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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 55756 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #810 on: March 11, 2010, 01:08:18 AM »

I just discovered that this was not from the Moody institute (my pardon) but from another Baptist Ministry run by a G.Moody.

Yeah, it's not in any way related to the institution.

Regardless they would endorse an "orthodox exorcism/deliverance". You know its true.
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« Reply #811 on: March 11, 2010, 01:28:04 AM »

Regardless they would endorse an "orthodox exorcism/deliverance". You know its true.

No I don't.  Most of them have no idea what Orthodoxy even is, let alone then believe in a "Daemon of Orthodoxy."
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« Reply #812 on: March 11, 2010, 01:37:51 AM »

Regardless they would endorse an "orthodox exorcism/deliverance". You know its true.

No I don't.  Most of them have no idea what Orthodoxy even is, let alone then believe in a "Daemon of Orthodoxy."

Well, for them Orthodoxy=RCC=ACOE=OO

which is why they keep sending us missionaries to convert to the "true faith".

If they don't believe in an "orthodox demon" why would they perform exorcisms on Russian/Greek Orthodox like in that ministry?
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« Reply #813 on: March 11, 2010, 03:15:10 AM »

Well, speaking of exorcisms (and to get a bit back on topic), does anyone know of any Orthodox Priests who have performed a rite of exorcism at an abortion clinic?

In Orthodoxy, can exorcisms be performed on places or only on people?

Either way, I think that it would be a great idea for Orthodox Priests to raise incense and perform some type of prayers for exorcism outside of the abortion clinics in their community. No doubt these places are inhabited by demons.

Anyway, some thoughts?


Selam
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« Reply #814 on: March 11, 2010, 09:10:03 AM »

Regardless they would endorse an "orthodox exorcism/deliverance". You know its true.

No I don't.  Most of them have no idea what Orthodoxy even is, let alone then believe in a "Daemon of Orthodoxy."

Well, for them Orthodoxy=RCC=ACOE=OO

which is why they keep sending us missionaries to convert to the "true faith".

If they don't believe in an "orthodox demon" why would they perform exorcisms on Russian/Greek Orthodox like in that ministry?

Not sure what your point is, Rafa.  Why would I care what Baptists do?  If I believe that the Orthodox Church is the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", which I do, then by definition the other religious organizations that call themselves churches are not, and they have no power over me.  It is my view that these religious organizations are organizations of the Antichrist (even though there may be individual Christians, or even groups of Christians within them).  They cannot perform and exorcism on an Orthodox person because their god has no power over the Holy Spirit, Who is the spirit that should posses an Orthodox Christian.  Why would the fact that some Baptist heretics want to exorcise the Holy Spirit from me bother me in the least when I do not associate with them, or for that matter, anyone that does?  If I am in my own Church praying, and minding my own Salvation, they are not a threat to me.  The real threat to Orthodox Christians are those who call themselves Orthodox, yet teach heresy.  The danger is within, not without.  Those outside the Church can (and one day will) harm our bodies and possessions.  But they have no power over our soul. 
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« Reply #815 on: March 11, 2010, 09:11:16 AM »

Well, speaking of exorcisms (and to get a bit back on topic), does anyone know of any Orthodox Priests who have performed a rite of exorcism at an abortion clinic?

In Orthodoxy, can exorcisms be performed on places or only on people?

Either way, I think that it would be a great idea for Orthodox Priests to raise incense and perform some type of prayers for exorcism outside of the abortion clinics in their community. No doubt these places are inhabited by demons.

Anyway, some thoughts?


Selam

That is certainly kinder and more Christian that what I would like to do to them, and perhaps not such a bad idea.
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« Reply #816 on: March 11, 2010, 11:33:53 AM »

We're not able to say a lot of things with 100% certainty. We should not base our morals on hypothetical cases that may or may not happen at all, and if they do, it is so rare it's statistically not worth talking about. Because when you do that, inevitably other things start being justified. "If that extreme circumstance is okay, why not this slightly less extreme circumstance? Why not this one? Or this one?"

You haven't addressed my point, which was centered around how we would treat someone who gets an abortion after the fact.   I specifically used the example of killing in anger vs. killing in self-defense to prove a point: each one has a different penance, but they're both penanced.  They are both imperfect conditions, but the Church, in her wisdom, treats those who kill in self-defense differently than murderers.  "Oh, the slippery slope!"  What an inane line of reasoning.

