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Author Topic: 3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed  (Read 2581 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 15, 2011, 10:01:56 PM »

 3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed.

Most English version say “Blessed” , should be not “Blissful”?
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 10:16:23 PM »

3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed.

Most English version say “Blessed” , should be not “Blissful”?


In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 12:37:17 AM »

3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed.

Most English version say “Blessed” , should be not “Blissful”?


In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.
"happy" - is more correct then "blessed".
But “happy” could be misleading and is not so accurate as "blissful" .



Mat 5. apply  μακαριότητα "mak‹riow" - blissful.
blessed - ευλογημένος

It is make me wounder each time I hearing it  ….. “happy” is not word I prefer to use as it not describe correct state (imo), but blissful sound like most correct one. Is not?

It is changing correct perception of Christianity.
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 01:15:19 AM »

3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed.

Most English version say “Blessed” , should be not “Blissful”?


In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.
"happy" - is more correct then "blessed".
But “happy” could be misleading and is not so accurate as "blissful" .



Mat 5. apply  μακαριότητα "mak‹riow" - blissful.
blessed - ευλογημένος

It is make me wounder each time I hearing it  ….. “happy” is not word I prefer to use as it not describe correct state (imo), but blissful sound like most correct one. Is not?

It is changing correct perception of Christianity.

Happiness is based on passing circumstances and the things of this world, blessedness is based on the activity of God in someone's life. You can find temporary happiness in anything sinful, you can only find blessedness in God. Using the word "blessed" implies looking to God where "happy" implies looking to the things of the world for fulfillment.
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 02:23:14 AM »

3rd antiphon: Blissful v Blessed.

Most English version say “Blessed” , should be not “Blissful”?


In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.
"happy" - is more correct then "blessed".
But “happy” could be misleading and is not so accurate as "blissful" .



Mat 5. apply  μακαριότητα "mak‹riow" - blissful.
blessed - ευλογημένος

It is make me wounder each time I hearing it  ….. “happy” is not word I prefer to use as it not describe correct state (imo), but blissful sound like most correct one. Is not?

It is changing correct perception of Christianity.

Happiness is based on passing circumstances and the things of this world, blessedness is based on the activity of God in someone's life. You can find temporary happiness in anything sinful, you can only find blessedness in God. Using the word "blessed" implies looking to God where "happy" implies looking to the things of the world for fulfillment.


Look like you missing point and change topic.

μακαριότητα  - blissful (Matt 5/Matt 11:6/Matt 13:6/Luk 6……. Rom 4:6….. etc.)
ευλογημένος - blessed  (Matt 14:19/ Matt 21:9 / Matt 25:34 ….Mk 14:21….. 1 Pt 1:3… etc)
need more?


Do you have problem with gospel reading?


We not talking about “physiological contrition” developed by endorphin splash,  drunkenness, drug use, sex, music, lust, dream, self deception  etc. - normally called and referred as happiness.

We talking about “condition” of  blissfulness as result of correct Christian perception.
Blessed are people about whom some one speak up well.
We all “blessed” not all “blissful”.
Great if some one fit both.

“blessed” not all “blissful” are deferent words , and deferent meanings which should be not mixed.



Is not?


Jesus refer to “condition” – “blissful” (μακαριότητα) – not action “Blessed” (ευλογημένος )



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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 01:31:49 PM »

Actually the translation of Makarios as Blessed is OK; the "O Gladsome Light", the hymn which is part of the Orthodox vespers service, contains the even earlier form "μάκαρ" (makar) when refering to Jesus Christ (ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ) and it is (rightly so) translated into English as "the Holy, the Blessed, O Jesus Christ". Besides makar/makarios is not exactly the blissful one but the "ὄλβιος" one (which according to Liddell-Scott is the blest)

I apologise for my pedantic attitude; one of the shortcomings of the profession I guess
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 08:24:59 AM »

Actually the translation of Makarios as Blessed is OK; the "O Gladsome Light", the hymn which is part of the Orthodox vespers service, contains the even earlier form "μάκαρ" (makar) when refering to Jesus Christ (ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ) and it is (rightly so) translated into English as "the Holy, the Blessed, O Jesus Christ". Besides makar/makarios is not exactly the blissful one but the "ὄλβιος" one (which according to Liddell-Scott is the blest)

I apologise for my pedantic attitude; one of the shortcomings of the profession I guess
I not understand what make you think it is “OK” to translate μακαριότητα  as  ευλογημένος?

They are not synonyms, related some way – yes, but not synonym.



And if blissful not correct and not suit you, then “happy” would be most correct one.



