Author Topic: So I don't believe in God...  (Read 31060 times)

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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #180 on: December 15, 2012, 03:47:57 AM »
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On what grounds? YOU are making a claim by accusing a witness of falsehood, back it up. In a court-of-law if you oppose a testimony, then it is your duty to challenge it. I call your bluff.

It's not my responsibility to prove his claim wrong.. Snake salesmanship is not impressive.  He can claim what ever he wants, but it has not credulity just because you can make the claim.. Hey, I met the Pixie fairy lords we talked about earlier..

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That's your own problem as well as the entire problem with empirical Scholasticism; you reduce all evidence down to that which could be measured in a test-tube, when in reality, history and witnesses are just as much evidence as what you could measure in a test-tube. Rather than promoting knowledge, you butcher knowledge by reducing it down to a single aspect and ignoring all of the other elements of knowledge and evidence. It would be like a court-of-law rejecting the testimonies of witnesses and all other forms of evidence and just accepting the forensic element.

Court cases are rarely decisive based on "testimonials".... Testimonial evidence is considered the weakest form of evidence, and all it does in on this board is just represent another absolute negative claim to which doesn't progress establishing anything. There is no reason to take such a claim seriously..

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Jumping to premature conclusions much eh? Rejecting the man before he even makes his testimony?

Feel free to substantiate the existence of GOD..  I know the the Pantheists can establish their GOD to which is existence itself, so should everyone here not start converting to pantheism? After all, What is GOD without existence? And why must you rely on the Pantheist GOD to even have a concept or belief in your GOD regardless if fact or fiction?  Worse yet, the concept of GOD is entirely nothing more than a concept of opinion and title of opinion anyways.. So I don't see you or him converting to pantheism now do I?  

But hey, this is usually a fun thing to do to which includes addressing the problems with the fount of knowledge..:

Paradoxal Atrributes of GOD: Victims of Self-refutation

Worse yet.. there are 3 questions that show why the concept of GOD is moot to which even challenges the Pantheists:

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1. What is GOD without existence (this includes all definitions)
2. If Existence is GOD, what in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to not to consider GOD?
3. If Existence is not GOD, What in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to consider as GOD?

Well, the answers to these show exactly why the concept of GOD is moot:

1. Without Existence, there is no GOD PERIOD!..END OF STORY..  It would be irrelevant, meaningless, pointless, and entirely non-existent..

2. If Existence is GOD, this would effectively make everything GOD as Existence is the totality, quality, essence, property, and the mode of existence of everything.. Everything is of existence itself as existence is the Universal Set of all Sets... And as in question one points out, you can't exist, function, be, or do anything without it.. You can't have any value, purpose, or meaning without existence either..

3. If Existence is not GOD, then there is essentially nothing in or of existence to consider as GOD.. Hence there would actually and technically be no GOD.. And the only possible GOD of existence could only be that of Existence itself.. Hence it's all or nothing! And it's moot regardless of which you choose!..  And that doesn't even go into how opinion alone also makes the concept of GOD moot.  Hence, there is no reason what-so-ever for me to consider anything a GOD..


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You wouldn't understand unless you prepared yourself for it.

This is avoiding the question.. And it's because you know you have no actual reply.. Hence your reply again is another absolute negative and appeal to ignorance.. And it's rather funny that Pantheists don't seem to have this problem.. Your excuse is not impressive or a reason why I should bother to take you seriously.

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Meeting and/or experiencing God is not something that everyone can experience at any time. If you were to experience Him in an unworthy state, it would literally be Hell.

You obviously haven't met the Pixie lords.


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You must prepare yourself first, live the life of the Church, and then hope to behold God. I would suggest following Fr. Thomas Hopko's ten step challenge. But, if you are not willing to make the initial effort, then I am afraid you will not experience anything. And that is because of His mercy upon you--so that you do not experience Hellish pain from His presence in an unworthy state.

Oh, you mean just believe and magically he exists!..That's a nice little Jedi trick. I used to play that game to when I was a Christian.. However, I stopped being that dishonest.. Besides, anything that thinks it's a GOD, is an Ego Centric Narcissist.. And reading the bible it's clearly depicted as such.. And sorry, Narcissism isn't on my high priority list for criteria to consider bowing down to, or worshiping..  

But this is what I can offer, as in something actually plausible.:

1. The gods of ancient religions isn't what you would be looking for.
2 The above does not reject the idea of higher intelligent beings that may be capable of inducing big bangs, or creating life ect.. No need to believe in magic to see that as plausible.. But that would be a matter of opinion for you to consider such as a GOD.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:19:20 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #181 on: December 15, 2012, 04:58:52 AM »
And not one point there is true.
Rather than so blithely dismiss what TheJackel has to say, would you be willing to actually counter his claims with an attempt at a cogent, point-by-point defense of our point of view?

Proverbs 26:5.

Offline LBK

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #182 on: December 15, 2012, 05:02:36 AM »
And not one point there is true.
Rather than so blithely dismiss what TheJackel has to say, would you be willing to actually counter his claims with an attempt at a cogent, point-by-point defense of our point of view?

Proverbs 26:5.

And Matthew 7:6.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #183 on: December 15, 2012, 05:53:34 AM »
Religious Dogmatic replies aren't impressive.. I get that same sort of laughable crap from Flat Earthers to Scientologists. But hey, I have a better proverb, and it's an Egyptian one:

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- There are two kinds of error: blind credulity and piecemeal criticism. Never believe a word without putting its truth to the test; discernment does not grow in laziness; and this faculty of discernment is indispensable to the Seeker. Sound skepticism is the necessary condition for good discernment; but piecemeal criticism is an error. - Book of the Dead

Or maybe you know this fun one:
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- The way of knowledge is narrow.

:)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:04:48 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #184 on: December 15, 2012, 07:04:36 AM »
Wait. So Achronos isn't TheJackel? I've officially lost track of my oc.net historicals here...

