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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 55758 times) Average Rating: 1
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Schultz
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« Reply #675 on: March 08, 2010, 05:07:44 PM »

According to Common Law, murder is:

1. The act of killing a person
2. The state of mind of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton

We all agree that abortion is the killing of a person. And abortion, being a medical procedure, is intentional, purposeful, and premeditated. On the part of the people involved, it may also be malicious and/or wanton.

So, logically, abortion is murder. It is not a judgment, it is an application of the Common Law definition. The point in question is not point 2, but point 1. Orthodox Christians agree that life begins at conception. The only thing that can be questioned, then, is whether abortion is intentional. Clearly it is—you cannot accidentally find yourself in an abortion clinic with a doctor hunched over you.

According to Matthew 5, Jesus equated hating one's brother with murder, too.

I can see both sides of this argument which is, perhaps, why I see this merry-go-round as a silly exercise in arrogance, pride, and our own self-delusion.  Yes, abortion is murder.  Period.  I say this as the husband of a woman who killed her unborn child half a lifetime ago and who still feels the physical, emotional and spiritual effects of it.  

But I commit murder (in the eyes of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) every day I ride the bus and think violent, angry thoughts about the loud, uncouth people who dare to board and disturb my bus ride with their vulgar discussions about their neighbors.  I commit murder every time I think about sideswiping the idiot who just cut me off in traffic.  I commit murder when I think about the wrongs people have done me in the past and how I'd "make them pay" today if I ever came across them again.

My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Part of the problem is that far too many of us view women who have had abortions as something worse when, in the end, we're all damned because we kill with our thoughts.  A woman who killed her unborn child 20 years ago, repented, and who hasn't had a violent thought since has killed once and will, God willing, have a share in His heavenly Kingdom..  Those of us who kill with our thoughts every day and don't even think about repenting because "we really didn't do anything" are going to be doing a lot bleating with the goats on the left for murder and judgment of those who God has forgiven.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #676 on: March 08, 2010, 05:16:05 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.
I too am a murderer.
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« Reply #677 on: March 08, 2010, 05:17:13 PM »

What is it that makes a human life a person?  Is it his DNA?  Bacteria have DNA, but we wouldn't call them persons.  Is this concept of personhood even something that can be verified empirically?  Or is the concept of personhood a way by which we perceive and understand human life--a philosophical construct?

New Oxford American Dictionary:

person: (1) a human being regarded as an individual

The distinct DNA of the fetus makes it a distinct individual human being, therefore it has the same inherent rights and protections that all human beings have.

Not until recent times did people endeavor to separate personhood from a human being. I see that development as flat evil, but that's just my judgment of this development.

You don't see how the application of logic found in the Common Law definition of murder is fundamentally a judgment?  You just confirmed the point I've been trying to make.

You are looking at this in an excessively emotional way.

If it's "judgment" to use words to describe things—not unreasonable words, but words in their common, defined usage—then I don't know what to say. Maybe we should return to living in caves and grunt at each other instead.
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« Reply #678 on: March 08, 2010, 05:18:32 PM »

According to Common Law, murder is:

1. The act of killing a person
2. The state of mind of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton

We all agree that abortion is the killing of a person. And abortion, being a medical procedure, is intentional, purposeful, and premeditated. On the part of the people involved, it may also be malicious and/or wanton.

So, logically, abortion is murder. It is not a judgment, it is an application of the Common Law definition. The point in question is not point 2, but point 1. Orthodox Christians agree that life begins at conception. The only thing that can be questioned, then, is whether abortion is intentional. Clearly it is—you cannot accidentally find yourself in an abortion clinic with a doctor hunched over you.

According to Matthew 5, Jesus equated hating one's brother with murder, too.

I can see both sides of this argument which is, perhaps, why I see this merry-go-round as a silly exercise in arrogance, pride, and our own self-delusion.  Yes, abortion is murder.  Period.  I say this as the husband of a woman who killed her unborn child half a lifetime ago and who still feels the physical, emotional and spiritual effects of it.  

But I commit murder (in the eyes of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) every day I ride the bus and think violent, angry thoughts about the loud, uncouth people who dare to board and disturb my bus ride with their vulgar discussions about their neighbors.  I commit murder every time I think about sideswiping the idiot who just cut me off in traffic.  I commit murder when I think about the wrongs people have done me in the past and how I'd "make them pay" today if I ever came across them again.

My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Part of the problem is that far too many of us view women who have had abortions as something worse when, in the end, we're all damned because we kill with our thoughts.  A woman who killed her unborn child 20 years ago, repented, and who hasn't had a violent thought since has killed once and will, God willing, have a share in His heavenly Kingdom..  Those of us who kill with our thoughts every day and don't even think about repenting because "we really didn't do anything" are going to be doing a lot bleating with the goats on the left for murder and judgment of those who God has forgiven.

Just my two cents.

I agree with your comments brother. The only thing I would caution you about is assuming that those of us who condemn abortion think we are superior or less in need of the mercy of Christ. In fact, one reason I feel so strongly about the issue is because I know how much of a sinner I am, and I don't want to be guilty of despising the child in the womb or their mothers.

If we hate, then we all are murderers according the definition of Our Lord. So in order to repent form hatred, the best thing to do is be pro-actively loving. The opposite of hatred is not passive non-judgment, but active love.

