Topic: The 8 Marks of a Mind-Control Cult (EO as a Cult)...

[Dnarmist]

I was looking up Counsels from the Holy Mountain, and came across this link:
http://pseudo-prophet.tripod.com/eightmarks.html

In Releasing the Bonds (page 34) by Dr. Steven Hassan, an excerpt of Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's 8 Criteria of Mind Control is given. I have paired these 8 criteria with examples from my own situation while involved with St. Anthony's Monastery, an Eastern Orthodox group I believe is a destructive cult, so that those unfamiliar with Orthodox cults can understand how they conform to this criteria.


"My counselors pointed out that no matter how wonderful the cause, or how attractive the members, if any group employed all eight of Robert Jay Lifton's elements, then it was operating as mind control environment."
Dr. Steven Hassan, Combatting Cult Mind Control, page 53 (emphasis added)


The rest of this article can be read here:  http://pseudo-prophet.tripod.com/eightmarks.html

Post truncated to make compliant with the forum policy on posting full-length articles

-PtA

[PeterTheAleut]

I was looking up Counsels from the Holy Mountain, and came across this link:

What do you want us to see in this article?

[Dnarmist]

Just thought it was interesting to share..

[ialmisry]

Destructive Orthodox groups also like to tell you to get rid of your TV and/or avoid movies.

Obviously someone who hasn't watched TV or seen a movie in a while.

[PeterTheAleut]

Just thought it was interesting to share..

Why?

[Dnarmist]

Do you need a reason?

[PeterTheAleut]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

[Dnarmist]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

[PeterTheAleut]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Please forgive me for being a nitpick, but I find the grammar of that last question hard to decipher. What are you asking?

[ozgeorge]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Please forgive me for being a nitpick, but I find the grammar of that last question hard to decipher. What are you asking?

Interesting article, thanks Dnarmist.
Living in Australia, I've not had any direct experience with Elder Ephrem or St. Anthony's Monastery, but I have read a book they published about Harry Potter entitled Would You Like to Initiate Your Children to Satanism?- The Truth behind the Harry Potter Stories." which the monastery website describes as "irrefutable", however, I found it quite refutable.
I think we have to be careful though. Monasticism in any form could fit the criteria described in the article.

[Iconodule]

If, by those standards, St. Anthony's is a "mind control cult," then Orthodox spirituality is a "mind control cult." Pretty much everything quoted from the Elder can be traced to texts in the Philokalia, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, writings of St. Symeon the New Theologian, and many, many other holy Fathers.

[Justin Kissel]

Interesting article, thanks Dnarmist.

I was going to say "interesting" as well, though I know not whether that is good or bad. Sometimes I don't know what to think... Having never been to a monastery that acts like this--at least to my knowledge--I have a hard time understanding it...  

[Irish Melkite]

I think we have to be careful though. Monasticism in any form could fit the criteria described in the article.

I'd tend to agree with my brother, George, on that point, as well as to note that the criteria are equally able to be applied to almost any Church or religious entity within a Church. What distinguishes a valid religious entity from a cult (and almost every 'cult' exercises 'mind control' in some fashion) is the underlying purpose and intent and how its spiritual leaders see and exercise their leadership role within the body.

There is a significant, but often ignored, difference between fervor and zealotry - the latter is never pretty and can readily become a medium in which, acknowledged or not, the spiritual leader effectively becomes a diety unto himself or herself and belief in and worship of the God becomes subordinated to a rigid praxis and dogmatic theology dictated by, centered on, and solely achieved through the cult leader as intercessor - belittling any notion of individual spirituality as unworthy, unacceptable, misguided, or worse.

Many years,

Neil

[jnorm888]

Just thought it was interesting to share..

Just because you don't like Saint Anthony Monasteries doesn't mean everyone won't like their monasteries. Some people actually like that kind of style. To say it's wrong is to say that what they like/prefer is wrong. To be honest, I could care less about someones 8 points of a cult.

Some degree of mind control is necessary for human survival. We all live or are around groups, schools, teams, tribes, political parties, families, armies, clans, nations.......etc.

