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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 54165 times) Average Rating: 1
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #765 on: March 09, 2010, 06:41:01 PM »


Still, that EP concurs with deliberate abortion is a bold-face lie,


It is as he has been reported, and as we have seen, there are senior clergy etc. who understand him that way.  I am sure they are not being frivilous.
The fact that many authorities, be they senior clergy or seemingly perspicacious writers, understand His All Holiness that way doesn't mean that His All Holiness intended to be understood that way.  These "authorities" may truly have been totally serious in their work to understand the Patriarch's words, but it is still nothing more than their thoughts that they're expressing.  Whether or not they're totally cognizant of what they're doing, they're still very likely projecting their own interpretations and definitions of words into the soundbites they read or hear from the Patriarch's statements.

His Divine All-Holiness has done nothing to correct the confusion which his reported words have caused in the souls of the faithful,
Has His All Holiness been made aware of the confusion his reported statements have caused?
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« Reply #766 on: March 09, 2010, 07:12:42 PM »

In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. Cry
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

That is what I have heard from medical professionals I know (specifically a registered nurse I know who works with pregnant women on a daily basis). In the modern world, abortion is essentially never necessary to save the mother's life.

That is why the abortion debate, in America at least, focuses on the health of the mother, not the life of the mother. Yes, mental health. Depression is grounds to murder a baby. Wow.
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« Reply #767 on: March 09, 2010, 07:24:26 PM »

In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. Cry
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

That is what I have heard from medical professionals I know (specifically a registered nurse I know who works with pregnant women on a daily basis). In the modern world, abortion is essentially never necessary to save the mother's life.
And yet, isn't it within the physician's purview to make that decision for each individual case?  We might be able to assert as a general rule that abortion is rarely necessary to save a mother's life, but do we have the understanding of medicine and the details of individual cases to make this general rule applicable to each specific pregnancy?

That is why the abortion debate, in America at least, focuses on the health of the mother, not the life of the mother. Yes, mental health. Depression is grounds to murder a baby. Wow.
I don't disagree with this.
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« Reply #768 on: March 09, 2010, 07:28:14 PM »

Did I hear correctly that the EP is indirectly via his archon funding stem cell research which depends upon aborted babies?  Shocked

I am pretty sure that His All Holiness does not fund stem cell research, directly or indirectly. Also, to say that stem cell research "depends on aborted babies" is extremely misleading. First of all, the vast majority of embryos used as donors of stem cells are results of SPONTANEOUS abortions, not deliberate abortions. Second, regardless of what was the reason for a particular embryo or fetus to be placed in the freezer - be it deliberate abortion or spontaneous one, - these embryos are D-E-A-D. One can either discard them totally, or use them in a way that can benefit humanity. Of course, if they were truly human beings (as the teaching of the Orthodox Church implies), they all will be resurrected some day, regardless.

Funny we don't treat the bodies of reposed adults in such a utilitarian way. Nothing is sacred.

We do! I have a special spot in my drivers' licence, indicating that I agree that my organs, in the case of my accidental death, should be used for transplantation. I don't see any non-sanctity in helping other human beings.

That is your choice; an embryo cannot consent to that. Furthermore, they are bought and sold like commodities, so they have no legal guardian like a postnatal infant does, thus no one to give permission.

Do they conduct funerals for these embryos after they are stripped of anything of value like so many used cars on the way to the junkyard?

Well, I think organs should be used for transplantation when they can be used. In fact, I believe the Orthodox Church will some day voice Herself in this issue, affirning this, because actually to oppose it means to doubt God's power in resurrection of the body.Smiley

As for "junkyard," these freezers where the embryos are kept, they already are junkyards.

...Because the prenatal infants were already murdered. Any positive outcome from embryonic stem cell research is invalidated by the fact murder was committed to make it possible.

It's like the film Soylent Green. "Soylent Green is people!!!" Sure, people need to eat, even when there is a famine. But we don't kill people and make them into food, no matter how many people are starving.

Its cannibalism/Vampirism. Extend your life on based on that of the unborn. There's a reason human beings aren't plants which have infinite stem cells, a reason why God did not want us to have them as adults.
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« Reply #769 on: March 09, 2010, 09:18:00 PM »


If Gebre feels like rebuking women who have abortions is his path to salvation, then so be it.  If he's willing to take the verbal abuse, the arrests and the harassment, I respect him for standing up for his beliefs.  However, his path to a non-guaranteed salvation is not the same as mine, nor anyone else's on this forum.

Brother, I respectfully ask you to stop misreresenting my views and deliberately distorting my Orthodox beliefs. When have I ever said that "my path to salvation is guaranteed" or that "I feel like rebuking women?"

I have repeatedly said that all those involved in abortion need to be addressed with love, compassion, mercy, and rebuke. I know it's more convenient for you to make a caricature of my position, but it's neither honest nor productive to the conversation.

Eh, you've admitted that you've spoken to women before and after they visited an abortion clinic.  I'm sorry that you view my comments as a caricature of your position.  I would not resort to making a caricature of anyone's beliefs just to prove my point besides trying to understand what those beliefs are....
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« Reply #770 on: March 09, 2010, 09:52:23 PM »

...Because the prenatal infants were already murdered. Any positive outcome from embryonic stem cell research is invalidated by the fact murder was committed to make it possible.

It's like the film Soylent Green. "Soylent Green is people!!!" Sure, people need to eat, even when there is a famine. But we don't kill people and make them into food, no matter how many people are starving.
Uh...we don't make them into food, but we do consume them.  The oral polio vaccine (Poliovax) by Aventis Pasteur is made from aborted fetus' stem cell lines.  Yes, there are other alternatives such as the IPOL polio vaccine from monkey kidney cell lines.
 
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« Reply #771 on: March 09, 2010, 10:40:14 PM »


It is as he has been reported, and as we have seen, there are senior clergy etc. who understand him that way.  I am sure they are not being frivilous.
The fact that many authorities, be they senior clergy or seemingly perspicacious writers, understand His All Holiness that way doesn't mean that His All Holiness intended to be understood that way.  

In the absence of contrary evidence....

His Divine All-Holiness has done nothing to correct the confusion which his reported words have caused in the souls of the faithful,
Quote from: PeterTheAleut
Has His All Holiness been made aware of the confusion his reported statements have caused?

Yes. Read previous posts in the thread.
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« Reply #772 on: March 09, 2010, 10:59:35 PM »

I have never seen an official decree or document from the Church that says that Abortion is OK.