Unfortunately our fallen nature causes us to push the envelope in search for validation. Meanwhile, the Church does not fiddle about with things, and says abortion is a sin, and leaves it at that.

The Church also says killing is a sin, always, period.  I neither search for validation, nor do I seek to justify others' actions.  Continue beating your straw-man, though.

Bogdan, I do not even know who you are addressing with your rambling posts.  If you are seeking to admonish me for a belief I don't have, stop it.  You have clearly demonstrated an unwillingness to confront my point, and instead have launched into several self-righteous diatribes (whether they are right or not in substance does not change my observation on the tone and delivery) about how abortion is wrong, clearly ignoring the point I've made earlier (i.e. that no one here is arguing whether or not abortion is wrong).  If your goal is to just post one manifesto after another to a board that already agrees (at least, for some others, to a limited degree), then just start a blog and save us the aggravation.
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« Reply #817 on: March 11, 2010, 12:03:42 PM »

Lets not confuse being jealous for being zealous.
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« Reply #818 on: March 11, 2010, 03:56:45 PM »

Well, speaking of exorcisms (and to get a bit back on topic), does anyone know of any Orthodox Priests who have performed a rite of exorcism at an abortion clinic?

In Orthodoxy, can exorcisms be performed on places or only on people?

Either way, I think that it would be a great idea for Orthodox Priests to raise incense and perform some type of prayers for exorcism outside of the abortion clinics in their community. No doubt these places are inhabited by demons.

Anyway, some thoughts?

Selam
Here is one article discussing an Orthodox exorcism at a previous abortion clinic.
http://www.archangelinstitute.org/religious-ceremonies-to-take-place-on-former-abortion-clinic-site/
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« Reply #819 on: March 11, 2010, 04:17:18 PM »

Annnnnnnnd to those who might think that exorcisms outside of abortion clinics are unnecessary......
In her book, Pagan Meditations, Ginette Paris describes abortion this way:
 
“Abortion is essentially a religious act,  a sacred sacrifice to Artemis.  One aborts an impossible love, not a hatred.”

Paris explains that if we saw abortion as a sacred religious ritual, "it would restore to the act a sense of the sanctity of life. …For those sisters who have chosen the "sacrament" of abortion, we will make sacred the sacrifice."
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« Reply #820 on: March 11, 2010, 05:48:31 PM »

Annnnnnnnd to those who might think that exorcisms outside of abortion clinics are unnecessary......
In her book, Pagan Meditations, Ginette Paris describes abortion this way:
 
“Abortion is essentially a religious act,  a sacred sacrifice to Artemis.  One aborts an impossible love, not a hatred.”

Paris explains that if we saw abortion as a sacred religious ritual, "it would restore to the act a sense of the sanctity of life. …For those sisters who have chosen the "sacrament" of abortion, we will make sacred the sacrifice."

I don't buy the rantings of a misguided pagan, so I certainly don't buy that it's a religious act (unless one is sacrificing them to the devil).  Any place that is the location of the deliberate ending of human life (abortion clinic, prison death chamber) needs to be closed & rehabilitated, including exorcism and a blessing (Agiasmos).
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« Reply #821 on: March 11, 2010, 08:28:49 PM »

Annnnnnnnd to those who might think that exorcisms outside of abortion clinics are unnecessary......
In her book, Pagan Meditations, Ginette Paris describes abortion this way:
 
“Abortion is essentially a religious act,  a sacred sacrifice to Artemis.  One aborts an impossible love, not a hatred.”

Paris explains that if we saw abortion as a sacred religious ritual, "it would restore to the act a sense of the sanctity of life. …For those sisters who have chosen the "sacrament" of abortion, we will make sacred the sacrifice."

I don't buy the rantings of a misguided pagan, so I certainly don't buy that it's a religious act (unless one is sacrificing them to the devil).  Any place that is the location of the deliberate ending of human life (abortion clinic, prison death chamber) needs to be closed & rehabilitated, including exorcism and a blessing (Agiasmos).
I wouldn’t/didn’t purchase this author’s neopagan book, but she believes it is an honorable idea to consider aborted babies a sacrifice to her demonic god.  Very disturbingly, others believe in her view that abortion is a sacrament.
Read the product description from  “the earth's biggest selection of books website” for another of her pagan books, The Psychology of Abortion.