Believe it or not, but a certain level/degree of mind control is in all the above. It's unavoidable. We only pick on religious groups because we live in an extreme secular culture, but this type of stuff is everywhere.

Cults are normal and they are part of what it means to be human. Cults can be either good or bad.

[Dnarmist]

Just thought it was interesting to share..

Just because you don't like Saint Anthony Monasteries doesn't mean everyone won't like their monasteries. Some people actually like that kind of style. To say it's wrong is to say that what they like/prefer is wrong. To be honest, I could care less about someones 8 points of a cult.

I never said I didn't like St. Anthony's Monasteries...

[fisherman]

maybe the truth can be brainwashy

[jnorm888]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Why is mind control wrong in the first place? Who makes that decision? Also, how do you think people survived for thousands of years? We live in an extreme individualistic culture. But the past was more group based. And so why is it bad? Why is extreme individualism good?

Is it wrong to show great respect and obedience to Parents, Monarchs, Presidents, Generals......etc. Why are they only picking on religion? The truth is, we can't get rid of it totally for it's part of who we are. It's part of what we are.

[bogdan]

I don't know enough about Elder Ephraim's techniques to say anything specifically, but all religion is mind control. At least in Christianity, that's the whole point: to get people to act in a different way than they are disposed to act.

And in technical terms, Christianity *is* a cult, the personality cult of Jesus Christ, revealed in his church. Should we be shocked by this?

Like Iconodule said, the Fathers are full of this kind of concepts. Elder Ephraim did not invent any of this, he only brought it to a culture which it is completely foreign to.  I would submit that if this stuff scares people, it shows how far people have strayed from the Church; not how screwy Elder Ephraim is.

[fisherman]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Why is mind control wrong in the first place? Who makes that decision? Also, how do you think people survived for thousands of years? We live in an extreme individualistic culture. But the past was more group based. And so why is it bad? Why is extreme individualism good?

Is it wrong to show great respect and obedience to Parents, Monarchs, Presidents, Generals......etc. Why are they only picking on religion? The truth is, we can't get rid of it totally for it's part of who we are. It's part of what we are.

did you really just ask why mind control is wrong? maybe you should check out the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

[ozgeorge]

Perhaps, from the perspective of the Orthodox Church, a cult or sect is something which divides off from the Church?

[ozgeorge]

all religion is mind control.

Not sure I can agree with this. We are the rational sheep of Christ after all.
I think what is meant here by "mind control" is a surrender of volition.

[jnorm888]

Just thought it was interesting to share..

Just because you don't like Saint Anthony Monasteries doesn't mean everyone won't like their monasteries. Some people actually like that kind of style. To say it's wrong is to say that what they like/prefer is wrong. To be honest, I could care less about someones 8 points of a cult.

I never said I didn't like St. Anthony's Monasteries...

I'm sorry if I was mean to you. It's just that I use to be into the whole anti-cult movement of the Dr. Walter Martin and the Bible answer man type back in my protestant years, but when I found out that this anti-cult movement was nothing more than a 30 to 40 year modern thing because of what happened in the 70's. That's when I started to rethink.

Should we really care about what this modern movement thinks? When America falls....because every Kingdom comes and goes....but when this society falls will any of this anti-cult stuff matter? How will you survive if the grid is shut off? You will have to get along with other individuals and someone in that group will have to play leader in order for the whole group to survive.

And so how far should we really go with this anti-cult stuff? How did our ancestors survive? Why is rugged individualism right but group formation wrong?

Our ancestors were able to survive because they were in groups....tribes, clans, nation states, families, kingdoms.....etc. If we destroy that glue then we won't survive. Why? Because we won't know how to.

Anyway, the anti-cult movement has pretty much gone secular and so they seem to be attacking religious groups in general.....well, at least the ones that want to believe and practice what they are suppose to.

[orthonorm]

Frankly, I happy there are 8 marks, and not 3, 5, 6, 7, or 12. 11 would have been better.

Any primes 11 or higher other than 13 are the best, except 23.

