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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 55759 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2008, 07:27:35 PM »

The Patriarchs words don't mean that abortion is justified. His words preclude that the Church shouldn't get involved in the process of free will. You're make it out as if you posted a smoking gun. My view is that the law is written on peoples hearts. No matter what the situation is. You're gut will tell you what is right or wrong. Abortion should be avoided unless there is no other option. Even than it will feel wrong and need repenting.
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2008, 07:59:21 PM »

Don't forget, of course, as well, that we have many beloved saints in the Church who were doctors.  Ss. Cosmas and Damianos the Unmercenaries, St. Luke, St. Panteleimon, Ss. Cyril and John the Unmercenaries, just to name a few. 
*
And can we imagine Saint Luke... "so your husband earns only 20 denarii a week. Of course that is not enough to raise a second child on.   I'll perform an abortion for you tomorrow."

Or, at a consultation with Saints Cosmas and Damian.... "it would not be God's all-benevolent will for you to bear this child when you are an unmarried woman.  Come back later today and we'll abort it."
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« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2008, 09:05:25 PM »

I would dare say we can not. However, it seems to me that the Holy Orthodox Church has just as much trouble concerning this issue and contraception as the Holy Catholic Church. At least, that's the impression I get from this forum. Sadly, I never had this impression of Holy Orthodoxy. 
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I have been very dismayed to find the level of acceptance of abortion among some of the Orthodox members of this Forum.   To counter that and get the true teaching, it is necessary to read the official statements of the various Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2008, 09:10:30 PM »


"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Barthlomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion." (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90
p.A22)

While I agree with His All Holiness (I'm sure he will be pleased to know), that ellipsis bothers me. I wonder what has been omitted by the reporter.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 09:12:21 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2008, 02:08:49 AM »

If it is the Orthodox Christian view to justify the killing of the innocent, then praise God I am not Orthodox. The consequences of this "Orthodox Christian view" are being borne out tragically in Eastern Europe.

While I would share your disdain for anyone advocating abortion as a "tragic necessity in some cases," you probably know that the traditional Orthodox teaching is against abortion since it is murder. I could go to one of your Church's message boards and find people advocating non-Catholic teachings.  I could also make stupid comparisons of your Church's teaching on divorce and the fact that half of people in Central America are now living with people they are not married to, many because "they will only be able to get married once, so they better try it out first" (actual quote from several of my friends and even a RC priest I know).

I abhor your triumphalism. Praise God I am not...never mind, I will not idolize God by praising him for my preconceived notions.
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2008, 02:20:15 AM »

If it is the Orthodox Christian view to justify the killing of the innocent, then praise God I am not Orthodox. The consequences of this "Orthodox Christian view" are being borne out tragically in Eastern Europe.
So, you're going to conclude that because some on this board advocate "freedom" to kill the innocent via abortion, that this is the "Orthodox Christian view"?  Especially considering the posts others have submitted to show how the Orthodox Church has always and with the utmost clarity condemned the practice of abortion as murder?  I'm sorry, but this strikes me as more of a triumphalistic attempt to "stick it to the Orthodox" than any real attempt at intelligent discussion.  If you've done your homework apart from this forum, you will know very well that the opinions of those here who "justify the killing of the innocent" obviously do not represent the ancient Tradition of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2008, 02:44:58 AM »

So, you're going to conclude that because some on this board advocate "freedom" to kill the innocent via abortion, that this is the "Orthodox Christian view"?

I must have lost track of this thread because I haven't noticed anyone advocating the '"freedom" to kill the innocent via abortion'. What I have seen is an attempt at understanding that abortion might be a consideration; however rarely.

Is there any suggestion that the Church would deny a woman with cancer (for example) an abortion if carrying the child full-term was to kill her?

Let me make myself perfectly clear on this, I abhor abortion and wouldn't even take the life of unborn kittens, but I cannot in all conscience see myself insisting that anyone in such a situation as I mention above should be forced to deliver a child at the cost of their own life. I have no idea what I would do in such a case and as it's not going to be an issue for me, I feel I have no right to suggest that someone should do what I might not have the strength to.

Quote
 Especially considering the posts others have submitted to show how the Orthodox Church has always and with the utmost clarity condemned the practice of abortion as murder? 

Yes, and well it should do, but murder is committed on other ocassions, too. War, for instance, when innocents are bombed into oblivion or left horribly maimed for life. Ok, I'm not going to go off on that tangent, but I do see a certain duplicity going on, here.

Forgive me if I have caused offence.



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« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2008, 04:17:15 AM »

Secondly, does it mean that if someone doesn't have children, they can't say abortion is wrong, but if they do, they can say it is wrong?
Firstly, They can say it's wrong. Their opinion just doesn't carry that much weight for me.
Secondly, I never said abortion was ever "right". The analogies I used were divorce and killing in war. Neither of these is "right", but sometimes they are the lesser of evils.

