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Author Topic: Urgent - WR monk needs lodgings in Britain for mission  (Read 2785 times) Average Rating: 0
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SubdeaconDavid
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« on: January 15, 2011, 08:24:28 AM »

http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/

Australian missionary monk Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) is appealing for URGENT help with lodgings on his English missionary blog-site.  He is on an extended missionary trip from Australia to Great Britain to evangelise for WRO.  Please see the website for contact details if you can help.  Hieromonk Michael is over 70 and this is a podvig of missionary endeavour for anyone at such an advanced age to be planting missions amongst the heterodox. It would be a great sadness if no-one comes forth to help this motivated monk, far from his Australian monastery home!





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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 09:26:24 AM »

Get your facts straight - Fr Michael (Wood) is not on an extended "missionary trip"  he is resident in Bournemouth where he has had a residence, car furniture, office since 2008.  He is appointed by Decree as the Metropolitan's Assistant for the UK.  The missions in UK-Europe now number three with two Priests and a third coming. And he doesn't think seventy is an "advanced age" either. He does however need to find new and exceedingly cheap accommodation from November this year.
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »

Get your facts straight - Fr Michael (Wood) is not on an extended "missionary trip"  he is resident in Bournemouth where he has had a residence, car furniture, office since 2008.  He is appointed by Decree as the Metropolitan's Assistant for the UK.  The missions in UK-Europe now number three with two Priests and a third coming. And he doesn't think seventy is an "advanced age" either. He does however need to find new and exceedingly cheap accommodation from November this year.

 Father bless.  "Get your facts straight".

What exactly was not "straight" Father?

  • Was I factually incorrect to use "Mansbridge-Wood"? Should I be using "Wood" or is it both?  Surely they are not inter-changeable? The Directory of ROCOR and the First Hierarch's Decree appointing you as His Eminence's assistant for the Western-Rite for the United Kingdom, Australia & New Zealand uses "Mansbridge-Wood".
What else is not "straight"?

  • That you have the monastery of St. Petroc in South Hobart in Tasmania?
    That your own congregation at St. Dyfan's Mission are expecting you back as their parish priest?
That the appeal wasn't URGENT even though your own http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/ says : "Pray for Fr Gregory (who needs a secular job urgently) and for me (who needs accommodation urgently) as we start this work. Pray for clergy to volunteer  and pray for funds to support us. "


You write an appeal for accommodation lodgings, saying nothing about being now a resident of the United Kingdom with office, car etc.  so don't blame me Father for failing to state that you have emigrated to Great Britain when you don't say so.

Nor did I say that you were decrepit or incapable because of your age - I pointed out that this is a mighty undertaking for any septuagenarian which made you perhaps even more deserving of assistance with accommodation.

I am at a loss to see where I am factually wrong by repeating an appeal from your own Western-rite missionary blog-site and wish you all the success Father in your UK residence.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 04:56:29 PM »

Well this turned out well  Undecided
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2011, 05:02:06 PM »

Well this turned out well  Undecided
Huh Yes - I thought by repeating an urgent appeal for help I was doing the needful to try and get someone to assist Hieromonk Michael out of desperate strife. Obviously I got it wrong. I shan't again!!
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 05:27:43 PM »

Get your facts straight - Fr Michael (Wood) is not on an extended "missionary trip"  he is resident in Bournemouth where he has had a residence, car furniture, office since 2008.  He is appointed by Decree as the Metropolitan's Assistant for the UK.  The missions in UK-Europe now number three with two Priests and a third coming. And he doesn't think seventy is an "advanced age" either. He does however need to find new and exceedingly cheap accommodation from November this year.

 Father bless.  "Get your facts straight".

What exactly was not "straight" Father?

  • Was I factually incorrect to use "Mansbridge-Wood"? Should I be using "Wood" or is it both?  Are they inter-changeable? The Directory of ROCOR and the First Hierarch's Decree appointing you as His Eminence's assistant for the Western-Rite for the United Kingdom, Australia & New Zealand uses "Mansbridge-Wood".
What else is not "straight"?

  • That you have the monastery of St. Petroc in South Hobart in Tasmania?
    That your own congregation at St. Dyfan's Mission are expecting you back as their parish priest?
    That the appeal wasn't URGENT even though your own
http://forwardinorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/ says : "Pray for Fr Gregory (who needs a secular job urgently) and for me (who needs accommodation urgently) as we start this work. Pray for clergy to volunteer  and pray for funds to support us. "


You write an appeal for accommodation lodgings, saying nothing about being now a resident of the United Kingdom with office, car etc.  so don't blame me Father for repeating an appeal that omits these details in your own blogsite.

Nor did I say that you were decrepit or incapable because of your age - I pointed out that this is a mighty undertaking for any septuagenarian which made you perhaps even more deserving of assistance with accommodation.

I am at a loss to see where I am factually wrong by repeating an appeal from your own Western-rite missionary blog-site and wish you all the success Father in your UK residency.  
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 06:17:30 PM »

Well this turned out well  Undecided
I love British humor!  Cheesy

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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 06:38:53 PM »

Begging on the Internet for cheap digs seems rather infra dig for somebody who has been assigned as Assistant to the Metropolitan.  Surely financial assistance should be coming from New York or the diocese.  And I am dubious about "cheap" digs since an elderly man in his 70s and with health problems should not be expected to live in cold and cramped accommodation.  Sickness will undermine his work in the mission field.
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 05:53:02 AM »

Begging on the Internet for cheap digs seems rather infra dig for somebody who has been assigned as Assistant to the Metropolitan.  Surely financial assistance should be coming from New York or the diocese.  And I am dubious about "cheap" digs since an elderly man in his 70s and with health problems should not be expected to live in cold and cramped accommodation.  Sickness will undermine his work in the mission field.
Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) clearly has courage and stamina, especially for his age.  If the western-rite is so important to the Orthodox Church why does it have no financial backing?  Why do they worship in rented rooms and halls?  It seems crazy to do this when you can simply walk into a well appointed Byzantine rite church and worship with a church full of people.
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 07:45:01 AM »

Why do they worship in rented rooms and halls?  It seems crazy to do this when you can simply walk into a well appointed Byzantine rite church and worship with a church full of people.