I hate abortion, but I do not hate those who have abortions or those who perform abortions. Just as I hate war, but I do not hate those in the military nor the politicians who send them off to war.

Anyway, I do appreciate your candid and wise comments. Thank you for sharing.

"Lord have mercy on us."

Selam
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« Reply #679 on: March 08, 2010, 05:26:47 PM »

Quote
My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Given the criteria below, I imagine that many writing here are rapists.

Others will be as you are, murderers.

Others will be paedophiles and patricides.

Some may even be all of those things, of all the things they have contemplated and been drawn to momentarily in their hearts.


According to Matthew 5, Jesus equated hating one's brother with murder, too.

I can see both sides of this argument which is, perhaps, why I see this merry-go-round as a silly exercise in arrogance, pride, and our own self-delusion.  Yes, abortion is murder.  Period.  I say this as the husband of a woman who killed her unborn child half a lifetime ago and who still feels the physical, emotional and spiritual effects of it.  

But I commit murder (in the eyes of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) every day I ride the bus and think violent, angry thoughts about the loud, uncouth people who dare to board and disturb my bus ride with their vulgar discussions about their neighbors.  I commit murder every time I think about sideswiping the idiot who just cut me off in traffic.  I commit murder when I think about the wrongs people have done me in the past and how I'd "make them pay" today if I ever came across them again.

My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Part of the problem is that far too many of us view women who have had abortions as something worse when, in the end, we're all damned because we kill with our thoughts.  A woman who killed her unborn child 20 years ago, repented, and who hasn't had a violent thought since has killed once and will, God willing, have a share in His heavenly Kingdom..  Those of us who kill with our thoughts every day and don't even think about repenting because "we really didn't do anything" are going to be doing a lot bleating with the goats on the left for murder and judgment of those who God has forgiven.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #680 on: March 08, 2010, 05:29:36 PM »

According to Common Law, murder is:

1. The act of killing a person
2. The state of mind of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton

We all agree that abortion is the killing of a person. And abortion, being a medical procedure, is intentional, purposeful, and premeditated. On the part of the people involved, it may also be malicious and/or wanton.

So, logically, abortion is murder. It is not a judgment, it is an application of the Common Law definition. The point in question is not point 2, but point 1. Orthodox Christians agree that life begins at conception. The only thing that can be questioned, then, is whether abortion is intentional. Clearly it is—you cannot accidentally find yourself in an abortion clinic with a doctor hunched over you.

According to Matthew 5, Jesus equated hating one's brother with murder, too.

I can see both sides of this argument which is, perhaps, why I see this merry-go-round as a silly exercise in arrogance, pride, and our own self-delusion.  Yes, abortion is murder.  Period.  I say this as the husband of a woman who killed her unborn child half a lifetime ago and who still feels the physical, emotional and spiritual effects of it.  

But I commit murder (in the eyes of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) every day I ride the bus and think violent, angry thoughts about the loud, uncouth people who dare to board and disturb my bus ride with their vulgar discussions about their neighbors.  I commit murder every time I think about sideswiping the idiot who just cut me off in traffic.  I commit murder when I think about the wrongs people have done me in the past and how I'd "make them pay" today if I ever came across them again.

My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Part of the problem is that far too many of us view women who have had abortions as something worse when, in the end, we're all damned because we kill with our thoughts.  A woman who killed her unborn child 20 years ago, repented, and who hasn't had a violent thought since has killed once and will, God willing, have a share in His heavenly Kingdom..  Those of us who kill with our thoughts every day and don't even think about repenting because "we really didn't do anything" are going to be doing a lot bleating with the goats on the left for murder and judgment of those who God has forgiven.

Just my two cents.

I think this is true and good to keep in mind. However, the problem is that abortion materially affects more than just one person. All sins separate us from God, but hatred does not end the life of another person. We are all quick to agree that hatred is murder, and I too am a murderer in that sense. I am not better than anyone who has had an abortion. But this discussion arose because the bishops of the Church are not effectively speaking out against a very, very real problem that is materially ending the lives of actual people.

In the case you talked about, she did repent, and that is wonderful. May God welcome her into his Kingdom. But when the Church in other places is not calling people to repentance because abortion is practically considered a normal part of everyday life, what will the fate of their souls be? We are all responsible for each other, and some of our bishops clearly have some moral confusion on this issue, and that troubles me.
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« Reply #681 on: March 08, 2010, 05:34:13 PM »

Quote
My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Given the criteria below, I imagine that many writing here are rapists.

Others will be as you are, murderers.

Others will be paedophiles and patricides.

Some may even be all of those things, of all the things they have contemplated and been drawn to momentarily in their hearts.

Actually, Father, I'm all of those things above.  Today.

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #682 on: March 08, 2010, 05:36:57 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

At last, you open a window of opportunity to bring us back on topic.  Thank you.

Do you see as part of the Orthodox phronema the reported statement of Patriarch Bartholomew that the decision to procure an abortion is a decision belonging to the couple, and that the Church acts wrongly if it seeks to influence them?  It should, as His Divine All-Holiness is reported as saying, stay out of the bedroom.

Is such a teaching harmonious with the Orthodox phronema?

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« Reply #683 on: March 08, 2010, 05:39:45 PM »

Quote
My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.

Given the criteria below, I imagine that many writing here are rapists.

Others will be as you are, murderers.

Others will be paedophiles and patricides.

Some may even be all of those things, of all the things they have contemplated and been drawn to momentarily in their hearts.