However, just as the treatment of those guilty of killing an adult is different based on circumstance (i.e. premeditated vs. accidental vs. self-defense vs. in war), it is likewise treated circumstantially with abortion (i.e. convenience vs. saving the mother's life).  Just as the Church does not say that killing in war or self-defense is OK, she does not say that abortion is OK; however, just as she also doesn't say that killing in self-defense is the same as killing from hatred, so she will also not equate convenience abortion with saving-the-mother abortion.

Father George,

You are of course dealing with the crux of the matter.  Many of those who read the reported words of His Divine All-Holiness believe he is not upholding th Church's teaching on abortion and that he is allowing couples to decide for abortion "at their convenience."    This is the way his reported words are read. 

The next step is for HDAH to fulfill his obligation to "rightly divide the word of truth"  and to clarify his reported words which have brought moral confusion to the faithful.  Either, "Yes, I was reported correctly and abortion is not a matter of concern for the Church (i,e., it is morally neutral) and should be left to the discretion of the couple"... or, "No, I was reported wrongly and let me explain the authentic teaching of the Church....."

This is what has been the essential thrust of this discussion since its inception, at least for me.  The reported words of His Divine All-Holiness have created a moral morass of confusion on the permissibility of abortion for the Orthodox.  The morass needs to be clarified.  It hardly matters if he was reported correctly or whether people are interpreting him correctly (something which bothers PtA.)  What matters is that the words from the Patriarch, rightlyn or wrongly, are having a pernicious effect for the faithful and they must be addressd by the Patriarch.

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« Reply #773 on: March 09, 2010, 11:06:28 PM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?
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« Reply #774 on: March 10, 2010, 01:30:18 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?
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« Reply #775 on: March 10, 2010, 02:25:17 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...
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« Reply #776 on: March 10, 2010, 02:33:29 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...

I was told that your Patriarch lives in a trailor in a trailor park in Illinois.  Where does the rival Patriarch live?   And how is it that one of the bishops has a house in three of the world's major capitals while the Patriarch is in a trailor??!!
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« Reply #777 on: March 10, 2010, 02:45:37 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...

I was told that your Patriarch lives in a trailor in a trailor park in Illinois.  Where does the rival Patriarch live?   And how is it that one of the bishops has a house in three of the world's major capitals while the Patriarch is in a trailor??!!

Surely you must have misread something. I can't possibly believe the Patriarch is living in a trailer (even though I know he was living in a somewhat humble setting, a house shared with others). Maybe your patriarch living in such a dismal setting is the fake patriarch of the "church of the East abroad" a bogus group not connected with the ACOE in any way. I can't believe that since if the Bishops don't live in such substandard conditions...how much less the patriarch?
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« Reply #778 on: March 10, 2010, 02:53:52 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...

I was told that your Patriarch lives in a trailor in a trailor park in Illinois.  Where does the rival Patriarch live?   And how is it that one of the bishops has a house in three of the world's major capitals while the Patriarch is in a trailor??!!

Surely you must have misread something. I can't possibly believe the Patriarch is living in a trailer (even though I know he was living in a somewhat humble setting, a house shared with others). Maybe your patriarch living in such a dismal setting is the fake patriarch of the "church of the East abroad" a bogus group not connected with the ACOE in any way. I can't believe that since if the Bishops don't live in such substandard conditions...how much less the patriarch?

I understand that the schism which afflicts your poor Church is evenly spread  - about 6-8 bishops in either Church.

I also understand that your Patriarch Mar Dinka has offered to step down from office and he does not want any successor to be chosen for him but for his part of the Church to be folded into the other Patriarch's half.....  so obviously he does not see him as a fake nor as a bogus group, as you write above!

In this country although we have both Assyrian Churches, it doesn't seem to worry them too much and there is a lot of mingling, liturgically too. 
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« Reply #779 on: March 10, 2010, 03:00:17 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...

I was told that your Patriarch lives in a trailor in a trailor park in Illinois.  Where does the rival Patriarch live?   And how is it that one of the bishops has a house in three of the world's major capitals while the Patriarch is in a trailor??!!

Surely you must have misread something. I can't possibly believe the Patriarch is living in a trailer (even though I know he was living in a somewhat humble setting, a house shared with others). Maybe your patriarch living in such a dismal setting is the fake patriarch of the "church of the East abroad" a bogus group not connected with the ACOE in any way. I can't believe that since if the Bishops don't live in such substandard conditions...how much less the patriarch?

I understand that the schism which afflicts your poor Church is evenly spread  - about 6-8 bishops in either Church.

I also understand that your Patriarch Mar Dinka has offered to step down from office and he does not want any successor to be chosen for him but for his part of the Church to be folded into the other Patriarch's half.....  so obviously he does not see him as a fake nor as a bogus group, as you write above!

In this country although we have both Assyrian Churches, it doesn't seem to worry them too much and there is a lot of mingling, liturgically too.  


Here's the deal: the Ancient Church of the East split because of the PREVIOUS (now non-existing) rule on the Patriarch coming from a specific family (the Dynasty which ended with Mar Shimun). They used the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar as their "official" excuse to split. Once Mar Dinkha was elected, tensions went way down because this rule on who suceeds was abolished. Mar Dinkha is offering to end once and for all the schism by stepping down from his seat if necessary. This will end soon enough, its not as serious as Chaldean-Assyrian, or Jacobite-Assyrian, which just goes on for centuries. Yes, there is mingling, the reason for the schism is pretty much gone.

clarification:

The ancient Church of the East is one half of the church of the East in schism and a legitimate church connected with the COE.

the "church of the East abroad" is a cult of sorts who claim they have a "duchess" in Burma and 25,000 members in burma (fake).
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« Reply #780 on: March 10, 2010, 03:16:45 AM »

I would like to know the EP's position on stem cell research which depends upon abortion. Somebody have link?

The Russian bishops have said something on this topic in their 2000 AD Statement

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/xii/

What has the Assyrian Patriarch Dinka had to say?

...
...
...




I wish I knew. I think this is something very new to the Patriarch so he still has to formulate an opinion on it which is as precise as that of Roman Catholics or the OC. I will check...

I was told that your Patriarch lives in a trailor in a trailor park in Illinois.  Where does the rival Patriarch live?   And how is it that one of the bishops has a house in three of the world's major capitals while the Patriarch is in a trailor??!!