Offline Nathanael

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #185 on: December 15, 2012, 09:14:15 AM »
how an atheist became a believer:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/neuroscientist-sees-proof-heaven-week-long-coma/story?id=17555207#.UMxztW_uBFI

For me personally it's interesting how especially atheists, who were former believer, consequently ignore all that supernatural phenomenon, which they experienced or heard of other close people. And when you call their attention to such phenomenon, which really cannot be explained, they just remain silent or laugh at you or they got angry.
It's so sad to see how people instead to worship God they worship their own mind. They believe in the Dogma of rationality, that the whole reality who can only catch with "logical thinking", although there's no proof for that the dogma.  :-[
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:14:58 AM by Nathanael »
OUR TRUE IDENTITY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mgdZZfVUh4

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline Shiny

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #186 on: December 15, 2012, 10:12:47 AM »
Wait. So Achronos isn't TheJackel? I've officially lost track of my oc.net historicals here...
Sent you a PM. Short answer is no.
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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #187 on: December 15, 2012, 12:12:52 PM »
how an atheist became a believer:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/neuroscientist-sees-proof-heaven-week-long-coma/story?id=17555207#.UMxztW_uBFI

For me personally it's interesting how especially atheists, who were former believer, consequently ignore all that supernatural phenomenon, which they experienced or heard of other close people. And when you call their attention to such phenomenon, which really cannot be explained, they just remain silent or laugh at you or they got angry.
It's so sad to see how people instead to worship God they worship their own mind. They believe in the Dogma of rationality, that the whole reality who can only catch with "logical thinking", although there's no proof for that the dogma.  :-[

That is actually full of crap and everyone knows it... But hey, people have supposedly died and gone floating off through space to go see aliens too.  And btw, he has no empirical evidence to say he actually died.. He wasn't even hooked up to an EEG..  But we would love to see anyone empirically prove their case for "supernatural" in scientific peer review literature.. Heck that would be a great Nobel prize..  Feel free to demonstrate and prove something or anything is supernatural phenomenon.. Btw, in a coma, your not brain dead, and it's pretty interesting that is supposed vision corresponds to the culture he grew up in as do most such supposed experiences.. Let me guess, you would now believe alien abductions are real..Right?


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Wait. So Achronos isn't TheJackel? I've officially lost track of my oc.net historicals here...

Ad hominems are not impressive. Are you claiming the cited information is wrong to which I have provided? And if so, what citations do you have concerning those subjects do you have? Are you using a different hieroglyphic dictionary than I am? I would like for you to cite that as well..  But hey, OC.net historicals seem far more supported than blind belief / faith historicals that reject any and all evidence that puts there beliefs / cult religion in to serious question. It is expected that I get these kinds of responses.. Even get the same responses from Flat Earthers who would equally say I am OC.net science educated to try and invalidate any and all evidence provided..  You know the weakest argument is the one that has to sit there and play those sorts of arguments as if they are even relevant..  All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate.. 



« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:20:32 PM by TheJackel »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #188 on: December 15, 2012, 01:10:04 PM »
Ad hominems are not impressive. Are you claiming the cited information is wrong to which I have provided? And if so, what citations do you have concerning those subjects do you have? Are you using a different hieroglyphic dictionary than I am? I would like for you to cite that as well..  But hey, OC.net historicals seem far more supported than blind belief / faith historicals that reject any and all evidence that puts there beliefs / cult religion in to serious question. It is expected that I get these kinds of responses.. Even get the same responses from Flat Earthers who would equally say I am OC.net science educated to try and invalidate any and all evidence provided..  You know the weakest argument is the one that has to sit there and play those sorts of arguments as if they are even relevant..  All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  

What are you talking about dude? :) I thought you were a sock account of another member here. That's all. Achronos let me know that wasn't the case though.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:10:18 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #189 on: December 15, 2012, 01:13:39 PM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate.. 
Are you a pantheist?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Opus118

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #190 on: December 15, 2012, 01:21:22 PM »
Ad hominems are not impressive. Are you claiming the cited information is wrong to which I have provided? And if so, what citations do you have concerning those subjects do you have? Are you using a different hieroglyphic dictionary than I am? I would like for you to cite that as well..  But hey, OC.net historicals seem far more supported than blind belief / faith historicals that reject any and all evidence that puts there beliefs / cult religion in to serious question. It is expected that I get these kinds of responses.. Even get the same responses from Flat Earthers who would equally say I am OC.net science educated to try and invalidate any and all evidence provided..  You know the weakest argument is the one that has to sit there and play those sorts of arguments as if they are even relevant..  All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  

What are you talking about dude? :) I thought you were a sock account of another member here. That's all. Achronos let me know that wasn't the case though.

That was my impression as well.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #191 on: December 15, 2012, 01:44:14 PM »

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Wait. So Achronos isn't TheJackel? I've officially lost track of my oc.net historicals here...

Ad hominems are not impressive. Are you claiming the cited information is wrong to which I have provided?

You provided spurious blog posts full of far-fetched comparisations as sources. Need I say more?

Offline Nathanael

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #192 on: December 15, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »
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That is actually full of crap and everyone knows it... But hey, people have supposedly died and gone floating off through space to go see aliens too.  And btw, he has no empirical evidence to say he actually died.. He wasn't even hooked up to an EEG..  But we would love to see anyone empirically prove their case for "supernatural" in scientific peer review literature.. Heck that would be a great Nobel prize..  Feel free to demonstrate and prove something or anything is supernatural phenomenon.. Btw, in a coma, your not brain dead, and it's pretty interesting that is supposed vision corresponds to the culture he grew up in as do most such supposed experiences.. Let me guess, you would now believe alien abductions are real..Right?

You want really try to compare that with people who experienced alien abductions? ??? Most of such people have psychological, mental or social problems. They're not down-to-earth persons, before they "experienced" that; and you can clearly see that, when you seriously concern yourself with this stuff.

It's not written, that he died or that the brain was completely dead, but: "Brain scans showed his entire cortex -- the parts of the brain that give us consciousness, thought, memory and understanding -- was not functioning. Doctors gave him little chance to live and told his family that if he did survive he'd probably be brain-damaged for the rest of his life." So when the entire cortex was not functioning, how could he experience such deep emotional vision?
And what most impress me is not the vision, but this: "After he recovered, Alexander, who was adopted, was shown a picture by his biological family of a sister he had never met or seen before. He recognized the sister as the young woman from Heaven."!!
And it's better not to start to list close friends who experienced in a sober state miracles in their life. Such miracles don't force man to believe in him, but it makes him quite thoughtful.