Because bishops won't necessarily allow WR services in regular churches. That's what happened in London.
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 07:56:30 AM »

Why do they worship in rented rooms and halls?  It seems crazy to do this when you can simply walk into a well appointed Byzantine rite church and worship with a church full of people.

Because bishops won't necessarily allow WR services in regular churches. That's what happened in London.
I would assume that Bishops don't allow it for appropriate and good reasons.  Maybe it has nothing to do with the Western-rite as a concept but it is about some of the characters in it?  The Western-rite in the modern era i.e. 800-1000 years after it was lost is a new and in many ways contrived thing.  The western-rite has many things stacked against it:
    • It is almost impossible to find 2 western-rite priests who agree on liturgy
      The rift between the so-called Sarum use and the so-called Roman or Latin use is venomous
      The numbers are so tiny - the Western rite have perhaps 0.1% of world Orthodoxy in their ranks
      the western-rite has been tainted by the vagante modus of some of its antecedents
      There has been Anglo-centric phyletism in some WR circles that is virulently anti Slav and anti-Greek
      There has been a lack of humility and a presumption of right inherent in some WR circles
      There has been scholastic fraud in some of the elaborate claims trying to back up post-Great Schism claims by some WR proponents
      Behaviour speaks louder than words in relation to some claiming that they don't want to be a Uniate WR Church within Orthodoxy
    Not all Western-rite people and clerics are in these categories or all of them by any means!  There is sincerity and the love of God in the ministry of some and in some parishes.  I think we need to admit that the failure of the various jurisdictions that house the Western-rite - especially ROCOR ( maybe 25% of the WR) and the US Self-Governing Antiochian Archdiocese (maybe 70%) as well as the 5% contained under the Churches of the MP, Serbia and elsewhere to fund the Western-rite speaks volumes.  

    Ultimately Orthodoxy is about the supra-national people of God.  If we can worship in the vernacular in the Byzantine rite it is hard to say that re-creations of what some scholars - and not all think the pre-Schism liturgy looked like, 1000 years after the events of the Great Schism is contrived, and practically speaking, unnecessary.

    If Western-rite people want the Byzantine-rite to take them as credible they must:
    • Allow meaningful scholars and Orthodox liturgists to really unpick and evaluate their liturgical texts.  After all most of them are NEW, i.e. 10-30 years old at best.
      Understand that claims require historical and documentary proof in regards to liturgy, continuity and especially in relation to even recent events such as the so-called licensing of the BCP based WR mass/liturgy.
      Don't obfuscate.  The independent 'Orthodox' parishes under Archbishop Bondi who became Orthodox were not an Anglican jurisdiction despite what some Russian and other WR sites say.
      Ask themselves why the majority of Byzantine-rite clergy and laity are sceptical of the claims of the WR.

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    « Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 08:57:28 AM »

    Here's a secret that you won't like Sub Deacon:  ROCOR is BROKE - it can't even pay for the Bishop's journey to Russia for the mandatory meeting of ALL Russian Orthodox Bishops.  Its BROKE - there is no money.  Haiti took the last of it.  Get that into your head.  And by the way OCA is as good as broke too.  The Greeks have money but they guard it even from other Greeks.  The Antiochians have very little spare cash.  That is the way of Orthodoxy in the west.

    Right at the moment I may have access to more cash than some bishops I know - and we are acquiring property too.  I take NO money personally - I rely on my state pension - hence my problems in paying the high rentals demanded in the UK.  But we need cash and help nonetheless for the scale of work that we are doing - most of which is not disclosed to you, Fr. Aidan or Fr. Ambrose because we well know that you will use even the most positive things that we do to criticise us in your efforts to convince some people of your super-Orthodoxy.  Western Rite is growing in ROCOR despite your "best" efforts.
     
    You Sub Deacon ran away from Orthodoxy and only came back after ten years and being ordained by the Anglicans.  I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.
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    « Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 10:58:04 AM »

    Say! As an aside, what's the latest on reunion with the Catholics? 
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    « Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 11:18:44 AM »

    I believe we already have a thread covering this subject.  It is called, "Why isn't the Western Rite thriving?".
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    « Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 11:44:48 AM »

    You Sub Deacon ran away from Orthodoxy and only came back after ten years and being ordained by the Anglicans.  I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    Very interesting. If true (and I have no reason to doubt it, FrMichael), I would like to know more.

    SubdeaconDavid, your biography as shared here on OC.net appears to be this: raised Anglican, converted to Orthodox, converted to Anglican, converted to Orthodox. Have you posted anywhere about your reasons for each previous conversion? If not, would you be willing to share them now?
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    « Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 11:47:17 AM »

    Why do they worship in rented rooms and halls?  It seems crazy to do this when you can simply walk into a well appointed Byzantine rite church and worship with a church full of people.

    The Mission I attend has services in a rented Old-catholic chapel despite having Byzantine services.
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    « Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 01:04:46 PM »

    I know of NO WRITE mission or parish that uses rented rooms or halls - this is another of the nasty little things that our opponents like to use.  All our missions use churches - mostly former Roman Catholic, occasionally former Anglican which we adapt to Orthodox usage.  I have however known of Eastern Rite missions using rented halls - fifty years ago and very recently.  I also know of Eastern Rite Parishes using the basement of a Priests house as a chapel and using a garden shed as a chapel and using converted garages.  Such comments are evidence of the ignorance of the writer.
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    « Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 01:32:31 PM »

    It is a bit much though - I still have the emails the SubDeacon sent me late last year asking me to help him get back into the Orthodox Church. He came to my office and we talked - exchanged more emails - I wrote to the Metropolitan suggesting that he take him back. Then within three months of my help he publicly turns against me - without any provocation from me.  Some of my parishioners then asked me to stop him and his friend from trying to steal them away to the Eastern Rite.