Surely you must have misread something. I can't possibly believe the Patriarch is living in a trailer (even though I know he was living in a somewhat humble setting, a house shared with others). Maybe your patriarch living in such a dismal setting is the fake patriarch of the "church of the East abroad" a bogus group not connected with the ACOE in any way. I can't believe that since if the Bishops don't live in such substandard conditions...how much less the patriarch?

I understand that the schism which afflicts your poor Church is evenly spread  - about 6-8 bishops in either Church.

I also understand that your Patriarch Mar Dinka has offered to step down from office and he does not want any successor to be chosen for him but for his part of the Church to be folded into the other Patriarch's half.....  so obviously he does not see him as a fake nor as a bogus group, as you write above!

In this country although we have both Assyrian Churches, it doesn't seem to worry them too much and there is a lot of mingling, liturgically too.  


Here's the deal: the Ancient Church of the East split because of the PREVIOUS (now non-existing) rule on the Patriarch coming from a specific family (the Dynasty which ended with Mar Shimun).


Didn't Mar Shimun marry an American girl, hoping to father an heir to the patriarchal throne?  But he was assassinated, in the US.  Was that before he had time to produce a child?   Who assassinated him?  Was it your group of Assyrians?  Did the Americans ever bring anyone to trial for killing Patriarch Shimun?

I can imagine that if you are occupied avoiding assassins' knives you don't have much time for writing encylicals on stem-cell research.  I think that the lives of your Patriarchs are much more exciting than our Patriarchs and all we have to talk about are his watch and cigarettes!!  Lol!


When Mar Dinka passes on and the man you call the "fake" Patriarch assumes authority over the whole Church as Mar Dinka desires, will you recognise him and stay with the Church?
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« Reply #781 on: March 10, 2010, 03:45:26 AM »

To imply that Mar Shimun was assassinated by somebody having to do with the current patriarch is conspiracy theory. The circumstances around his death are murky, that for sure. I think your confusing the ancient church of the East and a group called "the church of the east abroad" which is a cult. Archbishop Mar Meelis will assume control of the COE from everything I have heard, after Mar Dinkha passes on. He is negotiating with the ancient church of the east for a reunion with them.
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« Reply #782 on: March 10, 2010, 03:47:08 AM »

Rafa, Who is the COE Patriarch that apparently lives in a trailer park and does He have a website?   Huh

Thank You.   Smiley
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« Reply #783 on: March 10, 2010, 03:51:53 AM »

NOT a COE patriarch. Either of the COE itself or a part of it in schism.


Some guy called "Michael" something like that living in a trailer, previously with his parents. Its a cult, has nothing to do with the COE or the Ancient COE. A bunch of (quite frankly) nutcases:


http://www.indopedia.org/Church_of_the_East_&_Abroad.html
http://churchofjerusalem.org/misconceptions.php
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« Reply #784 on: March 10, 2010, 04:02:29 AM »

Keeping track of the vagante Orthodox Jurisdictions is a lot easier than keeping track of the vagante Church of the East Jurisdictions.   Cheesy
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« Reply #785 on: March 10, 2010, 04:47:40 AM »

NOT a COE patriarch. Either of the COE itself or a part of it in schism.


Some guy called "Michael" something like that living in a trailer, previously with his parents. Its a cult, has nothing to do with the COE or the Ancient COE. A bunch of (quite frankly) nutcases:


http://www.indopedia.org/Church_of_the_East_&_Abroad.html
http://churchofjerusalem.org/misconceptions.php

Nothing in the references about this Michael living in a trailer park.    I'll fish around and see if I can find any reference to Patriarch Dinka doing so.   It may have been before his present humble accommodation which as you say he is obliged to share with other people.
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« Reply #786 on: March 10, 2010, 08:30:14 AM »

In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. Cry
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

That is what I have heard from medical professionals I know (specifically a registered nurse I know who works with pregnant women on a daily basis). In the modern world, abortion is essentially never necessary to save the mother's life.

That is why the abortion debate, in America at least, focuses on the health of the mother, not the life of the mother. Yes, mental health. Depression is grounds to murder a baby. Wow.

This is, again, missing the point - we're not able to say with 100% certainty that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life.  We can say "essentially never necessary," but not "never."  So in the rare, very rare, or extremely quite very certainly supremely rare case that it is necessary, it will be handled differently than in the other cases.
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« Reply #787 on: March 10, 2010, 08:36:21 AM »


This is, again, missing the point - we're not able to say with 100% certainty that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life.


Ms Hoorah wrote above:

" In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. "

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
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« Reply #788 on: March 10, 2010, 11:10:09 AM »

NOT a COE patriarch. Either of the COE itself or a part of it in schism.


Some guy called "Michael" something like that living in a trailer, previously with his parents. Its a cult, has nothing to do with the COE or the Ancient COE. A bunch of (quite frankly) nutcases:


http://www.indopedia.org/Church_of_the_East_&_Abroad.html
http://churchofjerusalem.org/misconceptions.php

Nothing in the references about this Michael living in a trailer park.    I'll fish around and see if I can find any reference to Patriarch Dinka doing so.   It may have been before his present humble accommodation which as you say he is obliged to share with other people.

IIRC Mar Dinkha lives in Skokie (a heavily Jewish suburb of Chicago).  There are no trailer parks there that I've ever heard of, and I've lived most of my life within 10 miles of Skokie.
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« Reply #789 on: March 10, 2010, 03:05:37 PM »

According to Yahoo! Search, there are 61 trailer parks outside of Chicago in places like Des Plaines, Blue Island, Carol Stream, et al.
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« Reply #790 on: March 10, 2010, 03:44:16 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh
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« Reply #791 on: March 10, 2010, 03:45:48 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh

Rafa has to make every thread about the Assyrian Church of the East.
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« Reply #792 on: March 10, 2010, 03:50:16 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh

There was a thin and supple line that led from abortion to stem cell research to Patriarch Dinka to trailer parks.  I think it's all played out now though.   laugh

The Supple Monk

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« Reply #793 on: March 10, 2010, 04:31:24 PM »

According to Yahoo! Search, there are 61 trailer parks outside of Chicago in places like Des Plaines, Blue Island, Carol Stream, et al.

