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Author Topic: So I don't believe in God...  (Read 12753 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: December 16, 2012, 09:00:28 PM »

Jackel, I notice you haven't said one word to address my request that you comment on the veracity of our accounts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you have any contemporary records of said accounts? Supposed 500 people that are as magically non-existent as the character Jesus.. Hey, I have 5,000 witnesses to the Pixie Lords when I was 20 years old.  Thing is veracity of accounts is not determined by unsupported claims. It's pretty interesting that Jesus was essentially non-existent until after the popularity of the Gospels grew.. And Gospels are not contemporary records, or direct evidence of the existence of Jesus, or the resurrection of any more than the book "Harry Potter" is of the existence of wizards with magical wands flying around on broom sticks..
Okay, I'll take your defiant dodge and dismiss move under advisement that you don't want to be taken seriously. You might actually engage us in a more decent argument if you weren't so damn haughty and condescending.
He doesn't want to engage you on an academic level, he wants to divert you to strawmen and false conclusions.
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« Reply #226 on: December 16, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »

Oh I am not done..



 So what further connection can we make with Christ and the Egyptian mythology / religion?

Well, we can note the following:
Quote
Horus, Osiris and Ra were routinely understood as good shepherd and saviour. Murdock notes the interesting comment from Egyptologist Gerald Massey that the Egyptian term for mummy is krst, so "Christ the anointed is none other than the Osiris-karast" (p313). (Incidentally this illustrates Stuart Mason's point about how the Christ myth derives from both Osiris and Horus). Murdock checked Massey's assertion in Dictionaries of Hieroglyphics, since it is taboo for Christian :theologians, and found that "Massey is correct in his contentions and did not :innovate his transliteration and definition of the Egyptian words karas ... krst :etc..." (p316)

Further, we find that the Egyptian "krst" links to the Christian idea of embalming :or anointing with oil as discussed above, as in the Christian motif of the 23rd Psalm, which is redolent :with Egyptian resonance, as are the gifts of the three kings to the baby Jesus.
Quote
Murdock points out that the title 'Christos' is used 40 times in the Greek Old :Testament, applied to David, Solomon and Samuel, signifying God's anointed one. :The Egyptian link appears again, with Murdock noting that this 'Christing' or :anointing, also appears with the term 'masu', equivalent to messiah, so that :"Osiris and Horus were Christs and Messiahs" (p319).

Budge notes that Horus and Thoth are equated to the Word (p321) in ancient :Egypt, an idea that carried over into early Christian belief, before the origins of :Christian myth in Egypt was banned from discussion. So it is unsurprising that :early Christian amulets showed belief in both the old Egyptian deities and the new :faith of Christ (p321).

Also, we can note the following:

Quote
Murdock states "the 'lamb of God' ... at times refers to the Age of Aries and ... :may be applicable to Horus 'the golden calf' after the end of the precessional Age :of Taurus" (p331).

" It is worth pointing out that there is no need to believe anything magical to :understand this idea. The depiction of the constellation Taurus as a bull is very :old, apparently older than the depiction of Aries as a ram. There is no question that supernatural ideas entered the Biblical use of this :zodiac symbolism."

But most importantly here is that On pp. 313-9, It goes into a detailed discussion of the Egyptian word transliterated as "krst," "karast," "krst, "qeres-t," "qrst," etc., providing the Egyptian hieroglyphs in regards to the term "Christ". As it states say here:
Quote
Not only is Osiris the "Lord of Truth," the "good shepherd" and "sin-bearer," :but, as the "lord of the tomb," he was essentially also called "Christ," since one :Egyptian term for "tomb," "funeral," "dead body" or "mummy" is qrst, likewise :transliterated as krst, karast, qeres-t, qrs.t and qrst.

You can then relate the contentions about this issue made by lay Egyptologist Gerald Massey as Massey states the following:

Quote
We now proceed to show that Christ the anointed is none other than the Osiris-karast, and that the karast mummy risen to its feet as Osiris-sahu was the :prototypal Christ. Unhappily these demonstrations cannot be made without a :wearisome mass of detail.... Dr. Budge, in his book on the mummy, tells his :readers that the Egyptian word for mummy is ges, which signifies to wrap up in :bandages…. [The word] ges or kes, to embalm the corpse or make the mummy, :is a reduced or abraded form of an earlier word, karas (whence krst for the mummy). The original word written in hieroglyphics is ---- krst, whence kas, to :embalm, to bandage, to knot, to make the mummy or karast (Birch, Dictionary of :the Hieroglyphics, pp. 415-416; Champollion, Gram. Egyptienne, 86). The word :krs denotes the embalmment of the mummy, and the krst, as the mummy, was made in the process of preparation by purifying, anointing, and embalming. To :karas the dead body was to embalm it, to bandage it, to make the mummy. The :mummy was the Osirian Corpus Christi, prepared for burial as the laid-out dead, :the karast by name. When raised to its feet, it was the risen mummy, or sahu. :The place of embalmment was likewise the krs. Thus the process of making the :mummy was to karas, the place in which it was laid is the karas, and the product :was the krst, whose image is the upright mummy=the risen Christ. Hence, the :name of the Christ, Christos in Greek, Chrestus in Latin, for the anointed, was :derived…from the Egyptian word krst….

And yes that is a Fact:


Quote
http://truthbeknown.com/images/krstchampollion80.jpg

Hieroglyph, signifying KRST or Mummy
(Champollion, Grammaire Egyptienne, 80)

-

http://truthbeknown.com/images/krstbirch416.jpg

(Birch, Dictionary of Hieroglyphics, 316)

And I even can quote where you learn where you get Baptism from:

Quote
As we discover, the mummy - the deceased as "the Osiris" - is anointed for :burial, a sacred ritual essentially the same as baptism, both of which are for :purification. The anointing of the mummy constitutes its purification in order to :pass into the desired afterlife. The Osiris is anointed = Osiris is KRST. In my book :I go into detail about how Osiris and Horus are often interchangeable, as one's :death gives rise to the other's birth, with the cycle endlessly repeated. I also :explain more about the purification of the dead, the baptism provided by the :beheaded Anubis the purifier.

And I don't even have to go into the subject of where you get your cross from..  There is nothing to show us that Christ is anything more than a fictional character based on preexisting oral traditions and beliefs... You think this is being blindly dismissive, but it's not.. You can't provide me contemporary records or any information to validate your claims of Jesus's magical resurrection any more than you could the resurrection of Horus or any other GOD figure. And it gets much worse:

Hence, these examples below really make it even more apparent in regards to Christian philosophy and Egyptian philosophy:

Quote
* Horus and the Father are one.
* Jesus says, "I and My Father are one. He that seeth Me, seeth Him that sent Me."
-
* Horus is the Father seen in the Son.
* Jesus claims to be the Son in whom the Father is revealed.
-
* Horus was the light of the world, the light that is represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
* Jesus is made to declare that He is the light of the world.
-
* Horus was the way, the truth, the life by name and in person.
* Jesus is made to assert that he is the way, the truth, and the life.
-
* Horus was the plant, the shoot, the natzar.
* Jesus is made to say: "I am the true vine."
-
* Horus says: It is I who traverse the heaven; I go round the Sekhet-Arru (the Elysian Fields); Eternity has been assigned to me without end. Lo! I am heir of endless time and my attribute is eternity.
* Jesus says: " I am come down from Heaven. For this is the will of the Father that everyone who beholdeth the Son and believeth in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (He, too, claims to be lord of eternity.)
-
* Horus says: " I open the Tuat that I may drive away the darkness."
* Jesus says: " I am come a light unto the world."
-
* Horus says: I am equipped with thy words O Ra (the father in heaven) (ch.32) and repeat them to those who are deprived of breath. (ch.38). These were the words of the father in heaven.
* Jesus says: " The Father which sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. Whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. The word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."