    Maybe its because he's trying to prove himself elsewhere, perhaps he thinks that if he's seen to be sympathetic to WRITE it'll look as if he's still an Anglican at heart - maybe he's very concerned with image.
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    « Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 01:41:28 PM »

    It is a bit much though - I still have the emails the SubDeacon sent me late last year asking me to help him get back into the Orthodox Church. He came to my office and we talked - exchanged more emails - I wrote to the Metropolitan suggesting that he take him back. Then within three months of my help he publicly turns against me - without any provocation from me.  Some of my parishioners then asked me to stop him and his friend from trying to steal them away to the Eastern Rite.

    Maybe its because he's trying to prove himself elsewhere, perhaps he thinks that if he's seen to be sympathetic to WRITE it'll look as if he's still an Anglican at heart - maybe he's very concerned with image.
    Fr. Michael,

    You've made it readily apparent that you have some personal grievances against one of our posters. That's all between you and him, as long as you keep it offline. Please don't bring it to this forum, though. Regardless of the truth or lack thereof in what you say, what you are posting here constitutes personal attacks and ad hominems, which are not permitted at OC.net.

    Thank you in advance for considering this matter.

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    « Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 02:58:26 PM »

    I’m sure Fr Michael has more to do than continue this as his plate is filling up rapidly with commitments although perhaps others may wish to continue posting apparently innocuous messages about the WR which they then use to air their own issues with it. For my part all I would like to ask is that we stop referring to Fr Michael’s age and health as if he was in some advanced state of decrepitude. It isn’t necessary, it isn’t polite, and it isn’t true. If anyone here is short of sick people to pray for I can send them a list along with the Akathist to St Luke the Surgeon so please give Fr Michael a break on the subject of his health and his ability to do his job.

    Regards,
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    « Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 07:30:08 PM »

    I know of NO WRITE mission or parish that uses rented rooms or halls - this is another of the nasty little things that our opponents like to use. 


    Father, maybe there have been changes since you left Tasmania but several places come to mind - Alexander House?  Saint Petroc Monastery in a rented flat, a small rented Anglican church in Cambridge, Hobart?

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    « Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 07:31:44 PM »

    Quote from: FrMichael link=topic=32902.msg522873#msg522873 date=[s
    I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    could you please take this to private correspondence? Please don't use this as an arena for personal attacks.  thank you.  someone moving toward Orthodoxy.
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    « Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »

    Say! As an aside, what's the latest on reunion with the Catholics? 
    The latest is prayer!  The Orthodox are praying that the Pope will come to the realisation that he has to renounce papal supremacy and papal infallibility to help bring about union.
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    « Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 07:47:29 PM »

    Here's a secret that you won't like Sub Deacon:  ROCOR is BROKE - it can't even pay for the Bishop's journey to Russia for the mandatory meeting of ALL Russian Orthodox Bishops.  Its BROKE - there is no money.  Haiti took the last of it.  Get that into your head.  And by the way OCA is as good as broke too.   
    Those are pretty stong statements.  What do you know about the finances of the ROCOR and the OCA that you are not making public.  You are not in the OCA I know but do you have access to their financial statements?
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    « Reply #24 on: January 22, 2011, 12:46:03 AM »

    Here's a secret that you won't like Sub Deacon:  ROCOR is BROKE - it can't even pay for the Bishop's journey to Russia for the mandatory meeting of ALL Russian Orthodox Bishops.  Its BROKE - there is no money.  Haiti took the last of it.  Get that into your head.  And by the way OCA is as good as broke too.   
    Those are pretty stong statements.  What do you know about the finances of the ROCOR and the OCA that you are not making public.  You are not in the OCA I know but do you have access to their financial statements?


    You can find financial information about the OCA online, for example
    for Jan 2010 - Sept 2010:
    http://www.oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-1021-q3financialreport.pdf

    The summary at the beginning suggests an "Operating Surplus" of some
    $85,839.09 as of September 30, 2010.

    As for ROCOR, I don't know if they share any financial information
    on the Internet.

    As with any claim made on the Forum Fr Michael will need to substantiate
    it by giving his references.

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    « Reply #25 on: January 22, 2011, 06:13:05 AM »

    Quote from: FrMichael link=topic=32902.msg522873#msg522873 date=[s
    I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    could you please take this to private correspondence? Please don't use this as an arena for personal attacks.  thank you.  someone moving toward Orthodoxy.

    Dear Riverbear

    What an odd very first post. You may well be right, however, in thinking this belongs in private correspondence or even in no correspondence at all but as someone who has been on and off Orthodox online fora almost since they started may I offer you some sisterly advice and suggest that you steel yourself for the future, perhaps with extra prayers and some good Scots porridge for breakfast, because Fr Michael and David are teddy bears compared to most of what you are going to find online.

    All the best,
    Margaret
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    « Reply #26 on: January 22, 2011, 06:44:00 AM »


     And by the way OCA is as good as broke too. 

    Dear Father Michael,

    On what information are you basing that statement?

    The OCA finances are posted online, with latest report here:
     http://www.oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-1021-q3financialreport.pdf

    Unless something has changed radically since September 30th (and the period
    of the report includes the extraordinary expense of the legal settlement in
    May), it is highly unlikely that the OCA "has only $80,000 in the bank."

    A quick and sloppy reading of the report might misinterpret the operating
    surplus after the settlement, which is around $85,000, as what's "in the
    bank,"  but that would be incorrect.  Total cash on hand was about $380K.
    Revenues from diocesan assessments were running right on budget at an
    average of $600K per quarter.

    Your information about the OCA being as good as broke may not be
    accurate and that calls into question the accuaracy of the statement
    that the Russian Church Abroad is already broke.