Yes, there are plenty around: one is a mile from me. But  none in  Skokie.
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« Reply #794 on: March 10, 2010, 05:43:09 PM »

An Orthodox Patriarch living in a trailer park? True or not, there's a movie to be made here! Grin


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« Reply #795 on: March 10, 2010, 05:49:35 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh
Clearly this is about Uncle Joe’s Abortion Clinic. Uncle Joe’s Chop Shop is BYOB (Bring Your Own Bucket) and has a mobile unit that visits trailer parks.  Read for yourself.  (Click ok to abort, then click ok to squelch, and then one more click to read.)
http://www.zgeek.com/unclejoes/
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« Reply #796 on: March 10, 2010, 05:59:11 PM »

According to Yahoo! Search, there are 61 trailer parks outside of Chicago in places like Des Plaines, Blue Island, Carol Stream, et al.

Yes, there are plenty around: one is a mile from me. But  none in  Skokie.

Just checked my atlas.  Skokie is next to Evanston, home of Northwestern U.  There is a campground less than 3 miles from the University of Maryland College Park.  Are there campgrounds in Evanston/Skokie or nearby areas since one man's mobile home could be another man's trailer park AND Gypsies are known to drive RVs.   Huh

So, the Patriarch Mar Dinka could live in a RV with his parents.  Sure would give new meaning to evangelization and further removal of these recent posts from Abortion.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #797 on: March 10, 2010, 06:00:01 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh
Clearly this is about Uncle Joe’s Abortion Clinic. Uncle Joe’s Chop Shop is BYOB (Bring Your Own Bucket) and has a mobile unit that visits trailer parks.  Read for yourself.  (Click ok to abort, then click ok to squelch, and then one more click to read.)
http://www.zgeek.com/unclejoes/

You're not funny.   Sad
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« Reply #798 on: March 10, 2010, 06:03:45 PM »

What do trailer parks have to do with abortion? Huh
Clearly this is about Uncle Joe’s Abortion Clinic. Uncle Joe’s Chop Shop is BYOB (Bring Your Own Bucket) and has a mobile unit that visits trailer parks.  Read for yourself.  (Click ok to abort, then click ok to squelch, and then one more click to read.)
http://www.zgeek.com/unclejoes/

You're not funny.   Sad
That was not meant to be funny.  Did you read the thread in Politics about the Philadelphia abortion clinic and the mad scientist/serial killer doctor?  That situation is not far off from Uncle Joe's.  These clinics are all houses of horror.

My opinion-All abortion clinics need to be closed.  If women are “dying” from their pregnancy, let them bring their obstetrician’s medical referral to a review board at the designated “abortion” hospital for consideration.
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« Reply #799 on: March 10, 2010, 07:32:53 PM »

Patriarch Mar Dinkha lives in a house in Skokie he shares, he does not live in a trailer, do you think Assyrians would put their supreme head in such dismal settings while Bishops live in fairly large houses, while there are probably jets to carry one bishop from Australia to Russia, then to America? The ACOE is not broke by any chance, be it very small.


While searching for a pic of the patriarch's house, I found some cool pics of his holiness shaking hands with JP during the 1994 agreement which condemned all views of the Assyrian Church as heretical by papal bull and vindicated the ACOE after 1500 years:





If the OC Hierarchs were like JP, the church would be in unity once more.

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« Reply #800 on: March 10, 2010, 09:46:16 PM »


If the OC Hierarchs were like JP, the church would be in unity once more.


Under the Antichrist.  Don't worry, it will happen one day.
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« Reply #801 on: March 10, 2010, 09:52:24 PM »

Evangelicals who work for the Antichrist ("whoevers is not with me is against me" Revelations, and also whoever does not receive the Apostles does not recieve Him) say the same thing and they are destroying the church with worthless schisms.
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« Reply #802 on: March 11, 2010, 12:04:42 AM »

Evangelicals who work for the Antichrist ("whoevers is not with me is against me" Revelations, and also whoever does not receive the Apostles does not recieve Him) say the same thing and they are destroying the church with worthless schisms.

I am not sure that Evangelicals can technically go into schism.
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« Reply #803 on: March 11, 2010, 12:30:33 AM »

Let me post here something which will show how ridiculous this "they are heretics" thing is to me, and that currently a War is going on against each and every form of Christianity which is Apostolic and ancient regardless of the tradition. Read this, tell me if these "Christians" are of the same faith as you, then compare with the ACOE or RCC, or the Copts, SOC, Armenians, etc.:


(This is an instruction manual on how to exorcise members of the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholics via evangelicalism, please tell me if this is not the voice of Antichrist. Please tell me after reading this if your not acting like a shiite versus a sunni)

Quote
CATHOLIC SPIRITS

REQUIREMENTS OF INDIVIDUAL - The person to be DELIVERED must be a Believer in JESUS CHRIST in all that He did and taught as presented in the Bible or be willing to become a Believer. If he is baptized in the Holy Spirit, so much the better, but it is not a prerequisite to being DELIVERED. In fact, if he was baptized in the Spirit while he was a member of the Catholic Church, Mormon Church, some Pentecostal denominations, etc., he may have to be DELIVERED of False Baptism and False Gifts. The Holy Spirit is not offended if we try the spirits as the Bible recommends (I Jn. 4:1).

The person, as well as the DELIVERANCE workers, may be anointed with oil. This is optional, except for healing (James. 5:14).

Cleaning Your House - The first requirement for the Christian being DELIVERED is for him to remove from his house (or his room if it is not his house) all Catholic objects, symbols, medals, statues, pictures, holy cards, Catholic bibles, rosaries, crucifixes, missals, Catholic hymn books, relics, votive candles, shrines, sentimental Catholic mementoes, etc. If an object is not his to remove, the person can anoint it with oil and bind its powers from him. If the person does not clean his house, DELIVERANCE will be only partial at best, because these things give legal grounds for demons to stay.

PRAYERS BEFORE DELIVERANCE

General - When finished praying the prayers you have selected, close them in the Mighty Name of JESUS CHRIST. The following prayers spoken by the DELIVERANCE worker are meant to be guidelines, not a firm ritual to be followed, and contain elements we have found to be important: Heavenly Father, we thank You that You have brought (name of person) and this group (or myself) together in a prayer of DELIVERANCE and to do spiritual warfare. We ask You to send warrior angels to do battle for us in the heavenlies. We ask You through Your Holy Spirit to impress intercessors to pray at this time on our behalf. We thank You for sending protecting angels around us, above us and below us. Thank you, JESUS, for being here with us for you said that when two or more are gathered together in your name you are in the mist of them. Thank you for the spiritual authority to use Your Name against the kingdom of darkness. We thank You that the Holy Spirit is here to give us discernment and whatever gifts are needful.

