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Author Topic: History of Christianity in Cappadocia  (Read 4415 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 13, 2011, 10:01:23 PM »

I am working on an history of Christianity in Cappadocia and so far this is what I have come up with:

110 A.D.-301 A.D. Persecutions against Christians

301 A.D. St. Gregory the Illuminator converted King Tiridates III and members of his court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Armenia.

313 A.D. Emperor Constantine I issued the Edict of Milan.

327 A.D St. Nino converted Queen Nana and members of here court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Iberia.

337 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church adopts the Syriac Rite of St. James.

451 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church accepts the Council of Chalcedon and adopts the Byzantine Rite.

474 A.D – 491 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church was granted its independence from the Orthodox Church of Antioch.

The 7th century A.D. The Armenian Apostolic Church rejects the Council of Chalcedon and brakes with the Georgian Orthodox Church. The Georgia Orthodox Church ultimately joined the Eastern Orthodoxy, after which it was historically influenced by the church of the Byzantine Empire.

If anyone have any suggestions, or find any mistakes please comment below.


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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 10:17:04 PM »

451 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church accepts the Council of Chalcedon and adopts the Byzantine Rite.

Didn't happen at that time.
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 10:49:06 PM »

The 7th century A.D. The Armenian Apostolic Church rejects the Council of Chalcedon and brakes with the Georgian Orthodox Church. The Georgia Orthodox Church ultimately joined the Eastern Orthodoxy, after which it was historically influenced by the church of the Byzantine Empire.

Chalcedon was rejected at the Council of Dvin in the early 500's:

Quote
The First Council of Dvin (506)

The synod of the Armenian, Georgian, and Caspian-Albanian bishops assembled at Dvin during the reign of Catholicos Babken I. The participation of the Catholicoi of Georgia and Albania were set to make clear the position of the churches concerning the Chalcedonic Council. The "Book of Epestles" mentions that 20 bishops, 14 laymen, and many nakharars participated in the council. The involvement in the council discussion of different level of lay persons seemed to be a general rule in Armenia.

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?sid=1&id=4094&pid=59

Quote
The Armenian Church was not represented at Chalcedon, but since Armenian theological understanding of Christ tended to emphasize the unity of Christ’s nature, the Armenian Church eventually formally rejected the Council of Chalcedon at the Council of Dvin in 507.

http://www.armenianprelacy.org/index.php/history/church-history

The Georgians were represented at Dvin and joined the Armenians in condemning Chalcedon.  The Georgians split from the Armenians in the year 608 and joined the Chalcedonians at that time:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16969.0.html
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« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 11:37:43 PM »

451 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church accepts the Council of Chalcedon and adopts the Byzantine Rite.

Didn't happen at that time.

When did the Georgian Church adopt the Byzantine Rite?

Does anyone know anything about the 18th century georgian liturgical reforms?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 11:56:57 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 12:53:45 AM »

You got the issue of Chalcedon totally wrong.

The Georgian church did not accept Chalcedon in 451.

At that time it was operating closely alongside the Armenian and Caucasian Albanian churches.

They (collectively) did not make a decision regarding Chalcedon until the First Council of Dvin in 506, and at that they decided to condemn Chalcedon, along with accepting the Henotikon.

At the Second Council of Dvin in 554, they reiterated their condemnation of Chalcedon and also changed their position on the Henotikon, condemning it.

Sometime shortly before the Third Council of Dvin in about 609, the Georgian church shifted to Chalcedonianism, and as such, at the council, the Armenian and Albanian churches excommunicated them.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 12:54:38 AM »

Don't the Cappadocian Fathers deserve any mention?  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 04:11:48 PM »

Don't the Cappadocian Fathers deserve any mention?  Wink

Yes they do....

Here is an updated version:

60 A.D. Introduction of Christianity into Armenia, by Apostles St Thaddaeus and St. Bartholomew.

110 A.D. Persecution of the Christians in Armenia, by King Sanadroog.

240 A.D. Persecution of the Christians in Armenia, by King Kosrov II.

250 A.D. Letter from Bishop of Alexandria to the Bishop of Armenia Meroojan.

287 A.D. Persecution of the Christians in Armenia, by King Tiridates III

301 A.D. Martyrdom of the Forty Virgins. St. Gregory the Illuminator converted King Tiridates III and members of his court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Armenia. Ordination of St. Gregory the Illuminator.

313 A.D. Emperor Constantine I issued the Edict of Milan.

315 A.D. Conversion of the Georgians and Caspian Albanians.

325 A.D. The First Council of Nicaea

327 A.D St. Nino converted Queen Nana and members of here court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Iberia.