How should God create this world (but without that he takes away the free will of man), so that you would believe in him?
OUR TRUE IDENTITY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mgdZZfVUh4

The only way to eternal life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmXuoiIYhf4

The Goal of the Eastern Christian Monk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #193 on: December 15, 2012, 02:53:26 PM »
Don't feed the...

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #194 on: December 15, 2012, 05:05:06 PM »
The only ad hominem attacks I seem to read are from TheJackel.

Cyrillic is right I suspect. (oops, Is that an ad hom?)
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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #195 on: December 15, 2012, 11:22:00 PM »
So here is some more fun research:

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "EL" is with us").. it doesn't say "yahweh" is with us.. No this is the Cannaanite GOD "EL"... Anyone dealing with Yahweh or the moon GOD's are going to have Iah or Ia at the end of their names. Yahwists used Immanuel in Canaanite mythology to equate him with Jesus to which would be entirely wrong..  People that don't comprehend how pantheons that are family structured retain their family and GOD's name in their own names to which includes city names such as Israel.. And nor is Jesus Immanuel..
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"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God is with us)."

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"

Isaiah 7:14 (RSV)


That is essentially a yahwist using the Canaanite mythology.. And you only really need look up the list of Names dealing with the god "EL" as these are not names that deal with Yahweh.. They do not end in Iah or Ia.  If you understand anything at all about family structured Pantheons and religions, you would understand this, and why we know Yahwists usurped the Cannaanite Pantheon and their mythology..  Anyone who's name ended in Iah in that era dealt with being named in regards to the Moon God.. Anyone who's named ended in "el" would have been in regards to the Canaanite GOD "EL". They are two very distinct and separate families / Gods.. El was never a moon GOD either, or associated with Mt Sinai as Yahweh is and was.

Worse yet. Jesus supposed virgin birth belief is like false as well as it seems to use a dual use word to insist it means Virgin when in fact that is not like the intended context as he phrase "a virgin" which we find in our English Bibles does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah {al-maw'} meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is bthuwlah {beth-oo-law'}. When the Hebrew text is translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word parthenos {per-then'-os}, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have mistakenly chosen the latter. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows:
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"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"

And again this has nothing to do with Jesus, and the Cannaanite Prophecy specifically states that his name, this son of EL will be named Immanuel...Not Jesus, or any name dealing with moon GOD's such as Yah, or Sin to where you would have an ending of "Iah / Ia"... It's clearly usurping the El pantheon and mythology here..

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #196 on: December 15, 2012, 11:37:23 PM »
Ad hominems are not impressive. Are you claiming the cited information is wrong to which I have provided? And if so, what citations do you have concerning those subjects do you have? Are you using a different hieroglyphic dictionary than I am? I would like for you to cite that as well..  But hey, OC.net historicals seem far more supported than blind belief / faith historicals that reject any and all evidence that puts there beliefs / cult religion in to serious question. It is expected that I get these kinds of responses.. Even get the same responses from Flat Earthers who would equally say I am OC.net science educated to try and invalidate any and all evidence provided..  You know the weakest argument is the one that has to sit there and play those sorts of arguments as if they are even relevant..  All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  

What are you talking about dude? :) I thought you were a sock account of another member here. That's all. Achronos let me know that wasn't the case though.

Well, then that matter is settled then :)  So if anyone wants to discuss this with me, we can perhaps begin with the citations such as the Jewish encyclopedia, and the Hieroglyphic dictionary to which I have provided.. Can anyone here provide me a citation showing just those first two which I have provided as being wrong?  Hence lets start small here and see whom can provide me a more credible source..   

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #197 on: December 16, 2012, 12:02:00 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense.. But nonsense that really made me realize the concept of GOD is moot as it's all or nothing..  Once you move the goal post to it's far extremes on either end of the field, your realize everyone kicking soccer balls around on the field trying to score.., or it's like watching people fight over favorite colors.. I like to put it in this context to where we substitute Existence for the "Color Spectrum" :

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Theist A to whom is the color orange believes RED is GOD of all colors because RED the hottest Color of them all, represents power, control, and judgement ect..

Theist B to whom is the color brown believes RGB are the GODs of color because of their creative power to blend and create other colors. This theist believe these are the creators of what appears to him / her an RGB world..

Pantheist C whom is the color purple tells Theist A and B that their GODs are not GOD in the sense in which they believe..Pantheist C here state that the entire Spectrum is GOD, and that the Electromagnetic waves and frequencies of this GOD is not only the creator of all colors, but literally all the colors itself.

Then comes along an Atheist D to whom is the color yellow that says he agrees with Pantheist C that A and B are wrong, but also tells Pantheist C that his/her GOD would make Everyone GOD including himself...

That is the perspective I have on this.. And  it doesn't stop people from worshiping X-color in the spectrum or X-god on the soccer field. However, it puts into perspective of what is pretty much going on if you break it down. This is true even if the color doesn't actually exist, a color such as Pink to which is actually just red and blue light as Pink doesn't actually have a frequency and wavelength of its own.  Hence Pink in this cause would be equated to something imagined, an illusion, or defined as a non-entity.  So I see no reason why I should worship anything as a GOD.. You could even put that into further perspective in that we are all "of existence" and that worshiping something else "of Existence" is effectively existence worshiping itself.. And why would existence punish itself for considering itself a GOD? .. It gets pretty weird doesn't it?  

Whats even more interesting is that me any everyone here is essentially existence having a discussion with itself from various conscious perspectives.. So that's ever further reason why I will never consider the concept of god as anything but nonsense..

The only ad hominem attacks I seem to read are from TheJackel.

Cyrillic is right I suspect. (oops, Is that an ad hom?)

You kind of have to provide something other than an absolute negative claim for me to make an ad hominem.. All I did was state what those claims are by the fact you can't demonstrate them, prove them, establish them as fact.. When I ask for you to back up your claims, it doesn't mean provide more absolute negatives :/ You don't get anywhere that way.. And I can't take testimonials seriously for a very good reason, and that is not an ad hominem.  So what else do you have to provide?  If you just say that you believe and that you don't have to provide anything, then that's fine and there is no need for you to engage me or have a discussion on the matter as you can believe in whatever you want to. Just that doesn't establish anything in such discussions here other than your expression of what you believe.  Hence, I am more interested in the actual relevancy to that in regards to reality..  I know the Religion is entirely Pagan in origin, and I am curious why you think your version of it is true while rejecting its foundation from which it was based on at the same time.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:12:19 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #198 on: December 16, 2012, 12:16:05 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2012, 12:33:45 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?