“Issues of life and death, love and responsibility are at the core of every religion. That is why the English translation of this book was originally published with the title The Sacrament of Abortion, as it shows that the decision to abort may also spring from a religious feeling that it is the "right" thing to do, both physically and spiritually. As Ginette Paris writes, "Abortion is about love, life, and death." Since its original publication, the book has ben widely used in abortion clinics in Canada and in France and has even been given by some doctors to each and every women who had the procedure, along with pain killers.”
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Jeremiah 19:5  Said the Lord, “They have built high places for Baal to immolate their sons in fire as holocausts to Baal:  such a thing as I neither commanded nor spoke of, nor did it ever enter my mind.”
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« Reply #822 on: March 11, 2010, 09:13:05 PM »

This is more evidence that the war against Life is one of satan's main priorities. This is indeed a spiritual battle, and that's why I believe so firmly that Orthodox Christians must engage this fight with vigilance. We cannot be naive. We have to recognize the pagan religious zeal behind abortion, and we have to be willing to be proactive in preserving and protecting Life. And preserving and protecting Life means reaching out to women, abortionists, clinic employees - and of course - the unborn.

We need our Priests to lead us, encourage us, and instruct is in how to effectively and proactively engage in this spiritual battle. The forces of abortion are proactive. They are vocal and visible. So why do those of us who possess the Sacramental graces and the spiritual power of Christ and His Church remain reluctant to go out into the world and fight this war for Life?

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
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« Reply #823 on: March 11, 2010, 10:06:59 PM »

The word "Holocaust" means "sacrifice" by the way. A sacrifice of unborn to Satan.
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« Reply #824 on: March 12, 2010, 02:22:23 AM »

"And it was the fifth fallen angel (demon), named Kasdeja, who showed the children of men the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that is might pass away."   [Enoch 69:12]   


Selam
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« Reply #825 on: March 12, 2010, 03:22:45 PM »

If they don't believe in an "orthodox demon" why would they perform exorcisms on Russian/Greek Orthodox like in that ministry?

I wonder if they believe in the "Demon of Schism/Sectarianism"?
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« Reply #826 on: March 12, 2010, 05:42:26 PM »

If they don't believe in an "orthodox demon" why would they perform exorcisms on Russian/Greek Orthodox like in that ministry?

I wonder if they believe in the "Demon of Schism/Sectarianism"?

Ha! Grin


Selam
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« Reply #827 on: March 12, 2010, 06:44:21 PM »

Here is an example of a person profiting from this demonic industry who wasn't an abortion clinic employee.  Angie the Anti-Theist polluted the blogosphere three weeks ago when she live-tweeted her abortion in order to help humanity.  She needed to  “demystify abortions for other women.”  She also filmed her abortion for youtube.   On Tuesday, she plugged her new book on CNN. It is titled, Birth and Death, Life of a Newborn Cult.

To show my disgust,  here is a disgusting rag as a reference.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/27/angie-jackson-abortion-tw_n_478495.html

Non-disgusting reference
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/abortion-tweeter-angie-jackson-sets-sparks-flying-across-internet/19378013
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« Reply #828 on: March 12, 2010, 06:48:49 PM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.
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« Reply #829 on: March 12, 2010, 11:57:32 PM »

Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

Thank you for saying this.  I used to know this guy in a "Christian Black Metal" band that would purchase Satanic Bibles and then as a part of their on-stage circus he would burn them and rip them up on stage.

I used to try and explain the concept of assigning something power; that by ripping up the thing, you were giving it power.  He could never figure that out.  I also pointed out on several occasions that his purchasing the books only encouraged them to publish more of them, and that the royalties were heading off to the Church of Satan.
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« Reply #830 on: March 13, 2010, 12:48:11 AM »

People who have been sexually abused tend to suffer more from Borderline Personality Disorder in addition to more serious mental illness and drug/alcohol addiction.  What "antitheistangie" has done is nothing more than dramatizing a personal choice.  One can be diagnosed as Borderline and Narcissistic along with many other illnesses.