Thirdly, what does one's state have to do with the fact that from the moment of conception, each soul exists, and by aborting it a person is denying this soul a) baptism and b) a chance at life on its own? How can choosing to end a child's life ever be better than any alternative?
When you have seen the "alternatives" I have seen- abuse and neglect of children, poverty which leads to crime, drug addiction and psychosis, you too will begin to question.

And finally, if it is pastoral to counsel abortion, what will the parents say on judgment day to the child they aborted? When it asks them why it was murdered and not allowed baptism, what will their response be? Has the priest counseled them on this?
I can understand fully the point expressed in your other post: if someone has already done the deed, we need to look at why they did it and be compassionate. The Roman Catholics have a group called Project Rachel that does a good job at that.  But if it is before the deed is done, I can't see how it could ever be suggested.
What do you mean by "counsel abortion"? Do you mean make the decision for the parent/s? Any Pastoral Carer worth their salt does not make decisions for those in their care. They present the facts and as far as possible, the implications of the decision.
The same goes for suicide. I can restrain someone from harming themselves only for so long, ultimately, they must make a decision whether to take their own life or not. All I can do is help them to see the implications of their decision. I can "schedule them" (I think you guys call it "commit them"), but if they have made a decision to kill themselves, they will find a way. This is simply the reality.

As far as the argument that some people know they should not be parents so they use contraception, if you are talking about non Orthodox that is one thing, as they do not have an Orthodox worldview, but in an Orthodox worldview, those who know they would not make good parents should not get married in the first place. You can't consent to an Orthodox marriage, hear all of the prayers for children, and say "nah, I am not good parent material, I think I will pass."  There is such a pressure in the modern world to be married, and yet we have such a floundering of vocations and people who should have been celibate being pressured into marriage and relationships...if people know they will not be good parents, they might consider monasticism or some other alternative.
I absolutely agree with you on this one. (Well, almost Wink ).
While I think that an Orthodox Christian couple should have children if they possible can, I'm not totally against the use of contraception to plan families. Note: abortion is not contraception. Contraception is the prevention of fertilization, not the expulsion of a fertilized ovum or foetus.

If it is the Orthodox Christian view to justify the killing of the innocent, then praise God I am not Orthodox. The consequences of this "Orthodox Christian view" are being borne out tragically in Eastern Europe.
So can we blame the AIDS epidemic in Africa on Roman Catholicism's objections to condoms?
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« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2008, 10:05:00 AM »

Now I have a few questions for the "Right to Life" people:
What is the cut off age for the "Right to Life"? Why do people on Death Row not have a "Right to Life"? Why is the State killing adults acceptable to you? Why aren't you up in arms about the Death Penalty? Why do enemy combatants in war not have a "Right to Life"?
It seems almost as if you view yourselves as some sort of gods that can determine who has a right to live and who dies.
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« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2008, 11:03:06 AM »

Now I have a few questions for the "Right to Life" people:
What is the cut off age for the "Right to Life"? Why do people on Death Row not have a "Right to Life"? Why is the State killing adults acceptable to you? Why aren't you up in arms about the Death Penalty? Why do enemy combatants in war not have a "Right to Life"?
It seems almost as if you view yourselves as some sort of gods that can determine who has a right to live and who dies.

Being a confused pacifist, George, I really have no answers. I object most strongly to the death penalty. I hate the "just war" stance taken by Christians. And though I try with all my strength to follow Christ's example of loving an enemy, I know in my heart of hearts that if anyone forceably entered my home and tried to harm my grandchildren I would do anything in my power to stop them. I simply wouldn't be thinking of their right to life.

Please pray for this sinner.

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« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2008, 12:11:03 PM »


I can understand fully the point expressed in your other post: if someone has already done the deed, we need to look at why they did it and be compassionate. The Roman Catholics have a group called Project Rachel that does a good job at that.  But if it is before the deed is done, I can't see how it could ever be suggested.



Just wanted to throw this out there for those interested.  This is a group called ZOE for life, and they are endorsed by SCOBA.  I would love to see this group become bigger and more active within the church.  They do WONDERFUL work to help prevent abortions without getting into the politics of legislating it:

Quote
ZOE is a non-profit Christ-centered support organization with three major goals: to help women in crisis pregnancy, to assist Orthodox Christian couples seeking to adopt, and to create an Orthodox Christian abstinence program to educate young people.
http://www.zoeforlifeonline.org/


My own belief, as I've said before, is that abortion is ALWAYS an abomination, and a terrible tragedy.  I am in full agreement that the Church has always clearly spoken against it, and that we should regard those who have had an abortion with love and compassion, and we should counsel them and try to reunite them with the Church.  I only wanted to point out that I don't think His All-Holiness was (is) pro-abortion, he just believes that the Church shouldn't get involved in politics, in legislating people's private lives.  He believes that Christ never forced anything on anyone, and neither should His Church.  While I agree with that, I also believe in legislating against murder, which the Church has always clearly taught is what abortion is.