Nothing cant be conscious or support a conscious state. And information can't be made of nothing either as nothing can't contain or sustain information. Physical only pertains to being made of something of existence vs nothing and it doesn't matter if you call it matter or not.  You have to understand the definition of nothing to understand why immateriality is impossible.. However that is at best just a semantics game as it really doesn't matter if you believe in immateriality or materiality as it doesn't change the issue to which I outlined.. The same 3 questions still apply, and so does the matter that the concept of GOD is at best a concept of opinion and title of opinion. It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion. And I don't recall Orthodox Christians being deists.., but even then It's inherently moot, and that is the fundamental and major problem with it.

Now if some cool being induced a big bang and made this world and I got to meet him or her, I would think that would be pretty cool. Some might worship such a being as a GOD, but I would see that as weird and silly giving how I would see that from my perspective. My arguments don't deny the possibility of higher intelligent beings ect.. Hence my arguments are not bound to whether an object of worship exists or not.. I simply wouldn't see it as a god any more than I would see a cow as something divine.. So if I find existence itself as not GOD, there is no hope to have anything of Existence to be considered as such.. And if I did, I realize I would have to consider my self GOD as well, and that's just silly. :/ 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:43:51 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2012, 01:09:09 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2012, 01:30:28 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".

That is without a doubt wrong.. They do not trace back to Abraham.. In fact, you can't find El Shaddai traced back the 3rd milenium, and the GOD EL and Shaddai emerged through different paths entirely. And you wont find the Egyptian GOD Yah, or the Egyptian GOD's at all traced back to Abraham either.. Your claim is erroneous in that respect. But yes Christianity is entirely Pagan, and it comes from it's polytheistic mythological roots to which includes much of it from the Egyptians. It's not any less of a myth in usupred monotheistic form than the polytheism it came from..  Please also give us citation showing religion itself evolving out of the Ammorite GOD Shaddai... No? How about Yahweh? No? .. Sorry I can't take that argument seriously.. 

And as far as mainstream anthropology and archeology is concerned, religion evolved out of Africa that came up through the Nile and out through Egypt ect..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:34:13 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Aindriú

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2012, 01:32:12 AM »
Tell us about Elohim.

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Offline Jetavan

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2012, 01:35:02 AM »
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?

I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".

Wrong.. They do not trace back to Abraham lol.. In fact, you can't find El Shaddai traced back the 3rd milenium, and the GOD EL and Shaddai emerged through different paths entirely. And you wont find the Egyptian GOD Yah, or the Egyptian GOD's at all traced back to Abraham either.. Your claim is erroneous in that respect. But yes Christianity is entirely Pagan, and it comes from it's polytheistic mythological roots. It's not any less of a myth in usupred monotheistic form and than the polytheism..  Please also give us citation showing religion itself evolving out of the Ammorite GOD Shaddai... No? How about Yahweh? No? .. Sorry I can't take that argument seriously..
Would you not agree that these three religions trace themselves back to Abraham: that is (whether it is historically accurate or not), these three religions see themselves as originating, in a deep sense, with Abraham, that Abraham is a founding figure in their theologies?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:35:14 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2012, 02:05:08 AM »
Tell us about Elohim.

That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.

Quote
 The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim".

You won't find that term used outside the EL pantheon unless it's being usurped, or when someone is trying to equate their deity to that of "EL", or as one of the sons of "EL". And "EL" predates the god of Abraham and goes all the way back to the Eblas in the 3rd millennium.... And there is a link between EL and the Egyptian GOD Ptah..

http://books.google.com/books?id=bJqwWRDOMgEC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=Canaanite+EL+linked+to+the+Egyptian+god+Ptah&source=bl&ots=fdbOk5_JJV&sig=z4JrPPyQ99dLSelVhTT4QQSJiTA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tWDNUMLOLMrN0AGhw4GYBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Canaanite%20EL%20linked%20to%20the%20Egyptian%20god%20Ptah&f=false

Also supported here:
Quote

    A proto-Sinaitic mine inscription reads ʼlḏ‘lm understood to be vocalized as ʼil ḏū ‘ôlmi, 'ʼĒl Eternal' or 'God Eternal'. The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title ḏū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title ḏū gitti is also found in Serābitṭ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of ʼĒl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to ʼĒl so early and so consistently.[1]

       ^ Wyatt 2002, p. 43.


It's also important to note that Ptah was not Yah, or Yahweh as separete deities.. Ptah was not a moon GOD. However, if anything, it would traced back to the Egyptians and not Abraham.. If anything, Abraham merely jumped on the bandwagon regardless if he was a fictional or real historical figure.. It doesn't begin with "Abraham" if you go by the real world, main stream anthropology, Egyptology, and archeology ect..  
 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 02:21:12 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Aindriú

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2012, 02:19:39 AM »
Tell us about Elohim.

That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.

Elohim is the word used by Moses to describe God in the Pentateuch, specifically Genesis. Why then would we expect 'Abraham' to use YHWH when Moses, as the narrator, uses Elohim?

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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2012, 03:24:27 AM »
Tell us about Elohim.

That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.

Elohim is the word used by Moses to describe God in the Pentateuch, specifically Genesis. Why then would we expect 'Abraham' to use YHWH when Moses, as the narrator, uses Elohim?