Though I giggle when I go to Carm and read their official statement on Christian vs the Egyptian culture, beliefs, oral traditions, and rituals from which Christianity largely takes from besides the other Pagan sources we already discussed . :

http://carm.org/christianity-egyptian-beliefs

Their argument is avoidance and dogma, and most importantly it doesn't address anything. It's essentially an attack page on Atheism and really nothing more.. This while hilariously linking to a video they would have been better of not linking to.. And often on those forums you see them trying to debunk common mistakes such as Horus being of a virgin birth. Well, none of us that know what we are talking about make such claims as that concept comes from other sources as the Egyptians are not the only ones who have had influence on the evolution of Christianity.. But we can address are such things as:

Barbara G. Walker, The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets:

Quote
“Of all savior-gods worshipped at the beginning of the Christian era, Osiris may have contributed more details to the evolving Christ figure than any other. Already very old in Egypt, Osiris was identified with nearly every other Egyptian god and was on the way to absorbing them all. He had well over 200 divine names. He was called Lord of lords, King of kings, God of gods. He was the Resurrection and the Life, the Good Shepherd, the God who made men and women to be born again. From First to Last, Osiris was to the Egyptians “the god-man” who suffered, and died, and rose again, and reigned eternally in heaven. They believed that they would inherit eternal life, just as he had done.”

And here is another good source for Horus if you want to read more on Him..:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uTZSlQdevGgC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=I+open+the+Tuat+that+I+may+drive+away+the+darkness&source=bl&ots=mXNCwyi3IX&sig=QwGJcfRM7Ht5p4_yI7eWeJJsLyo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8veAUIrQLKfe0gGv5oHQBg&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20open%20the%20Tuat%20that%20I%20may%20drive%20away%20the%20darkness&f=false

We can even see, just for fun, Egyptian "influence" in our modern culture..You also have "In God we Trust" on the dollar bill, and the Egyptian pyramid on the back with the eye of Horus.. The one dollar bill, the American dollar, is considered the foundation and chief-cornerstone of this nation. That is what it represents. And you can see this pictured here:



But lets take another example in regards to the following image:



Well, if you don't understand what that image is supposed to represent, or mean..., Here you go:




And we can go into the second coming of Christ stuff as well, and about Jesus and the falcon, or birds of prey in relation to the rapture to which is derived from Raptor to which is symbolism for how birds of prey take away their prey. Hence, Jesus has a lot more in common with Egyptians than Christians would have you think:

The Cross and symbol of Horus their Sun god / savior:



Here is a bible depiction:



Which btw tells you where you also get your concept of angels with wings from:



And this video goes much more into the visual religious comparison issue through visual examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1CWBKRWIg0&feature=related


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« Reply #227 on: December 16, 2012, 09:25:08 PM »

What a bunch of crap.
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« Reply #228 on: December 16, 2012, 09:27:58 PM »

The only one here who's brought up the Egyptians is TheJackel. The same who also assumes we are both ignorant and shocked by apparent parallels. Instead he looks like a screaming fool
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« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2012, 09:48:01 PM »

Quote
He doesn't want to engage you on an academic level, he wants to divert you to strawmen and false conclusions.


Really, show me contemporary, or more specifically secular contemporary records.. Perhaps provide us where Jesus has written  down his own philosophies and works of literature? Was he illiterate?  How about written documentation from these supposed 500 witnesses? For such an amazing event in human history, it's pretty funny how 500 people haven't written a damn thing, or are even quoted and documented this supposed event themselves..  You want to play on an academic level, I suggest providing academic sources.  There is no strawman in telling you that the Gospels ect are not contemporary records.. Your asking me to comment on the supposed resurrection of Jesus as if you think it's my job to prove your claims wrong even though I am doing a pretty good job of that.. So when I post information that shows Jesus to be a fictional Character it's suddenly a strawman argument because you can't seem to demonstrate and provide any actual evidence... Can you even name me 1/2 the 500 supposed witnesses? 30 or 40 of em perhaps? How about a record of these witnesses outside the bible?  You also have to deal with these problems considering Jesus:

And of course we also have these issues concerning Christianity:

Quote
   What maxim does Paul attribute to Jesus?

        "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts xx, 35).

    These are not "the words of the Lord Jesus," but of the Pagan Epicurus, a man whose character Christians have for centuries defamed.

    Concerning the teachings of Jesus, Col. Thomas W. Higginson says:

        "When they tell me that Jesus taught a gospel of love, I say I believe it. Plato taught a gospel of love before him, and you deny it. If they say, Jesus taught that it is better to bear an injury than to retaliate, I say, yes, but so did Aristotle before Jesus was born. I will accept it as the statement of Jesus if you will admit that Aristotle said it too. I am willing that any man should come before us and say, Jesus taught that you must love your enemies, it is written in the Bible; but, if he will open the old manuscript of Diogenes Laertus, he may there read in texts that have never been disputed, that the Greek philosophers, half a dozen of them, said the same before Jesus was born."

        "That the system of morals propounded in the New Testament contained no maxim which had not been previously enunciated, and that some of the most beautiful passages in the apostolic writings are quotations from Pagan authors, is well known to every scholar.... To assert that Christianity communicated to man moral truths previously unknown, argues on the part of the asserted either gross ignorance or wilful fraud"
        -- Buckle, History of Civilization, Vol. I, p. 129

        "It can do truth no service to blind the fact, known to all who have the most ordinary acquaintance with literary history, that a large portion of the noblest and most valuable moral teaching has been the work not only of men who did not know, but of men who knew and rejected the Christian faith"
        -- John Stuart Mill, Liberty

Yeah, nothing like taking Pagan philosophy and pretending you came up with it. So nothing like riding on the backs of others to build a religion.. :/ Christianity is by understanding a copy paste religion. and we can see this very issue in the Stilling of the Tempest:

Stilling of the Tempest (Mark 4:35ff.)

Well, lets evaluate that shall we?:
Quote
   12. The Stilling of the Storm (4:35-41)

    Helms (pp. 76, 77) demonstrates how this story has been rewritten from Jonah’s adventure, with additions from certain of the Psalms. The basis for the story can be recognized in Jonah 1:4-6, “But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up. Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried to his god… But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down, and was fast asleep. So the captain came and said to him, ‘What do you mean, you sleeper? Arise, call upon your god! Perhaps the god will give a thought to us, that we do not perish.” Once Jonah turns out to be the guilty party, they throw him into the maw of the sea, “and the sea ceased from its raging. The men feared the LORD exceedingly” (1:15b-16a). See also Psalm 107:23-29: “Some went down to the sea in ships, doing business on the great waters; they saw the deeds of the LORD, his wondrous works in the deep. For he commanded, and raised the stormy wind, which lifted up the waves of the sea. They mounted up to the heavens, they went down unto the depths; their courage melted away in their evil plight; they reeled and staggered like drunken men, and were at their wits’ end. Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress; he made the storm be still, and the waves of the sea were hushed.”