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« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2008, 02:22:42 PM »

Now I have a few questions for the "Right to Life" people:
What is the cut off age for the "Right to Life"? Why do people on Death Row not have a "Right to Life"? Why is the State killing adults acceptable to you? Why aren't you up in arms about the Death Penalty? Why do enemy combatants in war not have a "Right to Life"?
It seems almost as if you view yourselves as some sort of gods that can determine who has a right to live and who dies.

Well, I'm generally not pro-life so I don't have a problem with most these things; killing in war is perfectly acceptable, in fact I would argue that it would be a sin for a soldier to ignore his duty and refuse to kill the enemy. I have no problem with the death penalty in principle, though in practice I oppose it because I do not have enough confidence in the various judicial systems to accurately guilt and certainly not to do so within the constraints of constitutional and customary common law protections that should be afforded to the accused, so it's better to not execute anyone than execute those convicted by a faulty system.

As for a fetus' right to life, I'm all for it, but it does not have the right to remain inside the woman against her will. She has the right to remove it from her body, it can then receive medical attention have its rights protected as a citizen, but not at the expense of the rights of others.
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« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2008, 10:53:25 PM »

Well, I'm generally not pro-life so I don't have a problem with most these things; killing in war is perfectly acceptable, in fact I would argue that it would be a sin for a soldier to ignore his duty and refuse to kill the enemy. I have no problem with the death penalty in principle, though in practice I oppose it because I do not have enough confidence in the various judicial systems to accurately guilt and certainly not to do so within the constraints of constitutional and customary common law protections that should be afforded to the accused, so it's better to not execute anyone than execute those convicted by a faulty system.

As for a fetus' right to life, I'm all for it, but it does not have the right to remain inside the woman against her will. She has the right to remove it from her body, it can then receive medical attention have its rights protected as a citizen, but not at the expense of the rights of others.

I'm afraid you're behind the times.  The first custody/property (that was the legal arguments) battle over test tube babies occured decades ago.  More or less, it's within reason now that this canard will be put to rest, if it isn't already.  (Btw, in that case the father's argument was that he would be made a father against his will, which, given the legal precedents, he was legally correct.  Another reason why I'm not a legalist).

As for the "right," there's the concept of implied consent, which applies in all cases outside of rape.
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« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2008, 02:05:42 AM »

I'm afraid you're behind the times.  The first custody/property (that was the legal arguments) battle over test tube babies occured decades ago.  More or less, it's within reason now that this canard will be put to rest, if it isn't already.  (Btw, in that case the father's argument was that he would be made a father against his will, which, given the legal precedents, he was legally correct.  Another reason why I'm not a legalist).

And how, exactly is this relevant?

People may have some degree of a right to live, but not at the expense of another. If I need a kidney, I can't force you to give me one. If I need a kidney to survive and you are the only one who can give it to me, you are well within your rights to refuse...my 'right to life' does not extend to allowing me to violate you and force you to give me a kidney. Furthermore, your right to life does not extend to even a violation of my property rights, if you're freezing outside and are about to die of hypothermia you still can't enter my house against my will to get warm; if you did enter my house without my permission I would be within my rights to (and might very well) shoot you. Your 'right to life' is limited, it is only valid so long as you don't violate my rights...and vice versa. The same must be applied to any fetus' 'right to life'.
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« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2008, 08:51:47 PM »

I tend to equate the two, as those who label themselves "pro-choice" believe abortion should be allowed.  When I use the term "pro-abortion," I don't mean that the people in question think abortion is a great thing that should be practiced as much as possible.  I mean only that they support its use.  Therefore, I see the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion" as being synonymous.  Plus, I honestly have trouble using the term "pro-choice," as the individual most affected by an abortion gets no choice in the matter.

Whilst not wishing to be contentious, it is my understanding that the two do not equate. But then, I am neither. For myself, I am decidedly pro-life. I do, however, accept another's right to be otherwise - so I suppose that makes me pro-choice in the eyes of some; but so be it. And I do accept a woman's right to make a decision to terminate a pregnancy - as horrible as that would be to me - if their life is endangered by that pregnancy.

Quote
"Lord, please make this union produce children.  Do not let me enter into it with any other desire in my mind.  Please remove any physical desire I have for my wife, as this could lead me to seek the marital embrace for reasons of the flesh.  If my wife is not fertile at this time, please prevent us from entering into this physical union, as the sinful pleasure we would receive would not be balanced out by the great good of childbearing.  I understand that, aside from its role in the creation of new life, sexual intercourse is an odious, sinful act, and I look forward to the day when my wife and I are no longer able to produce offspring, and may thus abandon this act forever."

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« Reply #105 on: January 30, 2008, 03:31:20 AM »

Hi Guys!


I don't think it's fair to compare GreekIsChristian's quote with NAMBLA, because I am assuming that GIC means two adult people on friendly terms. The monsters of NAMBLA wish to get their itches scratched with young children who have less-formed minds and/or come from backgrounds that make them easy pickings.