Actually, Father, I'm all of those things above.  Today.

Please pray for me.

May God preserve you.  I have met very few people amongst our flock who have such a depth of compunction that they are able to see themselves in the way that you do.   It is a gift from God.
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« Reply #684 on: March 08, 2010, 05:46:25 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

At last, you open a window of opportunity to bring us back on topic.  Thank you.

Do you see as part of the Orthodox phronema the reported statement of Patriarch Bartholomew that the decision to procure an abortion is a decision belonging to the couple, and that the Church acts wrongly if it seeks to influence them?  It should, as His Divine All-Holiness is reported as saying, stay out of the bedroom.

Is such a teaching harmonious with the Orthodox phronema?

I never heard any Orthodox Priest or Hierarch state publicly for the record that they are (figuratively speaking or otherwise) murderers, rapists, et al.  I admit to my numerous and prurient sins on this thread and others.

Isn't that why during the Divine Liturgy the celebrant(s) ask the laity to forgive them of their sins whether the celebrant happens to be: His All Holiness, yourself or any Orthodox Clergy and Laity?  Even in the Monasteries, the Priest Monks and others who can celebrate the Liturgy ask the laity for forgiveness.
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« Reply #685 on: March 08, 2010, 05:50:53 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

At last, you open a window of opportunity to bring us back on topic.  Thank you.

Do you see as part of the Orthodox phronema the reported statement of Patriarch Bartholomew that the decision to procure an abortion is a decision belonging to the couple, and that the Church acts wrongly if it seeks to influence them?  It should, as His Divine All-Holiness is reported as saying, stay out of the bedroom.

Is such a teaching harmonious with the Orthodox phronema?

I never heard any Orthodox Priest or Hierarch state publicly for the record that they are (figuratively speaking or otherwise) murderers, rapists, et al.  I admit to my numerous and prurient sins on this thread and others.

Isn't that why during the Divine Liturgy the celebrant(s) ask the laity to forgive them of their sins whether the celebrant happens to be: His All Holiness, yourself or any Orthodox Clergy and Laity?  Even in the Monasteries, the Priest Monks and others who can celebrate the Liturgy ask the laity for forgiveness.

What does this have to do with my questions to ozgeorge?
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« Reply #686 on: March 08, 2010, 05:55:16 PM »


This may be the reality in your ministry away from this forum, but all I've seen from most of those calling abortion providers murderers here on this thread is condemnation.  Maybe it's just the weakness of this text-only medium that we don't have body language and facial expressions to temper the strong words people post here.  I'm therefore of the opinion that we need to be extremely careful of the judgmental things we say and the harsh rhetoric we use on this thread.  Without nonverbal cues, the rhetoric is all there is.

You don't need the facial expressions to see that none of those of us who call abortion providers murderers have said that murderers cannot be forgiven.  While a murderer will not enter into the Kingdom of God, one who repents and is forgiven is covered by the forgiveness of Christ and is no longer a murderer.  Judging someone in the manner that Christ warns us against is not a matter of calling one who murders and murderer, but by making the judgment that because they have sinned, there is no hope for them to find Salvation.  There is always hope for them through Repentance.
Then you and I disagree on what it means to judge another person.

I can accept that.
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« Reply #687 on: March 08, 2010, 05:57:55 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.
I too am a murderer.

Me, too.  Precisely why I don't get all butt hurt over the term.
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« Reply #688 on: March 08, 2010, 05:59:50 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

At last, you open a window of opportunity to bring us back on topic.  Thank you.

Do you see as part of the Orthodox phronema the reported statement of Patriarch Bartholomew that the decision to procure an abortion is a decision belonging to the couple, and that the Church acts wrongly if it seeks to influence them?  It should, as His Divine All-Holiness is reported as saying, stay out of the bedroom.

Is such a teaching harmonious with the Orthodox phronema?

I never heard any Orthodox Priest or Hierarch state publicly for the record that they are (figuratively speaking or otherwise) murderers, rapists, et al.  I admit to my numerous and prurient sins on this thread and others.

Isn't that why during the Divine Liturgy the celebrant(s) ask the laity to forgive them of their sins whether the celebrant happens to be: His All Holiness, yourself or any Orthodox Clergy and Laity?  Even in the Monasteries, the Priest Monks and others who can celebrate the Liturgy ask the laity for forgiveness.

What does this have to do with my questions to ozgeorge?

Plenty.  First, I should not have included Laity because the question is only for Clergy.  If that was the source of your confusion, I apologize.

One poster publicly commented that he is a "figurative" murderer.  Another poster commends him for practicing Orthodox Phromena not seen in 10 pages of this thread.  You asked the question whether or not the EP's silence on abortion is encouraging people to sin and yet, the EP publicly asks the other celebrants and laity to forgive Him of his sins before distributing Communion at every Divine Liturgy.  Any corrupt Priests and Hierarchs also ask for the forgiveness of the laity before distributing Communion.

So the question is a fair one.   Smiley
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« Reply #689 on: March 08, 2010, 06:11:25 PM »

^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

At last, you open a window of opportunity to bring us back on topic.  Thank you.

Do you see as part of the Orthodox phronema the reported statement of Patriarch Bartholomew that the decision to procure an abortion is a decision belonging to the couple, and that the Church acts wrongly if it seeks to influence them?  It should, as His Divine All-Holiness is reported as saying, stay out of the bedroom.