    Mark was aware of a similar episode in the Odyssey 10:1-69, in which Odysseus set sail with his dozen ships from the Isle of Aeolus, the god of winds. Aeolus had given Odysseus a bag containing mighty winds in case he should be stalled in the doldrums. Odysseus falls asleep in the hold, and his men sneak a peek into the bag, letting the winds escape. The ships managed to survive the storm, but Odysseus rebuked his crew for their dangerous folly. MacDonald (pp. 68, 174-175) indicates the origin of Jesus’ rebuke to the disciples here (Mark 1:40), as well as the puzzling detail in Mark 1:36 that Jesus and the disciples were accompanied by “other boats.” It makes no sense in Mark and must be understood as a vestige of the Odyssey.

Yeah, again riding on the back others here.. But Lets address another scholar:

    New Testament scholar Robert Price, who argues it is quite likely there never was an historical Jesus, writes that the Jesus myth theory is based on three pillars:

Quote
       There is no mention of a miracle-working Jesus in secular sources.
        The Pauline epistles, earlier than the gospels, do not provide evidence of a recent historical Jesus.
        The story of Jesus shows strong parallels to Middle Eastern religions about dying and rising gods, symbolizing the rebirth of the individual as a rite of passage. He writes that Christian apologists have tried to minimize these parallels.



« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:18:56 PM by TheJackel » Logged
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« Reply #230 on: December 16, 2012, 09:54:54 PM »

The only one here who's brought up the Egyptians is TheJackel. The same who also assumes we are both ignorant and shocked by apparent parallels. Instead he looks like a screaming fool

The parrallels are actually quite factually valid..And way to demonstrate one of Rober Rice's points.  The problem is that some Christians think that when someone points out actual Egyptian influence in Christianity, it must somehow mean that is the only source in being proclaimed from which Christianity stole from.. No Christianity is essentially a mixed mutt of Pagan beliefs, oral traditions, rituals ect from various sources to which includes the Egyptians.. And I gave plenty of direct evidence for that.  There is literally nothing original about the story of Jesus.. And it takes severe woeful ignorance to think Christianity was not influenced by cultures such as the Egyptians, the Cannaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, or the Sumerians ect ect.... Especially when it developed from within those cultures to which actually make the parallels extremely valid...  Even temples to ISIS were converted to that of Mary, and we know very well that Christianity largely developed out of Egypt. Coptics are direct proof of that very fact whether you like it or not..  Christianity didn't just magically pop up as some original belief system / religion..    

Everything from the olive branch crown, the crucifixion, to baptism and literally just every aspect of Christianity derives from preexisting Pagan beliefs and mythology..  It's in the art, rituals, literature, and culture whether you want to admit it or not.. There is no pinning the origins of Christianity on any one particular Pagan source of beliefs as it takes from pretty much all of them..It's like a perfect example of the BORG to which assimilates other cultures ect into that of it's own with the exception here that Christians love to proclaim it was all magically their own as if they magically came up with it...

You would have better luck proving the Game Doom 3 magically has nothing to do with Doom1 or even the first FPS game.
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« Reply #231 on: December 16, 2012, 10:19:28 PM »

Yawn. 

Heard it all before.
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« Reply #232 on: December 16, 2012, 10:29:42 PM »

Yawn.  

Heard it all before.

So what.. You can yawn, dismiss it, balk at it, or even ignore all the facts presented as you like.. You can go believe what-ever you want but it is not going to magically change the facts, or make the hieroglyphic dictionary, for example, false or any different. Reality doesn't conform to what you want to believe no matter how good you are at denying it. I get the same responses from scientologists, Mormons on their fraudulant religion based on bad archeology, Flat Earthers, Hallow Earthers, UFO buffs, people professing the existence of big foot ect.  All of you use the same arguments to support your positions of belief to which inherently requires denial of facts... I have no more reason to believe the Earth is flat than to believe Jesus magically existed and was resurrected.

So here's the deal.. I shouldn't bother responding here anymore on this subject until you can at least provide a discussion with credible citation.. You can start simple with hieroglyphic dictionary to which I pointed out earlier, and the Hebrew translation and use of Hallelujah / Halleluyah. I will wait here, and take as much time as you need.
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« Reply #233 on: December 16, 2012, 10:34:42 PM »

You can't even spell jackal.

Go back to the atheist boards or wherever it is oddballs like you usually hang out.
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« Reply #234 on: December 16, 2012, 10:43:11 PM »

You can't even spell jackal.

Go back to the atheist boards or wherever it is oddballs like you usually hang out.

People with dyslexia such as myself have a very hard time with this issue.. It's not about spelling as it is trying to write it out ect.. But hey way to show Christian "love" by attacking someone's disabilities.. Jesus would be proud of you! And it's pretty interesting that us Atheists know more about Christianity than most Christians do.. Difference between me and you, I don't have to deny the hard evidence to uphold my position, or personally attack someone's disabilities to do so either.  And let's face it, you aren't going to provide me anything I asked for simply because you and I know damn well you can't.. You express your belief, but that's really all you can do here. And my positions are far more empirically supported than yours are.  
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« Reply #235 on: December 16, 2012, 10:47:55 PM »

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« Reply #236 on: December 16, 2012, 10:49:40 PM »

I didn't know you were dyslexic until now, so your hyperemotional outburst is irrational. All you can do is continue to ridicule other people and whine about how much better you supposedly are than everyone else. Anyway, since you were only off by one letter, you could just admit you were wrong and fix it, but it's your choice.

Take your ego trip where it's wanted.
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« Reply #237 on: December 16, 2012, 10:58:26 PM »

Actually a troll looks to get emotional responses ect.. This discussion had nothing to do with "trolling".. Please look up the definition of internet troll before trying to use it. So you are going to label anyone and everyone a troll to whom comes on your board and puts up arguments that don't coincide or agree with your beliefs? Now that is irony for ya.. :/  

Quote
I didn't know you were dyslexic until now, so your hyperemotional outburst is irrational.

The point of me stating that is to show the level of ignorance you set as an example. I know you didn't know, but the fact that you didn't bother to think about that before attacking someone's spelling is the issue. Why would you attack someones spelling as some sort of means of argument on your fora? That internet troll image posted really demonstrates the irony of that as well.  There is no need to go down that road as a civil discussion is far more productive.  All I have asked any of you to do is provide me contemporary records and evidence without absolute negatives or appeals to ignorance.  If you can prove the existence of Jesus for example, that would be one step closer to having a constructive discussion here.  right?  All I did was provide my argument and the evidence I have to which supports me positions I am taking..  I am always open to more evidence should you be able to provide it.
Quote
so your hyperemotional outburst is irrational.