Quote
Considering that over 95% of people are sexually active prior to marriage (Reference),

Millions of people abort their own children for non-health reasons, but the statistics shouldn't mean we should see it as ok. Pre-marital sex occurs here in America because our society is saturated in sex, and many kids probably aren't getting the gentle persuasion NOT to "do-it" at home (Hee-hee! I got to type in the phrase "do-it" in a post! Ahem...sorry). Maybe when so many angles are encouraging what used to be a taboo, maybe we religious kinda give up?
One might say mingling the white and black races used to be taboo, but if you look at it, breaking down apartheid supports the Christian tenet that we are all children of God. Pre-marital sex is wrong because you're sharing something sacred with someone else ho doesn't have a right to it before the Lord.

Quote
Won what?  for one thing, will you chorttle if the muslims outbreed us into oblivion? Look at Eurabia.

You mean Arabia? I don't believe they'll out-rabbit us any time soon. According to my Pakistani father, Muslim countries, on the whole, favor boys more than girls. Girls are either killed outright, or left to rot in the streets and orphanages. You can't pop 'em out if you kill us girls. My father's country is notorious for throwing their baby girls right out into the streets. He told me a story one time about one of his visits. There were far more girl children begging on the streets than boys. To quote him, "You give one girl something, and so many of them see and come rushing up to you. It breaks your heart."
I think adults converting to Islam might be more of a concern.


Quote
You guys are pikers compared to them. 

What's a piker?

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« Reply #106 on: January 30, 2008, 02:14:11 PM »

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As a Secret Agent for the Phanar you will know that your Patriarch is pro-choice (to his eternal shame, maybe even his damnation.)
"Save the trees and kill the humans."

Abortion never involves choice for the child concerned and often is not very much there for the mother involved either. Abortion is the willful taking of a life innocent if not of original at least of actual sin. It is extremely common in this evil world and outside of the restoration of a Christian order under an Orthodox Tsar will become more and more so. We all tend to make excuses for how twisted and demonized those around us and we ourselves have become...Very few people want to be considered "pro-abortion" or even consider it a "good thing"....but we must have "choice".

The teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is very clear. Abortion is murder. To deny that is damnable certainly.

If the Patriarch in question is indeed "pro-choice" and teaches such publically he is a heretic- he is conciously going aganist the teachings of the Orthodox Church and as such is no Patriarch at all. That no one has broken with him over this shows those who have eyes to see how far we have fallen.

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« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2008, 02:40:51 PM »

Abortion never involves choice for the child concerned and often is not very much there for the mother involved either. Abortion is the willful taking of a life innocent if not of original at least of actual sin. It is extremely common in this evil world and outside of the restoration of a Christian order under an Orthodox Tsar will become more and more so. We all tend to make excuses for how twisted and demonized those around us and we ourselves have become...

Ah, a tyrannical Tzar, what a great solution; I would rather see the death of hundreds of millions that the institution of another such hideous and autocratic government on this earth.

Quote
Very few people want to be considered "pro-abortion" or even consider it a "good thing"....but we must have "choice".

Yes, we must have freedom above all else.

Quote
The teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is very clear. Abortion is murder. To deny that is damnable certainly.

The 'teaching of the Orthodox Church' isn't even clear on whether or not an eternal hell even exists...much less the details of what will send you there. Roll Eyes

Quote
If the Patriarch in question is indeed "pro-choice" and teaches such publically he is a heretic- he is conciously going aganist the teachings of the Orthodox Church and as such is no Patriarch at all. That no one has broken with him over this shows those who have eyes to see how far we have fallen.

Without a formal declaration from the Synod of Constantinople there is no heresy; your accusations of heresy, as though you are qualifed to make that determination, is nothing but libel.
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« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2008, 08:31:56 PM »

Abortion never involves choice for the child concerned and often is not very much there for the mother involved either. Abortion is the willful taking of a life innocent if not of original at least of actual sin.

I agree, abortion is the wilful taking of an innocent life. You are completely correct, but what I find interesting is that the murdering of innocents via war is also sin and isn't the Church merciful to such an act? Why then would a woman who aborts a pregnancy that would take her life not be afforded the same mercy? If taking life in war or in self-defence is somehow justifiable and receives the mercy of the Church why not the taking of life in the instance of abortion?

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It is extremely common in this evil world and outside of the restoration of a Christian order under an Orthodox Tsar will become more and more so.

Huh

Quote
We all tend to make excuses for how twisted and demonized those around us and we ourselves have become...Very few people want to be considered "pro-abortion" or even consider it a "good thing"....but we must have "choice".

Indeed we must have a choice, just as we have a choice to take up arms and murder during times of war, to protect the living. Why would a woman be denied such a right; to protect the living - herself?

Quote
The teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is very clear. Abortion is murder. To deny that is damnable certainly.

So abortion is the "unforgiveable sin"?