Because of her past self-admitted sexual abuse background, she likely has no concept of boundaries and she admits on her Twitter feed that she has no income pending a Social Security Disability hearing; hence, the outlandish behavior.  While her behavior may appear narcissistic and irritating to others, she thinks it is the only way for her to relate with the outside world.  If she makes any significant money from her outside pursuits, her disability claim will likely be denied.
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« Reply #831 on: March 13, 2010, 02:39:50 AM »

^ No concept of boundaries?   Hmmmm.....She is not afraid of rejection, doesn’t feel disempowered, clearly “serves herself”,  isn’t overly concerned about taking care of others/her infant, and she has sufficient self-esteem to allow herself to confidently tell her abortion story and advertise her blog/book in front of millions of people on CNN.  IMO, she might only be deficient in moral boundaries.
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« Reply #832 on: March 13, 2010, 03:06:27 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

"Like all bloggers.... profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder..."  Hmmmm, Professor Ytterbium, you have made a dubious generalisation, methinks.  How many of us have concluded that Bishop Seraphim (Sigrist) is exhibiting, let alone profiting from, Narcissistic Personality Disorder?  Many of us enjoy his blog.

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There are priests of the Orthodox Church who have blogs.....  as well, dear Professor, as yourself.  It's a great blog.

Blog address deleted


Father,
We aren't supposed to link blogs unless they are relevant to the topic.  These blogs had nothing to do with abortion.
Salpy


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« Reply #833 on: March 13, 2010, 03:07:37 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

How do you feel about victims of childhood sexual abuse being labeled narcissists?   Huh

Since Jaycee Dugard appeared on People Magazine after enduring 18 years of captivity and bearing 2 children to a pedophile, what do you think of her appearance?  Should Ms. Dugard have gone underground like ... Tiger Woods or Ben Roethlisberger?

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« Reply #834 on: March 13, 2010, 05:26:46 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

How do you feel about victims of childhood sexual abuse being labeled narcissists?   Huh

Since Jaycee Dugard appeared on People Magazine after enduring 18 years of captivity and bearing 2 children to a pedophile, what do you think of her appearance?  Should Ms. Dugard have gone underground like ... Tiger Woods or Ben Roethlisberger?


What does that have to do with anything we're discussing here?  I don't see the connection.
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« Reply #835 on: March 13, 2010, 05:44:37 AM »


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« Reply #836 on: March 13, 2010, 06:07:03 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black! I would have said just about the same for you. I think you could use a nice long vacation away from the keyboard you angrily type behind. By the way, love the blog dude. I think this was my favorite entry of yours when describing those you formerly worked with,  "Those *******************!"
Nice dude, real nice! 
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« Reply #837 on: March 13, 2010, 06:13:29 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

"Like all bloggers.... profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder..."  Hmmmm, Professor Ytterbium, you have made a dubious generalisation, methinks.  

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 I wonder what constitutes a narcissist?  Could it be 8.123 posts per day in under three years?  Cheesy
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« Reply #838 on: March 13, 2010, 06:58:31 AM »

Nacho, Gabriel, Yman,
You three so much remind me of growing up with my two brothers!  The constant picking at each other, mocking each other, teasing each other, the rivalry, the competition. What a martyrdom our poor parents had to endure! Knowing one another's weaknesses and failings was something we used against each other growing up together. Now its what has made us realise how little different we are.
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« Reply #839 on: March 13, 2010, 03:50:29 PM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

How do you feel about victims of childhood sexual abuse being labeled narcissists?   Huh

Since Jaycee Dugard appeared on People Magazine after enduring 18 years of captivity and bearing 2 children to a pedophile, what do you think of her appearance?  Should Ms. Dugard have gone underground like ... Tiger Woods or Ben Roethlisberger?


What does that have to do with anything we're discussing here?  I don't see the connection.

Narcissism does not need to be stigmatized even though many of us do not like the behaviors and their outcomes.  Jaycee Dugard was on the cover of People Magazine and was recognized as a hero for withstanding 18 years of abuse in her captivity.  "antitheistangie" decides to broadcast her own RU-486 induced abortion for all posterity.  The analogy to Tiger and Ben was a stretch.   angel
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« Reply #840 on: March 13, 2010, 08:20:04 PM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

"Like all bloggers.... profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder..."  Hmmmm, Professor Ytterbium, you have made a dubious generalisation, methinks.  How many of us have concluded that Bishop Seraphim (Sigrist) is exhibiting, let alone profiting from, Narcissistic Personality Disorder?  Many of us enjoy his blog.