337 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church adopts the Syriac Rite of St. James.

354 A.D. The Council of Ashdishad

355 A.D. The beginning of the Armenian Monastic Movement.

381 A.D. The First Council of Constantinople.

387 A.D. The Division of Armenia between Byzantine and Persia.

406 A.D. The Invention of the Armenian Alphabet.

431 A.D. The First Council of Ephesus.

435 A.D. The Bible is translated into Armenian.

451 A.D. The Battle of Vartanantz. The First Council of Chalcedon.

474 A.D - 91 A.D The Georgian Orthodox Church was granted its independence from the Orthodox Church of Antioch.

482 A.D. The Edict of Emporer Zeno.

506 A.D. The synod of the Armenian, Georgian, and Caspian-Albanian bishops assembled at the First Council of Dvin during the reign of Catholicos Babken I. The participation of the Catholicoi of Georgia and Albania were set to make clear the position of the churches concerning the Chalcedonic Council. The "Book of Epestles" mentions that 20 bishops, 14 laymen, and many nakharars participated in the council. The involvement in the council discussion of different level of lay persons seemed to be a general rule in Armenia. The Georgian Orthodox Church joined the Armenian Apostolic Church in  condemning the Council of Chalcedon.

508 A.D. The rejection of the Council of Chalcedon by the Armenian Church

554 A.D. The Rejection of the Council of Chalcedon and the Three Chapters.

582 A.D. Adoption of the new calendar by the Armenian Church.

590 A.D. Establishment of an Anti-See in Western Armenian, by the Byzantine Empire.

607 A.D. Separation of the Georgian Orthodox Church from the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Council of Bardev.

609 A.D At the Third Council of Dvin the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Caspian Albanian Church both excommunicated the Georgian Orthodox Church for excepting the Council of Chalcedon.

640 A.D. Occupation of Armenia by the Arabs.

703 A.D. Massacre of the nakharars in Nakhichevan.

885 A.D. Establishment of the Begradite Kingdom.

915 A.D. Holy Cross cathedral built on Ahgthamar Island.

1045 A.D. Fall of the Begradite Kingdom.

1064 A.D. Ani, capital of Armenia, sacked and burned by Seljuqs.

1113 A.D. Archbishop David declares himself head of the Armenian Church. The Council of the Black Mountains condemns and excommunicates him and his See.

1116 A.D. Ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and the Armenian Church.

1200 A.D. The Establishment of the Brotherhood of St. James.

1292 A.D. The fall of the Armenian Holy See, at Hromgla.

1307 A.D. The Council of Sis.

1316 A.D. The Council of Adana.

1400 A.D. Gregory of Datev completes his systematized theology of the Armenian Church.

1444 A.D. The Catholicssal See  is reestablished in St. Echmiadzin.

1461 A.D. Sultan Mouhamed II establishes the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople.

1512 A.D. Hagop The Sinner publishes the Armenian book.

1666 A.D. The Armenian Bible is published in Amsterdam.

1717 A.D. Mkhitar of Sebastia establishes the Mkhitarist Brotherhood in Venice.

1794-96 A.D. The First Armenian newsletter is published in Madras, India.

1805 A.D. The Bible translated into Armenian by the Mkkhitarists

1863 A.D. The Armenian Constitution is proclaimed in the Ottoman Empire.

1894-96 A.D. The Hamidian Massacares claim 300, 000 Armenians

1903 A.D. Tsarist Russia tries to capture the Armenian church in Armenia.

1909 A.D. The Massacres of Adana claim 30,000 Armenians.

1915 A.D. The Ottomans systematically massacre 1.5 million Armenans.

1912 A.D. The Soviet Armenian Republic is astablished.

1988 A.D. The Arstakh movement in Armenia. A huge earthquake devastates northeastern Armenia

1991 A.D. Armenian reestablishes her independances.

1994 A.D. Catholicos Vazgen I passes away in Yerevan.

1995 A.D. Election and Consecration of H.H. Karekin I, Catholicos of  all Armenians.

1995 A.D. Election and Consecration of H.H. Aram I, Catholicos of Cilicia.

1999 A.D. H.H. Karekin I, Catholicos of all Armenians passes away in Yerevan (June 29)

1999 A.D. H.H. Karekin II, Catholicos of all Armenians was elected the 132nd Catholicos of All Armenians.

2001 A.D. Celebration of 1700 years of Christianity in Armenia.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 04:14:29 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 04:23:15 PM »

Pretty nice list. Though...