As was mentioned above:

Quote
"blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing.


μακαριότητα  - state (personal condition)


ευλογημένος – action


it is not appropriate nor excusable to mix “action” with “condition”.  Jesus and Apostles differentiate it, and I not see any excuses for us to mess it up.


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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 11:41:25 AM »

Jesus refer to “condition” – “blissful” (μακαριότητα) – not action “Blessed” (ευλογημένος )

Blessed is a condition, it is a condition that comes about as a result of something that God does. You can get "happiness" and "blissfulness" anywhere, you can only get "blessedness" from God. That is why it is the preferred way to translate that word.
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 08:30:05 PM »

Jesus refer to “condition” – “blissful” (μακαριότητα) – not action “Blessed” (ευλογημένος )

Blessed is a condition, it is a condition that comes about as a result of something that God does. You can get "happiness" and "blissfulness" anywhere, you can only get "blessedness" from God. That is why it is the preferred way to translate that word.

You just forget to add that is your personal interpretation of gospel and Jesus words.
And you try to say that μακαριότητα could be only God granted state, and not apply at any way to any general use in Greek?

Sound like that μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are synonyms for you.
not for me.



I am strongly disagree

1. μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are not synonyms.

Not only God do blessing but also people:

And they stayed continually at the temple, ευλογουντες (blessing) God.”  - not μακαριότητα

Need more? There are lot of it in bible.


Blessed are antonym to cursed

“ If you are censured and suffer abuse the name of Christ, μακαριοι” -  not ευλογουντες.




If Jesus mean blessed He would say  ευλογημένος , not μακαριότητα. But He  did not say ευλογημένος but μακαριοι.



But sound like, you mixing μακαριοι”  with  ευλογουντες.and make synonyms and put equal value.
So English reader get confused and develop wrong perception:

Quote
In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.


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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 10:05:45 PM »

You just forget to add that is your personal interpretation of gospel and Jesus words.

No. That is the "personal interpretation" of the people who translated the Bible and liturgical texts into english. The only english translations of the Bible that don't use "blessed" are inferior on other points too, like saying that a "young woman" will conceive and other such nonsense. I'm not aware of any english liturgical texts that use any word other than "blessed".

Also, as someone else pointed out, we say "blessed" in the hymn we sing at vespers. It's also the same word used to describe Mary in the magnificat. "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name."



Quote
And you try to say that μακαριότητα could be only God granted state, and not apply at any way to any general use in Greek?

Sound like that μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are synonyms for you.
not for me.

No. I'm not saying that μακαριότητα can only come from God in it's normal usage in the greek language. I'm saying that in that passage, it does come from God and no one else.


Quote
I am strongly disagree

1. μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are not synonyms.

Not only God do blessing but also people:

And they stayed continually at the temple, ευλογουντες (blessing) God.”  - not μακαριότητα

Need more? There are lot of it in bible.


Yes. And "makarios" is also translated as "blessed" the majority of the time it occurs in the Bible.

Quote
Blessed are antonym to cursed

Exactly. Anyone who suffers for the name of Christ is "antonym to cursed".
 
Quote
“ If you are censured and suffer abuse the name of Christ, μακαριοι” -  not ευλογουντες.




If Jesus mean blessed He would say  ευλογημένος , not μακαριότητα. But He  did not say ευλογημένος but μακαριοι.



But sound like, you mixing μακαριοι”  with  ευλογουντες.and make synonyms and put equal value.
So English reader get confused and develop wrong perception:

Quote
In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.

Why are you pushing the issue so hard? Why is it so important for you to push "your personal interpretation" on the matter?

God is the One who makes the poor rich.
God is the One who comforts those that mourn.
God is the One who gives the earth to the meek.
God is the One who fills us with rightousness.
God is the ultimate source of all mercy.
God is the One who reveals Himself to us and purifies our hearts.
God is the source of true peace, and it is Him who adopts us as His children.
God is the One who grants the kingdom of heaven to those who are persecuted for His sake.

We are to seek God for these things and recognize them as coming from Him. "Makarios" is best translated as "blessed" in this context, that is why it is used by our bishops.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 11:46:09 PM »

You just forget to add that is your personal interpretation of gospel and Jesus words.
And you try to say that μακαριότητα could be only God granted state, and not apply at any way to any general use in Greek?

Sound like that μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are synonyms for you.
not for me.

I am strongly disagree

1. μακαριότητα and ευλογημένος are not synonyms.

Not only God do blessing but also people:

And they stayed continually at the temple, ευλογουντες (blessing) God.”  - not μακαριότητα

Need more? There are lot of it in bible.