Blog address deleted

There are priests of the Orthodox Church who have blogs.....  as well, dear Professor, as yourself.  It's a great blog.

Blog address deleted
We all do stupid stuff in college. Actually, I didn't remember it still existed. The last entry was May 2006, when I graduated from college. The blog has now been deleted.

But that brings me to a further question: What does bringing that up have to do with the subject of this thread?
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« Reply #841 on: March 15, 2010, 07:06:19 AM »

^ I've never heard of her. Like all bloggers, she's not profiting from the subject of her blog, she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, complicated by ownership of a keyboard. Leave her alone, and she'll go away; make her famous through spreading your objections to her, and she'll be around to annoy you for years to come.

"Like all bloggers.... profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder..."  Hmmmm, Professor Ytterbium, you have made a dubious generalisation, methinks.  How many of us have concluded that Bishop Seraphim (Sigrist) is exhibiting, let alone profiting from, Narcissistic Personality Disorder?  Many of us enjoy his blog.

Blog address deleted

There are priests of the Orthodox Church who have blogs.....  as well, dear Professor, as yourself.  It's a great blog.

Blog address deleted
We all do stupid stuff in college. Actually, I didn't remember it still existed. The last entry was May 2006, when I graduated from college. The blog has now been deleted.

But that brings me to a further question: What does bringing that up have to do with the subject of this thread?

Dear Professor, 

You wrote above "Like all bloggers.... she's profiting from Narcissistic Personality Disorder..." 

I felt that was a quite bad generalisation and since I have observed that you correct people's grammar and stylistic English I thought you would rather appreciate having this brought to your attention.   Generalisations like that can militate against a writer's argument.
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« Reply #842 on: March 15, 2010, 04:49:02 PM »

Any priest saying the Church has "no" problem with it is just uninformed.

Since the Priest who said this graduated from Catholic University in the early 1950's and his Associate Priest in the 1970's, I doubt that they are "uninformed"

Sounds to me like the Church in the "real world" may be modifying its views.

Say rather that far too many people (clergy included) have a problem with submission. Something the Lenten period is a good time to work on.

EDIT DUE TO PERSONAL IDIOCY -- -- Wow...I'm only 6 years late with that response. Perhaps I should pay more attention to date stamps. Wink Whoops!
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« Reply #843 on: January 26, 2011, 07:22:05 PM »

Deleted ~ wrong thread
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« Reply #844 on: August 21, 2011, 06:13:51 PM »

The following posts originally submitted here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38983.msg628951.html#msg628951   - PtA



And so I might regard Russia (both before, and after the era of the Soviet Union) as a protector of true Christian moral virtue and allegiance to Jesus Christ in principle.  
Russia has one of the highest, if not the very highest, rate of abortions in the world today.
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« Reply #845 on: August 21, 2011, 06:29:31 PM »

And so I might regard Russia (both before, and after the era of the Soviet Union) as a protector of true Christian moral virtue and allegiance to Jesus Christ in principle. 
Russia has one of the highest, if not the very highest, rate of abortions in the world today.

Indeed.  As far as I've found (don't have the figures off hand, but I could dig them up), all of Eastern Europe (mostly Eastern Orthodox) does.  And when they like to say that Communist oppression is at fault, I might have agreed with that except that Greece has never been under the oppression of Communist rule, and yet it has nearly as high an abortion rate as Serbia, Bulgaria and the others.

(Can any one inform... is there a majority-Orthodox country that has a *low* rate of abortion currently?)
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« Reply #846 on: August 21, 2011, 06:41:10 PM »

And so I might regard Russia (both before, and after the era of the Soviet Union) as a protector of true Christian moral virtue and allegiance to Jesus Christ in principle. 
Russia has one of the highest, if not the very highest, rate of abortions in the world today.

Indeed.  As far as I've found (don't have the figures off hand, but I could dig them up), all of Eastern Europe (mostly Eastern Orthodox) does.  And when they like to say that Communist oppression is at fault, I might have agreed with that except that Greece has never been under the oppression of Communist rule, and yet it has nearly as high an abortion rate as Serbia, Bulgaria and the others.