1116 A.D. Ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and the Armenian Church.

obviously I have issues with this point.
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 04:52:17 PM »

Do you mean Cilicia and not Cappadocia? AFAIK, Cappadocia was mainly Greek, not Armenian. I could be wrong, though.
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 05:11:31 PM »

Do you mean Cilicia and not Cappadocia? AFAIK, Cappadocia was mainly Greek, not Armenian. I could be wrong, though.

The Pontian Exarchate (the head See residing in Cappadocia) was the church from which Christianity in the Caucasian region originated. Both Saint Nino and Saint Gregory the Illuminator came from Cappadocia.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 06:43:13 PM »

I am having problems finding reliable information on both the Cappadocian Fathers, and the Georgian Orthodox Church. Maybe I just do not know where to look.  Huh

Also, If anyone knows where I can find information on Cappadocian Greek, please let me know.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 11:08:40 PM »

I am having problems finding reliable information on both the Cappadocian Fathers, and the Georgian Orthodox Church. Maybe I just do not know where to look.  Huh

Also, If anyone knows where I can find information on Cappadocian Greek, please let me know.
You mean the languaage?
Quote
Cappadocian evolved out of Byzantine Greek. After the battle of Manzikert in 1071, Cappadocia was cut off from the rest of the Greek-speaking world and Turkish became the lingua franca in the region.

The earliest records of the language are in the macaronic Persian poems of Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, who lived in Iconium (Konya), and some Ghazals by his son Sultan Walad. Interpretation of the texts is difficult, as they are written in Arabic script, in Rumi's case without vowel points; Dedes' is the most recent edition and rather more successful than others.

Many Cappadocians shifted to Turkish altogether (written with the Greek alphabet, Karamanlidika); where Greek was maintained (Sille, villages near Kayseri, Pharasa town and other nearby villages), it became heavily influenced by the surrounding Turkish. Unfortunately, there are next to no written documents in Medieval or early Modern Cappadocian, as the language was and still is essentially without a written tradition. The earliest descriptions of Cappadocian date from the 19th century, but are generally not very accurate.

The first reliable grammar of Cappadocian is Modern Greek in Asia Minor: A study of dialect of Silly, Cappadocia and Pharasa (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1916), by Richard MacGillivray Dawkins (1871–1955), the first Bywater and Sotheby Professor of Byzantine and Modern Greek Language and Literature at the University of Oxford, based on fieldwork conducted by the author in Cappadocia in 1909-1911.

After the population exchange, several Cappadocian dialects have been described by collaborators of the Center for Asia Minor Studies (Κέντρον Μικρασιατικών Σπουδών) in Athens: Ulağaç (I.I. Kesisoglou, 1951), Aravan (D. Phosteris & I.I. Kesisoglou, 1960), Axo (G. Mavrochalyvidis & I.I. Kesisoglou, 1960) and Anaku (A.P. Costakis, 1964), resulting in a series of grammars (although regrettably not all Cappadocian villages were covered). The Pharasiot priest Theodoridis also published some folk texts.

In recent years, the study of Cappadocian has seen a revival following the pioneering work on Language Contact, Creolization, and Genetic Linguistics (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988) by Sarah Grey Thomason and Terrence Kaufman, and a series of publications on various aspects of Cappadocian linguistics by Mark Janse, professor at Roosevelt Academy, who has also contributed a grammatical survey of Cappadocian to a forthcoming handbook on Modern Greek dialects edited by Christos Tzitzilis (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki).

The recent discovery of Cappadocian speakers by Janse and Papazachariou will result in a new grammar, dictionary and collection of texts.

Cappadocian Greek is well known from the linguistic literature as being one of the first well documented cases of language death, and in particular the significant admixture of non-Indo-European linguistic features into an Indo-European language. This process was pronounced on South-Western Cappadocia, and included the introduction of vowel harmony and verb-final word order.