Blessed are antonym to cursed

“ If you are censured and suffer abuse the name of Christ, μακαριοι” -  not ευλογουντες.




If Jesus mean blessed He would say  ευλογημένος , not μακαριότητα. But He  did not say ευλογημένος but μακαριοι.



But sound like, you mixing μακαριοι”  with  ευλογουντες.and make synonyms and put equal value.
So English reader get confused and develop wrong perception:

Probablies more peoples would considers your argumentums if you'se English was a bit bettter. Ime just sayin. If U wants to lecture people bout theyre language, is good to no dat language pretty goodly, wright?  police  Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 12:21:51 AM »

I not consider blessed as correct translation of μακαριοι.

Why?

I have point above.
Need one more time?
Μακαριοι is not  ευλογουντες.
Any questions?



Why I concern about?

For people substitute one meaning  with another and try to promote it is “ok”.

But it is not OK.

Most people who translate Bible to English was poisoned by  Latin(romans) perception and  promote faulty condition and deceptive states.

And if ok for you to substitute μακαριοι”  with  ευλογουντες and opposite, it is your problem.
Same time I see deference and cant stand deception.

And such statements as :

In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.


Is pure evidence that you not getting correct massage.

If it ok to you, that people full themselves – it is your problem, but it is not ok with me.
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 12:53:30 AM »

I not consider blessed as correct translation of μακαριοι.

Why?

I have point above.
Need one more time?
Μακαριοι is not  ευλογουντες.
Any questions?

It's not a matter of exchanging one greek word for another, it's a matter of translating a greek word into english to fit the context of the passage to convey the proper meaning.

Why I concern about?

For people substitute one meaning  with another and try to promote it is “ok”.

But it is not OK.

It is OK according to every Orthodox bishop whose diocese serves a liturgy in english.

Most people who translate Bible to English was poisoned by  Latin(romans) perception and  promote faulty condition and deceptive states.

And if ok for you to substitute μακαριοι”  with  ευλογουντες and opposite, it is your problem.


Once again, it is not substituting one greek word for another, it is translating one greek word into english.

We don't call our Savior "heavenly, holy, happy, Jesus Christ", and we don't refer to Mary as "ever-happy, and most pure".

Same time I see deference and cant stand deception.

And such statements as :

In english, "blissful" refers more to how one feels, where "blessed" points more to an action that God is doing. I've seen Bible translations that use "happy" where it should say "blessed" and it really bothers me when I see it.


Is pure evidence that you not getting correct massage.

If it ok to you, that people full themselves – it is your problem, but it is not ok with me.

God is the One who makes the poor rich.
God is the One who comforts those that mourn.
God is the One who gives the earth to the meek.
God is the One who fills us with rightousness.
God is the ultimate source of all mercy.
God is the One who reveals Himself to us and purifies our hearts.
God is the source of true peace, and it is Him who adopts us as His children.
God is the One who grants the kingdom of heaven to those who are persecuted for His sake.

We are to seek God for these things and recognize them as coming from Him.

Am I really pulling the wrong meaning out of this passage?
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 04:33:10 AM »

I not consider blessed as correct translation of μακαριοι.

Why?

I have point above.
Need one more time?
Μακαριοι is not  ευλογουντες.
Any questions?

It's not a matter of exchanging one greek word for another, it's a matter of translating a greek word into english to fit the context of the passage to convey the proper meaning.

But you use one meaning for 2 deferent words, and say it is OK this way.


and not just one word substitution, but even 1 letter was turn whole nations into wrong perception heresy.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 04:48:50 AM »



Am I really pulling the wrong meaning out of this passage?

Strong smell of Roman influence.    


1.   Orthodoxy is not latinan, and bishop is not pop
2.   Most bishops in English speaking countries – not native and not concern about “English”.




If for some of your bishops all same:

Μακαριοι – blessed….
Ευλογημένος – blessed….

it is not my concern. them would respond to God what them teach and promote.





and


I have no idea what μακαριοι means to you , but as for you it is same as ευλογημένος I goues you getting wrong message. Your chose.


May be enlish speaking not care, but I do distinguish Μακαριοι from Ευλογημένος.

Μακαριοι – mental state
Ευλογημένος – one whom receive blessing.


If you not distinguish it means your perception ability is deferent……. is it good? Bad? God know.

Green is Blue
Blue is Green….

Color blind people do not distinguish some color, it is not big deal, but when color blind start telling there are not deference green from blue…. I cant agree, for it is not true.