    Would you be able to back up your statements?
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    « Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 08:27:59 AM »

    You Sub Deacon ran away from Orthodoxy and only came back after ten years and being ordained by the Anglicans.  I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    Very interesting. If true (and I have no reason to doubt it, FrMichael), I would like to know more.

    SubdeaconDavid, your biography as shared here on OC.net appears to be this: raised Anglican, converted to Orthodox, converted to Anglican, converted to Orthodox. Have you posted anywhere about your reasons for each previous conversion? If not, would you be willing to share them now?
     

    I am more than happy to share my story, if only to warn you of the dangers that can occur when personal judgement and emotions get in the way of decision-making in accord with obedience to Christ in the Church.  I was raised in the Church of England in Australia which renamed itself the Anglican Church of Australia. I was an acolyte aka altar boy and in that situation was sexually abused by Anglican priests.   This at age 12 was life and faith impacting.  Perhaps it was more accurate to say life-long impacting.  Combine gross sexual trauma with the use of the sacrament of confession (some Anglicans hold confession to be one of the 7 sacraments) to seal my silence and the damage was at the time profound.  The ordination of women by the US Anglican Church - PECUSA/ECusa/Episcopal Church at age 17 led me to read then Fr. Kallistos Ware's book and then some more and approach Fr. Michael Protopopov (now Mitred Archpriest Michael Protopopov) and I was received into Orthodoxy in 1978.

    This was done with conviction that there is only One Catholic and Apostolic Church not an Anglican, Roman and Orthodox branch.  So one and only conversion to Orthodoxy.  In 1994 I was made a subdeacon by Archbishop Alypy.  In 1995 we received the 1st residential priest since 1973 in our parish.  This coincided with me confronting the Anglican Church from 1996 onwards about what had happened to me.  I forced them, with others, aided by some very ethical Anglican priests around Australia to have an inquiry called Not the Way of Christ and to compensate victims.  I subsequently assisted the police to send one Archdeacon to prison for abusing 11 boys - one of them me.

    Abusive behaviour is something that I was and am intolerant of, so when a clumsy/insensitive/theologically inept Orthodox priest in confession asked me did I enjoy the abuse and did I sin in the abuse, I could not tolerate this and walked out of the Church, in 1999.  It took me 10 years to come back to Orthodoxy, knowing the entire time that I was wrong to have left, but feeling that I had dug my own spiritual grave.

    In trying to compensate, I looked at Anglicanism, to try and find the peace of Christ.  In doing so I looked at Continuing Anglicanism i.e. those traditional Anglicans who rejected women priests and liberal theology and who in 1978 had 3 traditionalist bishops consecrate bishops to continue Anglican lineage.  I was subsequently received an ordained to the diaconate.

    I apologise if this pushes buttons for any of you who have had the experience of being traumatised and abused as children, especially if so by clergy or church workers. My conscience told me incessantly that I was in the wrong situation and that the only answer was to come home to Orthodoxy.  Pride, shame and guilt at walking out on a loving and caring parish burned my heart and soul.  

    It is correct that I corresponded with Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) / (Wood) and met once with him in his office in the Alexander Centre ecumenical religious centre of the University of Tasmania.  Hieromonk Michael did kindly offer to get me back to Orthodoxy via the Western-rite and urged me to come to his services in the ecumenical chapel (St. Dyfan's western-rite mission) which I did not do because firstly I was not released from my obligations to the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) http://www.anglicancatholic.org/  Secondly I knew in my heart after 21 years in ROCOR's 'eastern-rite', not even knowing of the 'western-rite' that it was impossible to contemplate being western-rite and not going to the ROCOR that I knew.

    i also could not understand or appreciate the use of the Reformation BCP with some Orthodox additions/deletions in the Western-rite use in Antioch and ROCOR.  I accept and understand that the western-rite is blessed within my own Church, however there are a variety of views ranging from enthusiastic acceptance to views much closer to those expressed by Archpriest Andrew of ROCOR's UK Diocese who writes: St John was the only Russian missionary who ever worked in Western Europe. He was quite unique. And he is of course the only Russian confessor-saint we have ever had here. In the 1950s Western people still had a sense of rite. This was not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic, but St John allowed changes to it and accepted it as a Western Orthodox rite. Sadly, this sense of rite is no longer with us. Today there is no such thing as a Western rite, because Roman Catholicism destroyed it at the Second Vatican Council. True, it is still possible to revive rites through archaeological restoration, but these are not living rites, just as the Uniat rite is not a living rite. Sadly, such ritual restoration can attract fantasy, so that there are spiritual dangers attached to such movements. A rite must always be living, having continuity with the past.

    In the ACC - traditionalist Anglicanism I found some clergy who were saintly in any language.  I also found in continuing Anglicanism charlatans and opportunists, men who craved to be bishops, whose jurisdiction consisted more of on-paper, or perhaps on the internet organisations or missions or societies but which lacked that precious commodity - real committed laity in decent numbers.  Some of these were vagante or ex-vagante - men whose irregular (in Anglican terms) orders were rectified by ordination sub-conditioni (conditional re-ordination) by orthodox Anglican bishops.  Wikipedia notes:Episcopi vagantes (singular: episcopus vagans, Latin for wandering bishops or stray bishops) are persons who have been consecrated as Christian bishops outside the structures and canon law of the established churches, and who are not in communion with any generally recognized diocese. Also included are those who have in communion with them small groups that appear to exist solely for the bishop's sake.[1] Those described as wandering bishops often see the term as pejorative.
    The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church mentions as the main streams of succession deriving from episcopi vagantes in the twentieth century those founded by Arnold Mathew, Joseph René Vilatte, and Leon Chechemian.[1] Others that could be added are those derived from Aftimios Ofiesh, Carlos Duarte Costa, and Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopi_vagantes

    Some of these vagantes were fixated on liturgy - the "bells and smells" of the mass, the language, the rite and seemed far more concerned about vestments than people.