[edit] CharacteristicsThe Greek element in Cappadocian is to a large extent Byzantine, e.g. θír or tír "door" from (Ancient and) Byzantine Greek θύρα (Modern Greek θύρα), píka or épka "I did" from Byzantine Greek έποικα (Modern Greek έκανα). Other, pre-Byzantine, archaisms are the use of the possessive pronouns mó(n), só(n) etc. from Ancient Greek εμός, σός etc. and the formation of the imperfect by means of the suffix -išk- from the Ancient Greek (Ionic) iterative suffix -(e)sk-. Turkish influence appears at every level. The Cappadocian sound system includes the Turkish vowels ı, ö, ü, and the Turkish consonants b, d, g, š, ž, tš, dž (although some of these are also found in Greek words as a result of palatalization). Turkish vowel harmony is found in forms such as düšündǘzu "I think", aor. 3sg düšǘntsü < düšǘntsi (Malakopi), from Turkish düşünmek, patišáxıs < patišáxis "king" (Delmeso), from Turkish padişah. Cappadocian noun morphology is characterized by the emergence of a generalized agglutinative declension and the progressive loss of grammatical gender distinctions, e.g. to néka "the (neuter) woman (feminine)", genitive néka-ju, plural nékes, genitive nékez-ju (Ulağaç). Another Turkish feature is the morphological marking of definiteness in the accusative case, e.g. líkos "wolf (nominative / unmarked indefinite accusative)" vs. líko "wolf (marked definite accusative)". Agglutinative forms are also found in the verb system such as the pluperfect írta ton "I had come" (lit. "I came I was") (Delmeso) on the model of Turkish geldi idi (geldiydi). Although Cappadocian word order is essentially governed by discourse considerations such as topic and focus, there is a tendency towards the Turkish Subject Object Verb word order with its typological correlates (suffixation and pre-nominal grammatical modifiers).

The commonality among all Greek Cappadocian dialects is that they evolved from Byzantine Greek under the influence of Turkish. On the other hand, those dialects evolved in isolated villages. This has resulted in a variety of Greek Cappadocian dialects.

[edit] DialectsNortheastern Cappadocian (Sinasos, Potamia, Delmeso)
Northwestern Cappadocian (Silata or Zila, Anaku, Flojita, Malakopi)
Central Cappadocian (Axo; Misthi) (See Misthiotica)
Southwestern Cappadocian (Aravan, Gurzono; Fertek)
Southeastern Cappadocian (Oulagatz (Uluağaç), Semendere)
Farasiot: dialect of Pharasa (Faraşa) town (now Çamlıca village Yahyalı, Kayseri) and other nearby villages (Afshar-Köy, Çukuri), more closely related to Pontic, though both are the closest relatives of Cappadocian
Sille
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek_language
Language death: factual and theoretical explorations with special reference ... By Matthias Brenzinger
http://books.google.com/books?id=iKHOeLDvUVgC&pg=PA65&dq=Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=NZA7TczoBJDQgAfO8fjlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Cappadocian%20Greek&f=false
Vox Graeca: a guide to the pronunciation of classical Greek By William Sidney Allen
http://books.google.com/books?id=yws4Zey-ZnYC&pg=PA41&dq=Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=NZA7TczoBJDQgAfO8fjlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=Cappadocian%20Greek&f=false

Encyclopedia of the world's endangered languages By Christopher Moseley
http://books.google.com/books?id=6LoNl7ZRO70C&pg=PA265&dq=Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=wJI7TaXuHcnpgQfBk9zwCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Cappadocian%20Greek&f=false
Cappadocian writers, other Greek writers edited by Maurice F. Wiles, Edward Yarnold, Paul M. Parvis
id=c5NdyoiREEMC&pg=PA534&dq=Space,+Place+Identity+Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=a5o7TZqkBs73gAe3loDVCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Crossing the Aegean: an appraisal of the 1923 compulsory population exchange ... By Renée Hirschon
http://books.google.com/books?id=CtDQqKh90YwC&pg=PA179&dq=Space,+Place+Identity+Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=a5o7TZqkBs73gAe3loDVCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Space%2C%20Place%20Identity%20Cappadocian%20Greek&f=false
Some Cultural Contacts of St. Basil at Antioch.  Phillip M. Beacon. Papers presented at the Twelfth International Conference on Patristic Studies Volume 4 By International Conference on Patristic Studies
http://books.google.com/books?id=bQNsdZz29boC&pg=PA67&dq=Cappadocian+Greek&hl=en&ei=NZA7TczoBJDQgAfO8fjlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Medieval and modern Greek By Robert Browning
http://books.google.com/books?id=b55B1J7I99AC&pg=PA135&dq=medieval+and+modern+greek+robert+browning+Cappadocia&hl=en&ei=1I87TaKoAYXqgQeBg9TGCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 01:05:30 AM »

I was going to post some things on this topic on this thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32961.0.html
but I might as well here.