And this is projecting here as you are assuming I am even upset or hyperemotional.
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« Reply #238 on: December 16, 2012, 10:58:34 PM »

You still haven't directly answered anyone. Perhaps after you start doing that will someone directly answer your hodgepodge on newage semi-intellectual crap.
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« Reply #239 on: December 16, 2012, 11:09:29 PM »

The only one here who's brought up the Egyptians is TheJackel. The same who also assumes we are both ignorant and shocked by apparent parallels. Instead he looks like a screaming fool

The parrallels are actually quite factually valid..And way to demonstrate one of Rober Rice's points.  The problem is that some Christians think that when someone points out actual Egyptian influence in Christianity, it must somehow mean that is the only source in being proclaimed from which Christianity stole from.. No Christianity is essentially a mixed mutt of Pagan beliefs, oral traditions, rituals ect from various sources to which includes the Egyptians.. And I gave plenty of direct evidence for that.  There is literally nothing original about the story of Jesus.. And it takes severe woeful ignorance to think Christianity was not influenced by cultures such as the Egyptians, the Cannaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, or the Sumerians ect ect.... Especially when it developed from within those cultures to which actually make the parallels extremely valid...  Even temples to ISIS were converted to that of Mary, and we know very well that Christianity largely developed out of Egypt. Coptics are direct proof of that very fact whether you like it or not..  Christianity didn't just magically pop up as some original belief system / religion..    

Everything from the olive branch crown, the crucifixion, to baptism and literally just every aspect of Christianity derives from preexisting Pagan beliefs and mythology..  It's in the art, rituals, literature, and culture whether you want to admit it or not.. There is no pinning the origins of Christianity on any one particular Pagan source of beliefs as it takes from pretty much all of them..It's like a perfect example of the BORG to which assimilates other cultures ect into that of it's own with the exception here that Christians love to proclaim it was all magically their own as if they magically came up with it...

You would have better luck proving the Game Doom 3 magically has nothing to do with Doom1 or even the first FPS game.

We aren't baking a cake here pal. Add a little of this or that. Our belief is based on a particular person.
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« Reply #240 on: December 16, 2012, 11:22:50 PM »

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We aren't baking a cake here pal. Add a little of this or that. Our belief is based on a particular person.

To which you believe existed.. That's fine, but does that require ignoring the rest of the world and the facts surrounding that belief? I think this is where we have a break in the bridge between us.. In perspective, that would be similar to difference between Orthodox Christianity and the Mormons. Hence, as an example, you as and Orthodox Christian can sit there and provide all the evidence of how their beliefs are constructed on fraudulent archeology and a reformed Egyptian language doesn't even exist with no willingness from them to admit those facts.. That's similarly the break in the bridge we are having here. However, the interesting part is that I am sure that you and I would agree that the Mormon faith is based on Joseph Smiths fraudulent claims of Egyptians scrolls being the second book of Abraham. Now if they could provide direct evidence that proves their claim, to which includes the supposed golden tablets, I would be more open to considering their positions with some credibility.  This is the sort of evidence I would require from you.. This has a lot to do with why I left Christianity, and it's a valid position to take when all I am essentially given is a Carl Sagan dragon ":/ 
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« Reply #241 on: December 16, 2012, 11:25:02 PM »

I can feel my faith in humanity melting away.
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« Reply #242 on: December 16, 2012, 11:31:04 PM »

However, the interesting part is that I am sure that you and I would agree that the Mormon faith is based on Joseph Smiths fraudulent claims of Egyptians scrolls being the second book of Abraham.

No, their belief is based on the "Book of Mormon" provided through gold tablets found in the woods and translated by seer stones. The papyrus wasn't found until years later after the Mormon cult was already underway.

Christianity instead revolves around the belief that a good man whom also performed miracles was, in fact, God incarnate. We don't have much record of Jesus outside of the biblical scriptures and apocrypha. Most of what we have is limited to contested second and third person accounts, e.g. Flavius Josephus. However, we do have the Apostles whom Jesus preached. These are the same Apostles that spread the civilized world preaching their religion and dying for a man they 'never met'. It was these Apostles that would have disciples who would provide the earliest of our orthodox Christian manuscripts, e.g. Irenaeus.

So, yes. A bit different.
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« Reply #243 on: December 16, 2012, 11:35:16 PM »

However, the interesting part is that I am sure that you and I would agree that the Mormon faith is based on Joseph Smiths fraudulent claims of Egyptians scrolls being the second book of Abraham.

No, their belief is based on the "Book of Mormon" provided through gold tablets found in the woods and translated by seer stones. The papyrus wasn't found until years later after the Mormon cult was already underway.

Shh, don't tell him that. He wants to think he's schooling people who don't read.
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« Reply #244 on: December 16, 2012, 11:40:16 PM »

I can feel my faith in humanity melting away.

Why? Humanity has come a long way since the dark ages. For example, should I lose faith in humanity if I read "Thou shall not kill" from the ten commandments while at the same time reading that the supposed prophet who brought them down, professed them as the will of GOD, goes off and kills and commands the murder of women, men, and children?  It's like that commandment meant little to nothing to him.. It's basically an oxymoron and an ultimate case of irony. A book that can be stated as one of the most blood stained pieces of literature one can read, or see that has been brutally been fought over.  
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« Reply #245 on: December 17, 2012, 12:02:59 AM »

I can feel my faith in humanity melting away.

Why? Humanity has come a long way since the dark ages. For example, should I lose faith in humanity if I read "Thou shall not kill" from the ten commandments while at the same time reading that the supposed prophet who brought them down, professed them as the will of GOD, goes off and kills and commands the murder of women, men, and children?  It's like that commandment meant little to nothing to him.. It's basically an oxymoron and an ultimate case of irony. A book that can be stated as one of the most blood stained pieces of literature one can read, or see that has been brutally been fought over. 

Whatever you say, my friend.

EDIT: Now rather than focusing on me, why don't you answer the questions of some of these other nice people. They're much more valid than my musings. Chop chop.
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« Reply #246 on: December 17, 2012, 01:11:11 AM »

Quote
No, their belief is based on the "Book of Mormon" provided through gold tablets found in the woods and translated by seer stones. The papyrus wasn't found until years later after the Mormon cult was already underway.

Have you ever read the book of mormon? ... It's based on fraudulent nonsense. He claimed those tablets helped him translate those scrolls.. And much of the book of mormon is based on those scrolls with dubious translations of single characters that consisted of entire paragraphs .. In fact we have the scrolls in which were thought to be destroyed.. The official response from them is that "oh, those aren't the ones he claimed were the second book of Abraham" .. It's so bad it's ridiculous..

Quote
Christianity instead revolves around the belief that a man performed miracles an was, in fact, God incarnate. We don't have much record of Jesus outside of the biblical scriptures and apocrypha. Most of what we have is limited to contested second and third person accounts, e.g. Flavius Josephus. However, we do have the Apostles whom Jesus preached. These are the same Apostles that spread the civilized world preaching their religion and dying for a man they 'never met'. It was these Apostles that would have disciples who would provide the earliest of our orthodox Christian manuscripts, e.g. Irenaeus.