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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 04:55:07 AM »

Don't argue with this fellow, and he won't have any reason to argue with you.
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2011, 07:45:04 AM »

Μακάρι να ήξερα τι σημαίνει «Μακάριοi»
("I wish I knew what "Μακάριοi" meant")
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 10:56:33 AM »

Please tell us, Alive, is English your native language? Do you live in a country where English is the predominant language? Do you attend an Orthodox church where English is the predominant language? It does make a difference.
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 11:10:14 AM »

I not consider blessed as correct translation of μακαριοι.

You seem to lack proper understanding of semantic range in language (as well as skills in English grammar. Just sayin'), and so you're trying to make a word-to-word ratio in translation. This just...doesn't work.

Words in different languages almost never mean the exact same thing all the time. Even if the denotation of two words is more-or-less the same, the connotation is not. Even if "blissful" and "Μακαριοι" are denotatively equal, "blissful" has a connotation that is inappropiate to apply to "Μακαριοι." The semantic range of these words is too divergent to use blissful as an apt translation in the Beatitudes.
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 06:46:09 PM »

I not consider blessed as correct translation of μακαριοι.

You seem to lack proper understanding of semantic range in language (as well as skills in English grammar. Just sayin'), and so you're trying to make a word-to-word ratio in translation. This just...doesn't work.


It is not about translation, it is about perception.

Red is red, pink is pink etc….

People change “terminology” based on experience.

If 100 years ago “fun” was indication of bad manner and idiotic behaviour ,  but now “fun” is matter of life. “wicked” – in this day is indication of outstanding and great things.


Christian not live this way:
And Jesus same , and Job same, and satan same.

Wicked – is bad.
Fun – is wrong.
Etc.

Such great example of semantic range of English…. Or perhaps ignorance if native English speaking audience.
Ignorance , ignoring  recognition itself as ignorant.




Blessing – is blessing – it is action.
State of blissfulness – is kind state of joy. And Greeks and most other nations not dumb to use special independent word but you think English so special that no need to distinguish Μακαριοι from ευλογουντες.


Than you make Apostles and Prophets and Jesus – look like idiots, for them did differentiate Μακαριοι from ευλογουντες.

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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 07:02:18 PM »

The title of the Archbishop of the Church of Greece in Biblical Greek:

Η Αυτού Μακαριότης ο Αρχιεπίσκοπος Αθηνών

Gee Alive, the bolded word is translated from Biblical Greek to English as "Beatitude" and if we look at the Beatitudes, they are translated into English as "Blessed are those ..." not "Blissful are those ..."

Just drop it.   Angry  Thank you.   Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 11:50:19 PM »

The title of the Archbishop of the Church of Greece in Biblical Greek:

Η Αυτού Μακαριότης ο Αρχιεπίσκοπος Αθηνών


Gee Alive, the bolded word is translated from Biblical Greek to English as "Beatitude" and if we look at the Beatitudes, they are translated into English as "Blessed are those ..." not "Blissful are those ..."

Just drop it.   Angry  Thank you.   Smiley

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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 11:58:15 PM »

Alive,

Please let us know where you studied Greek and from where your Degree in English language is from?
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 11:47:12 AM »

Alive,

Please let us know where you studied Greek and from where your Degree in English language is from?
You're not likely to get a coherent answer. I asked Alive several posts back if English is his native language. No response.
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 02:16:55 PM »

Oh, well, I tried.

The OPs knowledge of Greek seems nearly non-existant, and his English isn't much better.

Moving on...
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »



Oh, well, I tried.

The OPs knowledge of Greek seems nearly non-existant, and his English isn't much better.

Moving on...

Alive,

Please let us know where you studied Greek and from where your Degree in English language is from?
You're not likely to get a coherent answer. I asked Alive several posts back if English is his native language. No response.


Hello Inquisition,

There is more info for your mind to burn:



Μακαριοι – mental state
Bliss - a state of profound satisfaction, happiness and joy, a constant state of mind, undisturbed by gain or loss



Ευλογημένος – one whom receive blessing.
Blessing - a religious pronouncement  
The modern meaning of the term may have been influenced in translations of the Bible into Old English during the process of Christianization to translate the Latin term benedīcere meaning to "speak well of", resulting in meanings such as to "praise" or "extol" or to speak of or to wish well.



Sound like your English language skill and degree not give capacity to see difference.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 05:28:57 PM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 08:14:03 PM »



It Ssounds like your English language skills and degree not give you the capacity to see difference.
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 11:52:00 PM »

It Ssounds like your English language skills and degree not give you the capacity to see difference.




Astronomers teach about the stars, but do not understand what happening on earth
Physics get deep inside of the atom and can not reach own heart
Grammar teaches  teach how to write words but not understand meaning of it.