Canon 28 of Chalcedon prompts me to treat Cappadocia with the rest of the East, with Antioch, Georgia, Albanai, Mesopotamia and India:
Quote
28. Everywhere following the decrees of the Holy Fathers, and aware of the recently recognized Canon of the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops who convened during the reign of Theodosius the Great of pious memory, who became emperor in the imperial city of Constantinople otherwise known as New Rome; we too decree and vote the same things in regard to the privileges and priorities of the most holy Church of that same Constantinople and New Rome. And this is in keeping with the fact that the Fathers naturally enough granted the priorities to the throne of Old Rome on account of her being the imperial capital. And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her. And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him. (Ap c. XXXIV; c. III of the 2nd and c. XXXVI of the 6th.)


Interpretation.

Since at this Fourth Council c. III of the Second Council was read, which decrees that the Bishop of Constantinople is to enjoy priorities of honor with the Bishop of Rome, seeing that it is New Rome, therefore the fathers of this Council too, by means of their present Canon, renew and confirm the said Canon, and they decree and vote the same things as regards the priorities of the same city of Constantinople which is also known as New Rome. For, they say, just as the Fathers bestowed privileges upon the throne of Old Rome on account of the fact that it was the capital of an empire, and were fully justified in doing so, owing, that is to say, to his being first in point of order among the rest of the Patriarchs. In exactly the same way and motivated by exactly the same object and aim, the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved bishops of the second Council have bestowed exactly the same and equal privileges of honor also upon the most holy throne of New Rome — of Constantinople, that is to say — deeming it quite reasonable that this city, in view of the fact that it has been honored by being made the seat of an empire and of a senate, in a similar manner as has also (old) Rome, ought to enjoy the same and equal privileges in a similar manner as has also (old) Rome, and to be magnified herself also in exactly the same way as the latter is in connection with ecclesiastical matters, with the sole difference that old Rome is to be first in order, while new Rome is to be second in order. In addition to these things we decree and vote that only the Metropolitans (but not also the Bishops, that is to say, that are subject to the Metropolitans; for each of these is ordained by his own Metropolitan together with the bishops of the province, just as the divine Canons prescribe, especially c. VI of the First) shall be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of Constantinople. Not only are the Metropolitans of the said dioceses to be ordained by him, but indeed also the bishops located in barbarian regions that border on the said dioceses, as, for instance, those called Alani are adjacent to and flank the diocese of Pontus, while the Russians border on that of Thrace. Nevertheless, the said Metropolitans are not to be ordained by the Bishop of Constantinople just as he pleases and decides, but he must take the votes of the Synod under him into consideration as reported to him in accordance with established custom, and then ordain those men on whom the voters have agreed, either unanimously or as a majority.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_ecumenical_rudder.htm#_Toc34001970
According to this canon, Constantinople took over the Dioceses of Pontus

Asia

and Thrace

These, along with the Diocese of the East

comprised the Prefecture of the East after Constantine reorganized the Empire and established Constantinople as capital.

However, Armenia had been evangelized from Antioch, but its Catholicos consecrated by the Archbishop of Caesarea until 373, when the Arian King Pap poisoned the Orthodox Catholicos St. Nerses I, and St. Basil refused to consecrate the successor appointed by King Pap, C. Yusik/Sahak I.  King Pap fell into disfavor and was murdered by the Roman Emperor Valens the next year but his Arsacid dynasty remained, his Catholiocos died in 377 but his Albaniosid dynasty remained, St. Basil fell asleep in 379, the same year the Orthodox Emperor Theodosius I ascended to the throne.  When the Emperor reunited the Empire and the Church, and called the Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople I, an autocephalous Catholicos of an independent Armenia attended.  I haven't seen satisfactory details of how that was rectified, but neither have I seen any questions raised on it. So when canon 28 was adopted, Armenia (and under it, Georgia, Albania and perhaps Abkhazia) was not part of the deal to Constantinople.

Part of that might be that just as the Armenian Kingdom served as a buffer state between Rome and Iran, so too the Armenian Catholicate arose where the Hellenic Churches of Pontus and Asia overlapped with the increasingly Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch. Armenia drew on both traditions.
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 01:44:50 AM »

On the other thread, I went back for some background, so I thought I'd post some here too, for the simple reason that humans are creatures of habit, and old established patterns tend to repeat.
First, some geography:
I just found these handy references:
The elevation of what constistutes the core of the East (the Levant, Mesopotamia and the adjoining Iranian plateau).

http://nabataea.net/MiddleEastMap2.gif
It cuts off the northern part of the East (Armenia, Georgia, Caucasian Albania).  Unfortunately I couldn't get a map as clear as the above for elevation.  This shows the catchment of Mesopotamia (the red line), including the North:

http://www.yale.edu/ceo/Projects/swap/catchment_map_sm.jpg
And a somewhat clear elevation map of the Caucasus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Caucasus_topo_map-blank.jpg
and a somewhat clear relief map of Anatolia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Turkey_topo.jpg
A broader relief map (where unfortunatly the Caspian isn't colored blue).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Iranian-Plateau.gif
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 03:07:16 AM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 03:08:28 AM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
LOL. I'll get to that, Lord wiling.
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 04:24:07 AM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.