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If the Patriarch in question is indeed "pro-choice" and teaches such publically he is a heretic- he is conciously going aganist the teachings of the Orthodox Church and as such is no Patriarch at all. That no one has broken with him over this shows those who have eyes to see how far we have fallen.

It is in no way certain what the Patriarch in question actually said. We have an ellipsis in the midst of a reported quote. This is hearsay. Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but I'm going to need just a little more evidence than an incomplete hearsay quote before I would even think for a moment that anyone is a heretic.

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« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2008, 09:23:03 PM »

My wife and I practice contraception to our shame. There. I've said it outside of the confessional. I don't see it as something to be proud of nor do I see it as something the Church in any other way than with compassion for our weaknesses. My wife and I rationalize our use of contraception because she has a medical condition which Doctors tell us should be addressed before we have anymore children.

Nothing to be ashamed of here, in my opinion. You are not aborting a fetus, nor are you doing it because you don't want the struggle of raising a child.

It is not a sin to prevent other children from living in poverty. In fact, it would seem to be a greater sin to continue reproducing and fall into poverty while harming everyone in the family inadvertently.
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« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2008, 09:29:44 PM »

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Tough Questions


Question 1:


If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?
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Your answer to the abortion question?

If you said YES, you just killed Beethoven.


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« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2008, 10:02:08 PM »

I don't see how the above is relavent. It seems to me to be more an emotive argument than rational. God doesn't stop inspiring talented people. The crying shame is that many potentionally brilliant people have died in the womb or during infancy; a result of this fallen world.

For myself, because of my own beliefs, I would not suggest to anyone that they have an abortion, but if they considered it their only option - ie; the pregnancy would cost them their life, it would be their choice and I would forgive them for making it.

 
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« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2008, 10:20:40 PM »

I don't see how the above is relavent. It seems to me to be more an emotive argument than rational. God doesn't stop inspiring talented people. The crying shame is that many potentionally brilliant people have died in the womb or during infancy; a result of this fallen world.

And it is ultimately a silly argument when you follow it's logic to the end.  How many people have been killed by being burned at the stake, at the hands of religious wars, how much free expression has been stifled by religious institutions etc. Therefore if one wants to be pro-life why not support the eradication of religion?  For the that matter, how about the higher rates of disease in overpopulated areas and people killed by those diseases? 
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« Reply #113 on: January 31, 2008, 01:31:09 AM »

ANY law limits someone's choice.  Society balances a person's freedom to choose with the effect that choice has on society.  The logic of the whole "pro-choice" position seems to me to lead to a society of VERY selfish people.  Oh but wait a minute, that is the society we live in.  One of very selfish people.

A few thoughts based on knowing people who've had abortions, knowing people who were adopted out of horrible circumstances, talking with my mother who specializes in counseling sexually abused children after they are removed from their home, having 5 children myself, working in prisons and with troubled youth which many people in society would like to have seen aborted, etc.

In general, those women who get pregnant, are poor, on drugs, etc. or maybe just don't think they can take care of it, but are sincerely worried about bringing their kid up in that environment either give it up for adoption, or tragically, have the baby thinking they can take care of it, don't care for it like they thought it would, then get it taken away.

And in general, woman of all circumstances who don't want to be inconvenienced by the child, kill it in the womb.  A society that thinks these woman are doing the child a favor is just a plain sick society.

And although many would like to make this the Rhetoric list.  As an Orthodox Christian who believes one day he'll meet his maker, I'd sure rather be on the side of saving babies/fetuses than on the side of justifying the killing of them for people's convenience.  And don't kid yourself, most abortions aren't to save the fetus from a life of misery, it's to save the mother from the trouble of taking care of it. And in general people who want to protect a mother's right to murder, are really just worried about protecting their own vices.  And some just like reading/hearing themselves argue.
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« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2008, 01:41:27 AM »

Also, people throw out these red herrings about the mother's life, rape, etc.  They are a small percentage of abortions. In 2000 study I saw 3.3% of abortions were because or risk to fetal health, 2.8% because of risk to mother, and 1% because of rape.  Why on earth would anyone object to a law where these types of abortions are left to the mother and her doctor, and the other 92.9% abortions of pure selfishness are not allowed?

I would welcome a law allowing abortion in the above 3 circumstances while outlawing the rest versus our current system, but I would lobby towards abortion only as a legal choice when the life of the mother is at stake.

Also, I've read, but don't know if it's accurate or not, that many abortions get reported as due to the life of the mother, etc. when in fact they are not. 
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« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2008, 02:13:00 AM »

I consider myself "Right to Life".

Cut off age, when you know you are pregnant, you should have the baby unless your life is in danger then that's up to you, God and your doctor.

While I'd put a hole in someone's head violently entering my house, I'm against the death penalty.

The state, with all its errors, isn't acceptable to me in sentencing people to death. Innocent men have been and are on death row.
 
I am up in arms about the death penalty. 