(Can any one inform... is there a majority-Orthodox country that has a *low* rate of abortion currently?)
Cyprus
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-cyprus.html
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« Reply #847 on: August 21, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »

And so I might regard Russia (both before, and after the era of the Soviet Union) as a protector of true Christian moral virtue and allegiance to Jesus Christ in principle.  
Russia has one of the highest, if not the very highest, rate of abortions in the world today.

Indeed.  As far as I've found (don't have the figures off hand, but I could dig them up), all of Eastern Europe (mostly Eastern Orthodox) does.  And when they like to say that Communist oppression is at fault, I might have agreed with that except that Greece has never been under the oppression of Communist rule, and yet it has nearly as high an abortion rate as Serbia, Bulgaria and the others.

(Can any one inform... is there a majority-Orthodox country that has a *low* rate of abortion currently?)
Cyprus
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-cyprus.html

Dear Ialmisry -

somehow I doubt that there are no abortions in Cyprus.  So they are not reported... does that mean they are illegal there?  (I could look it up, but I'd like you to answer.)  If abortion is illegal in Cyprus, good for them.  It would be a clear statement on morality and solid identification with historic Christian principles... of course I would wonder then, what sins are hidden?  (Just a wonder, it isn't for me to know.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 06:52:21 PM by Aaron M » Logged
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« Reply #848 on: August 21, 2011, 07:08:42 PM »

And so I might regard Russia (both before, and after the era of the Soviet Union) as a protector of true Christian moral virtue and allegiance to Jesus Christ in principle.  
Russia has one of the highest, if not the very highest, rate of abortions in the world today.

Indeed.  As far as I've found (don't have the figures off hand, but I could dig them up), all of Eastern Europe (mostly Eastern Orthodox) does.  And when they like to say that Communist oppression is at fault, I might have agreed with that except that Greece has never been under the oppression of Communist rule, and yet it has nearly as high an abortion rate as Serbia, Bulgaria and the others.

(Can any one inform... is there a majority-Orthodox country that has a *low* rate of abortion currently?)
Cyprus
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-cyprus.html

Dear Ialmisry -

somehow I doubt that there are no abortions in Cyprus.  So they are not reported... does that mean they are illegal there?  (I could look it up, but I'd like you to answer.)  If abortion is illegal in Cyprus, good for them.  It would be a clear statement on morality and solid identification with historic Christian principles... of course I would wonder then, what sins are hidden?  (Just a wonder, it isn't for me to know.)
why do you wonder, or assUme, what sins are hidden?

As to your questions:
Quote
Abortion in Cyprus has been allowed with restrictions for decades, with the most recent laws dating from 1986.[1] Abortion is only performed if there is a risk of physical or mental harm to the mother, if there is a risk of fetal deformity, or if the patient was raped or had another sexual crime committed against them "affecting the social or family status."[2]

While there is no specific guideline limiting when abortion is permitted under Cypriot law,[2] in practice no abortions have been committed after the twenty-eighth week.[1] Cyprus has a natalist policy[1] and thus will not provide routine abortion procedures in state hospitals, so they are typically performed in private clinics, with hospitals only providing the procedure if the mother is at great risk.[2] As abortions are paid out of pocket by the woman undergoing the procedure, private practitioners can and have performed abortions outside the legal framework.[1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Cyprus
on the last point, we know from the example of the US, how figures are created to fit an agenda.
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« Reply #849 on: August 21, 2011, 07:25:07 PM »

somehow I doubt that there are no abortions in Cyprus.  
I believe that you are correct.
"Perhaps the fact that over half of the main author’s sample do not use adequate contraception should lead us to the conclusion that many Cypriots have abortions or have numerous children. The latter is not the case, and epidemiological statistics for abortion are unavailable. Using the same clinical sample of 840 patients (see Section 12, Sexual Dysfunctions, Counseling, and Therapies), 21.5 percent said they had had an abortion. Examining the statistics from the unpublished Cyprus Family Planning Association study (see Section 9A, Contraception), 20 percent of the total sample of 496 women reported having at least one abortion during the years 1995 to 1997, with 19 percent having at least one from 1985 to 1987. Interestingly, in the 1980s, 25 percent of these women were single, 18 percent were engaged, and 19 percent were married, whereas in the 1990s, only 3 percent were single, with more married women (27 percent) having abortions than before. It is certainly difficult to be certain about precise figures, but a figure of approximately 20 percent of the female population during any one year would be a fair estimate of the incidence of abortion. In the same study, about 7 percent of women had two abortions between the years 1995 to 1997, compared to 11 percent of women who had two between 1985 and 1987. (See also Sociolegal Status of Males and Females, Children and Adults, in Section 1.A.)