So what. We already know the Yahwist cult movement was attempting to usurp the Canaanite Pantheon.. Of course he's going to use it.. And Mosses btw is an Egyptian name. And you won't find Abraham mentioning Yahweh in Genesis.. It's interesting that Yahweh doesn't show up until Exodus.. And we also must remember that the bible was never actually a book. .. You do realize the bible has been heavily edited right?  I gave you one example regarding the dead sea scrolls vs the Duet.. The only way the bible makes sense is if you look at the common practice of usurping...  You can't take the bible to which has been edited to no end as your main source for this subject.  This is why I provided many other sources regarding the subject and Yahweh.  Yahweh and EL are entirely different GODS entirely..  Yawhists equated Yahweh to EL in order to usurp EL.. There is even further evidence of this here:

Giving the Evidence of Yahweh being a moon GOD deriving likely originally from the Egyptian moon GOD YAH, lets begin with the direct evidence of Yahweh being equated with EL in regards to EL's wife Asherah and then move on from there.: Asherah:

* http://www.scribd.com/doc/36144940/Asherah-Consort-of-Yahweh-New-Evidence-From-Kuntillet-Ajrud * http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1357073?uid=3739696&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101168053907

Abstract:
Quote
    Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh. For from his enemies by his Asherah he has saved him.

Well, we know for a fact that Asherah was EL's wife, and that the Israelite / Canaanites worshiped them as king and queen of heaven. They had a special love for Ahserah. Odd indeed to see Yahweh with EL's wife, but we may yet unravel that mystery here as the evidence suggests in this already long discussion. This was during when strict yahwists started to have strong influence, and where Yahwism considered all other GODs as false idols to which included Asherah. And they needed to find a means to replace these GOD's, so the classic method typical of taking ones wife is through the conquering and the taking over another mans house hold.  You see this very example in the mythology and even when mosses tells his men to take the women of those he conquered for their wives. This is common in the history of how usurping a GOD, and appears this was used to equate Yahweh with EL.  Professor Bill Dever, discusses archaeological evidence for Asherah as the consort of Yahweh:
Quote
    Asherah was, of course, finally driven underground by the reformist parties that :edited the Hebrew Bible. In its final form she is written out of the text. Hence, she :disappeared and all her cult imagery with her when Jewish monotheism at last :triumphed in the period after the Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile. :But Asherah was once alive and well; modern archaeology has in fact resurrected :her. Her "houses," now vacant, were once occupied. Here she was "at home" for :many of the masses in ancient Israel.

- William Dever -

And of course this citation here if you need it:
Quote
    Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):[11]

    "Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [12]

    "... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..."[13]

    ^ William G. Dever, "Did God Have a Wife?" (Eerdmans, ISBN 0-8028-2852-3,2005) - see reviews of this book by Patrick D. Miller, Yairah Amit.
    ^ Jeremiah 7:17–18
    ^ Jeremiah 44:17

It gets worse because "EL" was actually never a generic term for "GOD".. It was always in reference to the Canaanite Pantheon family of the GOD EL and his sons.. Any use of of EL is in direct relation to EL himself and his sons. And where Christians, and wickipedia get the assertion that it
Quote
"could have been a generic term"
was from this Christian apologetic source:
Quote
    ^Barrs, Jerram (Spring 2006). http://covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/CC310/CC310_T_21.html">"Audio Transcription for Lesson 21: Apologetics & Communication" (PDF, 0.1 MB).

    Abstract:
    El or Elohim, God, the Mighty One, the Great One, could be used of any of the other gods worshipped by the people around Israel. It could be used of Baal or of Moloch.

Now we know how dishonest Christian apologetics are, and this falls right into it because nowhere is "EL" ever used outside the Canaanite/Israelite family Pantheon.. You must remember this is a family structured Pantheon.. And Baal and Moloch are apart of the Canaanite Pantheon as sons of EL.  Using EL's name in generic form by the Cannanites / Israelites would have been using their GOD's name in vain, or anyone else using it in that context would be to try and usurp him and gain his power or power over him. Hence, that name was NEVER used in generic format until the Yahwists began to usurp the pantheon! The source above can not list "EL" in conjunction with GOD's that were not of the El Pantheon, and he knows it..

The Oxford Companion to World Mythology states:


Quote
If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE. (See 2 Kings 23:15)".

^ Leeming, David (2005). The Oxford Companion to World Mythology. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. 118. ISBN 978-0-19-515669-0. LCCN 2005014216. OCLC 60492027.

Well, we know that Abraham only merely made EL Shaddai his Elohim, and that hes was and Amorite. Yahweh as state before had nothing to do with El Shaddai and Abraham was not a Yahwist, and nor did he worship a moon god.. So the Question remains as to why is Yahweh being equated to the Canaanite GOD EL, and usurping the entire Pantheon into his persona? The following really shows merit of this question:

Quote
    Before El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, it is said in Genesis 14:18–20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon blessed him.[19] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl.

    ^Coogan, Michael David (2009). A Brief Introduction to the Old Testament. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. 74. ISBN 978-0-19-533272-8. LCCN 2008034190. OCLC 243545942.

And we now know that when trace the origin of Yahweh back to the Egyptian moon GOD, and the Sumerian mood god to which they likely also usurped.. So unless you can show the Dictionary I provided and the evidence provided to be wrong, It's quite clear of the usurping of the EL Pantheon. But I have other sources that back me up:

And we of course have these sources as well to which back up much of what I already discussed above:
Quote

    Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan, and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit. In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the Divine Council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children or "stars of El" (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the "angels" of the Hebrew Bible.

Between the eighth to the sixth centuries El became identified with Yahweh, Yahweh-El became the husband of the goddess Asherah, and the other gods and the divine messengers gradually became mere expressions of Yahweh's power. Yahweh is cast in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities, as in Psalm 29:2, where the "sons of God" are called upon to worship Yahweh; and as Ezekiel 8-10 suggests, the Temple itself became Yahweh's palace, populated by those in his retinue.

 ^ a b Karel van der Toorn, editor, "Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible" (second edition, Eerdmans, 1999)
 ^ Robert Karl Gnuse, "No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel" (Sheffield Academic Press, 1997)
^ Meindert Dijkstra, "El the God of Israel, Israel the People of YHWH: On the Origins of Ancient Israelite Yahwism" (in "Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah", ed. Bob Becking, Sheffield Academic Press, 2001)
^ Meindert Djikstra, "I have Blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah: Texts with Religious Elements from the Soil Archive of Ancient Israel" (in "Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah", ed. Bob Beckering, Sheffield Academic Press, 2001)
^ Karel van der Toorn, "Goddesses in Early Israelite Religion in Ancient Goddesses: the Myths and the Evidence" (editors Lucy Goodison and Christine Morris, University of Wisconsin Press, 1998)


Offline biro

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #207 on: December 16, 2012, 03:35:44 AM »
 ::)

So this is where all those bad specials on the History Channel come from?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Aindriú

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #208 on: December 16, 2012, 04:05:34 AM »
It's like watching a ping pong ball knock every pan off the counter. Lots on nonsense and unrelated tangents.