What was?
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 07:13:23 AM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.

What was?
I think he is refering to Phrygian or Galatian.
http://books.google.com/books?id=trut4zl8JK4C&pg=PA288&dq=galatian+spoken+language&hl=en&ei=_ag-TeiyMIfHgAe2443wCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jerome&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=OGBGauNBK8kC&pg=PA666&dq=anatolian+languages&hl=en&ei=w6Y-TbODNpOcgQek_aDDCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=anatolian%20languages&f=false

Cappadocia also had a large Zoroastrian Iranian population.
Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin literature By Albert de Jong
http://books.google.com/books?id=cNUEnHU0BPoC&pg=PA144&dq=Zoroastrian+Cappadocia&hl=en&ei=Bao-TaS-I8rEgQfRkI3sCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Zoroastrian%20Cappadocia&f=false

Pseudo-Lucian (the Assyrian who wrote in Greek) said in the second century that it was easier to teach a tortoise to fly than to teach a Cappadocian to speak Greek/
Gregory of Nyssa By Anthony Meredith, Saint Gregory (of Nyssa)
http://books.google.com/books?id=J8a8BzJCrEYC&pg=PA11&dq=teach+tortoise+to+fly+Cappadocian+to+speak+Greek&hl=en&ei=Uqs-TamJPIHGgAfRh5mKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=teach%20tortoise%20to%20fly%20Cappadocian%20to%20speak%20Greek&f=false
Btw, came across something else on Cappadocian Greek
Greek: A History of the Language and Its Speakers By Geoffrey Horrocks
http://books.google.com/books?id=BwHPKIUXKGsC&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=St.+basil+anatolian+languages&source=bl&ots=qiPr5YTVTs&sig=b8Y8AZFINKrkZRuglj_PzKf9BwE&hl=en&ei=qaU-Td7IOpDQgAfO8fjlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Earlier, there were Georgian speakers:
Quote
The earliest record of the name of Cappadocia dates from the late 6th century BC, when it appears in the trilingual inscriptions of two early Achaemenid kings, Darius I and Xerxes, as one of the countries (Old Persian dahyu-) of the Persian Empire. In these lists of countries, the Old Persian name is Katpatuka, clearly not a native Persian name. The Elamite and Akkadian language versions of the inscriptions contain a similar name from Akkadian katpa "side" (cf. Heb katef) and a chief or ancestor's name, Tuka.[2]

Herodotus tells us that the name of the Cappadocians was applied to them by the Persians, while they were termed by the Greeks as "Syrians" or "White Syrians" (Leucosyri). One of the Cappadocian tribes he mentions is the Moschoi, associated by Flavius Josephus with the biblical figure Meshech, son of Japheth: "and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians". AotJ I:6. Also see Ketubot 13:11 in the Mishna.

Cappadocia is also mentioned in the biblical account given in the book of Acts 2:9. The Cappadocians were named as one group hearing the Gospel account from Galileans in their own language on the day of Pentecost shortly after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Acts 2:5 seems to suggest that the Cappadocians in this account were "God-fearing Jews". See Acts of the Apostles.

Under the later kings of the Persian Empire, the Cappadocians were divided into two satrapies, or governments, with one comprising the central and inland portion, to which the name of Cappadocia continued to be applied by Greek geographers, while the other was called Pontus. This division had already come about before the time of Xenophon. As after the fall of the Persian government the two provinces continued to be separate, the distinction was perpetuated, and the name Cappadocia came to be restricted to the inland province (sometimes called Great Cappadocia), which alone will be the focus of this article.

The kingdom of Cappadocia was still in existence in the time of Strabo as a nominally independent state. Cilicia was the name given to the district in which Caesarea, the capital of the whole country, was situated. The only two cities of Cappadocia considered by Strabo to deserve that appellation were Caesarea (originally known as Mazaca) and Tyana, not far from the foot of the Taurus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocia#History
Quote
Moschia (Meskheti, Mushki) is a mountainous region of Georgia between Iberia, Armenia, and Colchis. The Moschian Mountains were the connecting chain between the Caucasus and Anti Taurus Mountains. The people of that area were known as the Moschi.