Enemy combatants do have a Right to Life, if they surrender.  Although The Fog of War is great and sometimes they even lose that right, accidently of course!  Hey, I was a Marine. If someone might know where the next mortar round is coming from that is going to kill some of my men, he is going to tell me.

A God says "I can look into the future and decide whether the future life of this embryo is so bleak it's better off dead."


Now I have a few questions for the "Right to Life" people:
What is the cut off age for the "Right to Life"? Why do people on Death Row not have a "Right to Life"? Why is the State killing adults acceptable to you? Why aren't you up in arms about the Death Penalty? Why do enemy combatants in war not have a "Right to Life"?
It seems almost as if you view yourselves as some sort of gods that can determine who has a right to live and who dies.
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« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2008, 02:13:51 AM »

In 2000 study I saw 3.3% of abortions were because or risk to fetal health, 2.8% because of risk to mother, and 1% because of rape.  Why on earth would anyone object to a law where these types of abortions are left to the mother and her doctor, and the other 92.9% abortions of pure selfishness are not allowed?
I'm interested to know if you can find online documentation of this study and share the link with us.  I think that would be quite good for this discussion. Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2008, 02:25:10 AM »

I got this from a reference in the following Wikipedia Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#_note-7

This study seems to say that 98% are elective and only 2% are due to rape, incest and the life of the mother.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

I've always seen statistics very similar to these.


I'm interested to know if you can find online documentation of this study and share the link with us.  I think that would be quite good for this discussion. Smiley
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« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2008, 03:07:13 AM »

And although many would like to make this the Rhetoric list.  As an Orthodox Christian who believes one day he'll meet his maker, I'd sure rather be on the side of saving babies/fetuses than on the side of justifying the killing of them for people's convenience.  And don't kid yourself, most abortions aren't to save the fetus from a life of misery, it's to save the mother from the trouble of taking care of it. And in general people who want to protect a mother's right to murder, are really just worried about protecting their own vices.  And some just like reading/hearing themselves argue.

Speak for yourself about protecting your own vices.  Believing that it is impossible to force one's morality on another through the judicial system and legislation is not an indication that one partakes of "vices". 
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« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2008, 03:41:29 AM »

Speak for yourself about protecting your own vices.  Believing that it is impossible to force one's morality on another through the judicial system and legislation is not an indication that one partakes of "vices". 

Well said.  Smiley
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« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2008, 04:55:35 AM »

'livefreeordie',

Wouldn't 'livebymyreligiouscodeordie' have been a more appropriate screen name?
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« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2008, 10:12:36 AM »


So abortion is the "unforgiveable sin"?


An abortion is not an unforgiveable sin.

However someone claiming to be an Orthodox Patriarch publically teaching that it is not a sin if they remain unrepentent does not stand much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let us hope that he repents if he indeed has said such.

Theophan.
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« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2008, 11:04:43 AM »

Nothing I said indicated I want to force people to live the totality of my moral code.  I said I think abortion is wrong and should be limited.  If I say, "Cocaine should be illegal" am I forcing my "complete morality system" on people or am I just saying I think cocaine should be illegal.  What laws do you think should be enforced through the judicial system?

Speak for yourself about protecting your own vices.  Believing that it is impossible to force one's morality on another through the judicial system and legislation is not an indication that one partakes of "vices". 
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« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2008, 11:08:18 AM »

You are funny! Smiley The only time I mentioned religion was in saying because I believe in meeting my maker I want to err on the side of the unborn.  I'm not sure where you see my "religious code" in my post.  I was against abortion when I attended no church and held no creed. And if any one on this board tries to make religion some rhetorical, mathmatical type code, it's you.

GIC resorting to name calling!  That makes my day!

'livefreeordie',

Wouldn't 'livebymyreligiouscodeordie' have been a more appropriate screen name?
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« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2008, 12:24:28 PM »

Nothing I said indicated I want to force people to live the totality of my moral code.  I said I think abortion is wrong and should be limited.  If I say, "Cocaine should be illegal" am I forcing my "complete morality system" on people or am I just saying I think cocaine should be illegal.  What laws do you think should be enforced through the judicial system?

By just saying so? No, you're not forcing it on anyone. But if you were to lobby for a law to this effect, then yes, you would be forcing your 'complete morality system' on people, which would be wrong.
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« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2008, 12:32:35 PM »

You are funny! Smiley The only time I mentioned religion was in saying because I believe in meeting my maker I want to err on the side of the unborn.  I'm not sure where you see my "religious code" in my post.  I was against abortion when I attended no church and held no creed. And if any one on this board tries to make religion some rhetorical, mathmatical type code, it's you.

GIC resorting to name calling!  That makes my day!

I was just pointing out the irony of one who claims to advocate the ideal of 'freedom or death' advocating the usurpation of liberty because of a religious code. And yes, you only mentioned religion once as your reasoning for this position, but that's also the only time you actually gave a reason. The rest of the time you were busy talking about statistics on rape or health, which really doesn't matter to me, if our primary concern is liberty then it is those abortions that are not from forced circumstances that must, first and foremost, be defended. And by creating an accepting culture in those instances, those who have abortions because of the necessity of their situation will find it all that much easier.