Is such a teaching harmonious with the Orthodox phronema?

I never heard any Orthodox Priest or Hierarch state publicly for the record that they are (figuratively speaking or otherwise) murderers, rapists, et al.  I admit to my numerous and prurient sins on this thread and others.

Isn't that why during the Divine Liturgy the celebrant(s) ask the laity to forgive them of their sins whether the celebrant happens to be: His All Holiness, yourself or any Orthodox Clergy and Laity?  Even in the Monasteries, the Priest Monks and others who can celebrate the Liturgy ask the laity for forgiveness.

What does this have to do with my questions to ozgeorge?

Plenty.  First, I should not have included Laity because the question is only for Clergy.  If that was the source of your confusion, I apologize.

One poster publicly commented that he is a "figurative" murderer.  Another poster commends him for practicing Orthodox Phromena not seen in 10 pages of this thread.  You asked the question whether or not the EP's silence on abortion is encouraging people to sin and yet, the EP publicly asks the other celebrants and laity to forgive Him of his sins before distributing Communion at every Divine Liturgy.  Any corrupt Priests and Hierarchs also ask for the forgiveness of the laity before distributing Communion.

So the question is a fair one.   Smiley

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

If he was reported truly then I don't think he can be forgiven, not while he allows his sinful words to stand and cause confusion among the faithful, drawing people into grave sin. He needs to correct them and then to seek forgiveness.
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« Reply #690 on: March 08, 2010, 06:13:33 PM »

But when the Church in other places is not calling people to repentance because abortion is practically considered a normal part of everyday life, what will the fate of their souls be? We are all responsible for each other, and some of our bishops clearly have some moral confusion on this issue, and that troubles me.

A very wealthy Archon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate placed his name on medical facilities, some of which perform stem cell research.

John G. Rangos Sr., Exarchos - Page 140 of the 2010 GOA Yearbook

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« Reply #691 on: March 08, 2010, 06:18:38 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.

If he was reported truly then I don't think he can be forgiven, not while he allows his sinful words to stand and cause confusion among the faithful, drawing people into grave sin. He needs to correct them and then to seek forgiveness.

Maybe not.  His All Holiness is no more perfect than you or I are.   I would like His All Holiness to apologize for unleashing the Elder Ephraim Monasteries on a vulnerable and uncathecatized flock.  That won't happen in my lifetime; however, at least I've had the opportunity to see His All Holiness on 2 occasions even though I'm not a wealthy man who puts his name on institutions that perform stem cell research.  angel
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« Reply #692 on: March 08, 2010, 06:23:53 PM »

But when the Church in other places is not calling people to repentance because abortion is practically considered a normal part of everyday life, what will the fate of their souls be? We are all responsible for each other, and some of our bishops clearly have some moral confusion on this issue, and that troubles me.

A very wealthy Archon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate placed his name on medical facilities, some of which perform stem cell research.

John G. Rangos Sr., Exarchos - Page 140 of the 2010 GOA Yearbook



I'd be interested in following a discussion on this topic.

Here is an existing thread which could be used to pursue it.

"Adult Stem-Cell Success"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3777.msg50088/topicseen.html#msg50088
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« Reply #693 on: March 08, 2010, 06:25:42 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.
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« Reply #694 on: March 08, 2010, 06:39:30 PM »

The distinct DNA of the fetus makes it a distinct individual human being, therefore it has the same inherent rights and protections that all human beings have.

How about the distinct DNA of malignantly transformed cell lines (HeLA, for one, has been propagated in laboratories for >60 yers, and there are thousands of other)? These cells contain the full complement of distinct human beings. HeLa has all the unique genes of a woman called HElen LAmbert (hence the name of the line). Must we believe these lines have the same inherent rights and protections that all human beings have?

(Please note that I am making this argument exclusively to show that the claims such as, "it has all the genes of a human being, hence it is a human being" are, IMHO, absurd. I AM NOT JUSTIFYING ABORTION - but I do, very seriously, believe that it is impossible to "prove" scientifically, when does the life of a human being begin. We BELIEVE, as Orthodox Christians, that the life of a human being begins at conception, but no one can "prove" that, just like no one has so far even managed to define life.)
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« Reply #695 on: March 08, 2010, 07:10:03 PM »


My name is Michael and I'm a murderer.


^Thank you Schultz for the only post which shows any Orthodox Phronema I can see in last 10 pages or so of this  God-forsaken thread.

I too am a murderer.

Truly you have surpassed all.   While I speak of latter day monks living on tea and toast for the Fast - what a paltry thing that is!   You have achieved the great ascesis of seeing yourself as the greatest of sinners and guilty of all sins, identifying with murderers and rapists and paedophiles, etc.  I acknowledge your spiritual exaltedness.  May I be worthy to clean your gumboots and open your tinnies.
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« Reply #696 on: March 08, 2010, 07:13:20 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?
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« Reply #697 on: March 08, 2010, 07:19:05 PM »

I'd be interested in following a discussion on this topic.

Here is an existing thread which could be used to pursue it.

"Adult Stem-Cell Success"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3777.msg50088/topicseen.html#msg50088

A lot of elderly men and women have Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's.  Stem Cell research has showed promising results and requires the destruction of life.  If His All Holiness speaks out against abortion, He also speaks out against stem cell research and offends the man whose name is on buildings where stem cell research is performed.