    So in terms of my story, I must repeat that I was - and am grateful to Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) for encouraging my return to Orthodoxy. Most of all I am indebted to Mitred Archpriest Michael Protopopov, our Dean  and Rector (since 2001) for closing the circle and bringing me home to Orthodoxy. I trust that the eastern-rite and Western-rite of Orthodoxy share joy in the conversion of any soul not to a rite but to Orthodoxy.  I  wonder at some of the language used  which seems to come from the perspective of eastern and western being not brothers but rivals in the faith, for souls, for money and for influence in some of the arguments by the pro and anti WR advocates.  I include myself in this.

    It is no easy thing to share stories of childhood trauma or recall the damage that it did to my life.  It was costly in every way and required enormous psychological effort to move to where I am now.  I work with homeless people, who need compassion, care and validation of their needs and their pain and support to grow and move on from suffering.  I am as intolerant of abuse in all its forms today as I was sitting in court seeing a pedophile sentenced to prison for almost 8 years. If you've been abused by a priest in any way - physically, mentally, psychologically and worst of all, spiritually your radar is always on the lookout, and sensitive to behaviours.  Sometimes obedience can be challenging because of mistrust and suspicion of behaviours.  

    They may be wrong - but plenty of Orthodox clergy, laity and theologians remain unconvinced about the place of western-rite Orthodoxy in a Church where 99% + use the Byzantine liturgical and spiritual forms.  Frankly this view is as legitimate as those like Fr. Michael who enthusiastically and naturally enough advocate for his beloved western-rite. I also think it incumbent on the western-rite to put out papers, produce evidence and demonstrate the utility and value of the western-rite to the universal Church. And no, I don't aspire to be judge and jury on that one.  Western Christendom especially in Anglican format is too close to too much pain and too many mistakes, in others and in me.

    Mistakes are the mark of our sinfulness and fallen natures.  I may have run away from Orthodoxy for 10 years but I came back.  In those 10 years at least I have stayed married to one wife, had two beautiful children, done some good in confronting child abuse and done a huge amount of personal growth and healing without which I could not have summoned any repentance to come home to ROCOR and to receive grace and life anew.

    Tomorrow's Gospel for St. Theophan tells of the Good Shepherd, of Whose shelter and mercy I oray I will always acknowledge needing: John 10:9-16

    I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
    10

    The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
    11

    I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
    12

    But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

    13

    The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
    14

    I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
    15

    As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.


    So I aspire to be as the prodigal son.  I've seen the world away from Russian Orthodoxy - secularism, eastern spirituality, atheism and western Christianity and all of them in varying ways and degrees are spiritual bereft, outside the grace filled Orthodox Church.  

    I don't deny the energy, enthusiasm and passion of Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) for his missionary work in Britain, Australia and continental Europe.  Like him I pray to St. Augustine of Canterbury for a flowering of Orthodoxy within the British peoples, and the British Commonwealth and trust that the Lord will give him the right measure of spiritual blessing.
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    « Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 03:16:57 PM »

    i also could not understand or appreciate the use of the Reformation BCP with some Orthodox additions/deletions in the Western-rite use in Antioch and ROCOR.

    I've always enjoyed Ben Johnson's witty retort to this position:

    "Most importantly, St. Tikhon's Liturgy is not simply the "Book of Common Prayer" rite. The Orthodox Church adapted this material in accordance with the Russian Observations Upon the American Prayer Book to bring it into liturgical and theological conformity with Holy Orthodoxy. Not only were these necessary changes made, but the liturgical commission of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate added rich ceremonial and prayers expressing the Church's liturgical heritage, especially reverence for the Real Presence. Similar to the Anglo-Catholic movement of the day, it incorporated the Western structure of the Mass. Asperges, Introits, graduals, alleluias, tracts, sequences, offertory prayers, prayers at the foot of the altar, communion verses, post-communion prayers, Agnus Deis, Non Sum Dignuses, Last Gospels, and other devotions reappeared where the Protestant Reformation had done its damage, and the Gloria returned to its traditional position: following the Kyrie on most Sundays (outside certain penitential seasons). This was a full, glorious, comprehensive, catholic, Apostolic, and Orthodox liturgy.

    No honest human being could describe this as "The Book of Common Prayer." Although Anglo-Catholics would recognize it, and most Western Christians feel an instant and familiar sense of worship while praying it, St. Tikhon's Liturgy far exceeded any edition of the BCP, whatever Cranmer's role in drafting any particular rendition thereof. In other words, describing the Liturgy of St. Tikhon as "Cranmer's Rite" (or a "Reformation" rite) is like describing the United States of America as "Jamestown."

    Remember the fallacious logic, the faulty premise, and the blatant misrepresentation the next time you hear St. Tikhon's Liturgy described only as "the Cranmerian Rite," a charge born either of historical ignorance or ecclesiastical envy."

    Many will throw around the "Reformation" as if this was where the content of the BCP originated, which anyone who knows anything about its development knows is plain wrong.  The fact is, there's not a single portion of the authorized Rite of St. Tikhon (or the English Liturgy of ROCOR) that does not have its source in the pre-Schism West.
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    « Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 03:21:22 PM »

    You Sub Deacon ran away from Orthodoxy and only came back after ten years and being ordained by the Anglicans.  I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    Very interesting. If true (and I have no reason to doubt it, FrMichael), I would like to know more.

    SubdeaconDavid, your biography as shared here on OC.net appears to be this: raised Anglican, converted to Orthodox, converted to Anglican, converted to Orthodox. Have you posted anywhere about your reasons for each previous conversion? If not, would you be willing to share them now?
     

    I am more than happy to share my story...

    [quote edited only for space-saving]

    Western Christendom especially in Anglican format is too close to too much pain and too many mistakes, in others and in me.