Obviously you have no thing to add about Μακαριοι   and ευλογουντες. …. Apart spelling correction.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:54:39 PM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 12:09:14 AM »

It Ssounds like your English language skills and degree not give you the capacity to see difference.




Astronomers teach about the stars, but do not understand what on happening on earth
Physics deep in inside the atom and can not understand own heart
Grammar teaches  teach how to write words but not understand their meaning.



Obviously you have no thing to add about Μακαριοι   and ευλογουντες. …. Apart spelling correction.

English is obviously not your native language. You don't speak it very well and you don't fully understand the different meanings that words can carry. If you spoke english, you would understand why it is always translated "blessed" by everyone everywhere. Please forgive me for not being able to properly explain to you why it is offensive to prefer "happy" or "blissful" over "blessed" to someone who actually speaks the language.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:10:15 AM by Melodist » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 09:23:28 AM »

It Ssounds like your English language skills and degree not give you the capacity to see difference.




Astronomers teach about the stars, but do not understand what on happening on earth
Physics deep in inside the atom and can not understand own heart
Grammar teaches  teach how to write words but not understand their meaning.



Obviously you have no thing to add about Μακαριοι   and ευλογουντες. …. Apart spelling correction.

English is obviously not your native language. You don't speak it very well and you don't fully understand the different meanings that words can carry. If you spoke english, you would understand why it is always translated "blessed" by everyone everywhere. Please forgive me for not being able to properly explain to you why it is offensive to prefer "happy" or "blissful" over "blessed" to someone who actually speaks the language.

Any thing you say are witnessing against you as you have not correct compotation of orthodoxy and twisting meaning.

I see people like you every day, and know what you talking about.
“native language” excuses etc. are common statements madded to justify your ignorance.


People like you twisting orthodox perception, and create “own orthodoxy” – “English one” to justify personal deceptions you developed.

Many people like you stick to orthodoxy “to raise own self-esteem”. For you  “orthodoxy” way to get some specific identity with out control. So you interpreting any thing as you whish, and if any one try to point to you your errors and say you wrong, you have set formula to justify your deception:
“it is specific of English language” …..


I teach (on “English” ) and communicate with students (for whom English is only language)  on every day basis and know most thing you may say ever before you open your mouth.



…… And by the way , “blissful” was not my call…. This call belong to friend of my – native English speaker and very old orthodox priest with great "native English" skills….

I just fully agree with him and raise this issue on this forum.



But sound like you have no thing to say apart foolish accusation.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 09:30:18 AM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2011, 09:57:29 AM »

Alive,
Do you see a connection between the Scriptural plural word "Μακάριοι" and the modern greek word "Μακάρι" as in "Μακαρι να κερδίσω το λαχείο"? How would you translate "Μακαρι να κερδίσω το λαχείο"?
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 03:20:46 PM »

It Ssounds like your English language skills and degree not give you the capacity to see difference.




Astronomers teach about the stars, but do not understand what on happening on earth
Physics deep in inside the atom and can not understand own heart
Grammar teaches  teach how to write words but not understand their meaning.



Obviously you have no thing to add about Μακαριοι   and ευλογουντες. …. Apart spelling correction.

English is obviously not your native language. You don't speak it very well and you don't fully understand the different meanings that words can carry. If you spoke english, you would understand why it is always translated "blessed" by everyone everywhere. Please forgive me for not being able to properly explain to you why it is offensive to prefer "happy" or "blissful" over "blessed" to someone who actually speaks the language.

Any thing you say are witnessing against you as you have not correct compotation of orthodoxy and twisting meaning.
And yet, you have not yet cited any Orthodox authority on this matter outside of yourself. Why are we to trust you and you alone?

I see people like you every day, and know what you talking about.
“native language” excuses etc. are common statements madded to justify your ignorance.


People like you twisting orthodox perception, and create “own orthodoxy” – “English one” to justify personal deceptions you developed.

Many people like you stick to orthodoxy “to raise own self-esteem”. For you  “orthodoxy” way to get some specific identity with out control. So you interpreting any thing as you whish, and if any one try to point to you your errors and say you wrong, you have set formula to justify your deception:
“it is specific of English language” …..
And yet, when someone confronts your apparently unique interpretation of a couple of key words, all you can do is strike out and slam that someone for his "ignorance". Does this mean that you have no support, none whatsoever, for your position?

I teach (on “English” ) and communicate with students (for whom English is only language)  on every day basis and know most thing you may say ever before you open your mouth.
And yet, the command of the English language you have shown on this thread is terrible. Can you not see how this diminishes your credibility to speak as an authority on the meanings of English words?