(I read a paper from some Scandinavian country (I want to say Sweeden) a while back while researching for a pastoral theology class which established a pretty clear relationship between psychological problems associated with abortion and the social situation and philosophy (read: religion and religiousness) of the woman, which convinced me that the most important thing to do is to create a culture of acceptance for abortion...the professor just 'loved' my paper Grin)
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« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2008, 01:13:54 PM »

Now I have a few questions for the "Right to Life" people:
What is the cut off age for the "Right to Life"? Why do people on Death Row not have a "Right to Life"? Why is the State killing adults acceptable to you? Why aren't you up in arms about the Death Penalty? Why do enemy combatants in war not have a "Right to Life"?
It seems almost as if you view yourselves as some sort of gods that can determine who has a right to live and who dies.
I've noticed that whenever someone speaks about abortion, this is the first thing that's fired back.  It's puzzling really, yet I'll do my best to answer this.

First, the term "Right to Life" is like the word "Christian"; it has several meanings.  When you say you're a Christian, it's not clear at all that you're Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox.  When you say you're a Protestant it's not clear at all what exactly that means either.  Likewise, it's the same with "Right to Life".  Here's what I mean.  All "Right to Life" folks are against abortion; some at any cost while there are those who give leeway for medical reasons (such as to save the mother's life.)  Some "Right to Life" folks abhor the Death Penalty and see it as a contradiction to their cause while some "Right to Life" folks see the Death Penalty as a just since the person on Death Row (supposedly) gave up their right when they murdered another person.  Some "Right to Life" folks see war as evil, but as sometimes unavoidable, while other "Right to Life" folks are complete pacifists and will not take up arms at any cost.

So, while the question asked really has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 'Abortion' (the title of this thread), it still cannot be answered because ALL "Right to Life" people have been unfairly lumped together. 
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« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2008, 01:35:40 PM »

*
Well then, to be perfectly clear --  the Patriarch of the Greeks and the First among Equals believes that married people have the right to choose to kill their unborn children.
This is just about the saddest thing i have heard in years.
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« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2008, 01:37:05 PM »

First, the term "Right to Life" is like the word "Christian"; it has several meanings.  When you say you're a Christian, it's not clear at all that you're Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox.  When you say you're a Protestant it's not clear at all what exactly that means either.  Likewise, it's the same with "Right to Life".  Here's what I mean.  All "Right to Life" folks are against abortion; some at any cost while there are those who give leeway for medical reasons (such as to save the mother's life.)  Some "Right to Life" folks abhor the Death Penalty and see it as a contradiction to their cause while some "Right to Life" folks see the Death Penalty as a just since the person on Death Row (supposedly) gave up their right when they murdered another person.  Some "Right to Life" folks see war as evil, but as sometimes unavoidable, while other "Right to Life" folks are complete pacifists and will not take up arms at any cost.

But that's just what I'm saying. If one takes the view of what "Right to Life" means which you espouse above, then the Right to Life is not an intrinsic, inalienable, absolute right inherent in being human, but rather, a relative, subjective opinion. What you therefore want to impose is a relative truth as though it were an absolute one. So the honest approach would simply be to say that you are "anti-abortion", rather than supporting a "Right to Life". You can't oppose something you see as absolutely negative by using something only relatively positive.  Either the Right to Life is an absolute , inalienable right of all human beings, or you don't have a leg to stand on if you try to impose it as an absolute when in reality, you hold it to be relative and capable of being arbitrarily applied.
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« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2008, 01:45:25 PM »

Nothing I said indicated I want to force people to live the totality of my moral code.  I said I think abortion is wrong and should be limited.  If I say, "Cocaine should be illegal" am I forcing my "complete morality system" on people or am I just saying I think cocaine should be illegal.  What laws do you think should be enforced through the judicial system?

You said:
And in general people who want to protect a mother's right to murder, are really just worried about protecting their own vices.

And that was what I was responding to (the best indication of that is how I quoted that text in my post  Roll Eyes ).  You are accusing people with whom you disagree of being immoral, which is flat out false.  If someone wanted to legalize cocaine or other hard drugs for coherent reasons that could possibly benefit society, it wouldn't be appropriate to respond "you must be a coke addict."  I don't appreciate it being insinuated that since I favor a more libertarian view on a lot of social issues that I am somehow not a real Christian.  Can you find anything in the New Testament to justify a theocracy? 

An abortion is not an unforgiveable sin.

However someone claiming to be an Orthodox Patriarch publically teaching that it is not a sin if they remain unrepentent does not stand much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

God,

Thank you for posting on oc.net.  Although, since you are Almighty and all that why don't you pick a cooler username than GOCTheophan?  And why don't you at least link to a good website such as www.yourgoingtohell.com?