It is known that there are about 10,000 births per year, and it has been estimated that there are probably 12,000 to 13,000 abortions yearly. It appears that many Cypriots use abortion as a method of contraception after all else fails. The majority of gynecologists on the island will freely give abortion upon demand, due to a loop-hole in the law amended after the 1974 invasion of Cyprus by the Turks, allowing abortions for women who had been raped by Turkish troops or based on medical grounds with the permission of two medical doctors. This law still exists and allows gynecologists to practice abortion upon demand. There are only two gynecologists on the island whom the author knows that do not perform abortions for ethical and religious reasons.

In the main author’s 1990 survey, Greek Orthodox priests were presented with the following situation involving abortion:

A Christian woman is pregnant with her fourth child, even though her doctor warned her not to have another child as she would be endangering her health. Presently three doctors have told her that if she continues the pregnancy there is a chance that she would die. She has been advised, therefore, to have an abortion. As she is a woman who believes in God, she approaches a priest for advice. (Georgiou, 1990)
The responses selected by the priests were as follows:

•she should listen to the doctors and have the abortion (17.7%)
•she should not have the abortion under any circumstances (60.0%)
•something else (19.3%)
An additional 3.1 percent of the total sample of 130 priests avoided the question."
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/cyprus.html#9

« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 07:25:27 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #850 on: August 21, 2011, 07:41:09 PM »

somehow I doubt that there are no abortions in Cyprus.  
I believe that you are correct.
"Perhaps the fact that over half of the main author’s sample do not use adequate contraception should lead us to the conclusion that many Cypriots have abortions or have numerous children. The latter is not the case, and epidemiological statistics for abortion are unavailable. Using the same clinical sample of 840 patients (see Section 12, Sexual Dysfunctions, Counseling, and Therapies), 21.5 percent said they had had an abortion. Examining the statistics from the unpublished Cyprus Family Planning Association study (see Section 9A, Contraception), 20 percent of the total sample of 496 women reported having at least one abortion during the years 1995 to 1997, with 19 percent having at least one from 1985 to 1987. Interestingly, in the 1980s, 25 percent of these women were single, 18 percent were engaged, and 19 percent were married, whereas in the 1990s, only 3 percent were single, with more married women (27 percent) having abortions than before. It is certainly difficult to be certain about precise figures, but a figure of approximately 20 percent of the female population during any one year would be a fair estimate of the incidence of abortion. In the same study, about 7 percent of women had two abortions between the years 1995 to 1997, compared to 11 percent of women who had two between 1985 and 1987. (See also Sociolegal Status of Males and Females, Children and Adults, in Section 1.A.)

It is known that there are about 10,000 births per year, and it has been estimated that there are probably 12,000 to 13,000 abortions yearly. It appears that many Cypriots use abortion as a method of contraception after all else fails. The majority of gynecologists on the island will freely give abortion upon demand, due to a loop-hole in the law amended after the 1974 invasion of Cyprus by the Turks, allowing abortions for women who had been raped by Turkish troops or based on medical grounds with the permission of two medical doctors. This law still exists and allows gynecologists to practice abortion upon demand. There are only two gynecologists on the island whom the author knows that do not perform abortions for ethical and religious reasons.

In the main author’s 1990 survey, Greek Orthodox priests were presented with the following situation involving abortion:

A Christian woman is pregnant with her fourth child, even though her doctor warned her not to have another child as she would be endangering her health. Presently three doctors have told her that if she continues the pregnancy there is a chance that she would die. She has been advised, therefore, to have an abortion. As she is a woman who believes in God, she approaches a priest for advice. (Georgiou, 1990)
The responses selected by the priests were as follows:

•she should listen to the doctors and have the abortion (17.7%)
•she should not have the abortion under any circumstances (60.0%)
•something else (19.3%)
An additional 3.1 percent of the total sample of 130 priests avoided the question."
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/cyprus.html#9


care to give their account of Italy? Spain? France?