    Thank you for sharing this. Those experiences were horrible. It is obvious that you have come far in coping with the memories and overcoming the effects.  It is obvious that you continue to struggle with them, too. The intensity of your opinion of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy makes a lot more sense now.

    Lord, have mercy on your servant, Subdeacon David.
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    « Reply #30 on: January 22, 2011, 08:42:44 PM »

    I would like to respond to this statement:

    "The fact is, there's not a single portion of the authorized Rite of St. Tikhon (or the English Liturgy of ROCOR) that does not have its source in the pre-Schism West."

    This statement is factually untrue and easy to disprove. When I get a little time, I plan to rebut it, in order to set the record straight. The cause of Western rite, which is very near to my heart, is not aided when people make entirely untrue statements which have no factual or historical basis. I will address the untrue statement without a touch of anything "ad hominem," addressing only the actual words quoted.

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    « Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 09:02:47 PM »

    I would like to touch upon what transpired in Subdeacon David's confession, as he wrote about it. I wish only to stress how much tremendous care we priests must have, in hearing confessions. It's similar to brain surgery, where the slightest miscalculation or inadvertent move, could cause great harm.

    I've heard thousands upon thousands of confessions over the years, in churches of various jurisdictions. Well, once I was hearing the confession of a young person who wasn't doing a good job of explaining. But the thing--whatever it was--seemed to be really troubling him/her. It was exceedingly vague, but seemed sexual in nature. This penitent kept hemming and hawwing and trying to get at something I wasn't understanding in the least. Wanting to be protective, I asked another question or two, avoiding entering upon anything indelicate. Each answer I received, indicated yet more that this was probably something sexual, and potentially serious and abusive, something that could recur and cause harm. Therefore, I didn't dare shrug it off, and yet the vagueness was not getting any clearer. Finally, at a loss, and thinking I was being as delicate as I possibly could be under the circumstances, I asked, "So what did [this other person] do... perhaps kiss you?" The poor penitent looked at me in horror, as if I'd jumped into some completely unrelated area, and said, "No, no, NOTHING like THAT!" And I felt terrrible for misreading the situation. I never did grasp--not in the least!--what kind of sin was being spoken of, but it was clearly time to move along!

    The pitfalls of being a father confessor are many and grave, so, Subd. David, please forgive that priest who made inquiries which caused upheaval. I hope you have now a very experienced and wise father confessor who can support and heal your spirit. Through the prayers of the Most Pure and Blameless Mother of God.
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    « Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 10:43:44 PM »

    I would like to touch upon what transpired in Subdeacon David's confession, as he wrote about it. I wish only to stress how much tremendous care we priests must have, in hearing confessions. It's similar to brain surgery, where the slightest miscalculation or inadvertent move, could cause great harm.

    I've heard thousands upon thousands of confessions over the years, in churches of various jurisdictions. Well, once I was hearing the confession of a young person who wasn't doing a good job of explaining. But the thing--whatever it was--seemed to be really troubling him/her. It was exceedingly vague, but seemed sexual in nature. This penitent kept hemming and hawwing and trying to get at something I wasn't understanding in the least. Wanting to be protective, I asked another question or two, avoiding entering upon anything indelicate. Each answer I received, indicated yet more that this was probably something sexual, and potentially serious and abusive, something that could recur and cause harm. Therefore, I didn't dare shrug it off, and yet the vagueness was not getting any clearer. Finally, at a loss, and thinking I was being as delicate as I possibly could be under the circumstances, I asked, "So what did [this other person] do... perhaps kiss you?" The poor penitent looked at me in horror, as if I'd jumped into some completely unrelated area, and said, "No, no, NOTHING like THAT!" And I felt terrrible for misreading the situation. I never did grasp--not in the least!--what kind of sin was being spoken of, but it was clearly time to move along!

    The pitfalls of being a father confessor are many and grave, so, Subd. David, please forgive that priest who made inquiries which caused upheaval. I hope you have now a very experienced and wise father confessor who can support and heal your spirit. Through the prayers of the Most Pure and Blameless Mother of God.
    Forgiveness is always a challenge under these kinds of circumstances especially when it involves forgiveness for a priest who doesn't grasp what their insensitivity and ignorance means.  Nonetheless it is something to work towards and I hope I have adequately forgiven them - although I would never go to them for confession or counsel if I came across them again.

    Thanks for your kind and thoughtful words Father.
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    « Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 11:54:18 PM »

    You Sub Deacon ran away from Orthodoxy and only came back after ten years and being ordained by the Anglicans.  I do wish you'd tone down your attempts at super-Orthodoxy JUST SIX MONTHS after you came to me a Western Rite Priest to help you get back into Orthodoxy - which I did by writing to the Metropolitan on your behalf.  Here's how you repay me.

    Very interesting. If true (and I have no reason to doubt it, FrMichael), I would like to know more.

    SubdeaconDavid, your biography as shared here on OC.net appears to be this: raised Anglican, converted to Orthodox, converted to Anglican, converted to Orthodox. Have you posted anywhere about your reasons for each previous conversion? If not, would you be willing to share them now?
     

    I am more than happy to share my story...

    [quote edited only for space-saving]

    Western Christendom especially in Anglican format is too close to too much pain and too many mistakes, in others and in me.

    Thank you for sharing this. Those experiences were horrible. It is obvious that you have come far in coping with the memories and overcoming the effects.  It is obvious that you continue to struggle with them, too. The intensity of your opinion of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy makes a lot more sense now.

    Lord, have mercy on your servant, Subdeacon David.
    Thank you for your kindness and prayers.  May the Lord have mercy on us all and make Orthodoxy truly one, whatever our nationality, whatever our position on the western-rite.  May the Lord reconcile all in obedience to the Church.
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    « Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 02:36:07 AM »

    I would like to respond to this statement:

    "The fact is, there's not a single portion of the authorized Rite of St. Tikhon (or the English Liturgy of ROCOR) that does not have its source in the pre-Schism West."