Everyone knows all those other numbers are tools of the Illuminati.

[Shiny]

the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

What in the world is that? I just checked out their forum, that a new cult or something?

Everyone knows all those other numbers are tools of the Illuminati.

LOL

[jnorm888]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Why is mind control wrong in the first place? Who makes that decision? Also, how do you think people survived for thousands of years? We live in an extreme individualistic culture. But the past was more group based. And so why is it bad? Why is extreme individualism good?

Is it wrong to show great respect and obedience to Parents, Monarchs, Presidents, Generals......etc. Why are they only picking on religion? The truth is, we can't get rid of it totally for it's part of who we are. It's part of what we are.

did you really just ask why mind control is wrong? maybe you should check out the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

I've been saying this on this forum for years. Check the archives. This isn't the first time the cult issue was brought up.

If someone else brings it up again some months from now....... you will see me say the samething I am saying now.

Yes, I know that the word "cult" sounds bad. It has been demonized in our society. I am fully aware of how the word is viewed in modern pop culture. That too is a form of brainwashing.......a form of indoctrination.

Either way it is inevitable.

[orthonorm]

the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

What in the world is that? I just checked out their forum, that a new cult or something?

Everyone knows all those other numbers are tools of the Illuminati.

LOL

All Hail Eris! Immanentize the Eschaton! 23 Skidoo! Aleister Crowley:

People call me Crowley who treat me holy,
Those whose treat me fouly call me Crowley.

The Order of the Golden Dawn is the sole seat of primordial wisdom from time immemorial. At least until the deep ones arise from their slumber.

[orthonorm]

If someone else brings it up again some months from now....... you will see me say the samething I am saying now.

Dude, your mind is like totally under control.

[bogdan]

all religion is mind control.

Not sure I can agree with this. We are the rational sheep of Christ after all.
I think what is meant here by "mind control" is a surrender of volition.

That's true. I just mean in the sense that we surrender our wills voluntarily, to instead be driven by the will of another, namely Christ. But yes, it is perhaps too broad or complicated to throw loaded terms around like that.

[orthonorm]

I defy anyone to control my mind. Actually, I would beg you to do so. It's a real mess.

[Shiny]

the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

What in the world is that? I just checked out their forum, that a new cult or something?

Everyone knows all those other numbers are tools of the Illuminati.

LOL

All Hail Eris! Immanentize the Eschaton! 23 Skidoo! Aleister Crowley:

People call me Crowley who treat me holy,
Those whose treat me fouly call me Crowley.

The Order of the Golden Dawn is the sole seat of primordial wisdom from time immemorial. At least until the deep ones arise from their slumber.

Sign me up

[Justin Kissel]

Mr. Crowley, what went down in your head
(Oh) Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead
Your lifestyle to me seems so tragic
With the thrill of it all
You fooled all the people with magic
(Yeah)You waited on Satan's call

[ozgeorge]

all religion is mind control.

Not sure I can agree with this. We are the rational sheep of Christ after all.
I think what is meant here by "mind control" is a surrender of volition.

That's true. I just mean in the sense that we surrender our wills voluntarily, to instead be driven by the will of another, namely Christ. But yes, it is perhaps too broad or complicated to throw loaded terms around like that.

We still have a problem in that while it is clearly "legitimate" to surrender one's will voluntarily to God, a dokimos (postulant) in an Orthodox monastery is expected to surrender their will voluntarily to to their Elder/Hegumen in the monastery. They are surrendering their will to a human being, trusting that this is God's Will. There is clearly room for abuse here, but the "safeguard" is continued Communion with the Church- a monastery is part of the Church under the Bishop, not in opposition to them. This safeguard does not exist in cult's like "Heaven's Gate" or the "Peoples Temple", or indeed any group not in Communion with the Church. So what is the practice in our monasteries is not necessarily transferable outside of them.
Also, what is true of a dokimos is not true of a tonsured monk. A "dokimos" means one who is being tried/tested. Once this period is over and they become monks, they are expected to "pick up their will" again; so this type of obedience is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. However, in the case of lay people who go to Orthodox monasteries, an Elder or Eldress cannot treat them as they would a dokimos (expecting the obedience of a dokimos), because there is no clear end to this since the person is not preparing to be tonsured as a monastic. I have, in the past, seen this sort of behaviour by some monastic "Elders" with laity, and I think its unhealthy.