Wilhelm Gesenius suggested that the Moschi were descended from the Biblical Meshech tribe.

Strabo mentions the Moschian Mountains as joining the Caucasus (Geography, 11.2.1). He says that the Moschian country lay above the rivers Phasis, Glaucus, and Hippus (Geography, 11.2.17). In it "lies the temple of Leucothea, founded by Phrixus, and the oracle of Phrixus, where a ram is never sacrificed; it was once rich, but it was robbed in our time by Pharnaces, and a little later by Mithridates of Pergamum." (ibid).

According to the renowned scholar of the Caucasian studies Cyril Toumanoff, the Moschians were the early proto-Georgian tribes which were integrated into the first early Georgian state of Colchis.[1]

Moschians are mentioned in the cuneiform tablets of Tiglath-Pileser I of Assyria dating to 1115-1100 B.C. He led a campaign against them in the North of Commagene and mountains of Georgia and Armenia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moschia
and later, Armenians.
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 03:14:14 PM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.

What was?

Cappadocian.

Cappadocian Greek was simply a Cappadocianizing of the language of the Greeks after it became the lingua franca of that area. Before Greek came in the Cappadocians had their own native language.

However, as to what Cappadocian looked or sounded like or what it resembled, I really haven't the foggiest. The best information I could find the other day is that Saint Basil the Great indicated that it was different from the other languages he was familiar with.
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 04:52:36 PM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
Also Byzantines did not value Cappadocians much, in fact they had a saying to prove it: "Τρία κάππα κάκιστα, Καππαδόκες, Κρῆτες, Κίλικες", something like "the three cees of cacodemons: Cappadocians, Cretans, Cilicians" (notice that Cappadocians come first  Grin)
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 06:00:37 PM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
Also Byzantines did not value Cappadocians much, in fact they had a saying to prove it: "Τρία κάππα κάκιστα, Καππαδόκες, Κρῆτες, Κίλικες", something like "the three cees of cacodemons: Cappadocians, Cretans, Cilicians" (notice that Cappadocians come first  Grin)
Pretty cool avatar there Apostolos!

The Cilicians had a lot of Semitic speakers, like Leo the Isaurian, who spilled over.
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 06:22:00 PM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
Also Byzantines did not value Cappadocians much, in fact they had a saying to prove it: "Τρία κάππα κάκιστα, Καππαδόκες, Κρῆτες, Κίλικες", something like "the three cees of cacodemons: Cappadocians, Cretans, Cilicians" (notice that Cappadocians come first  Grin)

You're free to give them back!  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 12:15:54 PM »

I must point out that Cappadocian Greek was not the native language of the Cappadocians, and was not their first language in the time of Saint Basil the Great.
Also Byzantines did not value Cappadocians much, in fact they had a saying to prove it: "Τρία κάππα κάκιστα, Καππαδόκες, Κρῆτες, Κίλικες", something like "the three cees of cacodemons: Cappadocians, Cretans, Cilicians" (notice that Cappadocians come first  Grin)
Pretty cool avatar there Apostolos!
That's Archon Michael, the lord of Lesbos:

I know a few Lesbians (from the island of Lesbos i.e. Mytilene) and they respect him A LOT. I've also heard stories about his apparitions and what he does to those who mock him (Archangel Michael appears as a very tall, young man in his early 30's; and let's just say he is a bit petulant   angel)
 
The Cilicians had a lot of Semitic speakers, like Leo the Isaurian, who spilled over.
St. Paul was a Cilician Jew, he was born in Tarsus; Isaurians were regarded as the acidulent version of Cilicians (if you know what I mean)
Quote from: deusveritasest
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With pleasure...who wants them back if I may ask?
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 03:45:54 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
You're free to give them back!   Wink
With pleasure...who wants them back if I may ask?

The Oriental Orthodox.
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2011, 09:23:16 AM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
You're free to give them back!   Wink
With pleasure...who wants them back if I may ask?

The Oriental Orthodox.
Nah, we'll keep them, we like their music very much  Smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ho6BrBsIhU
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 11:28:05 AM »

Does anyone know anything about the 18th century georgian liturgical reforms?