…… And by the way , “blissful” was not my call…. This call belong to friend of my – native English speaker and very old orthodox priest with great "native English" skills….

I just fully agree with him and raise this issue on this forum.
Mere name dropping... Can you quote him for us?

But sound like you have no thing to say apart foolish accusation.

BTW, I notice that you have not yet answered arimethea's request to know where you studied Greek and English except to post some picture associating him with the Spanish Inquisition. You are speaking solely on your own authority here, so it's very important to your message to let us know how you are qualified to speak as such an authority. Otherwise, no one is going to ever find you convincing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:26:51 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 03:53:43 PM »

…… And by the way , “blissful” was not my call…. This call belong to friend of my – native English speaker and very old orthodox priest with great "native English" skills….

Is this "very old" Priest who told you this still an active celebrant?
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 05:34:28 PM »

Alive,
Do you see a connection between the Scriptural plural word "Μακάριοι" and the modern greek word "Μακάρι" as in "Μακαρι να κερδίσω το λαχείο"? How would you translate "Μακαρι να κερδίσω το λαχείο"?
People all the time use, twisting and substitute “religion” terminology. So what? Should I change terminology?
People live for “fun” and “wicked” is good for them.

“if good in you is evil, I can just imagine what your evil would be then” Ap. Paul.


And if such people try to build church in there twisted perception, then you get blessed instead bliss.
ευλογουντες instead mακαριοι.



How “modern Greeks” ruin they life and change language and perception is not my concern.

Jesus same now and 2000 years ago.


To be blessed is to be blessed, 
To be bliss is to be bliss


And so far no one may present any dissent count argument why meaning substitute and presented incorrectly.



And before you may speaking about “spiritual” condition you need know what it is.


Blissfulness is not only spiritual condition , it is effecting whole man.

It is unifying state.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 05:46:39 PM »

Blissfulness is not only a spiritual condition , but it is effecting also something that effects the whole man.

It is a unifying state.


"Blissfulness" is tasting the deer roast that I've had marinating in barbecue sauce, worcestershire sauce, and garlic powder, after cooking it for three hours. "Happiness" is having food in my stomach. "Blessedness" is not trusting in the things of this world.
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 05:59:27 PM »

Is it just me or is this thread beginning to take on some of the characteristics of a "Grand Unification" thread elsewhere? (A thread that I have not even tried to look at for several weeks now). The level of English is similar - some unspecified references to Orthodoxy - a refusal to answer direct questions - a focus on blissfulness.

It's getting close to the time to give this thread a rest, too.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 06:23:41 PM »

How “modern Greeks” ruin they life and change language and perception is not my concern.

Jesus same now and 2000 years ago.

Yes, you are correct. Language does change.
I actually do understand what you are trying to say, and I'm sorry that some people have misunderstood you.
I also understand problems of translating both mακαριοι and ευλογημενος as "blessed" since it doesn't distinguish between Christ as the One we praise as ευλογημενος ο ερχομενος εν ονοματι κυριου ("blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord") and the meek who are mακαριοι because they will inherit the Earth.
Rather than "blissful" though, I would translate mακαριοι as "fortunate". Here's my logic.
Lets stay with Koine. If we keep with the idea that mακαριοι should be translated as "blissful" which is an adjective, how should we translate μακαρισμος which is the noun? If we follow the correct grammar it must be translated as "blissfulness". But if we translate it thus, we then have a problem in translating Romans 4:6-9

καθαπερ και δαβιδ λεγει τον μακαρισμον του ανθρωπου ω ο θεος λογιζεται δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων
μακαριοι ων αφεθησαν αι ανομιαι και ων επεκαλυφθησαν αι αμαρτιαι
μακαριος ανηρ ω ου μη λογισηται κυριος αμαρτιαν
ο μακαρισμος ουν ουτος επι την περιτομην η και επι την ακροβυστιαν λεγομεν γαρ οτι ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην


Which, if you translate as you suggest, using "blissful" for μακαριος, we get:

just as David also describes the blissfulness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Blissful are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blissful is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blissfulness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.


This is awkward, especially in the last verse which talks about "blissfulness coming upon" people.

However, if we translate μακαριος as "fortunate", then the noun is "fortune" and we get:

just as David also describes the fortune of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Fortunate are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Fortunate is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this fortune then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2011, 08:58:51 AM »

How “modern Greeks” ruin they life and change language and perception is not my concern.

Jesus same now and 2000 years ago.