We forbid any transference or communications of evil spirits between any of us here present. Father, we ask You to have the angels remove any evil spirits in the atmosphere assigned to hinder or interfere with this DELIVERANCE. We cut off all evil power sources directed toward us from the kingdom of darkness and from witches, wizards, sorcerers and other people used by the Devil for such purposes. We bind the strong man over this area and in each of the people here present. We ask that all strong men be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

Binding Spirits - The following spirits marked with an asterisk (*) are usually bound for every DELIVERANCE, adding or subtracting as the Holy Spirit leads. At a later date these spirits should be cast out, but for the present they are bound while we cast out their subordinates. The other spirits listed are especially for those who have been in the Catholic system: We bind Leviathan*, Schizophrenia*, Double mindedness*, Doubt*, Unbelief*, Confusion*, Deception* (especially in the ears where it attempts to strain out the truth), Mind Control*, Mind Occult* (comes in with medication and gives power to other spirits), Jezebel*, Death*, Witchcraft*. We bind Mind Bondage, Spiritual Death, Harlotry, Brain Washing, Babylon, False Doctrines, Religious Deception, Spiritual Darkness, Sorcery and Quenching the Spirit, in the Name of JESUS CHRIST (Mat. 16:19; 18:18).

We bind every evil spirit in this person separately so that they cannot help each other or hinder this DELIVERANCE. We command all evil spirits to come out decently and in order. We command violent spirits to come out meekly. None of you will hurt this person, anyone else or any property. (You may ask the Father to have angels keep a person from violence. You may ask for assistance at any time during DELIVERANCE. This really works, Praise the Lord! If the person still gets up or wants to wrestle, it is the person himself not the spirit, and DELIVERANCE should be stopped until he is willing to cooperate.)

We forbid the spirits to move around in this person except to come out. We ask that the Holy Spirit put a wedge behind any spirit that manifests so that it cannot recede. We forbid any retaliation or backlash. We command all evil spirits that are cast out to go with the angels wherever JESUS wants them to go and they cannot return. We ask the Holy Spirit to guide us in immediately filling any vacancy left by evil spirits, so there is no room for them to return.

Unconfessed Sins - If the person has any unconfessed sins he should now repent, ask and receive forgiveness of sins. He should forgive those the Holy Spirit brings to mind. He should forgive himself. If he has blamed God for things the Devil has done in his life, he should repent of this also. A person will know they have really forgiven someone else when the memory of the incident comes to mind and there is a feeling of sorrow that it happened, but no stab of anger, resentment or hatred. Sometimes certain people have to be forgiven many times, because they keep doing the same things that caused the hurt or disappointment in the first place. If you have had an abortion or have been responsible for an abortion (such as the man who fathered the child, or someone who advised or supervised an abortion), this must be confessed as murder.

General Confession Prayer - Lord JESUS CHRIST, I believe that You are the Son of God, that You are the Messiah come in the flesh to destroy the works of the Devil. You died on the cross for my sins and rose again the third day from the dead. I confess all my sins (name any that have not been confessed) and repent. I thank You for bearing my sins, sicknesses and burdens. Thank You for redeeming me. Therefore, Satan, from this moment on has no right to a place in me through the shedding of Your Innocent Blood.

Forgiveness Prayer - Father in Heaven, I confess to You that in the past I have held unforgiveness, bitterness and resentment in my heart against certain people who have hurt or disappointed me. I now recognize this as sin, and that I can only be forgiven by God to the extent that I forgive others. I ask forgiveness in JESUS' Name. You have said in Your Word that if we confess our sins, You are faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I Jn. 1:9). I do now forgive the following people whom I remember who have hurt or disappointed me. (Ask the Holy Spirit to bring them to mind.) I forgive all those people I remember and if any should be brought to mind in days to come, I will quickly forgive them also. I also forgive myself for my many faults and failures. It would be wrong of me to assume I was higher than You by holding things in my heart against myself which You have already forgiven me. I also ask forgiveness, Father, for blaming You for things in my life which I now realize came from Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy. JESUS came to destroy the works of the Devil and has given me authority to use His Name for that purpose also. Thank You, Father, for your everlasting mercy and kindness to me.

Restoring The Soul Prayer - This prayer may be prayed now, at the end of the DELIVERANCE or at some other point according to the direction of the Holy Spirit. We believe it is important to pray it during or after each DELIVERANCE, as more and more of the demonic holds are cast off the person: Heavenly Father, I come to You in the Name of the Lord JESUS CHRIST and I ask You to send angels to gather and restore my soul's fragments. With the full power and authority of JESUS CHRIST, I ask You to send Your angels to unearth and break all earthen vessels, jars, containers, bonds and bindings that have been put upon parts of my soul, willingly or unawares. I ask You to have the angels free my soul from all bondage by whatever means is required, and I agree and say, Father, that the Lord is all powerful and capable of doing this.

Now, Father, I ask You to have the angels take out of my soul any evil portions or fragments of any other person's soul and return the fragments to them. I ask You to have the angels collect and restore to its proper place all the pieces of my fragmented mind, will and emotions. Bring them into proper and original positions perfectly as You planned them when You formed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I ask these things in the name of JESUS CHRIST, God's Son.

Renunciation of Catholic Church - We have found that people who are not yet ready to give up ties to Catholicism, but are willing to be DELIVERED in other areas, can receive some DELIVERANCE. However, for DELIVERANCE to be most effective, a sincere renunciation of the Catholic system is necessary. An example of such a prayer is the following: Heavenly Father, I renounce and repent of my participation in the (Roman, Greek or Russian) Catholic institution. I cancel the effects of all promises made to, oaths taken and rituals performed in the Catholic system by me, my parents, my husband/wife and their ancestors on both sides of the family. I renounce and cancel my allegiance to the Pope as head of The One True Church and to the Vatican as the Holy See. I renounce all false doctrines of the Catholic system:

1. The false doctrine that Mary is our mediator between man and God rather than His Son, JESUS - the Bible says in I Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS." Also see John 14:6.

2. The false doctrine which glorifies Mary more than CHRIST - the Bible says in Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Also in Eph. 1:21, "His Name is above every other Name, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come."

3. The false doctrine which makes Mary the Gate to Heaven instead of CHRIST - the Bible says in Jn. 10:1,7,9, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...Then said JESUS unto them again, verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep...I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." In Jn. 14:6 "JESUS saith unto him; I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Also see Acts 4:12.

4. The false doctrine which gives Mary the power of CHRIST - the Bible says in Phil. 2:9-10. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth." Also in Heb. 7:25, "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

5. The false doctrine of praying to the dead - the Bible says in Deut. 18:10-11, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer." (A necromancer is one who talks to the dead.) Verse 12 says, "For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord:..."