C'est la vie.  You don't have to like it.  If I apostatize because my Patriarch won't speak out against abortion, what will that accomplish for me?  You don't care anyway, being in New Zealand.   Wink
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« Reply #698 on: March 08, 2010, 07:24:42 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?
So lying about whether or not someone's hair looks good is on the same level as genocide? Weird.  Huh
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« Reply #699 on: March 08, 2010, 08:06:38 PM »

I'd be interested in following a discussion on this topic.

Here is an existing thread which could be used to pursue it.

"Adult Stem-Cell Success"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3777.msg50088/topicseen.html#msg50088

A lot of elderly men and women have Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's.  Stem Cell research has showed promising results and requires the destruction of life.  If His All Holiness speaks out against abortion, He also speaks out against stem cell research and offends the man whose name is on buildings where stem cell research is performed.
I think you're being too general here by not restricting your comments to embryonic stem cell research.  Stem cell research, if not conducted on specimens extracted from human embryos, does not require the destruction of human life, AFAIK.
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« Reply #700 on: March 08, 2010, 08:32:07 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?

I don't  really know.  I think the disconnect may originate recently with Saint Vladimir's seminary, perhaps with Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff.   I hope that we can distinguish between stealing a pencil or a plum and having an abortion or being a mass murderer. 
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« Reply #701 on: March 08, 2010, 08:35:34 PM »

I'd be interested in following a discussion on this topic.

Here is an existing thread which could be used to pursue it.

"Adult Stem-Cell Success"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3777.msg50088/topicseen.html#msg50088

A lot of elderly men and women have Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's.  Stem Cell research has showed promising results and requires the destruction of life.  If His All Holiness speaks out against abortion, He also speaks out against stem cell research and offends the man whose name is on buildings where stem cell research is performed.

C'est la vie.  You don't have to like it.  If I apostatize because my Patriarch won't speak out against abortion, what will that accomplish for me?  You don't care anyway, being in New Zealand.   Wink

Hve a look at the internet homepage of the Greek Metropolia of New Zealand. Messages from the Ecumenical Patriacrh and the local Metropolitan.  Claims are made for the spiritual care of the Russians, Serbs, Romanians.   Do you think that we would be excluded from the loving care of the EP?  No!   
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« Reply #702 on: March 08, 2010, 09:13:13 PM »

I'd be interested in following a discussion on this topic.

Here is an existing thread which could be used to pursue it.

"Adult Stem-Cell Success"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3777.msg50088/topicseen.html#msg50088

A lot of elderly men and women have Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's.  Stem Cell research has showed promising results and requires the destruction of life.  If His All Holiness speaks out against abortion, He also speaks out against stem cell research and offends the man whose name is on buildings where stem cell research is performed.
I think you're being too general here by not restricting your comments to embryonic stem cell research.  Stem cell research, if not conducted on specimens extracted from human embryos, does not require the destruction of human life, AFAIK.

You're correct.  By stem-cell research, I intended to say embryonic stem-cell research which requires the destruction of human life.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #703 on: March 08, 2010, 09:15:56 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?
So lying about whether or not someone's hair looks good is on the same level as genocide? Weird.  Huh

I don't see that as weird.  The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a dispenser of punishment.
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« Reply #704 on: March 08, 2010, 09:19:05 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?

I don't  really know.  I think the disconnect may originate recently with Saint Vladimir's seminary, perhaps with Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff.   I hope that we can distinguish between stealing a pencil or a plum and having an abortion or being a mass murderer. 

The sins are all the same.  Just because modern society has chosen to interpret the consequences differently doesn't mean that the hurt and damage to the soul remains.  An unrepentant mass murderer is no different from an unrepentant person involved with an abortion and no different from an unrepentant person stealing a pencil or a plum.
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« Reply #705 on: March 08, 2010, 09:26:41 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?

I don't  really know.  I think the disconnect may originate recently with Saint Vladimir's seminary, perhaps with Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff.   I hope that we can distinguish between stealing a pencil or a plum and having an abortion or being a mass murderer. 

The sins are all the same.  Just because modern society has chosen to interpret the consequences differently doesn't mean that the hurt and damage to the soul remains.  An unrepentant mass murderer is no different from an unrepentant person involved with an abortion and no different from an unrepentant person stealing a pencil or a plum.

I think that this unusual idea originates with the OCA in the persons of Fr Schmemann and Meyendorff.  I say unusual because to me it is unusual that an unrepentant child who stole a plum will be in hell with the unrepentant murderer.

Maybe there is a thread on this already?
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« Reply #706 on: March 08, 2010, 09:39:14 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?

I don't  really know.  I think the disconnect may originate recently with Saint Vladimir's seminary, perhaps with Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff.   I hope that we can distinguish between stealing a pencil or a plum and having an abortion or being a mass murderer. 

The sins are all the same.  Just because modern society has chosen to interpret the consequences differently doesn't mean that the hurt and damage to the soul remains.  An unrepentant mass murderer is no different from an unrepentant person involved with an abortion and no different from an unrepentant person stealing a pencil or a plum.

I think that this unusual idea originates with the OCA in the persons of Fr Schmemann and Meyendorff.  I say unusual because to me it is unusual that an unrepentant child who stole a plum will be in hell with the unrepentant murderer.

Maybe there is a thread on this already?
I'm pretty sure there is, though I don't know where it is and don't have the time right now to look for it.
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« Reply #707 on: March 08, 2010, 10:24:20 PM »

The distinct DNA of the fetus makes it a distinct individual human being, therefore it has the same inherent rights and protections that all human beings have.