I am aware of what Christianity believes in.. And you have no records of Jesus outside invested interest scriptures ect. And Flavius is quite a dubious character having defected to Rome... However, your examples are not contemporary records.  And people die for things they never met all the time in that era. People killed in the name of their supposed GOD's and died for them all the time. However the Apostles are full of problems.. Hence Paul gave himself that title and only was ever stated by another to whom was his companion luke.. And Paul never actually met Jesus, and nor has he claimed to. But that is a very small issue when dealing the Apostles.. Fore example:

Two of Jesus' "inner circle" to whom were James and John, and supposed witnesses to such key events as the "transfiguration" suddenly disappear from the story after Acts 12.2 and when James is killed by the Jewish king Agrippa I. The funny part about this is that James is dead, and a few verses later, Peter, arrested in the same "persecution", escapes (with the assistance of an angel!) and tells the faithful:
Quote
"Go show these things to James and the brethren." (Acts 12.17).  

Pretty hard to do when James is dead. And there is a lot more things wrong with them.. And these sources go over a lot of those issues:


Eusebius, The History of the Church (Trans. Cushman McGiffert, Digireads, 2005)
Derek Williams, The Reach of Rome, A History of the Roman Imperial Frontier (Constable, 1996)
Edward Stourton, In the Footsteps of Saint Paul (Hodder & Stoughton, 2004)
Robert Wilken, The Myth of Christian Beginnings (SCM, 1971)
J. Murphy-O'Connor, Paul, A Critical Life (Clarendon, 1996)
J. Murphy-O'Connor, Paul, His Story (Oxford, 2005)
John Wacher, The Roman Empire (J.M.Dent, 1987)
R. Bagnall, D. Rathbone (Eds), Egypt from Alexander to the Copts (British Museum, 2004)

There is a reason why no secular contemporary sources exist, or even contemporary invested interested sources exist. And Authorship is also highly questionable.. Also the prophecy of the Messaih is supposed to be a man, not a god.. The Christian belief system is not coherent here, And the Jews have plenty of evidence regarding why Jesus is not a GOD incarnate..  Especially concerning the trinity as it makes no sense in ACTS, Genesis, or various other parts of the religions pagan foundations regarding this religion.. As in it literally makes no coherent sense for a deity to impregnate a woman with himself to become a human incarnate of himself and then talk about himself in 3rd person, or proclaims himself his own son while still talking about himself in 3rd person..  This Deity is either off his rocker, or not very intelligent. Or the more likely case is this is a classic case of attempting to equate Yahweh with Jesus Christ through dubious and fraudulent means to which includes quote mining the bible.. Like a Charlatan trying to make himself to be a GOD.. And of course strict yahwist would have reacted to this as such, and view Jesus as a false idol.. Hence this would be idolatry, or seen as a mistake just as the House of yahweh sees it. Also, there is also no evidence to support the existence of the 12 apostles either.  

 

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« Reply #247 on: December 17, 2012, 02:35:38 AM »

I suppose when he's done copy-pasting the same tired rants from the atheist boards, he'll complain we didn't let him say anything.

Also, doesn't this site have rules about how many chunks of text you can post from something before you trip over the limits of the Fair Use Act?

If Egyptian paganism is so awesome, how come no one cares about it beyond its place as a facet of history?

Oh, and read up on the spread of Islam, which makes the Crusades look like a bunch of pikers.

You can't be an atheist and a polytheist at the same time. Quit your rambling. The Orthodox faith has withstood a lot worse than you, Jackal.
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« Reply #248 on: December 17, 2012, 02:41:30 AM »

Mr. Jackel,

You do realise that there are several prominent men named James in the New Testament, yes?

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« Reply #249 on: December 17, 2012, 02:44:27 AM »

Mr. Jackel,

You do realise that there are several prominent men named James in the New Testament, yes?

Asteriktos

... and three of them were apostles.
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« Reply #250 on: December 17, 2012, 04:00:05 AM »

Mr. Jackel,

You do realise that there are several prominent men named James in the New Testament, yes?

Asteriktos

Except for the fact the only one he personally knew at that time in which he references was James in Acts, and this issue deals with ACTS and does not reference any other "James".  As far as Acts is concerned, the James in reference is already dead. But yes I realize there is more than one James throughout the bible.. So which James is he pointing to here in Acts?

Now in regards to this:
Quote
However the Bible wasn't canonically formed until 397AD at the Council of Carthage. So if the Bible wasn't formed until that late, what in the world did Christians believe and accept? By Holy Tradition, the faith that was passed down by the Apostles. So with this Tradition it selected which documents that were written by the Apostles or what was accepted by the Church. So by the Church can it only properly interpret the Bible because it gave birth to it.

I think these videos are quite interesting to which I am currently investigating myself.. Now I don't agree with everything here, but he makes some pretty valid points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9uoyRYoJ4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh_X3HsBqQM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ9QvzmSNzw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRAuKekRdys

So now who are the bishops of Christ in Egypt? Now remember my citation of where "Christ" comes from as that is Egyptian as noted.. And as far as tracking sources, this is what I gathered thus far (to which I still need to read):

Quote
Cyrus, King of Persia, was called the "Christ," or the "Anointed of God" (Bunsen, Bible Chronology, p. 5, Keys of St. Peter, p. 125). As Dr. Giles says, "Christ" is "a name having no spiritual signification, and importing nothing more than an ordinary surname" (Giles, Hebrew and Christian Records, p. 64, vol. ii). The worshippers of Serapis were called "Christians," and those devoted to Serapis were called "Bishops of Christ" long before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth (Ibid. p. 86; Taylor, Diegesis, pp. 202-206, 407). This fact is amazing. Eusebius, the ecclesiastical historian says, that the names of "Jesus" and "Christ," were both known and honored among the ancients (Eusebius, Eccl. History, lib. 1. Ch. iv.).

And:

Quote
Followers of Serapis were called Christians as demonstrated in a letter from Emperor Hadrian to Servianus, 134. (Quoted by Giles, ii p86)

Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis


And the fact that people reference Amen at the end of prayers doesn't help with segregating Christian emergence out of Egypt..And I may have just learned something new (highlighted):

Quote
Of all the gods Osiris alone had a place of birth and a place of burial. His birthplace was Mount Sinai, called by the Egyptians Mount Nyssa. Hence was derived the god's Greek name Dionysus, which is the same as the Hebrew Jehovah-Nissi" ("Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity," by Samuel Sharpe, pp. 10, 11; ed. 1863). Various places claimed the honour of his burial. "Serapis" was a god's name, formed out of "Osiris" and "Apis," the sacred bull, and we find (see ante, p. 206) that the Emperor Adrian wrote that the "worshippers of Serapis are Christians,"

How ever I am going to have to go to the library here in Boston and do some further digging and do some cross checking. That gets pretty interwoven even with the Sumerians in dealing with their moon GOD Sin.. So this should be quite interesting to dig into.. And the Roman Catholics of course connected to Egyptian mythology as blatantly obvious by the images provided concerning the roman Catholics / Coptics..



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« Reply #251 on: December 17, 2012, 04:58:23 AM »

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If Egyptian paganism is so awesome, how come no one cares about it beyond its place as a facet of history?