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #209 on: December 16, 2012, 05:29:51 AM »
EVERYTHING in the Bible has a hidden, pagan meaning. At least, that's what the Zeitgeist missionaries want you to believe.

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #210 on: December 16, 2012, 08:23:52 AM »
::)

So this is where all those bad specials on the History Channel come from?

Sorry, Egyptologists like William Dever are not where you get bad History channel documentaries from.  How about you actually provide an actual argument with citation.. Oh that's right, we can't expect you to do that anymore then asking a Flat Earther to give us a navigable with an accurate coordinate system and scale.. It's like trying to pull your own tooth out with a wrench because you aren't interested in honest discourse. But hey, if it makes you feel better to need that sort of dishonest argument to keep the pillars of faith standing.. After all, reality denial is pretty typical behavior when dealing with religion, or cults ect. .. But in this discussion, your comment is essentially worthless academically...

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #211 on: December 16, 2012, 08:43:43 AM »
I shouldn't really be commenting in this troll thread, but I'll just leave this here:

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. (Jeremiah 7:17-18)"

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:48:01 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #212 on: December 16, 2012, 08:47:45 AM »
EVERYTHING in the Bible has a hidden, pagan meaning. At least, that's what the Zeitgeist missionaries want you to believe.

This has nothing to do with Zeitgeist.  This is just stating facts about your religion.. Feel free to cite me a Hebrew and hieroglyphic dictionary that proves otherwise for starters.. Now that would be impressive vs trying to tag this to some zeitgeist.  Btw, zeitgeist here is a false equivocation, and you would literally need to paint mainstream archeology, anthropology, or even Egyptology as some sort conspiracy while being entirely and woefully ignorant of the dynamics of ancient religion and how culturally intertwined that region of the world was.   But feel free to provide me sources and citations..  

Btw, zeitgeist is specifically about this:

Quote
Hegel believed that art reflected, by its very nature, the time of the culture in which it is created. Culture and art are inextricable because an individual artist is a product of his or her time and therefore brings that culture to any given work of art. Furthermore, he believed that in the modern world it was impossible to produce classical art, which he believed represented a "free and ethical culture"

If I were to have made that argument, I would have told you Christianity could never develop, or that classical art in the modern world would be impossible to produce. I've made no such argument. And there are a lot of things wrong in the Zeitgeist movies. However, This isn't about creativity, or art ect.. This is about what we know about the history of your religion..  However the writers of the bible weren't exactly original in their writings, beliefs, oral traditions ect.. But that doesn't prevent them from making classical art or influencing the continued development of..

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #213 on: December 16, 2012, 08:57:31 AM »

Quote
1. What is GOD without existence (this includes all definitions)
2. If Existence is GOD, what in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to not to consider GOD?
3. If Existence is not GOD, What in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to consider as GOD?

God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #214 on: December 16, 2012, 08:58:22 AM »
I shouldn't really be commenting in this troll thread, but I'll just leave this here:

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. (Jeremiah 7:17-18)"

Quote
"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.  (Jeremiah 7:17-18)

Again not unexpected when dealing with a yahwist monotheistic movement.. The Nova broadcast NOVA: The Bible's Buried Secrets at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/bibles-buried-secrets.html

was an amalgamation of the components that are described at:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/

which is also noted in the book "No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel Page 82" to which on the same page also states Yahweh was equated with "EL".. And that had to be done to become GOD of Israel, and the book goes even much deeper into the process of usurping the Pantheon into the persona of Yahweh. And if you don't know, that book is written by
Quote
   Robert Gnuse is the James C. Carter, S.J./Bank One Distinguished Professor of the Humanities in the Religious Studies Department. He received his Ph.D. from Vanderbilt University in the area of Old Testament, and he is the author of 12 books and approximately 80 articles in the field of biblical studies.

 And who cites Henry William Frederick Saggs:
Quote
   PhD degree by the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in 1953 and became Lecturer in Akkadian. By the mid-1960s, Saggs's many publications on Akkadian texts, combined with his skill in other Semitic languages made him one of the leading international scholars in the field. He was asked in 1966 to take the Chair of Semitic Languages in University College, Cardiff and was Professor from 1966 to 198


Offline Cyrillic

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #215 on: December 16, 2012, 09:00:39 AM »
It's quite obvious that Judaism was always monotheistic but that some Jews adopted heathenish practices from the people around them which the prophets condemned. Even pagan historians like Tacitus wrote that Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 09:01:24 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Shiny

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2012, 09:04:25 AM »
Information is my GOD. With information overlord I am able to connect with my GOD by infosis.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2012, 09:05:49 AM »
Quote

God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.

You can't claim something is above existence while trying to beg everyone it's in and of existence, or exists.. It's an incoherent argument.. But hey if you think it's silly syllogism, show us a god without needing existence as that should be a fun exercise lol.  It's as dumb of an argument as saying GOD is out side existence, and well Atheists agree that your GOD is not in existence. Trying to defect to the other side of the debate to try and win the debate is hilariously a bad argument.. You can believe that if you want to, but any atheist is going to serious laugh at that argument.. You might want to look up what a self-refuting argument is..  You can't even have a religion, or even the idea of the concept of GOD without existence.

Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2012, 09:16:38 AM »
It's quite obvious that Judaism was always monotheistic but that some Jews adopted heathenish practices from the people around them which the prophets condemned. Even pagan historians like Tacitus wrote that Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning.

Judaism comes from the yahwist cult movement but your claim is erroneous.. And not all Yahwists were monotheistic as the worship of Asherah as Yahweh's consort continued on for quite some time. So you're wrong.. Early Judaism simply made Yahweh their main GOD of worship, but a good number of them were still polytheistic. You can say Judaism as it is today was forged from strict yahwist monotheism that usurped the Canaanite Pantheon. Howev strict monotheistic Yahwism almost went extinct until the Second Isaiah. If it wasn't for the second Isaih and that movement, Judaism probably wouldn't even exist today.   It's a lot more complicated that you think it is.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 09:27:51 AM by TheJackel »

Offline Ashman618

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2012, 10:23:19 AM »
There's no possible way that I could read this entire three from the beginning, and there's no way I could read all the information that you have provided, but from what I have seen I can't tell that anything provided has anything to do with the Christian Faith? Is there something I'm missing?