Yes, you are correct. Language does change.
I actually do understand what you are trying to say, and I'm sorry that some people have misunderstood you.
I also understand problems of translating both mακαριοι and ευλογημενος as "blessed" since it doesn't distinguish between Christ as the One we praise as ευλογημενος ο ερχομενος εν ονοματι κυριου ("blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord") and the meek who are mακαριοι because they will inherit the Earth.
Rather than "blissful" though, I would translate mακαριοι as "fortunate". Here's my logic.
Lets stay with Koine. If we keep with the idea that mακαριοι should be translated as "blissful" which is an adjective, how should we translate μακαρισμος which is the noun? If we follow the correct grammar it must be translated as "blissfulness". But if we translate it thus, we then have a problem in translating Romans 4:6-9

καθαπερ και δαβιδ λεγει τον μακαρισμον του ανθρωπου ω ο θεος λογιζεται δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων
μακαριοι ων αφεθησαν αι ανομιαι και ων επεκαλυφθησαν αι αμαρτιαι
μακαριος ανηρ ω ου μη λογισηται κυριος αμαρτιαν
ο μακαρισμος ουν ουτος επι την περιτομην η και επι την ακροβυστιαν λεγομεν γαρ οτι ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην


Which, if you translate as you suggest, using "blissful" for μακαριος, we get:

just as David also describes the blissfulness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Blissful are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blissful is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blissfulness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.


This is awkward, especially in the last verse which talks about "blissfulness coming upon" people.

However, if we translate μακαριος as "fortunate", then the noun is "fortune" and we get:

just as David also describes the fortune of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Fortunate are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Fortunate is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this fortune then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.



For me use of Fortune – Is not appropriate.


From Latin fortuna (“fate, luck”).
Fortuna, the Roman goddess of luck (cf. the Greek Tyche)

And blissfulness and bliss – would perfectly suit to this part.


same for Psalm 1 "Blissful the man......" ,  Psalm 84 "Blissful is the man whose defence in You"


(New Living Translation):
Psalm 84 “What joy for those whose …..”
Psalm 1 “Oh, the joys of those who do ….”

Rom 4 :
”David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:  “Oh, what joy for those
      whose disobedience is forgiven,
      whose sins are put out of sight.
 8 Yes, what joy for those
      whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.”



As you see we have deal with state of joy - bliss not fortune.

Bliss - state of profound satisfaction, happiness and joy, a constant state of mind, undisturbed by gain or loss.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 09:03:42 AM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2011, 10:32:50 AM »

How “modern Greeks” ruin they life and change language and perception is not my concern.

Jesus same now and 2000 years ago.

Yes, you are correct. Language does change.
I actually do understand what you are trying to say, and I'm sorry that some people have misunderstood you.
I also understand problems of translating both mακαριοι and ευλογημενος as "blessed" since it doesn't distinguish between Christ as the One we praise as ευλογημενος ο ερχομενος εν ονοματι κυριου ("blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord") and the meek who are mακαριοι because they will inherit the Earth.
Rather than "blissful" though, I would translate mακαριοι as "fortunate". Here's my logic.
Lets stay with Koine. If we keep with the idea that mακαριοι should be translated as "blissful" which is an adjective, how should we translate μακαρισμος which is the noun? If we follow the correct grammar it must be translated as "blissfulness". But if we translate it thus, we then have a problem in translating Romans 4:6-9

καθαπερ και δαβιδ λεγει τον μακαρισμον του ανθρωπου ω ο θεος λογιζεται δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων
μακαριοι ων αφεθησαν αι ανομιαι και ων επεκαλυφθησαν αι αμαρτιαι
μακαριος ανηρ ω ου μη λογισηται κυριος αμαρτιαν
ο μακαρισμος ουν ουτος επι την περιτομην η και επι την ακροβυστιαν λεγομεν γαρ οτι ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην


Which, if you translate as you suggest, using "blissful" for μακαριος, we get:

just as David also describes the blissfulness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Blissful are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blissful is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blissfulness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.


This is awkward, especially in the last verse which talks about "blissfulness coming upon" people.

However, if we translate μακαριος as "fortunate", then the noun is "fortune" and we get:

just as David also describes the fortune of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Fortunate are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Fortunate is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this fortune then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.



For me use of Fortune – Is not appropriate.


From Latin fortuna (“fate, luck”).
Fortuna, the Roman goddess of luck (cf. the Greek Tyche)


The word "fortunate" is equivalent to the Greek "Ευτυχιος" (Eutychios) which is the name of the young man in Acts who fell out of the window and who St. Paul raised as well as several Saints:
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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2011, 07:59:29 PM »

How “modern Greeks” ruin they life and change language and perception is not my concern.