It's essentially modern Christianity.. In fact the way we have much of our instutions set up are very similar to how the Egyptians did it. Many of the rituals practiced by the Egyptians are still practiced today. They still influence culture, art, media ect.. And the Coptics especially.. The argument you are making is just that most Christians simply have no idea where their religion comes from, and what it's actually based on.. It's so awesome that most people don't even realize it's much a part of our culture..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisks
Quote

The spirit of the sun god was supposed to enter the stones at certain periods, and on these occasions human sacrifices were offered to it. The victims were probably prisoners of war who had been captured alive, and foreigners, and when these failed the priests must have drawn upon the native population.

At On, king after king erected benbens in Re’s honour, so that by 1300BC the city was full of obelisks. The Roman author Pliny wrote about this city of On where kings ‘entered into a kind of rivalry in forming elongated blocks of stone, known as obelisks, and consecrated them to the divinity of the Sun’.

In 'Our Phallic Heritage' we are told that 'All pillars or columns originally had a phallic significance, and were therefore considered sacred. Pan, the goat god and god of sensuality, was often represented as an obelisk.  A former witch writes 'The obelisk is a long pointed four sided shaft, the uppermost portion of which forms a pyramid. The word 'obelisk' literally means 'Baal's shaft' or Baal's organ of reproduction' (Page 341 Masonic and occult symbols illustrated. Dr. Cathy Burns)

And the most lasting symbol of the Egyptians is the cross you Christians wear.. It holds the same meaning as it did to the Egyptians.



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« Reply #252 on: December 17, 2012, 07:07:44 AM »

Please tell me why you believe He (or She) is actually there.

If possible, it would be nice to have fairly concise replies.
Thank you guys.

By He, we do mean a sexless God, JTLYK. He is the default for genderless.
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« Reply #253 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:49 AM »

How ever I am going to have to go to the library here in Boston and do some further digging and do some cross checking.

Um...seriously? You're actually going to the LIBRARY to research a topic for an Internet message board?

I salute your singleminded dedication to proving complete strangers wrong, but seriously?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #254 on: December 17, 2012, 11:41:58 AM »

Quote
And the most lasting symbol of the Egyptians is the cross you Christians wear.. It holds the same meaning as it did to the Egyptians.

Nope. Please replace the expression "same meaning" with "a bit similiar". There's no theological concept behind the ankh "cross". Just the coptics use the same cross. The meaning of ankh: reproduction and sexual union. According to other sources [ankh] means life and zest for life or future life."

Do you know the meaning of the cross in orthodoxy?
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« Reply #255 on: December 17, 2012, 01:55:05 PM »

Hmm I think we are being a bit too hard on him. His posts are extremely scattershot, but I do not understand this continued mission of denouncing Christianity anyway possible.

I'd love to break down his posts but I won't since I'm on post moderation.

I'll just say that many of the mythical parallels are either made up, taken out of context, or seemingly close to Christ. And even if the latter is the case, it doesn't matter. It's like how many cultures had sacrifices as part of their religious beliefs, but for Christians the true sacrafice was made on the cross. So these cultures may have some of the truth, albeit skewed.
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« Reply #256 on: December 17, 2012, 05:35:48 PM »

It be nice if you (TheJackel) posted three arguements to debate, or some other reasonably number, and then allow a discussion. Otherwise, with this cut and past rambling and unsubstantiated statements, you're likely to just be ignored and laughed at.
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« Reply #257 on: December 17, 2012, 06:21:46 PM »

How could Christ be the expectation of all nations unless all nations had an element of truth by which to adhere to the fulfillment of the expectation?  The similarities of flood stories confirm that there was a catastrophic flood.   Contrary to the claims of damien thorne, the similarities confirm Christianity, that they naturally had a sense of Trinity in Unity before the time came, but left to their own phantasia formed an idol rather than an icon of what that meant.   Orthodoxy has been consistant on this point.  Go ahead, continue to prove we are right by showing that more pagans had the sense of divinity that Scripture and the Fathers say they had prior to Christ's coming to prepare them for it.   
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« Reply #258 on: December 17, 2012, 07:58:00 PM »

How could Christ be the expectation of all nations unless all nations had an element of truth by which to adhere to the fulfillment of the expectation?  The similarities of flood stories confirm that there was a catastrophic flood.   Contrary to the claims of damien thorne, the similarities confirm Christianity, that they naturally had a sense of Trinity in Unity before the time came, but left to their own phantasia formed an idol rather than an icon of what that meant.   Orthodoxy has been consistant on this point.  Go ahead, continue to prove we are right by showing that more pagans had the sense of divinity that Scripture and the Fathers say they had prior to Christ's coming to prepare them for it.   

Thank you for saying what I could not, or failed in trying to. I think those similarites add to the truth of Christianity because if it is a universal faith, you would see pieces of it throughout the world.

Bless Father!
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« Reply #259 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:48 PM »

Quote
We aren't baking a cake here pal. Add a little of this or that. Our belief is based on a particular person.

To which you believe existed.. That's fine, but does that require ignoring the rest of the world and the facts surrounding that belief? I think this is where we have a break in the bridge between us.. In perspective, that would be similar to difference between Orthodox Christianity and the Mormons. Hence, as an example, you as and Orthodox Christian can sit there and provide all the evidence of how their beliefs are constructed on fraudulent archeology and a reformed Egyptian language doesn't even exist with no willingness from them to admit those facts.. That's similarly the break in the bridge we are having here. However, the interesting part is that I am sure that you and I would agree that the Mormon faith is based on Joseph Smiths fraudulent claims of Egyptians scrolls being the second book of Abraham. Now if they could provide direct evidence that proves their claim, to which includes the supposed golden tablets, I would be more open to considering their positions with some credibility.  This is the sort of evidence I would require from you.. This has a lot to do with why I left Christianity, and it's a valid position to take when all I am essentially given is a Carl Sagan dragon ":/ 

   Most of your reasoning is done in an accounting type of logic which is quite limited. Itself becoming a trap in that it requires a mathematical answer. The moment the answer is given its as if all of the questions come to rest in that answer. That is the very moment that, that particular science has reached its limitation and by choosing to adhere to it full force, you have also limited your mind to a resting point which doesn't exist in reality. The spiritual world isn't a set of physical formula's. A person can't be explained in mathematics terms. Can you give a mathematical equation to who your mother is as a person. Could you describe her inner beauty. Can you bring her inner life into perspective with using mathematics? A person is a unique one off character that has a place in time and space. It must be truly unfathomable for you to comprehend what an individual person is than.
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« Reply #260 on: December 18, 2012, 03:51:08 AM »

How ever I am going to have to go to the library here in Boston and do some further digging and do some cross checking.

Um...seriously? You're actually going to the LIBRARY to research a topic for an Internet message board?

I salute your singleminded dedication to proving complete strangers wrong, but seriously?  Roll Eyes

No.. I will do so because I actually want to know.. And why not? Is there something wrong with going to a library and doing research on things one finds of interest? If you think it's about this message board, you seriously must think your board is incredibly Narcissistic.. O.o  I won't make any official arguments on it of course since I haven't researched the subject yet.  And it will be interesting to find out Smiley

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« Reply #261 on: December 18, 2012, 10:39:08 AM »

No ... no ... nothing wrong with it at all. Glad to hear there are still people out there willing to spend hours and hours in our undersupported library system.
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« Reply #262 on: December 18, 2012, 11:45:52 AM »

How ever I am going to have to go to the library here in Boston and do some further digging and do some cross checking.

