OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 03:25:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Christ eternally crucified?  (Read 766 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,131



« on: July 03, 2011, 04:05:58 PM »

The following is a video from the current president of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (LCMS), Pr. Matthew Harrison.  Pr. Harrison is very much what people would call a "confessional" LCMS pastor and was promoted by many in the LCMS as a breath of fresh air from the previous president who was a Baptist in disguise.   However, in this little video, where he is discussing church art, he talks about the importance of the crucifix on the altar because they preach "Christ crucified."  I have no problem with this, but then he makes a very disturbing comment saying that Christ is "eternally crucified."  I was shocked to hear this.  Either he misspoke, was trying to render Greek into understandable English (and doing a poor job of it) or he was completely intentional. If his choice of words was intentional, how can this be preached?  As a former Lutheran, I was taught that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was once and for all to deliver mankind from his sins.  This choice of language would almost make that one time event in vain suggesting that Christ needs to be recrucified daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc.  And then, how does the resurrection fit in?  IF the Resurrection destroyed death, then how can/should Christ be recrucified?  This comment strikes me as scandalous and very much an affront to the basic teachings and dogma of Christianity, whether Orthodox or not.  The video so you can see his comments in context is below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lizfznY63Yk
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,131



« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 08:53:02 PM »

BUMP.  Anyone got some ideas on this one? Thanks.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 10:02:57 PM »

Well, the Bible says the Lamb was, "slain before the foundations of the earth." If the efficacy of the Cross reverberates throughout time such that it can be "reaccessed" in the Eucharist, the it doesn't seem like "eternally crucified" is that big a stretch. Too confusing a word choice, perhaps but still acceptable.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 10:11:57 PM »

I have on numerous occasions found myself defending the position that the Divine Liturgy is a sacrifice. Protestants often say, "Christ was crucified once for all, why do you all crucify him again and again?"

This is not the right way to look at the Mass/Litugy as a sacrifice. Christ was slain once for all, but it is an eternal event. I like the way Swiss Reformed theologian Karl Barth said it: "The crucifixion is an eternal event that occurred within history." Christ is never recrucified, but we enter into that same crucifixion eternally, truly and mystically at each Eucharistic Liturgy.

And so, I don't have a problem with what Pr. Harrison is saying, if it is understood as a "once for all, eternally" and not "recrucified." As the priest recites at the fraction of the Lamb, "Broken and divided is the Lamb of God, which is broken and not disunited, which is ever eaten and never consumed, but sanctifieth those that partake thereof."
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 10:16:23 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,131



« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 10:40:13 PM »

"The crucifixion is an eternal event that occurred within history." Christ is never recrucified, but we enter into that same crucifixion eternally, truly and mystically at each Eucharistic Liturgy.

Yes, the event is re-presented to us in the Divine Liturgy.  But the Crucifixion was still one event. It is not carried on as a constant.  His word choice really bothers me because as much as I think the theologia crucis of the modern day LCMS goes way off the deep end, especially in its entire focus on satisfactional and penal atonement, this takes it even further off the cliff.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,651


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 11:20:13 PM »

"The crucifixion is an eternal event that occurred within history." Christ is never recrucified, but we enter into that same crucifixion eternally, truly and mystically at each Eucharistic Liturgy.

Yes, the event is re-presented to us in the Divine Liturgy.  But the Crucifixion was still one event. It is not carried on as a constant.  His word choice really bothers me because as much as I think the theologia crucis of the modern day LCMS goes way off the deep end, especially in its entire focus on satisfactional and penal atonement, this takes it even further off the cliff.
I think you may have misquoted Dr. Harrison. He did say (at about 1:55-2:05 in the video) that Jesus "remains forever the crucified one", but I never heard him speak of Jesus as "eternally crucified", as you so quote him. Even more telling is the end of that statement: "He remains forever the Crucified One, Who is also risen."
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 11:28:04 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 01:29:10 AM »

This choice of language would almost make that one time event in vain suggesting that Christ needs to be recrucified daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc.

That's not what eternal means. Eternal means something more along the lines of timeless than forever.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 01:30:45 AM »

Well, the Bible says the Lamb was, "slain before the foundations of the earth."

Not necessarily. The phrasing of that passage from Revelation has two possibilities for what "before the foundations of the earth" could be referring to.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 02:06:53 AM »

Well, the Bible says the Lamb was, "slain before the foundations of the earth."

Not necessarily. The phrasing of that passage from Revelation has two possibilities for what "before the foundations of the earth" could be referring to.
Ok.
Logged
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 01:10:11 PM »

Ask J.M.C, he explained this to me really good.

That Christ was crucified one time event but that when the Eucharist is taken then in the mystery (that is that whole sacrament), you are kind of AT that one time event while you are taking the Eucharist in that moment. So Jesus isn't recrucified over again but that it happened once and that you connect to it via the mystery of the sacrament.

He will say if i understood him properly or if i have even understood what the OP is asking lolOl ignore my post if i haven't.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 02:03:07 PM »

"The crucifixion is an eternal event that occurred within history." Christ is never recrucified, but we enter into that same crucifixion eternally, truly and mystically at each Eucharistic Liturgy.

Yes, the event is re-presented to us in the Divine Liturgy.  But the Crucifixion was still one event. It is not carried on as a constant.  His word choice really bothers me because as much as I think the theologia crucis of the modern day LCMS goes way off the deep end, especially in its entire focus on satisfactional and penal atonement, this takes it even further off the cliff.

It is one event, but it is one event that is eternal. I believe referring to it as "timeless," like deusveritasest said, it a good understanding. Christ is eternally crucified, once for all, but we enter into that same event each time we encounter Christ in the Liturgy. So we partake of that one sacrifice again and again at different times. So it is a single event that we continually return to at each Liturgy.

There's a reason this is called a "mystery."
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 02:03:45 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,254


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 02:04:35 PM »

"The crucifixion is an eternal event that occurred within history." Christ is never recrucified, but we enter into that same crucifixion eternally, truly and mystically at each Eucharistic Liturgy.

Yes, the event is re-presented to us in the Divine Liturgy.  But the Crucifixion was still one event. It is not carried on as a constant.  His word choice really bothers me because as much as I think the theologia crucis of the modern day LCMS goes way off the deep end, especially in its entire focus on satisfactional and penal atonement, this takes it even further off the cliff.

It is one event, but it is one event that is eternal. I believe referring to it as "timeless," like deusveritasest said, it a good understanding. Christ is eternally crucified, once for all, but we enter into that same event each time we encounter Christ in the Liturgy. So we partake of that one sacrifice again and again at different times. So it is a single event that we continually return to at each Liturgy.

There's a reason this is called a "mystery."
Good stuff.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.069 seconds with 41 queries.