injunctions against homosexual conduct.  Making everyone 'equally miserable' is no solution.
So, it is ok to disregard the tradition and the bible when this would make me, a straight man, less miserable, but we should apply the rules strictly when it comes to a minority that is quite expandable, at the end.
How self-serving of us.
This is one reason that no people that still use their God-given brains will be able to take such reasoning for anything else than what it is:barely masked prejudice and cynicism.

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« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2011, 01:06:34 PM »

Er, Augustin, what I was arguing for was keeping the Tradition.  Our friend was criticizing the Tradition for not being 'black-and-white' enough (i.e. departing from St. Paul's counsel [the Orthodox position] and confining marriage to a single instance for the purpose of procreation [the Roman position as he understands it]).

Sorry, I think you missed the point of my comment.


Quote
By the way, I don't think being 'black-and-white' with heterosexuals helps homosexuals one bit when it comes to the Divine injunctions against homosexual conduct.  Making everyone 'equally miserable' is no solution.
So, it is ok to disregard the tradition and the bible when this would make me, a straight man, less miserable, but we should apply the rules strictly when it comes to a minority that is quite expandable, at the end.
How self-serving of us.
This is one reason that no people that still use their God-given brains will be able to take such reasoning for anything else than what it is:barely masked prejudice and cynicism.


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« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2011, 02:01:19 PM »

Yes, the American Catholic Church is caving into the culture by its abuse of annulments. I think it is terrible and it undermines the US Church's credibility re: gay marriage. I agree with you there.

Now I'd best get off this thread before I get in further trouble.
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« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2011, 02:56:51 PM »

the problem is we are seeing groups form with their raison d'etre around this false teaching. Its happening within many denominations/churches/ministries. They are also now claiming they have the truth.
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« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2011, 03:50:43 PM »

homosexuals are held to a higher moral standard than heterosexuals.
No, they are not. They are not recognized as a separate class of person, which is what you would consider moral equivalency, but which is not logical.
Where did they teach you this sophistry, I mean, in what Protestant church?
None, I am not a Protestant nor do I receive doctrine from them.

I believe you misunderstood me. My point was that they are not held to a higher standard; rather, THE standard is harder for them.
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« Reply #123 on: January 19, 2011, 05:01:35 PM »

No, because a heterosexual who falls into those sexual sins may repent and continue having sex in marriage.  A homosexual does not have that outlet.

Nor does anyone who cannot find a spouse.  There are many people who are single and cannot be married for a myriad of reasons and their lives are often lonely and sad w/ all the sexual urges yet they do not have an outlet either.  No one would think of arguing for them to be able to pay for relations to fulfill this need, that would be a sin so it is w/ homosexuality...their desired outlet is also a sin and should not be allowed.
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« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2011, 05:03:01 PM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

Does anyone know where this allowance for up to 3 marriages came from?  Is it a canon?  How far back does this allowance go and is it mostly restricted to say America??
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« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2011, 05:59:38 PM »

It goes back to the first millenium. I only have references in Romanian, though.
And it is by no means restricted to America.
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« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2011, 06:01:15 PM »

No, because a heterosexual who falls into those sexual sins may repent and continue having sex in marriage.  A homosexual does not have that outlet.

Nor does anyone who cannot find a spouse.  There are many people who are single and cannot be married for a myriad of reasons and their lives are often lonely and sad w/ all the sexual urges yet they do not have an outlet either.  No one would think of arguing for them to be able to pay for relations to fulfill this need, that would be a sin so it is w/ homosexuality...their desired outlet is also a sin and should not be allowed.
A heterosexual still has some hope left (except for some cases of grave illness probably) that they will find someone one day; they are free to date etc.
In most cases, we do not talk about equal situations.

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« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2011, 06:06:10 PM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

Does anyone know where this allowance for up to 3 marriages came from?  Is it a canon?  How far back does this allowance go and is it mostly restricted to say America??

It's worth noting that a re-marriage can be denied by the bishop. It's not a guaranteed automatic thing. (Which makes the jurisdictional headaches a problem—what if Jurisdiction A refuses the marriage, but Jurisdiction B allows it? They hop jurisdictions.)

And, there is a separate service for a second or third marriage, and it is much more penitential in nature, with many of the joyful elements removed from the marriage ceremony.
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« Reply #128 on: January 19, 2011, 06:08:35 PM »

I can think of one way in which homosexuals are held to a higher or perhaps just more difficult standard.

A heterosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires has the option of at least trying to find a spouse.  

A homosexual who is unable to control his or her sexual desires does not have that option.  He or she must remain celibate or forfeit the grace of the sacraments.


A heterosexual who struggles but falls into fornication, pornography, or adultery must face the same consequences as a homosexual who stumbles.

Again, we are all sinners. We all must pick up our Cross and follow Him.

Not quite so.Hypothetically  I would be allowed to divorce my wife and re-marry up to three times. I do not see any equality here.
 And yeah, we are all sinnere, but some are more of a sinner than others.

Does anyone know where this allowance for up to 3 marriages came from?  Is it a canon?  How far back does this allowance go and is it mostly restricted to say America??

It's worth noting that a re-marriage can be denied by the bishop. It's not a guaranteed automatic thing. (Which makes the jurisdictional headaches a problem—what if Jurisdiction A refuses the marriage, but Jurisdiction B allows it? They hop jurisdictions.)

And, there is a separate service for a second or third marriage, and it is much more penitential in nature, with many of the joyful elements removed from the marriage ceremony.
Sometimes they even do the crowning; it is basically up to the priest; usually the richer people get quite a less penitential ceremony than poorer folks. Seen a few cases.
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« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2011, 07:08:03 PM »

it is basically up to the priest; usually the richer people get quite a less penitential ceremony than poorer folks. Seen a few cases.

It's a shame simony is alive and well. 

The only instances that I've heard of giving people a "normal" second marriage (less penitential or whatnot) is if one party hasn't been married before.
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« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2011, 01:55:50 AM »


It's a shame simony is alive and well. 

The only instances that I've heard of giving people a "normal" second marriage (less penitential or whatnot) is if one party hasn't been married before.

QFT

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« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2011, 07:29:35 AM »

Sorry but the idea that a someone with same sex attraction is penalised greater or has a greater cross to bear than someone who has opposite sex attraction is already focussing on justifying the sin. I am sure given the choice between celibacy and poverty most Christians in poverty would take celibacy.  I do not think resisting a temptation is easy whatever the temptation it is. Remember, this isn’t about friendship, I lived for many moths with another man before either of us got married, this is about sex, and same-sex sex is anatomically dysfunctional.
Furthermore, the alcoholic for example would see giving them alcohol as loving and refusing them alcohol as hurtful. 
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« Reply #132 on: January 20, 2011, 12:12:54 PM »

I must point out we married women.  my previous post doesnt make that clear. A relationship can be a friendship
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« Reply #133 on: January 20, 2011, 12:55:06 PM »

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is already focussing on justifying the sin.
Based on the tradition of the Church how do you justify usury/charging interest for money-lending?
I'm sure they taught you a way to get around it, or, if you are a Protestant, it's not even an issue.
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« Reply #134 on: January 20, 2011, 03:04:03 PM »

Quote
is already focussing on justifying the sin.
Based on the tradition of the Church how do you justify usury/charging interest for money-lending?
I'm sure they taught you a way to get around it, or, if you are a Protestant, it's not even an issue.
Why do you keep trying to derail this thread?
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