How about the distinct DNA of malignantly transformed cell lines (HeLA, for one, has been propagated in laboratories for >60 yers, and there are thousands of other)? These cells contain the full complement of distinct human beings. HeLa has all the unique genes of a woman called HElen LAmbert (hence the name of the line). Must we believe these lines have the same inherent rights and protections that all human beings have?

(Please note that I am making this argument exclusively to show that the claims such as, "it has all the genes of a human being, hence it is a human being" are, IMHO, absurd. I AM NOT JUSTIFYING ABORTION - but I do, very seriously, believe that it is impossible to "prove" scientifically, when does the life of a human being begin. We BELIEVE, as Orthodox Christians, that the life of a human being begins at conception, but no one can "prove" that, just like no one has so far even managed to define life.)


I don't think we should be monkeying around with genetics to such a degree that these kinds of questions even need to be asked.

I don't know about this particular situation so I'll have to do some research. It makes me uneasy though.
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« Reply #708 on: March 08, 2010, 10:34:26 PM »

OK.  Are you saying that Patriarch Bartholomew has sinned if as reported he has advocated for the right of couples to decide for abortion?  And that every time he serves Litury and turns towards the people prior to Commmunion and says "Forgive me brethren" he is, inter alia, asking forgiveness for those words on abortion?

Fwiw, His All Holiness could have also yelled at His Secretary, smacked a Deacon on the head with His Pateritsa or cussed out a Janitor.  All of these are sins in addition to whatever you just alluded to in the above.


I find it bizarre to bring in such things as the Patriarch yelling at his secretary as if it were on the same level as the killing of unborn human beings.

So you are saying that some sins are more severe than others?  I was taught that all sin was the same.  Where's the disconnect?
So lying about whether or not someone's hair looks good is on the same level as genocide? Weird.  Huh

I don't see that as weird.  The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a dispenser of punishment.

I think we have established in this thread that part of the Church's role is to give people penance. St Basil's canons tell us that a woman who has an abortion is to given 10 years' penance (reduced from the rest of their life).

All sins separate us from God, so they are equal in that sense. One inch or one mile is still separation. However, not every sin separates us from God by the same amount. Killing people estranges us from God far more than yelling at someone.
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« Reply #709 on: March 09, 2010, 01:26:39 AM »

[Yes. The difference is that you cannot know for sure where and when random murders are occurring, so there is little you can do about it. But if you know where an abortion clinic is, or if you know someone who is contemplating an abortion or is an abortionist, then you can certainly try to deter them from their murderous intentions.] ... [I fully admit that I don't do nearly enough. But I don't pretend to exculpate myself from my responsibility by saying "I don't want to be judgmental."] ... [When it becomes legal to murder you, I'll make sure that nobody passes judgment on the unjust action that takes your life. After all, that's a grey area.] ... [And that sums up your problem pretty well. You just don't care about the innocent victims of abortion.]... [Now you attack my "belief system." Since I am Orthodox, I don't subscribe to systematic theology. I abide by the teachings of the Church, which is why I promote the apostolic concern for the unborn children in the womb.] ... [And apparrently, in your view, the unborn are unworthy swine as well. No need to keep them; violently discard them at the whim of choice.]


Interesting that you're the only one to say that I view the unborn as "unworthy swine."  Maybe that was a knee jerk reaction to my alleged attack of your faith.  After all, if you came from a faith background where you were automatically saved and the Ethiopian Church teaches the same thing about automatic salvation while my GOA Church does not teach the same thing regarding automatic salvation, then there is a disconnect.

If you read this thread, I made references to a wealthy man who put his name on buildings where embryonic stem cell research is performed and the financial support provided by this individual to the EP provides a plausible explanation on why the EP has remained silent on abortion.  After all, if thousands of Orthodox Christians in the Diaspora suffer from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease, an embryonic stem cell could result in breakthrough cures that would cause grandmothers to remember their grandchildren and people to stop shaking and walk out of their wheelchairs ("miracles" akin to what Christ performed in the Bible).  As a believer in Christ, I do not share in these triumphal sentiments as I remain against abortion, against embryonic stem-cell research and against the destruction of life.  Unlike "pro-life" advocates, I do not believe nor have I ever believed in doing to a woman entering or exiting an abortion clinic what was done to Christ as he was being crucified.  Such humiliation of women; such inhumane treatment, has no place anywhere, especially the Orthodox Church.  The woman has sinned by committing an abortion; the woman suffers the consequences for her actions; the Church is there to comfort her in her suffering and not cast judgment on her nor humiliate her nor victimize her further.