    This statement is factually untrue and easy to disprove. When I get a little time, I plan to rebut it, in order to set the record straight. The cause of Western rite, which is very near to my heart, is not aided when people make entirely untrue statements which have no factual or historical basis. I will address the untrue statement without a touch of anything "ad hominem," addressing only the actual words quoted.

    Fr. Hieromonk Aidan+
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    This is from something I'm sure you've read, Fr. Aidan, but I'll post it for those who haven't.  It is from Lux Occidentalis and examines the antiquity of the Rite of St. Tikhon. I'd be interested to see what your points of contention are with this.
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    « Reply #35 on: January 23, 2011, 02:38:09 AM »

    If the “Rite of St. Tikhon” is more suspect, because of its history among English speaking people, than the “Rite of St. Gregory,” then it should be examined for its antiquity versus Bishop Anthony’s theory that these Rites are “not in direct continuity with the worship of the early Church of the West.”

    According to Blunt (1882) the “Ancient Liturgy according to the use of Sarum” begins following this pattern:  “The priest, having first confessed and received absolution, said the Hymn, “Veni Creator,” whilst putting on the holy vestments, and then the Collect, “Deus, cui omne cor patet,” Ps. xliii. Judica me, with the Antiphon, “Introibo ad altare Dei, ad Deum qui lætificat juventutem meam;” followed by “Kyrie,” “Pater Noster,” and “Ave Maria.” All this was done in the Sacristy.

    The Introit, having been begun, the Priest proceeded “ad gradum Altaris,” and there (with the Deacon on his right and Sub-deacon on his left) said “Confiteor, etc. Then going up to the Altar, and standing in the midst, said secretly, “Take away from us, we beseech Thee, O Lord, all our iniquities...” He then censed the Altar while the Choir sing the Introit, the Kyries, and the priest himself intones the “Gloria in excelsis Deo” after which he returns to the dexter (right) horn of the Altar to say the Collect and remains there for the reading of the Epistle...”

    The Orthodox Missal (1995) page 172 ff... provides Psalm 43 (xliii.), the antiphon “I will go unto the altar of God.” (Introibo ad altare Dei...) followed by the Collect:  “Almighty God, unto whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and from whom no secrets are hid: Cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspira- tion of thy Holy Spirit, that we may per- fectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy Name; through Christ our Lord. Amen.”
    “Deus Cui omne cor patet, et omnis voluntas loquitur, et Quem nullum latet secretum; purifica per infusionem Sancti Spiritus cogitationes cordis nos- tri; ut Te perfecte diligere, et digne lau- dare mereamur. Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.”

    This “Collect for Purity” is not found in the preparatory prayers of the Roman Sacramentary. Perhaps it points to a “result of 16th century Reformation or Counter Reformation debates.” On the contrary, this prayer appears (in Latin as above) in the Sarum Sacramentary (c. 1085) in the Priest’s preparation prayers, and again in a Mass “ad invocandum gratiam Spiritus Sancti” at the end of the Sarum Missal, and in a Mass attributed by Muratori [ii.383] to St. Gregory, the Abbot of Canterbury about A.D. 780. It is also found in the Sacramentary of Alcuin (c. 735-804), and at the end of the Mass in the Hereford Missal, and the York Litany. It also occurs in the Roman Missal in a votive Mass “Missa votiva de Spiritu Sancto.”

    Surely the antiquity of the Introit Psalm and the Kyries are above reproach. The “Gloria in Excelsis” follows immediately. The Gloria is known anciently, appearing completely in its present form in St. Athanasius’ De Virgin, tom. ii., and undoubtedly dates from the Apostolic period. The angelic hymn was part of Western Matins and introduced into the Eucharistic Liturgy at least by the time of Symachus, Bishop of Rome, A.D. 500.

    The Collect of the Day, Epistle, Gradual and Alleluia verses, and Gospel follow as on pages 175, 176 of the Orthodox Missal. These “Propers” of the Western Rite have been established since at least the time of St. Jerome [c. 342-420] and are not just similar, but for most part identical, in the Sacramentaries and Missals from the fifth century to the present usage of the Western Rite. Compare the Collect for Pentecost in the Missal of Robert of Jumièges [English c. 1000] withthat of the Orthodox Missal (1995): “Deus qui hodierna die corda fideli- um sancti spiritus inlustratione docuisti. da nobis in eodem spiritu recta sapere. et de eius semper con- solatione gaudere, per dominum. in unitate eiusdem...”
    “God, who as at this time didst teach the hearts of thy faithful people, by sending to them the light of thy Holy Spirit: grant us by the same Spirit to have a right judgement in all things: and evermore to rejoice in his holy comfort. Through... in the unity of the same...”

    The “Credo in unum Deum” follows as always, without the “filioque” in conformity to Orthodox pneumatology. The Offertory sentences and prayers follow, unchanged in over a thousand years. A “Proper Preface” follows the Sursum Corda and these have varied somewhat over the centuries. In the middle of the first millennium there were more Proper Prefaces, in some books a unique text for every Day of the year. The Eastern Liturgies have a fixed form that does not vary from Advent to Christmas to Lent to Pascha. Most Western Missals provide at least ten Proper Prefaces, including one for the Virgin Mother of God, for Apostles’ Days, as well as for the major Feasts of the Temporal Cycle. The Orthodox Missal provides (p. 216 f.) twenty-two Prefaces.

    Following the threefold Sanctus, the Canon continues...
    Orthodox Missal p.185 (St. Tikhon)
    “All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou of thy ten- der mercy, didst give thine only Son..."
    Orthodox Missal p.205 (St. Gregory) “Therefore, most merciful Father, we humbly pray and beseech thee through Jesus Christ thy Son our Lord,"

    Missal of Robert of Jumièges p.45:  “Te igitur clementissime pater per iesum christum filium tuum dominum nos- trum"

    The Liturgy is always offered ‘ad Patrem’ through the Son. The gifts are offered as an explicit oblation to the Father:
    Orthodox Missal p.185 (St. Tikhon) :
    “do celebrate and make here before thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now offer unto thee..."
    Orthodox Missal p.205 (St. Gregory) : “... these gifts, these offerings, these holy, spotless sacrifices, which we offer thee..."