Offline theistgal

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2012, 12:32:35 PM »
Quote

God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.

You can't claim something is above existence while trying to beg everyone it's in and of existence, or exists.. It's an incoherent argument.. But hey if you think it's silly syllogism, show us a god without needing existence as that should be a fun exercise lol.  It's as dumb of an argument as saying GOD is out side existence, and well Atheists agree that your GOD is not in existence. Trying to defect to the other side of the debate to try and win the debate is hilariously a bad argument.. You can believe that if you want to, but any atheist is going to serious laugh at that argument.. You might want to look up what a self-refuting argument is..  You can't even have a religion, or even the idea of the concept of GOD without existence.

God is not "outside existence". God is the BASIS for all existence. God IS existence itself. That's why our ideas about God tend to ultimately be somewhat incoherent. The closer you are to someone, the harder it is to see them clearly. (Imagine a child in the womb, trying to describe her mother.)

Also, perhaps you could not start every post with "Sorry, you're wrong", which kinda makes it seem like you're not really looking for a dialogue.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:36:27 PM by theistgal »
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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #221 on: December 16, 2012, 12:35:46 PM »
Quote

God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.

You can't claim something is above existence while trying to beg everyone it's in and of existence, or exists.. It's an incoherent argument.. But hey if you think it's silly syllogism, show us a god without needing existence as that should be a fun exercise lol.  It's as dumb of an argument as saying GOD is out side existence, and well Atheists agree that your GOD is not in existence. Trying to defect to the other side of the debate to try and win the debate is hilariously a bad argument.. You can believe that if you want to, but any atheist is going to serious laugh at that argument.. You might want to look up what a self-refuting argument is..  You can't even have a religion, or even the idea of the concept of GOD without existence.

God is not "outside existence". God is the BASIS for all existence. God IS existence. That's why our ideas about God tend to ultimately be somewhat incoherent. The closer you are to someone, the harder it is to see them clearly.

God is the Creator of existence. He's not identical with His creation but is infinitely above it. At least, that's how I understand it. From St. Dionysius' Mystical Theology:

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For this I pray; and, Timothy, my friend, my advice to you as you look for a sight of the mysterious things, is to leave behind you everything perceived and understood, everything perceptible and understandable, all that is not and all that is and unknowingly strive upward as much as you can toward union with Him who is beyond all being and knowledge.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:38:50 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #222 on: December 16, 2012, 05:48:34 PM »
Jackel, I notice you haven't said one word to address my request that you comment on the veracity of our accounts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Offline TheJackel

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #223 on: December 16, 2012, 08:23:34 PM »
Jackel, I notice you haven't said one word to address my request that you comment on the veracity of our accounts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you have any contemporary records of said accounts? Supposed 500 people that are as magically non-existent as the character Jesus.. Hey, I have 5,000 witnesses to the Pixie Lords when I was 20 years old.  Thing is veracity of accounts is not determined by unsupported claims. It's pretty interesting that Jesus was essentially non-existent until after the popularity of the Gospels grew.. And Gospels are not contemporary records, or direct evidence of the existence of Jesus, or the resurrection of any more than the book "Harry Potter" is of the existence of wizards with magical wands flying around on broom sticks..

It gets much worse however as we actually evaluate Jesus.. So lets go over some very important details here:

The Jewish Messiah

*Messiah: The Criteria
*The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
*Jewish Belief in Messiah and the Messianic Age
*What are the criteria that Judaism has established about the messiah?

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http://jewsforjudaism.org.au/resources/articles/short-responses/a-two-minute-counter-missionary-crash-course/

http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html

http://jewsforjudaism.org.au/

And what about "The Suffering Servant of Isaiah?

While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

But moving on from those issues alone to which includes the very problem in dealing with the Canaanite prophecy of Immanuel, we have all of following to consider when trying to address the historical veracity of Jesus.., and I will put these into "Parts" so we can follow along.. :

Part 1:

We can start by understanding the Copts, and what their connection to Egyptian mythology is. This includes some fun little pictures:

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The Copts being one of the oldest sects of Christians that heavily took from the Egyptians. The term “Copt,” meaning “Egyptian,” comes from the Latinized term Coptus, from the Arabic Qubt, which is in turn a form of the Greek word Aigyptos. The Greek word originated with the Egyptian term Hikaptah, or “House of Ptah,” or the “Temple of Ptah,” one of the names for Memphis, the first capital of ancient Egypt. Egypt holds a high place in the history of Christianity. the monastic life of Christians developed in Egypt, and hundreds of monasteries were built in the Egyptian desert, and as well as literally thousands more monastic cells and caves scattered throughout the Egyptian hills. You can also see that many of the desert monasteries of the 4th century A.D. are still in use today. Christian monasticism literally developed in Egypt..

And it's why we know Christianity took a lot from the Egyptians themselves as I have already demonstrated in a more visual presentation;

Quote
: http://www.whale.to/c/ev219twtoroboros.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/954qoyfhcatholictriad.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/8vguxme7cross.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/church2.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/church21.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.36.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_38.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/church35.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/church64.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_51.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/church41.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.68.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_43.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_44.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_45.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_46.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_47.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_49.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/1i5nd3xt.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.69.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.73.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.74.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.5.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/b/false_67.jpg
: http://www.whale.to/c/ev219twtoroboros.jpg
 

 However, that is just a tip of the Ice burg.. Hence, does the Book of the Dead is saying something similar to Christianity? Well it does.. And it even gets more obvious:

Quote
http://www.150.si.edu/150trav/remember/r118a.jpg
Funerary objects attest to ancient Egyptians' sense of the continuity of life through death and beyond. This includes the funerary stela Egyptians placed stele in tombs to ensure the availability of the necessities that a person's ka, or soul, would use in the afterlife. Courtesy of the National Museum of Natural History, presented as a Bicentennial Gift to the American People by the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, July 1976

It's a well known fact that Christianity gets much of what it is as a religion from the Egyptians. Even the Greeks and others used it.. Though we get the term Stela from the Greeks, the concept from the Egyptians. And then you have this, a question scholars are now looking deeper into:
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he Merneptah Stele: Earliest evidence for Israel in Canaan?