When I was in suffering, the littlest thing provided by my Church was the biggest assistance that I ever received.  Freely I have received and Freely I give.
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« Reply #710 on: March 09, 2010, 02:03:13 AM »

If you read this thread, I made references to a wealthy man who put his name on buildings where embryonic stem cell research is performed and the financial support provided by this individual to the EP provides a plausible explanation on why the EP has remained silent on abortion.
I must say that I find this speculation on your part rather troubling.  Care to back it up?  Otherwise, I might recommend that you rescind this claim, since it strikes me as baseless rumor mongering.
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« Reply #711 on: March 09, 2010, 02:14:20 AM »

[Yes. The difference is that you cannot know for sure where and when random murders are occurring, so there is little you can do about it. But if you know where an abortion clinic is, or if you know someone who is contemplating an abortion or is an abortionist, then you can certainly try to deter them from their murderous intentions.] ... [I fully admit that I don't do nearly enough. But I don't pretend to exculpate myself from my responsibility by saying "I don't want to be judgmental."] ... [When it becomes legal to murder you, I'll make sure that nobody passes judgment on the unjust action that takes your life. After all, that's a grey area.] ... [And that sums up your problem pretty well. You just don't care about the innocent victims of abortion.]... [Now you attack my "belief system." Since I am Orthodox, I don't subscribe to systematic theology. I abide by the teachings of the Church, which is why I promote the apostolic concern for the unborn children in the womb.] ... [And apparrently, in your view, the unborn are unworthy swine as well. No need to keep them; violently discard them at the whim of choice.]


Interesting that you're the only one to say that I view the unborn as "unworthy swine."  Maybe that was a knee jerk reaction to my alleged attack of your faith.  After all, if you came from a faith background where you were automatically saved and the Ethiopian Church teaches the same thing about automatic salvation while my GOA Church does not teach the same thing regarding automatic salvation, then there is a disconnect.

The EOTC is one of the oldest Orthodox Churches (perhaps THE oldest Orthodox Church in the world. So please do not cast aspersion upon my church by equating its teachings with evangelicalism.

  Unlike "pro-life" advocates, I do not believe nor have I ever believed in doing to a woman entering or exiting an abortion clinic what was done to Christ as he was being crucified.  Such humiliation of women; such inhumane treatment, has no place anywhere, especially the Orthodox Church.  The woman has sinned by committing an abortion; the woman suffers the consequences for her actions; the Church is there to comfort her in her suffering and not cast judgment on her nor humiliate her nor victimize her further.

When I was in suffering, the littlest thing provided by my Church was the biggest assistance that I ever received.  Freely I have received and Freely I give.

First, you must not have read some of my other posts. I have repeatedly explained that Pro-Life activism does not involve humiliating or shaming women. A few ostensible Pro-Life activists may be guilty of such behavior, but I can assure they are in the minority. Perhaps you shouldn't form your perception of reality from Hollywood propaganda or the mainstream media. Another thing: the Church does not exist to shame sinners nor comfort evildoers. Our God is a consuming fire, and His love warms the hearts of those who love Him, and it burns those who hate Him.

Selam
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« Reply #712 on: March 09, 2010, 02:36:29 AM »

The EOTC is one of the oldest Orthodox Churches (perhaps THE oldest Orthodox Church in the world. So please do not cast aspersion upon my church by equating its teachings with evangelicalism.

No, the EOTC and Evangelicalism are two different entities.  Whether or not the EOTC shares any beliefs with Evangelicalism is something I don't know.  My hunch is that I don't think so; however, that is for a different thread.

First, you must not have read some of my other posts.

I did see your reference to Nathan rebuking David in one of them.  Quoting in two colors is quite a challenge.   Smiley

I have repeatedly explained that Pro-Life activism does not involve humiliating or shaming women. A few ostensible Pro-Life activists may be guilty of such behavior, but I can assure they are in the minority.

Perhaps they should be zero.  That element judges women who have abortions; who judges them?  The Westboro Baptist Church has pronounced judgment on America; who judges them?

Perhaps you shouldn't form your perception of reality from Hollywood propaganda or the mainstream media.

You've said that to me before.  What makes you think that I'm brainwashed by Hollywood and the mainstream media?   Huh

Another thing: the Church does not exist to shame sinners nor comfort evildoers. Our God is a consuming fire, and His love warms the hearts of those who love Him, and it burns those who hate Him. 

No disagreement on the "love" part.  Why didn't a fireball consume those who crucified Jesus?   Huh
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« Reply #713 on: March 09, 2010, 02:44:39 AM »

If you read this thread, I made references to a wealthy man who put his name on buildings where embryonic stem cell research is performed and the financial support provided by this individual to the EP provides a plausible explanation on why the EP has remained silent on abortion.
I must say that I find this speculation on your part rather troubling.  Care to back it up?  Otherwise, I might recommend that you rescind this claim, since it strikes me as baseless rumor mongering.

There is no intent to foster rumor mongering ... Embryonic stem cell research has potential to cure Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease and this wealthy Archon of the Ecumenical Patriarch has his name on buildings in Pittsburgh and Baltimore where medical research is practiced.  Yes, such a statement is coincidence and I feel that can be used to establish why the EP has remained silent on abortion just has no one challenged my claim that the EP's predecessor remained silent in 1821 when Greek Independence was proclaimed. 

BTW, at my Church, there are occasional lectures on the latest research in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease which have impacted numerous families in my Community and throughout the Orthodox domain.
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« Reply #714 on: March 09, 2010, 02:54:14 AM »

I oppose the death penalty as well; however, you won't see me protesting an execution (at least not in my state which hasn't executed anyone since 12/2005).  Those executed by the government were executed as a consequence of a personal choice or a series of personal choices which violated civil laws which carry the penalty of death.

Not all of them. Innocent people are executed in this country.

You are correct.  Those who sent the innocent man to die are equally responsible for his death; however, for all we know, not many of them repent for their mistakes.

You conveniently forgot about Nathan the Prophet, who judged David's actions and severely rebuked him. It was this firm rebuke that spurred David to repentance. But I guess Nathan would be called self righteous and judgmental by many people today.