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« Reply #130 on: January 31, 2008, 01:51:56 PM »

By just saying so? No, you're not forcing it on anyone. But if you were to lobby for a law to this effect, then yes, you would be forcing your 'complete morality system' on people, which would be wrong.
Here's another angle for your consideration GiC.  If you were walking alone at night and saw a group of youth rapidly approaching your direction would you feel better knowing that they were law-abiding Christians on their way to a Bible study?  Or, would you be thinking, "Gee, I hope these gents are like me and don't accept others' forced morality on me in the form of laws.  Afterall, just because one group of people say it's not OK to go out and hurt others doesn't mean that we ALL have to believe that way."?  Don't bother to launch into a litany of 'freedoms' and 'suppressions' tirade because we all know the answer; you would be greatful that they followed the law- laws, BTW, that stemmed from someone's 'morality system'.  Ofcoarse, the first thing you would say in this situation is, "Feet, don't fail me now!" which would prove my point.  Cheesy    

So, while we as Christians cannot legislate others into becomming Christians, we absolutely must legally do what we can to end the majority of abortions.    
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« Reply #131 on: January 31, 2008, 02:01:54 PM »

Here's another angle for your consideration GiC.  If you were walking alone at night and saw a group of youth rapidly approaching your direction would you feel better knowing that they were law-abiding Christians on their way to a Bible study?  Or, would you be thinking, "Gee, I hope these gents are like me and don't accept others' forced morality on me in the form of laws.  Afterall, just because one group of people say it's not OK to go out and hurt others doesn't mean that we ALL have to believe that way."?  Don't bother to launch into a litany of 'freedoms' and 'suppressions' tirade because we all know the answer; you would be greatful that they followed the law- laws, BTW, that stemmed from someone's 'morality system'.  Ofcoarse, the first thing you would say in this situation is, "Feet, don't fail me now!" which would prove my point.  Cheesy   

So, while we as Christians cannot legislate others into becomming Christians, we absolutely must legally do what we can to end the majority of abortions. 

The laws and social norms you cite about not hurting or robbing or whatever on the streets can just as easily be ascribed to social contract rather than an religious or moral system's influence.  The former probably has had more impact on the latter, for that matter.
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« Reply #132 on: January 31, 2008, 02:05:57 PM »


Thank you for posting on oc.net.  Although, since you are Almighty and all that why don't you pick a cooler username than GOCTheophan?  And why don't you at least link to a good website such as www.yourgoingtohell.com?


I was merely agreeing with what Fr Ambrose had already said.

Abortion involves the killing of a human innocent of any actual (though of course not Original Sin). Therefore it could well be argued that it is the greatest of all forms of the greatest sin which is killing somebody made in the Image of God (though of course the killing of the All Pure Lord Jesus Christ was much, much worse). Now IF the Patriarch meant what he certainly SEEMS to have meant...well someone claiming to be a representative of Christ and leader of his flock advocating acceptance of such a heinous crime...Put two and two together.

Therefore though God's judgement remains His I will have to agree with Father Ambrose on this one.

Theophan.

Theophan.
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« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2008, 02:59:19 PM »

I was merely agreeing with what Fr Ambrose had already said.

Abortion involves the killing of a human innocent of any actual (though of course not Original Sin). Therefore it could well be argued that it is the greatest of all forms of the greatest sin which is killing somebody made in the Image of God (though of course the killing of the All Pure Lord Jesus Christ was much, much worse). Now IF the Patriarch meant what he certainly SEEMS to have meant...well someone claiming to be a representative of Christ and leader of his flock advocating acceptance of such a heinous crime...Put two and two together.

Therefore though God's judgement remains His I will have to agree with Father Ambrose on this one.

Theophan.

Theophan.
If he is pro-choice, can he even be viewed as Orthodox anymore? Is really the rightful Patriarch of Constantinople?
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« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2008, 03:01:18 PM »

Sorry if I touched a nerve.  I said "vices".  We all have vices.  I have vices.  If you don't have vices, I applaud you.  There must be uncreated light in your confessions!  Wink Saying people have vices though is not the same as saying they must be coke addicts, etc.  I called nobody immoral.  I stated the obvious, the nature of vices and passions is that they cloud and influence our judgement and decision making.  When our nature is to look out for ourselves it's easy to sit at a computer and condemn unborn children to death in the name of personal freedom.  Since I'm no advocate of theocracy and my views on abortion didn't originate with my theology. I'll let you worry about that topic.

You said:
And that was what I was responding to (the best indication of that is how I quoted that text in my post  Roll Eyes ).  You are accusing people with whom you disagree of being immoral, which is flat out false.  If someone wanted to legalize cocaine or other hard drugs for coherent reasons that could possibly benefit society, it wouldn't be appropriate to respond "you must be a coke addict."  I don't appreciate it being insinuated that since I favor a more libertarian view on a lot of social issues that I am somehow not a real Christian.  Can you find anything in the New Testament to justify a theocracy? 


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