"Reforms?"  Do you mean when Georgia was forced to become part of the Russian Empire?  When the Georgian Orthodox lost its freedom.
And the Russian Orthodox Church forced the Georgian Orthodox to adopt Church Slavonic as a liturgical language.
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 11:29:49 AM »

Do you mean Cilicia and not Cappadocia? AFAIK, Cappadocia was mainly Greek, not Armenian. I could be wrong, though.
No you are right.
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 01:56:44 AM »

fatman2021
Quote
301 A.D. Martyrdom of the Forty Virgins. St. Gregory the Illuminator converted King Tiridates III and members of his court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Armenia. Ordination of St. Gregory the Illuminator.
Armenians could not have accepted Christianity as a state religion before 319. The years 301 and 314 (which is another year named by Armenian historians) is chosen to fit certain historical events. Both of this are impossible dates of Armenia's conversion. Several important arguments can be named for this including direct and indirect ones. Armenian source ("History of Agathangelos") and Georgian source ("Kartli Chronicles") both clearly state that Armenia's conversion did not occur until after the martyrdom of Forty Virgins and until after Saint Nino's (which was the only survivor among these Virgins) entry into Georgia (more precisely Kartli, which was eastern Georgia then). It can be determined for certain and without a doubt that Saint Nino entered Georgia in 319. Besides there's no source in Armenian (or elsewhere) that would inform us on the date of 301 or 314. So, Armenia could not and did not pronounce Christianity as a state religion before 319 (And most likely not before 324 for which there're important indirect historical data supporting this date of 324)

Quote
Does anyone know anything about the 18th century georgian liturgical reforms?
There was no official liturgical reform. This issue is more complicated as it appears from what I've read. To state simply it would go more like this: Russia's Patriarch Nikon (17th century) did reforms which also included changing of liturgical texts. Later Georgian Catholics Anton translated liturgical texts from Russian which by this time had been altered by Patriarch Nikon.

Quote
I am having problems finding reliable information on both the Cappadocian Fathers, and the Georgian Orthodox Church.
One source, though very scarce, you can find on the official site of Georgian Patriarchate here.

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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2011, 12:18:23 PM »

fatman2021
Quote
301 A.D. Martyrdom of the Forty Virgins. St. Gregory the Illuminator converted King Tiridates III and members of his court. Christianity becomes the state religion of Armenia. Ordination of St. Gregory the Illuminator.
Armenians could not have accepted Christianity as a state religion before 319. The years 301 and 314 (which is another year named by Armenian historians) is chosen to fit certain historical events. Both of this are impossible dates of Armenia's conversion. Several important arguments can be named for this including direct and indirect ones. Armenian source ("History of Agathangelos") and Georgian source ("Kartli Chronicles") both clearly state that Armenia's conversion did not occur until after the martyrdom of Forty Virgins and until after Saint Nino's (which was the only survivor among these Virgins) entry into Georgia (more precisely Kartli, which was eastern Georgia then). It can be determined for certain and without a doubt that Saint Nino entered Georgia in 319. Besides there's no source in Armenian (or elsewhere) that would inform us on the date of 301 or 314. So, Armenia could not and did not pronounce Christianity as a state religion before 319 (And most likely not before 324 for which there're important indirect historical data supporting this date of 324)
Eusebius records the Armenians as Christians before the war of Emperor Maximinus II against them (Eusebius gives their Faith the credit for their victory against him).
Quote
In addition to this the tyrant was compelled to go to war with the Armenians, who had been from ancient times friends and allies of the Romans. As they were also Christians, and zealous in their piety toward the Deity, the enemy of God had attempted to compel them to sacrifice to idols and demons, and had thus made friends foes, and allies enemies
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xv.viii.html
He died in 313, and fought this war probably in 310, so that knocks off both your 314 and 319 dates.

Eusebius says nothing about the conversion of Iberia/Kartli/Georgia, his continuator Socrates Scholasticus does (but not naming St.Nina by name, nor connecting her to the 40 Virgins. He does know the history of the conversion of Trdat).

Eusebius mentions in passing on the work of Pope Dionysisus of Alexandria in healing the Novatian Schism that "He likewise sent one [epistle] on Repentance to the brethren in Armenia, of whom Merozanes was bishop." The Armenian Church gives dates of 240-270 for Bp. Merozanes of Sophene. Pope Dionysius' papacy was 248-265 (btw, Pope Dionysius is a good example of a local primate taking care of the whole Church, something the Vatican claims only the bishop of Rome did).  The Novatian schism broke out in 251.

on Sophene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophene
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 12:23:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 09:06:26 PM »


Great map.
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2013, 08:37:41 AM »

Looks like the toilet bowl after diraherra
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2013, 12:39:08 PM »


Probably so. But most Americans think that that image is what that area of the world actually looks like, so...   Huh
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