6. The false doctrine of salvation through works - the Bible says in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye save through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

7. The false doctrine of praying to angels - the Bible says in Col. 2:18, "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind..." And in Rev. 22:8-9, "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, see thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the saying of this book: worship God."

8. I renounce and repent of all these false doctrines and all of the other false doctrines of the Catholic system, in the Name of JESUS CHRIST."

Breaking Curses And Soul Ties - At this point, it would be a good idea to pray the Soul Restoration Prayer if it has not been done so during this DELIVERANCE session. Then the person being DELIVERED can continue:

1. I break curses put upon me and my family by the Knights of Columbus or any other Catholic society. I cut all ties and holds between me and the strong man, Jezebel, Queen of Kingdoms, and the Great Harlot.

2. I declare to be broken any bonds, ties, or bindings that hold me to the Catholic system because of my Water Baptism, First Holy Communion, confirmation rituals, marriage vows or sacraments.

3. I break evil soul ties between me and the saints for which I was named. (Catholic people can be DELIVERED of evil spirits that are called by the person's specific baptismal and confirmation names. Call these spirits out using the saint's names and expect a manifestation, specifically, on each name.)

4. I break evil soul ties between me and the saints to which I have prayed. (Call out these evil spirits, using the saint's names.)

5. I repent of bringing Catholic statues or other abominable things into my home, as they come under the category of idols and accursed things. I have removed them from my person, home, car and place of work. (Call out spirits from the person because they had these things. Example: "Any spirits that came in because of these things in the house of (name the person) must come out.")

6. I repent of Baal worship, which is one of the ancestors of the Catholic system. (Call out spirits of Baal, Priests of Baal, Shedding Innocent Blood, Ashtaroth, goddess - mother and wife of Baal, etc.)

7. I repent of idolatry, worship of statues, veneration of statues and relics, and possession of same. (Call out spirits by these names.)

8. I repent of calling priests, Father, for Mat. 23:9 says, And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven. (Call out evil spirits having priest's names.)

9. I break all evil soul ties with all priests and nuns with whom I have had contact or have held in high admiration. (Name the ones the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance and call spirits out by these names. Also call out Fear of Priest and Nuns. If the person wanted to become or did become a nun, call out False Bride of CHRIST and Bride of Satan. Call out Guilt if the person felt they should have been a nun or priest but didn't become one. Also call out Guilt For Leaving The Mother Church.)

10. I renounce praying to Mary and break all curses on me because of this. I cancel any dedication to Mary which may have been done in my behalf. (Call out spirits of Mary from the following: Madonna, Holy Mary, Our Lady, Notre Dame, Mother of God, Dei Mater, Deipara, Theotokos, Mater Dolorosa, The Sorrowful Mother, Queen of Heaven, Regina Coeli, Queen of Angels, Regina Angelorum, Star of the Sea, Stella Maris, The Virgin, The Blessed Virgin, The Black Virgin, Sacred heart of Mary, Hail Mary, Lady of Lourdes, Lady of Fatima, Lady of the Snows, (Other Ladies), The Virgin Mary, The Virgin Mother, Sancta Virgo Virginum, Holy Virgin of Virgins; Virgo Sponsa Dei, Virgin Bride of the Lord, Virgo Clemens, Virgin Most Merciful, Virgo Gloriosa, Virgin Most Glorious, Virgo Potens, Virgin Most Powerful, Virgo Praedicanda, Virgin Most Renowned, Virgo Sapientissima, Virgin Most Wise, Virgo Veneranda, Virgin Most Venerable, Hortus Clusus, Immaculate Conception, Mariology, Mariolatry, Queen of Peace, Queen of Righteousness, Queen of Martyrs, Mother Mary, Queen of Hell, Sovereign Mistress of the Devils, Fayy Fatima-Vexxa Myya (creates a very deep loyalty to Mary), Mariology, Mary Worship, Loyalty to the Church of Mary to the Death (occult in nature and practice), Sodality Fellowships (solidarity in Mary), Mary Seed of Wisdom.11. I repent of the sins of my fathers during the Inquisition in Europe from 1200-1800 A.D. when millions of people were tortured, maimed and killed as heretics because they owned Bibles and obeyed what was in the Bible instead of the church tradition. As the Catholic system has never repented of this, I do so now. I renounce these actions as sin, and repent of them for myself and my family. (Call out spirits of Mental Torment, Murder, Burning, Torture and all kinds of Infirmities.)

12. I break the curse of Jesuit intrigue and deceit over me; CHRIST became a curse for me. I renounce and repent of any association of myself, parents or ancestors (or husband/wife) back on both sides of the family from the beginning of the organization of the Jesuit Order. (Call out spirits of Political Intrigue, Lying, Religious Lying, Pieytheas, Deceit, Subterfuge, Treason, Manipulation, Murder, etc.)

13. I renounce and repent of saying, 'I was born a Catholic and I'll die a Catholic!' I break that curse and call out a Spirit of Death. We do all this in the Name of JESUS CHRIST. (Call out spirits of Death which can include Death and Hades, Osmodeus, Appolyon, Premature Death, Death by Overdose, Death by Terminal Illness, Death by Accident, Death by Drowning, etc. Also call out Destruction Spirits, and Promises to Saints and Mary.)

OTHER NAMES OF DEMONS - The following are paragraphs of other names by which evil spirits may be called out of the person. Obviously, this DELIVERANCE will take a number of sessions. It would be good to pray the Restoration Prayer before and/or after each time of DELIVERANCE. Also use the Closing Prayer after DELIVERANCE.

General - Burning of Votive Candles, Catholic Hymns, Catechism, Penance, Confessional, Confession, Lying in the Confessional, Confirmation, False Baptism, Fear of Priest, Fear of Nun, Fear of Being a Priest or Nun, Relics, Veneration of Relics, Fear of Excommunication, Burning Incense, Blind Obedience to the Priest, One Holy Priesthood, One True Church, Prayers to Saints, Novenas, False Confession, Rosary (this includes spirits of Buddha, because the rosary was adopted from Buddhism, and spirits of Death coming from Buddha), Purgatory, Fear of Judgment and Hell, False Celibacy, Idolatry, Holy Water, Way of the Cross.