    Missal of Robert of Jumièges p.45 :
    “...supplices rogamus et petimus uti accepta habeas et + benedicas + haec dona + haec munera haec sancta sacrifi- cia inlibata..."

    The Commemoration of the Departed brings us to an instance where the local [English] Church has caused a variation in the text. How charming to read the list of Saints in Jumièges (p. 47) as compared to the standard [Roman] Western reading followed in our Orthodox Missal (pp. 186, 187):
    “...cum tuis sanctis apostolis et mar- tyribus cum Iohanne Stephano Mathia Barnaba Ignatio Alexandro Marcellino Petro Felicitate Perpetua Agatha Lucia Agnae Caecilia Anastasia Ætheldrythae Gertrudis et cum omnibus sanctis..."
    “...with thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: John, Stephen, Mattias, Barnabas, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all thy Saints..."

    Perhaps the names of Ætheldreda and Gertrude might be restored to the Orthodox Missal. Neither pious lady was seen to participate in the “16th century Reformation or Counter Reformation debates.” For that matter, they, and all the above mentioned Saints, reposed centuries before the Schism of East and West. It is also worth noting, in this discussion of an Antiochian Orthodox Service Book, that Ignatius of Antioch was included in the constant Commemorations of the pre- Schism English Church.

    There follows the Pater Noster and the prayer Libera Nos which since the 6th century has included the name of the Apostle Andrew. This is simply because Pope St. Gregory the Great of Rome offered the Mass with an explicit commemoration of St. Andrew, the patron Saint of the monastery Gregory had founded at his family’s estate in Rome. Pilgrims may still visit this monastery and other churches nearby mentioned by Gregory in his sermons. The monastery is now dedicated to San Gregorio himself. Gregory had earlier served in Constantinople whose Apostolic patron is St. Andrew. The universal Liturgy has ever after continued this commemoration of St. Andrew the Apostle. One writer, lately published by St. Vladimir Press in its Quarterly, mistakenly argued that the name of Andrew entered the text when a parochial Service Book was published by St. Andrew’s Parish in Eustis, Florida! The same writer has argued that the word “remembrance” in the text of the Administration of the sacrament (Missal p. 191) relegates the entire Rite to a kind of Zwinglian “memorialist” service. He “proves” this by supposing that the assumptions of one or more deceased English sovereigns has determined the meaning of “remembrance” wherever it appears in an English Liturgical text. On the contrary, “remembrance” means what our Lord meant when He Instituted the Sacrament saying “This do in remem- brance of me.” (St. Luke 22.19, I Cor 11.24, I Cor 11.25.) The text was established some fifteen hundred years before Zwingli or the “Reformation debates” and is present in every Liturgy of the Universal Church. For a discussion of “remembrance” in relation to the Liturgy see: Carlton, The Faith, Regina Press, 1997, pp. 204, 205.

    Perhaps a “Reformation debate” can be found in the fixed “post Communion” prayer or “thanksgiving” of the St. Tikhon Rite Missal (p. 192). There is no such in the Roman Missal, or in the old English Missals. There is, however, a corresponding prayer in the Liturgy of St. James, which is as follows:  “We give Thee thanks, Christ our God, that Thou hast vouchsafed to make us partakers of Thy Body and Blood, for the remission of sins, and eternal life. Keep us, we beseech Thee, with- out condemnation, because Thou art good, and the lover of men. We thank Thee, God and Saviour of all, for all the good things which Thou hast bestowed on us; and for the partici- pation of Thy holy and spotless mysteries... Glory to Thee, Glory to Thee, Glory to Thee, Christ the King, Only begotten Word of the Father, for that Thou hast vouchsafed us sinners and Thy unworthy servants to enjoy Thy spot- less mysteries, for the forgiveness of sins, and for eternal life: Glory to Thee.”

    The word “duly” in “duly received” (p. 192) of the Orthodox Missal is the English word for “proper rite” according to the proper form and ordinance.
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    Irish Hermit
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    Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


    « Reply #36 on: January 24, 2011, 11:34:33 AM »

    Here's a secret that you won't like Sub Deacon:  ROCOR is BROKE - it can't even pay for the Bishop's journey to Russia for the mandatory meeting of ALL Russian Orthodox Bishops.  Its BROKE - there is no money.   


    Good news, Father.  Our Metropolitan Hilarion and Vladyka Jerome will be travelling to Moscow this week.

    Given the terrorist explosion in Moscow this morning at the airport I am asking everyone to place Vladyka Hilarion and Jerome under the veil of the Holy Mother of God for protection.

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    « Reply #37 on: January 24, 2011, 09:44:33 PM »

    Molitve.....Prayers For

    Vladyka Hilarion and Jerome, under the Mantja of the Holy Mother of God, for protection.......Gospode Pomiluji.....Amin Amin







    Here's a secret that you won't like Sub Deacon:  ROCOR is BROKE - it can't even pay for the Bishop's journey to Russia for the mandatory meeting of ALL Russian Orthodox Bishops.  Its BROKE - there is no money.   


    Good news, Father.  Our Metropolitan Hilarion and Vladyka Jerome will be travelling to Moscow this week.

    Given the terrorist explosion in Moscow this morning at the airport I am asking everyone to place Vladyka Hilarion and Jerome under the veil of the Holy Mother of God for protection.


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    ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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    « Reply #38 on: May 26, 2011, 06:20:02 PM »

    The prayers worked. Glory to God.
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    Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


    « Reply #39 on: May 26, 2011, 08:58:00 PM »

    The prayers worked. Glory to God.

    O naughty monk!   Smiley
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