[jnorm888]

Do you need a reason?

I suppose I don't need a reason, but I thought that maybe a good understanding of why you think the article interesting could help us understand what you wish to discuss about the article. Just call my questioning a way of focusing this discussion.

I just thought it was intersting how this article took the 8 ways of certain mind control criteria and applied it to the Elder's observations of Orthodoxy. I guess what I wanted to discuss are do some of the things the Elder says has ground in using them as mind control?

Why is mind control wrong in the first place? Who makes that decision? Also, how do you think people survived for thousands of years? We live in an extreme individualistic culture. But the past was more group based. And so why is it bad? Why is extreme individualism good?

Is it wrong to show great respect and obedience to Parents, Monarchs, Presidents, Generals......etc. Why are they only picking on religion? The truth is, we can't get rid of it totally for it's part of who we are. It's part of what we are.

did you really just ask why mind control is wrong? maybe you should check out the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

1.) Is it cultic for kids to obey their parents?

2.) Back in the day was it cultic for neighbors to discipline someone else's kids?

3.) Is it cultic for employees to listen to their employer?

4.) Is it cultic for a Democrat or Republican to conform to the party line?

5.) Is it cultic for a soldier to listen to their superiors?

6.) Is it cultic for a serf to obey their Duke, Lord or King?

7.) Is it cultic for a slave to obey their master?

8.) Is it cultic for a citizen to obide by the laws of the land?


I can go on and on and on.....why is Religion the only one pointed out? Why is it ok to listen to everything else but a Religious group? Why is that wrong and all the others right? Could it be because we live in an extreme secular culture? Could that be the reason?

The Anti-cult movement started out because the kids of moderate to conservative protestant families were coming back home from college talking all funny, smoking weed, and kissing Buddhist statues. They were in new age groups and their parents wanted them out, and it really became huge after the Jim Jones incident. But now that our society is increasingly becoming more and more secular, the anti-cult movement has changed to attack conservative and traditional religious groups in general. They want to take the zeal away from christian groups. They don't bother the Buddhist monks! But they bother us! Why? They don't bother Islam.....but they bother us! Why?

[Heorhij]

I believe that mind control by someone who loves is OK.

The hard part is to discern, whether he (they) really love.

In my home country, Ukraine, right now there are a gazillion monks, many of them quite young, who tell their "groupies" (sorry for this blunt term) that acquiring a taxpayer's number means making a deal with Satan, as Rev. 13:16-18 most explicitly says. They also tell their "faithful" that if they brush their teeth prior to the Divine Liturgy, they will most certainly burn in hell for all eternity. And there are priests, belonging to a "canonical" jurisdiction, who sell to their faithfull the time share when the faithful can put the "slippers worn by Christ" on their feet, so that they (the faithful) will be thus cured from illnesses.

In Ukraine as well as in the West, also, there are some who say that if we do not pay attention to dudes who wrote, one time or other, that the Earth is the center of the universe or that all biological species were not created on the exact days Scripture tells us they were - then we aren't Orthodox and, again, will burn in hell for all eternity.

What I love about Holy Orthodoxy is that dumbasses like the above will never take over it. Because we are the Church, the Body of Christ. We do not submit to mind control exercised by freaks. Gates of Hades will not overcome us.

[Saint Iaint]

Orthodoxy is not a cult.

In my mind at least - 'cult' carries the connotation of something that is false (and in fact crazy).

Orthodoxy is the truth. Orthodoxy is salvation.

Orthodoxy is voluntary behaviour-modification.

Orthodoxy is communion with the Saviour of the world.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[ozgeorge]

Have you read the article? The author is not suggesting that Orthodoxy itself is a cult, but that St. Anthony's Monastery in which he was involved is.