‘The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, bears the oldest known written reference to Israel. Engraved with its current text in 1207 B.C.E., the 7.5-foot-high, black granite monolith was discovered in the ruins of Merneptah’s funerary temple in western Thebes in 1896. Most of its hieroglyphic text celebrates Merneptah’s defeat of the Libyans and their Sea Peoples allies in his fifth regnal year. The text’s last three lines, however, briefly mention a campaign into Canaan against the background of a pacified eastern Mediterranean political situation: “The rulers lie prostrate saying ‘Peace’; none raises his head among the Nine Bows [Egypt’s traditional enemies, by now a literary convention]. Plundering is for Tehenu [Libya]. Hatti is at peace. Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe. Ashkelon has been overcome. Gezer has been captured. Yano’am was made non-existent. Israel is laid waste, (and) his seed is not. Hurru [Canaan] is become a widow for Egypt. All lands are united in peace.” The mention of Israel appears slightly to the left of center in the second line from the bottom. The glyphs include determinatives—signs indicating a word’s category—that classify Ashkelon, Gezer and Yano’am as city-states; but the determinative attached to Israel identifies it as a people, apparently not yet possessing a distinct city.’, Shanks, ‘Questions & Comments’, Biblical Archaeology Review (17.06), November/December 1991.

‘Merneptah stele (ca 1225 B.C.) obviously establishes the people of Israel in Palestine and shows that they were known by that name in the 13th century. (Though some see here instead a reference to Jezreel, rather than Israel, the reading ya-si-r-˒i-ra seems clearly to indicate Israel; see W. F. Albright, Vocalization of the Egyptian Syllabic Orthography [1934], p. 34.)’,

Part 2:

The name Christ wasn't just used in reference to Jesus.. It was reference to a Messiah or king that leads the Hebrews:

Quote
In the Hebrew Bible a messiah (or mashiach) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[1] However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish kings, and the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah. Following the death of Simon bar Kokhba, a messiah came to be a Jewish king who would rule at the end of history. In later Jewish messianic tradition and eschatology, a messiah is a leader anointed by God, and in some cases, a future King of Israel, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel[2] and herald the Messianic Age[3] of global peace.
 
 The translation of the Hebrew word Mašíaḥ as Χριστός(Khristós) in the Greek Septuagint[4] became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe that prophecies in the Hebrew Bible (especially Isaiah) refer to a spiritual savior and believe Jesus to be that Messiah (Christ).

And that includes the problem in dealing with that Immanuel is not Jesus.. But it goes deeper into the Egyptian religion surrounding Horus than most people realize when dealing with other aspects of Jesus as this concept does not begin with the Hebrews, it's found rooted in the Egyptian religion. As Messiah literally means "anointed king":

Quote
In several temple reliefs in Ancient Egypt the Pharaoh is depicted being anointed by Horus (sun god and "father" of Pharaoh) and Thoth (god of wisdom), the oil of which is symbolically depicted as a stream of ankhs (symbols of life). Also, especially from the New Kingdom onward, anointing is often depicted in intimate scenes between husband and wife, where the wife is shown anointing her spouse, as a sign of affection. The most famous example of this is on the
 
 throne of Tutankhamun.
 
 
 Most famously in Pharaonic Egypt, preparation for burial included anointing human remains with sweet-smelling oils in devotion as well with the practical intent of obscuring the stench of death. In sealing a coffin a ritual, final anointing of the mummy was observed.

This is fundamentally Egyptian rituals and beliefs in origin to which many others such as Christianity had taken into practice. The Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt were said to be incarnations of the gods Horus and Ra. This concept again is largely Egyptian in origin, and one that Christianity has heavily taken from:
Quote
The first real king of Egypt, therefore ruling over the unified land, was Menes, who would have ruled Egypt around 3100 BC, but we have little if any archaeological basis for this name. Most scholars today believe that he may have been a king named Narmer, or more likely still, Aha,  two figures that are better attested in the archaeological record.  Kings were not only males, and unlike in modern monarchies, the ruler of ancient Egypt, whether male or female, was always called a king. In fact, Egypt had some very noteworthy female rulers such as Hatshepsut and others. In many if not most accounts, the king is viewed as an incarnation of Horus, a falcon god, and the posthumous son of Osiris,
 
 The king himself was the figure upon whom the whole administrative structure of the state rested. This god-king usually commanded tremendous resources. The Pharaoh was the head of the civil administration, the supreme warlord and the chief priest of every god in the kingdom. All offerings were made in his name and the entire priesthood acted in his stead. In fact, he was himself a divine being, considered the physical offspring of a god

Jesus is even referred to as the "KING" and offspring of GOD, or as King of Kings just as were Kings of Egypt. And such Pharaohs were also buried with thorn olive branches, and sometimes olive branch crowns to mark them as Kings, and express the sorrow of their deaths while representing eternal life after death..Hence to the Egyptians, It was to express sorrow, peace, eternal life, purification, and everlasting power. This very exact same concept used in Christianity with exactly the same purpose and meaning that is applied in the death of Jesus.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:48:26 PM by TheJackel »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: So I don't believe in God...
« Reply #224 on: December 16, 2012, 08:36:10 PM »
Jackel, I notice you haven't said one word to address my request that you comment on the veracity of our accounts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you have any contemporary records of said accounts? Supposed 500 people that are as magically non-existent as the character Jesus.. Hey, I have 5,000 witnesses to the Pixie Lords when I was 20 years old.  Thing is veracity of accounts is not determined by unsupported claims. It's pretty interesting that Jesus was essentially non-existent until after the popularity of the Gospels grew.. And Gospels are not contemporary records, or direct evidence of the existence of Jesus, or the resurrection of any more than the book "Harry Potter" is of the existence of wizards with magical wands flying around on broom sticks..
Okay, I'll take your defiant dodge and dismiss move under advisement that you don't want to be taken seriously. You might actually engage us in a more decent argument if you weren't so damn haughty and condescending.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:39:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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