Um...seriously? You're actually going to the LIBRARY to research a topic for an Internet message board?

I salute your singleminded dedication to proving complete strangers wrong, but seriously?  Roll Eyes

No.. I will do so because I actually want to know.. And why not? Is there something wrong with going to a library and doing research on things one finds of interest? If you think it's about this message board, you seriously must think your board is incredibly Narcissistic.. O.o  I won't make any official arguments on it of course since I haven't researched the subject yet.  And it will be interesting to find out Smiley
Not saying you are doing this or ever would do this, but we actually had someone else on this forum who took time off from work to go the library and dig up information he could use in an ongoing debate and then blamed us for making him do so. Roll Eyes
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tweety234
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« Reply #263 on: December 19, 2012, 06:35:10 PM »

I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?

Yes, I would. Also, it's possible that they believed something to be true, without it actually being true.

possibly a hillucination that they believed to be real. That is possible, but I doubt it. It takes extreme fantasy to have this type of hilucination.
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« Reply #264 on: December 21, 2012, 12:59:51 AM »

Actually a troll looks to get emotional responses ect.. This discussion had nothing to do with "trolling".. Please look up the definition of internet troll before trying to use it. So you are going to label anyone and everyone a troll to whom comes on your board and puts up arguments that don't coincide or agree with your beliefs? Now that is irony for ya.. :/  

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I didn't know you were dyslexic until now, so your hyperemotional outburst is irrational.

The point of me stating that is to show the level of ignorance you set as an example. I know you didn't know, but the fact that you didn't bother to think about that before attacking someone's spelling is the issue. Why would you attack someones spelling as some sort of means of argument on your fora? That internet troll image posted really demonstrates the irony of that as well.  There is no need to go down that road as a civil discussion is far more productive.  All I have asked any of you to do is provide me contemporary records and evidence without absolute negatives or appeals to ignorance.  If you can prove the existence of Jesus for example, that would be one step closer to having a constructive discussion here.  right?  All I did was provide my argument and the evidence I have to which supports me positions I am taking..  I am always open to more evidence should you be able to provide it.
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so your hyperemotional outburst is irrational.

And this is projecting here as you are assuming I am even upset or hyperemotional.

What is your purpose for posting on this forum? 
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SavedByChrist94
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« Reply #265 on: December 29, 2012, 07:22:07 PM »

Then you are in error as God's existence and The Bible are Facts.


The Bible(40 Different witnesses, Approx. 60 Accounts, no Contradiction, No error, Scientific Foreknowledge, Historical Foreknowledge, Scientific Accuracy, Historical Accuracy, which means whether you like it or not, these witnesses and their accounts are valid for testing in Court of Law, and as proven All Accounts are Accurate and True.)

Jesus Christ Resurrection is The Only Explanation of the Facts, All other theories have been disproven and rendered Impossible, leaving only One possiblity(Resurrection) which means He really Resurrected from the dead.


The Shroud, no evidence of forgery, not a painting, has blood, x-ray like image, cannot be reproduced with any technology past or present therefore not man made/forged and is supernatural, caused by a burst of UV light from the body, crucified person who resembles Historical Jesus Christ to a tee.

Already with this Jesus Christ is The Lord/God and God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

First Uncaused Cause(Scientific and Philosophical Fact, in otherwords overall Fact and if you deny this you must deny "macro-evolution" as this actually is a Proven Fact.)

An Infinite Past of Anything in Succession(Matter, Time, Space, Energy, Change, cause & effect etc) is a Impossibility. if the past was infinite we would never get to the present, count down from Infinity to zero. therefore anything in succession must have a beginning in the finite past. which means it is an indeniable Fact that once nothing existed.(evident by this and the big bang)


Since infinite amount of past cause and effect is impossible it had to start, which means there is a cause which has no cause, The First Uncaused Cause.

The Cause is,

- Uncaused since has no cause

- Beginningless since if began to exist must have a cause.

-Changeless since an Infinite Amount of past change is impossible and a change requires a cause, First Uncaused Cause has no cause

- Timeless since changeless, no change, and no Time.

- Eternal since has always existed, is changeless(ceasing to exist would be a change) and is Timeless.

- Spaceless since Timeless and changeless, things in space are ever changing and are in time.

- Immaterial since Timeless and Changless, matter is ever changing, changeless material doesn't exist, and changeless material cannot cause anything, therefore Immaterial.

-All Powerful since created everything and lesser doesn't produce the greater.

- Of Which No Greater Can Be Conceived since Created Everything.

Now that was part 1,

Part 2,

3 Indeinable Facts

1, Whatever Begins to exists has a cause

2, The Universe began to exist(infinite regression is impossible, big bang, and Borde, Guide, Valienkin Theorem make this an irrefutable Fact.)

3, Therefore The Universe has a Cause to it's existence.

The Cause of The Universe is,

-Spaceless and Timeless, since Created/Started/Caused Space and Time, can therefore exist without Space and Time.

- Since Spaceless and Timeless is Changeless

-Since Changeless is Immaterial, and since doesn't change, The Cause didn't start to exist, making it The First Uncaused Cause.

The First Uncaused Cause is The Cause of The Universe.

Now time to prove that this is without a shadow of a doubt God(which means whether "macro-evolution" happened or not, God exists and you have to accept that)

1. That fits God's description to a tee.

2. The First Uncaused Cause is The Direct Cause of The Universe, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is a First Uncaused Cause who Directly Caused The Universe.

3, Is Immaterial therefore can either be a Mind or Abstract Object such as numbers(The Mind is immaterial and we'll get to that later), Abstract objects cause nothing, therefore a Mind.

4, Fine Tuning, The Universe is so fine tuned for life that there's only 3 possibilities as to why,

Law, Chance, or Design. Cannot be law or chance, since Law can be different and Chance is Extremely Improbable that it's Factual it didn't happen that way, therefore Obviously Designed.

5, Only 2 types of causes. Accidential/Mindless or Intentional/Mind, Accidents require a prior cause, therefore cannot be accidential therefore caused on Purpose, God exists.

6, All "naturalistic" theories are Impossible.

1, "naturalism" is disproven by The Universe being caused so by default Supernatural and Immaterial exists.

2, Nothing existed and nothing causes nothing, the "nothing causes something" Quantum Mechanics argument proposed by w-child has been thrown in the fire with these facts,

1, The Quantum Vaccum isn't empty space.

2, Nothing cannot cause something with this fact,

The Cause of an effect must be equivelent or greater than it's effect,

Nothing has no properties, something has properties. so for nothing to cause something it would need the properties to do so, so if nothing caused something, it needs to properties of something rendering it to be something instead of nothing! and if nothing caused something it would need the properties from something eternal rendering it again not nothing.

Nothing can only cause, nothing.

and the "universe caused itself" argument(whoever posed this argument needs their liscense revoked, is automatically void as if the universe caused itself it would have already needed to exist!.