As I said, the USA example has taught us what it means when "estimates" are given, rather than figures.  Dr. Nathanson admitted, after his conversion, to having inflated the numbers, including any vaginal bleeding not from menstruation as an abortion, when he knew of other causes, because it served The Cause.
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« Reply #851 on: August 21, 2011, 07:52:40 PM »

care to give their account of Italy? Spain? France?
Here is an account by others of
Abortion rate per 1000 people:
Russia     19.3
Bulgaria 13.0
France 2.7
Italy 2.3
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

It doesn't look to me like Roman Catholicism is in such bad shape after all. Take a look at the difference in abortion rates for Eastern Orthodox versus Roman Catholic countries.
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« Reply #852 on: August 21, 2011, 08:13:19 PM »

care to give their account of Italy? Spain? France?
Here is an account by others of
Abortion rate per 1000 people:
Russia     19.3
Bulgaria 13.0
France 2.7
Italy 2.3
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

It doesn't look to me like Roman Catholicism is in such bad shape after all. Take a look at the difference in abortion rates for Eastern Orthodox versus Roman Catholic countries.


Abortion Statistics for Italy

For the year 2008:

Live births.... 576,659

Abortions......121,406

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-italy.html
 

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« Reply #853 on: August 21, 2011, 08:20:11 PM »

care to give their account of Italy? Spain? France?
Here is an account by others of
Abortion rate per 1000 people:
Russia     19.3
Bulgaria 13.0
France 2.7
Italy 2.3
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

It doesn't look to me like Roman Catholicism is in such bad shape after all. Take a look at the difference in abortion rates for Eastern Orthodox versus Roman Catholic countries.


Abortion Statistics for Italy

For the year 2008:

Live births.... 576,659

Abortions......121,406

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-italy.html
 



Abortion Statistics for France

For the year 2007:

Live births.... 785,9585

Abortions.......213,382
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« Reply #854 on: August 21, 2011, 08:21:45 PM »

care to give their account of Italy? Spain? France?
Here is an account by others of
Abortion rate per 1000 people:
Russia     19.3
Bulgaria 13.0
France 2.7
Italy 2.3
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

It doesn't look to me like Roman Catholicism is in such bad shape after all. Take a look at the difference in abortion rates for Eastern Orthodox versus Roman Catholic countries.
funny how your source for Cyprus doesn't have as much statistical detail as France, especially as your source states knowledge on Cyprus is scarce, while that on France is widely available.
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/france.html#9

Your source only states that 2,000 French women go to GB for late term abortion. No idea what percentage of the total that is.

You new source, btw, give the figure for Greece at .11.  Unfortunately, I don't believe it is that low, so I can only imagine what the real figures for France and Italy are as well.  Btw, I have no idea where morning after pills (i.e. early abortions) fit in. They certainly aren't counting IUDs and contraceptives here, something important for the Vatican.

Btw
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html
Quote
The most striking recent trend is a sharp decline in abortion incidence in Eastern and Central Europe and the successor states to the Soviet Union. For example, rates fell by 28-47% in the four former Soviet states with reasonably complete data (Belarus, Estonia, Kazakhstan and Latvia), and by 18-65% in six states with less-complete reporting. Similar patterns were seen in such nations as Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech and Slovak Republics. Rates have also declined in several other developed countries: Since 1975, the abortion rate in such countries as Denmark, Finland, Italy and Japan has dropped by 40-50%. In only a few developed countries (among them Canada, New Zealand and Scotland) have abortion rates shown an increase over time. In the few developing countries with reliable data, some (China, South Korea, Tunisia and Turkey) have experienced a declining abortion rate, while others (such as Cuba and Vietnam) have seen increases in levels of abortion.
Why is that?
Quote
In developed countries with high abortion rates, use of abortion is likely to fall rapidly when a range of contraceptive methods become widely available and effectively used. Legalization of abortion and access to abortion services do not lead to increased reliance on abortion for fertility control in the long term; in developed countries with these conditions, the predominant trend in abortion rates has been downward.
of course, according to the Vatican, that's one and the same thing.
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