Benediction Services - Genuflecting, Sorrowful Mysteries, Joyful Mysteries, Veneration of Saints, Sacred Pictures, Holy Cards, Icons, Sacred Medals, Sacred Heart of JESUS, Sign of the Cross, Crucifix, Belief in the Pope as Head of the Church, Sacred Silence, Jesuit Spirits.

False Religious Rites - Liturgy, Holy Rites, Ceremony, Processional, Litany, Greater or Lesser Litany, Invocation, Invocation of the Saints, Confirmation, Auricular Confession, The Confessional, The Confessionary, Sign of the Cross, Pax, Kiss of Peace, Reciting the Rosary, Telling of Beads, Thurification, Incense, Aspersion, Asperges, Lustration, Seven Sacraments, Mysteries, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, Matrimony, Burning Candles.

Unction - Sacred Unction, Sacramental Anointment, Chrism or Chrisom, Chrismation, Chrismatory, Last Rites, Viaticum, Last Supper, Lord' Supper, Holy Communion, The Sacrament, Holy Sacrament, Intinction, Consubstantiation, Impanation, Transubstantiation, Real Presence, Elements, Host, Wafer.

Mass - Missa, The Divine Liturgy, High Mass, Missa Solemnis, Low Mass, Missa Bassa, Rosary Mass, Rosary of the Seven Dolors of Mary, Lady Mass, Dry Mass, Missa Sicca, Liturgy of the Presanctified, Missa Praesanctificatorum, Missa Publica, Missa Privata, Missa Cantata, Missa Media, Missa Adventitia, Missa Manualis, Missa Capitularis, Missa Legata, Requiem, Requiem Mass, Dirge, Memento of the Dead.

Parts of the Mass - Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, Introit, Kyrie, Kyrie Eleison, Gloria, Collect, Epistle, Gradual, Alleluia, Tract, Gospel, Credo, Offeratory, Lavabo, Secreta, Preface, Sanctus, Tersanctus, Canon, Memento of the Living, Consecration, Elevation of the Host, Anamnesis, Memento of the Dead, Paternoster, Fraction, Agnus Dei, Pax, Communion, Post Communion, Dismissal, Blessing, Last Gospel.

Sacred and Ritualistic Articles - Relics, Sacred Relics, Monstrance, Ostensorium, Host, Eucharistia, Pyx, Ciborium, Tabernacle, Ark, Crucifix, Cross, Rood, Holy Cross, Osculatory, Pax, Agnus Dei, Icon, Bambino, Veronica, Pieta, Sacramental, Holy Water, Holy-Water Sprinkler, Aspergillum, Asperges, Asperger, Thurible, Censer, Incensory, Cruet, Urceole, Rosary, Beads, Beadroll, Chaplet, Votive Candle, Vigil Light, Incensory, Cruet, Urceole, Paschal Candle, Sanctus Bell, Sacring Bell, Sangrall, Holy Grail. Missals, Mass Book, Formulary.

Holy Days - Advent, Christmas, Candlemas, Candlemas Day, Epiphany, Three Kings' Day, Twelfth-Tide, Twelfthnight, Twelfth-Day, Septuagesima, Shrove Tuesday, Mardi Gras, Carnival, Pancake Day, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Lententide, Qnadragesima, Quadragesima Sunday, Holy Week, Passion Week, Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday or Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter, Eastertide, Easter Sunday, Easter Monday, Annunciation, Annunciation Day, Lady Day, Ascension Day or Holy Thursday, Pentecost, Whitsuntide, Whitsun, Whitweek, Whitsunday, Whit-Monday, Whit-Tuesday, White Sunday, Trinity Sunday, Corous Christi, Lemmas, Lemmas Day, Lamaestone, Michaelmas, Michaelmas Day, Michaelmastide, Halloween, Hallowmas, Allhallowmas, Allhallowtide, Allhallows, All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day, Martinmas, Ember Days.

Allegiance to Pope - Pontiff, Papa, Holy Father, Servant of the Servants of God, Cardinal, Primate, Exarch, Metropolitan, Abuna, Archbishop, Bishop, Prelate, Diocesian, Suffragan, Coadjutor, Dean, Rector, Vicar, Chaplain, Curate, Penitentiary.

False Religion - False Doctrines, Mind Idolatry, Mind Binding, Babylonian Spirits, Nimrod, Semiramus, Tammuz, Babel, Confusion, Deception, Pipytheas (religious lying), Orion (compromises the truth; gives false gifts), Python (spirit of divination), Divination, Parricide (murder of parents).

Religious Orders - Franciscan, Gray Friar, Friar Minor, Minorite, Observant, Recollect, Conventual, Capuchin, Dominican, Black Friar, Friar Preacher, Preaching Friar of Brother, Carmelite, White Friar, Augustinian, Augustinian Hermit, Austin Friar, Begging Hermit, Benedictine, Black Monk, Jesuit, Loyolite, Crutched Friar, Crossed Friar, Templar, Hospitaler, Bernardine, Bonhomme, Carthusian, Cisterian, Cluniac, Gilbertine, Lorettine, Maturine, Premonstratensian, Trappist, Brigittine, Marist, Maryknoll, Oratorian, Redemptorist.

Patron Saints - There are also patron saints over various occupations, diseases, certain groups of people (expectant mothers, falsely accused persons, etc.), countries and places. Various symbols in art represent saints (George - dragon and Francis - birds, also deer, fish, skull, stigmata, wolf, etc.) The Roman calendar has a special saint or saints for every day of the year. There are over 5,000 saints in all.

AFTER DELIVERANCE CLOSING PRAYER

1. We bind any spirits that are left in this person, separately in uncomfortable boxes, with the angels reading Scripture to them, and the Shekinah Glory of God shining on them until this person receives more DELIVERANCE. If any evil spirits wish to come out decently and in order, they may go with the angels that are waiting to take them wherever JESUS wants them to go.

2. All spirits that have come out during this DELIVERANCE must leave this person and this area, and go with the angels wherever JESUS wants them to go; they cannot return. We ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom to fill every vacancy that now exists with Godly attributes, so there is no place for a spirit to return.

3. We forbid all retaliation, backlash and vengeance from evil spirits on this person or his family, property, finances, pets or on any of the DELIVERANCE workers, their families, properties, finances, pets or those that they pray for.

4. We thank the angels for doing battle for us in the heavenlies and for taking these spirits away. We thank the Holy Spirit for wisdom to fill the vacancies and for healing any wounds left as the demons came out. We thank You, JESUS, for the use of Your Name and for Your Protective Blood. We thank You, Heavenly Father, for Your love and mercy from everlasting to everlasting.