And lastly as proven in #5 can only have been caused on purpose.

There is no naturalistic explanation as 1, Supernatural exist, 2, it's impossible for nothing to cause something and 3, it is an impossiblity for The First Uncaused Cause to cause on accident.

#7, Creation ex nihilo proves The Bible is even more Scientifically Accurate and Correct, Creation ex Nihilo proves God exists and God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit who is 1 God that is 3 Persons.

Dualism


1. If the mind was the brain or any material then everything we do, all thoughts, actions, plans, will, cognitive functions etc would be accidential, rendering free will nonexistent. Free Will exists therefore the mind cannot be material.

you therefore have 3 choices,

1, No Director(mind), rendering nerve signals random, which is false since we do have a mind and do direct our nerve signals, that is a fact.

2, Material Director which is false since it would be the same as no director because there would be no direction to energy signals.

3, Immaterial Director where nerve signals can be directed.

2. material is mindless, when you laugh, do your cheeks or hands, or face know what your laughing about? no, they're just a piece of meat, it knows nothing, such as your eyeballs, fingers etc.

3. Immaterial Properties exist, Love, Emotions, Abstract Objects(Numbers), Data, Feelings, Beliefs, Delusions, Fantasies, all exist, yet aren't material.

For example, what is material about the data you're reading off this sentence? Physically it's energy signals hitting your screen, now unless you say the data isn't real, then it's Immaterial.

4, Thoughts are not material, and if they are material whatever causes them cannot be material.

Think of a pink giant elephant, now if your head was cut open would we find that elephant? no. can anyone hear what you're thinking? nope, it's not material.

When you talk to someone, are you talking to a person or just flesh? if you say the latter than you might as well say you can talk to the wall and be perfectly fine.

5. Color is not material.

6, Here's an experiment, Hit your hand on the desk, feel the pain? now it is a fact that you are not your hand, if we cut off your hand and the nerves in it you would be incapable of feeling it. this means the reason you feel your hand is because of a connection to you(can be brain or Immaterial Spirit, I'm allowing both for experiment)

Now lets assume your mind is your brain as most "atheist" assume, and the brain is the connection to the hand, now if your brain is what is allowing you to feel your hand, then that is impossible, if you're your brain, when your hand gets hit, you'd feel the pain in your head, not your hand. now you cannot say the brain sending energy signals to the hand is causing the pain since you aren't your hand! we can cut it off and you won't be able to feel it anymore.

The Only Possibility is that your hand is connected to your brain and you are an Immaterial Substance that can feel the hand, otherwise there is no possiblity of feeling your hand.

7, Third, I believe it is important to note that some of the world’s foremost neuroscientists have believed that the mind is immaterial. These neuroscientists have been well aware that stimulating the brain can produce some intriguing psychological results. One of the pioneers in the field of neuroscience was Wilder Penfield. In his fascinating book The Mystery of the Mind, he writes the following:


When I have caused a conscious patient to move his hand by applying an electrode to the motor cortex of one hemisphere, I have often asked him about it. Invariably his response was: ‘I didn’t do that. You did.’ When I caused him to vocalize, he said: ‘I didn’t make that sound. You pulled it out of me.’ When I caused the record of the stream of consciousness to run again and so presented to him the record of his past experience, he marveled that he should be conscious of the past as well as of the present. He was astonished that it should come back to him so completely, with more detail than he could possibly recall voluntarily. He assumed at once that, somehow, the surgeon was responsible for the phenomenon, but he recognized the details as those of his own past experience. (76)


Penfield goes on to note that “There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient . . . to decide” (77). This is consistent with my point that choices are undetermined events with a teleological explanation. In light of his work as a neuroscientist, Penfield concludes the following: “For my own part, after years of striving to explain the mind on the basis of brain-action alone, I have come to the conclusion that it is simpler (and far easier and logical) if one adopts the hypothesis that our being does consist of two fundamental elements” (80).



Read more: God and Mind/Body Dualism | Reasonable Faith

8, Last but not least, Scientific Fact that every cell in our bodies die and regenerate with new cells, that by every 7 years we are completely new material beings. now I know I'm the same person I was in 1998, I'm the same guy who's been through 2 1/2 new material bodies already yet I'm the same mind, therefore it is a Scientific Fact that human beings are Immaterial beings/Spirits controlling material bodies.

"materialism", "atheism", "agnostics", etc are all dead already without even going into "macro-evolution.

Morality.

Morals are Immaterial Properties, under "naturalism" Immaterial wouldn't exist.

Under "naturalism", things such as rape would have no reason for being wrong and could actually be justified.

rape is Objectively Wrong, there is a reason for that. under "naturalism" there is no reason and it would be justified under "naturalism", therefore "naturalism" is fairy tales, Therefore God must Necessarily exist.

"macro-evolution"

"macro-evolution" cannot explain morals.

"macro-evolution" is impossible.

People base an assumption that multiple bouts of Micro-Evolution produces "macro", Micro means within a species. dogs evolving will only ever be, dogs.

Irreducible Complexity,

Heart, lungs, Kidney, Liver, Brain, Veins, Blood, etc take one out and everything fails, must have been given at once.

and

Darwinism Refuted.com

Apparent Design, Symmetry, and Immaterial Properties such as Data(DNA), Immune System, Apparent Design that even "atheist"/"evolutionist" don't deny!(They even say, it "just appears designed", Nothing appears Intelligently Designed Unless, Intelligently Designed, throw that logic in the fire.)

Billions of transitional fossils needed, even if fossils are hard to find as most "atheist" say, I'll allow that excuse, however under that excuse Millions are needed, still aren't a million, "macro-evolution" is false.

"macro-evolution" is incapable with "naturalism", God must exist for "macro-evolution" to happen, therefore "macro-evolution" along with the other evidence didn't happen. therefore advocates for "macro-evolution" cannot be "atheist" and if they are an "atheist"/"naturalist" then they cannot be an advocate of "macro-evolution"

With that said God Factually Exists, and God is The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Time to prepare for Eternity.


Now what proof and evidence is there for "atheism" to be accurate and correct?
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #266 on: December 29, 2012, 07:27:55 PM »

TL;DR

Also posted on another forum.

Just one more thing... were you the original author?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:57:35 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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Ashman618
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« Reply #267 on: December 29, 2012, 07:50:23 PM »

TL;DR

Also posted on another forum.

Were you the original author?

Your a regular Colombo!!! Mad props!!!  Cheesy
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #268 on: December 29, 2012, 07:57:23 PM »

I edited the post just for you  Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #269 on: December 29, 2012, 08:56:02 PM »

TL;DR

Also posted on another forum.

Were you the original author?

Your a regular Colombo!!! Mad props!!!  Cheesy

I got banned from that website. they had a pro-"atheist" attitude and censored me. proving that premartial sex isn't sin(thank you acts420) and that looking at a woman isn't a sin, destroying "atheism", "agnostics", "macro-evolution", "islam", "buddhism", and "calvinism" badly. until I can get an appeal in 6 months from that forum, I'll be on various other forums, catholic forums, and this forum to further Preach The Facts and Truth of Christianity and The Bible.
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