The Prophet Nathan was inspired by God to rebuke King David for his sins.  We don't have that luxury.

The act of abortion is self-centered and self-serving, not self-loving. Abortion is an act contrary to peace, tolerance, and human rights. It is violent, judgmental (condemning an innocent child to an unjust death), and inhumane. So, if you are concerned about people not being judgmental, then I would expect you to be vocally outspoken against those who condemn innocent children to violent and unjust deaths.

Are you transferring your activism onto me?

BTW, I'm not sure what your point is about Bible verses that don't have commentary from the OSB. Do you think these verses are any less authoritative? That's not an Orthodox view of Scripture.[/color]

Everything needs explanation if we are not to interpret things literally.   Smiley
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« Reply #715 on: March 09, 2010, 02:58:29 AM »


 That element judges women who have abortions; who judges them?  




I feel that this repetitious emphasis on judgementalism is an emotional ploy.   It is making out that the Orthodox Church Fathers and our modern Orthodox are involved in judgment and condemnation of sinners.   Nobody with a nodding acquaintance with the Orthodox would think that.   The compassion of Orthodox for sinners is immense, all-embracing.

But the moral basis remains unshakeable - from the time of the Didache in approximately 140 AD, through the Holy Fathers of the Church, through the canons of the Church formulated at Ecumenical Councils.   Many of these unarguable sources which go to form the Orthodox phronema have been quoted in this thread already.

Just as our moral teaching against the practice of homosexuality does not coerce us into hating homosexuals, neither does our teaching on abortion coerce us into hating those women and their husbands who resort to it.    For priests in particular there is a lot of work in our modern world reconciling to the Church those who have had an abortion.   This is conducted in an atmosphere of love and compassion.  The purpose is to shed tears of life-creating sorrow for what has taken place, to accept the dead child into the living family, to unblock the roadblock the abortion has caused in the couple's religious life, to restore them to the sacramental life of the Church with Confession and the Body and Blood of Christ.

As you can see, judgementalism would be disastrous for this process of reconciliation.  

« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 03:01:02 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #716 on: March 09, 2010, 03:07:20 AM »

That element judges women who have abortions; who judges them?  

I feel that this repetitious emphasis on judgementalism is an emotional ploy.  

No.  The emphasis on judgementalism is used to silence those who speak out against the behavior even if they share the same view of the behavior.  The EP is silent on abortion because if He speaks out against abortion, elements from all directions will use these words to scandalize Him.  No one has scandalized the EP since global warming data was questioned; however, it would take one person to question the EP's stance on the Environment and create scandal.

Free speech plus Roe v. Wade have allowed this "fringe" element to harass women coming and going into abortion clinics under the guises of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion.

It is making out that the Orthodox Church Fathers and our modern Orthodox are involved in judgment and condemnation of sinners.   Nobody with a nodding acquaintance with the Orthodox would think that.   The compassion of Orthodox for sinners is immense, all-embracing.

Tell that to the scandalizers.

But the moral basis remains unshakeable - from the time of the Didache in approximately 140 AD, through the Holy Fathers of the Church, through the canons of the Church formulated at Ecumenical Councils.   Many of these unarguable sources which go to form the Orthodox phronema have been quoted in this thread already.

Just as our moral teaching against the practice of homosexuality does not coerce us into hating homosexuals, neither does our teaching on abortion coerce us into hating those women and their husbands who resort to it.    For priests in particular there is a lot of work in our modern world reconciling to the Church those who have had an abortion.   This is conducted in an atmosphere of love and compassion.  The purpose is to shed tears of life-creating sorrow for what has taken place, to accept the dead child into the living family, to unblock the roadblock the abortion has caused in the couple's religious life, to restore them to the sacramental life of the Church with Confession and the Body and Blood of Christ.

As you can see, judgementalism would be disastrous for this process of reconciliation.  

I am in agreement.   Smiley
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« Reply #717 on: March 09, 2010, 03:17:37 AM »

Did I hear correctly that the EP is indirectly via his archon funding stem cell research which depends upon aborted babies?  Shocked
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« Reply #718 on: March 09, 2010, 03:22:00 AM »

Did I hear correctly that the EP is indirectly via his archon funding stem cell research which depends upon aborted babies?  Shocked

Number 1.  No.  The EP doesn't fund embryonic stem cell research.

Number 2.  I publicly rescind any direct or implied association between the buildings named for John Rangos Sr. and the EP because of the above rumor.   Smiley

Number 3.  I apologize for any confusion which was caused.   Smiley
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« Reply #719 on: March 09, 2010, 03:33:35 AM »

My comments in red:


Free speech plus Roe v. Wade have allowed this "fringe" element to harass women coming and going into abortion clinics under the guises of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion.

You preach incessantly about how we are supposed to be non-judgmental, and yet you continue to stereotype Pro-Life activists in a very judgmental manner.

It is making out that the Orthodox Church Fathers and our modern Orthodox are involved in judgment and condemnation of sinners.   Nobody with a nodding acquaintance with the Orthodox would think that.   The compassion of Orthodox for sinners is immense, all-embracing.

Tell that to the scandalizers.[/color]

Again: You preach incessantly about how we are supposed to be non-judgmental, and yet you continue to stereotype Pro-Life activists in a very judgmental manner.

Selam
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 03:34:24 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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