6. We loose spirits of Truth, DELIVERANCE, Adoption, Counsel, Might, Wisdom, Understanding, and Revelation Knowledge of the Word, life, etc. upon the person DELIVERED. (I Isa.11:2)

7. We ask all of the above prayers in the Blessed Name of JESUS CHRIST, Son of the Living God. Praise Almighty God from Whom all blessings flow! Amen and Amen.


courtesy of the Moody institute, bastion of fundamentalist Baptists.

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« Reply #804 on: March 11, 2010, 12:33:45 AM »

Rafa, do you have a more specific source for the above?
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« Reply #805 on: March 11, 2010, 12:46:30 AM »

courtesy of the Moody institute, bastion of fundamentalist Baptists.

Can you more precisely cite your source?

EDIT: Oops! Just saw the above post. ^^^
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 12:47:04 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #806 on: March 11, 2010, 12:47:22 AM »

I just discovered that this was not from the Moody institute (my pardon) but from another Baptist Ministry run by a G.Moody. The website is here:


Quote
Demon buster is the website of End-Time Deliverance Ministry, located in Crystal Springs, Mississippi, in the United States

http://www.demonbuster.com/
http://www.moodymanual.demonbuster.com/cath.html
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 12:51:28 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

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« Reply #807 on: March 11, 2010, 12:49:03 AM »

In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. Cry
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

That is what I have heard from medical professionals I know (specifically a registered nurse I know who works with pregnant women on a daily basis). In the modern world, abortion is essentially never necessary to save the mother's life.

That is why the abortion debate, in America at least, focuses on the health of the mother, not the life of the mother. Yes, mental health. Depression is grounds to murder a baby. Wow.

This is, again, missing the point - we're not able to say with 100% certainty that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life.  We can say "essentially never necessary," but not "never."  So in the rare, very rare, or extremely quite very certainly supremely rare case that it is necessary, it will be handled differently than in the other cases.

We're not able to say a lot of things with 100% certainty. We should not base our morals on hypothetical cases that may or may not happen at all, and if they do, it is so rare it's statistically not worth talking about. Because when you do that, inevitably other things start being justified. "If that extreme circumstance is okay, why not this slightly less extreme circumstance? Why not this one? Or this one?"

Unfortunately our fallen nature causes us to push the envelope in search for validation. Meanwhile, the Church does not fiddle about with things, and says abortion is a sin, and leaves it at that.

And for what it's worth, I personally don't think abortion is ever justified, even if life is at stake. Ending one life to prolong another, especially in such a calculated field as medicine, strikes me as very wrong. And I don't think artificial fertilization that results in discarding embryos is right either. I say this having cousins who came from such techniques. I love them like they are my brothers, yet I despise the methods that caused them to be, and I am sad that they had other brothers and sisters who were so prematurely sent back to God.  Embarrassed

It is all a devaluing of human life. All of it. It seems that as soon as humans are able to understand—and then control—something, we lose our awe and respect for it.

[edit to add]

All of this is precisely why so many Fathers tell us not to become too familiar with worldly people. St John Chrysostom went so far as to trash most every form of entertainment known in his day (and he was not talking to monks, he was talking to regular people). Because when we become familiar with something, we sympathize with it. When that "something" is sinful, we become sympathetic. We see their point of view. We understand where they are coming from. Our own morals start to slip, and before long we have very much become "of the world".

And even worse: worldly people see Christians empathizing with, and understanding, and accepting what they do. That leads them astray, because they think we are not aiming for anything higher than they are. How will we feel on Judgment Day if our eyes are opened to all the people who we Christians led into Hell by our inaction and silent assent, if not outright misdirection?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:00:41 AM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #808 on: March 11, 2010, 01:00:40 AM »

I just discovered that this was not from the Moody institute (my pardon) but from another Baptist Ministry run by a G.Moody.

Yeah, it's not in any way related to the institution.
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« Reply #809 on: March 11, 2010, 01:01:23 AM »

In the US, only 2% of all abortions are labeled as medically necessary to save the life of the mother and some fall into this category because the mother was......d e p r e s s e d. Cry
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:fpxS6JJl4RMJ:www.mdivs.edu/Abortion_101.rtf+heart+disease+abortion+required+site:.edu&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

That is what I have heard from medical professionals I know (specifically a registered nurse I know who works with pregnant women on a daily basis). In the modern world, abortion is essentially never necessary to save the mother's life.

That is why the abortion debate, in America at least, focuses on the health of the mother, not the life of the mother. Yes, mental health. Depression is grounds to murder a baby. Wow.

This is, again, missing the point - we're not able to say with 100% certainty that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life.  We can say "essentially never necessary," but not "never."  So in the rare, very rare, or extremely quite very certainly supremely rare case that it is necessary, it will be handled differently than in the other cases.

We're not able to say a lot of things with 100% certainty. We should not base our morals on hypothetical cases that may or may not happen at all, and if they do, it is so rare it's statistically not worth talking about. Because when you do that, inevitably other things start being justified. "If that extreme circumstance is okay, why not this slightly less extreme circumstance? Why not this one? Or this one?"

Unfortunately our fallen nature causes us to push the envelope in search for validation. Meanwhile, the Church does not fiddle about with things, and says abortion is a sin, and leaves it at that.

And for what it's worth, I personally don't think abortion is ever justified, even if life is at stake. Ending one life to prolong another, especially in such a calculated field as medicine, strikes me as very wrong. And I don't think artificial fertilization that results in discarding embryos is right either. I say this having cousins who came from such techniques. I love them like they are my brothers, yet I despise the methods that caused them to be, and I am sad that they had other brothers and sisters who were so prematurely sent back to God.  Embarrassed

It is all a devaluing of human life. All of it. It seems that as soon as humans are able to understand—and then control—something, we lose our awe and respect for it.

[edit to add]

All of this is precisely why so many Fathers tell us not to become too familiar with worldly people. St John Chrysostom went so far as to trash most every form of entertainment known in his day (and he was not talking to monks, he was talking to regular people). Because when we become familiar with something, we sympathize with it. When that "something" is sinful, we become sympathetic. We see their point of view. We understand where they are coming from. Our own morals start to slip, and before long we have very much become "of the world".

And even worse: worldly people see Christians empathizing with, and understanding, and accepting what they do. That leads them astray, because they think we are not aiming for anything higher than they are. How will we feel on Judgment Day if our eyes are opened to all the people who we Christians led into Hell?


Amen! Another great post my brother! Smiley


Selam
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