Jesus same now and 2000 years ago.

Yes, you are correct. Language does change.
I actually do understand what you are trying to say, and I'm sorry that some people have misunderstood you.
I also understand problems of translating both mακαριοι and ευλογημενος as "blessed" since it doesn't distinguish between Christ as the One we praise as ευλογημενος ο ερχομενος εν ονοματι κυριου ("blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord") and the meek who are mακαριοι because they will inherit the Earth.
Rather than "blissful" though, I would translate mακαριοι as "fortunate". Here's my logic.
Lets stay with Koine. If we keep with the idea that mακαριοι should be translated as "blissful" which is an adjective, how should we translate μακαρισμος which is the noun? If we follow the correct grammar it must be translated as "blissfulness". But if we translate it thus, we then have a problem in translating Romans 4:6-9

καθαπερ και δαβιδ λεγει τον μακαρισμον του ανθρωπου ω ο θεος λογιζεται δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων
μακαριοι ων αφεθησαν αι ανομιαι και ων επεκαλυφθησαν αι αμαρτιαι
μακαριος ανηρ ω ου μη λογισηται κυριος αμαρτιαν
ο μακαρισμος ουν ουτος επι την περιτομην η και επι την ακροβυστιαν λεγομεν γαρ οτι ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην


Which, if you translate as you suggest, using "blissful" for μακαριος, we get:

just as David also describes the blissfulness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Blissful are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blissful is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blissfulness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.


This is awkward, especially in the last verse which talks about "blissfulness coming upon" people.

However, if we translate μακαριος as "fortunate", then the noun is "fortune" and we get:

just as David also describes the fortune of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Fortunate are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Fortunate is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this fortune then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.



For me use of Fortune – Is not appropriate.


From Latin fortuna (“fate, luck”).
Fortuna, the Roman goddess of luck (cf. the Greek Tyche)


The word "fortunate" is equivalent to the Greek "Ευτυχιος" (Eutychios) which is the name of the young man in Acts who fell out of the window and who St. Paul raised as well as several Saints:


I not get at all. What you try to say?


Ευ- τυχιος" (Eu-tych-ios)







Tyche - was the goddess of fortune and personification of luck in - (Τύχη, meaning "luck" in Greek, Roman equivalent: Fortuna) was the presiding tutelary deity that governed the fortune and prosperity of a city, its destiny.






What way it relevant to mακαριοι?
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 10:45:25 PM »

I not get at all. What you try to say?

I am locking this thread until such time as Alive sends me a pm that states his credentials to debate the proper use of the English language. Sentence like the one above make it appear that you lack knowledge of the basics of the English language and, are therefore unqualified to enter any kind of authoritative opinion.

As a personal opinion... I believe that this instance on using the word "blissful" is related to a new age heresy that is developing. It can be seen in such shows as "V" where the term "bliss" is used to denote  being in the presence of the V queen. It is also a term that is used heavily by modern gnostics who use certain Zen principles.
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2011, 09:52:58 PM »

Up to this point in my career here on OC.net, I've never (to my recollection) posted in a thread that someone else locked (which I have the ability to do as a mod); however, I want to commit my thoughts before I forget them.

Alive, your argument rests on the premise that "Blessed" in English is a simple, non-nuanced word that cannot mean different (whether vastly or slightly) things in different contextx.

Take the word "Love," which in English can mean many different things.  While I lament the fact that English does not have the versatility that Greek does when referring to Love, the word does indeed fill many roles: friendship/philia which is "love," intense passion/eros which is "love," kindred affection/parental affection/storgi which is "love," self-sacrificing, pure, divine love/agape which is "love."  In English we know that the word "love" is used with different specific meanings in different contexts, and in Greek we use different words to denote the different meanings (although this has changed over time).

So, too, in English we can used "Blessed" to mean different ideas: conferring benefit (ευλογω) and the state of being happy/blessed/"to be envied" (μακαριος).  You do the English language, as well as the hundreds upon hundreds of scholars, linguists, and translators who have used the word "Blessed" for both, a great disservice by insisting upon a limitation in English where it does not exist.  There are places where English is cumbersome and constrictive compared to other languages, but this is not one of them.

Blissful, on the other hand, can in English mean things we do not wish to be confused with the meaning conveyed by the text in Greek; we must be careful with the connotations of ignorance, ecstasy, etc. that come with the words "bliss" and "blissful."  We do not find the same pitfalls in our nuanced definitions of "Blessed," which, IMO when considered with the other information provided by members in this thread and what I've stated above, makes it a far superior word to use for both μακαριος and ευλογημενος.
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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