[Justin Kissel]

1.) Is it cultic for kids to obey their parents?

2.) Back in the day was it cultic for neighbors to discipline someone else's kids?

3.) Is it cultic for employees to listen to their employer?

4.) Is it cultic for a Democrat or Republican to conform to the party line?

8.) Is it cultic for a citizen to obide by the laws of the land?

Sometimes, yes.

5.) Is it cultic for a soldier to listen to their superiors?

Almost always, yes.

6.) Is it cultic for a serf to obey their Duke, Lord or King?

7.) Is it cultic for a slave to obey their master?

Cultic? I dunno. Oppressive? Maybe. Undesirable? Almost certaintly.

[Jetavan]

So we all agree that being "cultic" is no better nor worse than being "devoted", right?

[ozgeorge]

So we all agree that being "cultic" is no better nor worse than being "devoted", right?

No. I certainly don't agree.
"Zeal without knowledge" is not devotion, and if Elder Ephraim really thinks The Protocols are a reliable source of information as the article seems to suggest, then I'd question why people should be devoted to him.

[fisherman]

the golden dawn forum if mind control is your thing

What in the world is that? I just checked out their forum, that a new cult or something?

Everyone knows all those other numbers are tools of the Illuminati.

LOL

old cult resurfacing mostly losers

[FatherGiryus]

I suppose the problem I have with the site (after closing down the pop-ups that told me I could find a new mate or collect $1 million), is the repetitive use the word 'destructive' without defining it.

My objection here is that you cannot accuse the monastery of being 'destructive' unless you can prove that it has 'destroyed' people.  I would like them to better explain their position in that regard.  It would also be helpful to compare the actual number of people who are 'injured' to the mean average of people who have unfavorable results from joining another group, such as the Marine Corps or Overeaters Anonymous or a Pentacostal worship group.  Then, if the site can establish that more people are injured on average by being part of the monastery than other 'non-cult' groups, then I would take it seriously.  Right now, i do not take the 'destructive' accusation seriously because there is no evidence to do so.

[Iconodule]

The Golden Dawn was a bit of a watershed of late 19th-early 20th century occultism. WB Yeats and Aleister Crowley are among the more famous members. The original group is gone but there are lots of offshoots (as with the Rosicrucians).

[Shanghaiski]

I am well acquainted with spiritual children of Elder Ephraim and his disciples and have visited St. Anthony's and others of the Elder's monasteries many times. My spiritual father, however, is not connected with them. I see, in this group, a wide diversity. I know level-headed people, and I know some who are a bit "off." In America and elsewhere where you have a lot of "converts" (both people who have never been Orthodox before and those whose families have been Orthodox for generations but they themselves are just getting interested in their spiritual lives), you're going to have some unfortunate people who one might call "elder worshippers." This isn't, per se, an accusation against elders themselves, but a statement about the condition of inexperienced individuals who in turn lack in-depth spiritual guidance and instruction from experienced spiritual fathers. They might be disciples or confessors to an elder, but they see him rarely. An elder may be clairvoyant, but I dare say that an infrequent visit, while it may be life-changing and very helpful spiritually, needs to be supplemented by regular, mundane spiritual relationship with a spiritual father and community in order to round out what is taught and put it into practice in the proper context.

[Iconodule]

I was in one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries about a week and a half ago. I remember one incident where one of the pilgrims was discussing some conspiracy theories with one of the monks. He kept jumping from one topic to another- "They're trying to control our children with GMO crops! They legalized witchcraft in Romania- it's a sign of the end times! Did you hear about the birds in Arkansas?" etc. The monk mostly kept quiet, sometimes asking, "are you sure about that? Where did you hear that?" and then finally he said (to paraphrase) "We put our faith in Jesus Christ. All that other stuff doesn't matter- don't worry about it."

[Antonis]

People have been trying to label the Elder as an extremist for a while. The truth is, and I have been to St. Anthony's, it is a beautiful monastery with wonderful monks. The Elder Ephraim is a good man who truly follows the writings of the fathers. Apparently agreeing with the church fathers is now grounds for being a nut.