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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 51159 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #630 on: March 08, 2010, 04:56:02 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188

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« Reply #631 on: March 08, 2010, 05:01:56 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?
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« Reply #632 on: March 08, 2010, 05:12:44 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question?  Are you saying that Saint Basil is free to state that both women who administer abortion-inducing substances and women who take these substances are murderers but the rest of the world cannot say that?

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« Reply #633 on: March 08, 2010, 05:14:31 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question? 
Now why doesn't that surprise me?
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« Reply #634 on: March 08, 2010, 05:17:00 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question? 
Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Have you experienced problems with communication in the past?
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« Reply #635 on: March 08, 2010, 05:31:32 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question? 
Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Have you experienced problems with communication in the past?
Must be because I'm Pontian. Perhaps you are correct when you suggest that certain races are better than others.
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« Reply #636 on: March 08, 2010, 05:31:58 AM »


 You expressed a misunderstanding of a post I submitted earlier to this thread, a post that is itself a discussion of the topic of abortion.  So this isn't just about me.

No, I see that Punch is also having problems with understanding you.  The obfuscation of which he speaks may not be intentional but simply a by-product of your love of superfine argumentation but it can make effective communciation with you difficult.

Punch:  "If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in your hyperbolic rhetoric."
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« Reply #637 on: March 08, 2010, 05:34:32 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question? 
Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Have you experienced problems with communication in the past?
Must be because I'm Pontian. Perhaps you are correct when you suggest that certain races are better than others.

Did I suggest that?   Something like the Aryan race is better then the Jewish?  I really don't remember suggesting anything of the sort.  What are you thinking of?
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« Reply #638 on: March 08, 2010, 05:47:01 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question?
Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Have you experienced problems with communication in the past?
Must be because I'm Pontian. Perhaps you are correct when you suggest that certain races are better than others.

Did I suggest that?   Something like the Aryan race is better then the Jewish?  I really don't remember suggesting anything of the sort.  What are you thinking of?
Go to "Search" and enter "Greek" or "Greece" and enter "Irish Hermit" in the user box, and just check out how many hits you get. Sadly, when one reads your posts that come up in the search, it kind of suggests you don't particularly like Greeks or Greece.  Thats fine. Just saying. Personally, I dislike Psuedo-Irish-Serbo-Russians.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:50:45 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #639 on: March 08, 2010, 06:08:55 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:
Read what you just quoted from Peter again Irish Hermit. Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

Not sure that I see the meaning or your question?
Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Have you experienced problems with communication in the past?
Must be because I'm Pontian. Perhaps you are correct when you suggest that certain races are better than others.

Did I suggest that?   Something like the Aryan race is better then the Jewish?  I really don't remember suggesting anything of the sort.  What are you thinking of?
Go to "Search" and enter "Greek" or "Greece" and enter "Irish Hermit" in the user box, and just check out how many hits you get. Sadly, when one reads your posts that come up in the search, it kind of suggests you don't particularly like Greeks or Greece.  Thats fine. Just saying. Personally, I dislike Psuedo-Irish-Serbo-Russians.

Quite strange to extrapolate from a serious and responsible concern over the reported pro-choice attitude of the Ec. Patriarch (do you see him as a Pseudo-Turk?) a general dislike for the Greek people.

ozgeorge:  "Psuedo [sic]-Irish-Serbo-Russians"

How strange an acusation!

1.  I am 100% Celt by race.  By some extaordinary and unplanned series of marriages in both Australia and New Zealand my immediate ancestors in the colonies have married only Irish; not an Englishman in the tree!

2.  I spent 30 years in the Serbian Orthodox Church.

3.  I have spent the last 15 years in the Russian Church (Abroad.)

Would you point out the "pseudo" in any of that?

Hey, you could include "Pseudo-Greek" in there since I was received in an Athonite monastery under the EP and then spent 3 months in an EP monastery.  laugh
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 06:11:12 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #640 on: March 08, 2010, 06:14:09 AM »

I was received in an Athonite monastery under the EP and then spent 3 months in an EP monastery.  laugh
Any Roman Catholic can do that. Its called tourism.
Anyway, what made you think I meant you?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 06:17:26 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #641 on: March 08, 2010, 06:24:10 AM »

I was received in an Athonite monastery under the EP and then spent 3 months in an EP monastery.  laugh
Any Roman Catholic can do that. Its called tourism.

Why bother to comment on a relatively unimportant sentence and ignore the substance of the message? 

Do you still call me a "Psuedo [sic]-Irish-Serbo-Russian"?

Your personal dislike of me is distracting us from the topic of the Patriarch and abortion.  As I asked Peter, I would like to ask you if you know of any artlcles rebutting what is said in articles by senior clergy and religious commentators, viz., that the Ecumenical Patriarch leaves the decision on abortion in the hands of couples and believes the Church should not be involved ("in the bedroom" as he puts it.)
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« Reply #642 on: March 08, 2010, 06:30:03 AM »


Anyway, what made you think I meant you?

Read message 638.  You wrote it.
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« Reply #643 on: March 08, 2010, 06:32:37 AM »

Your personal dislike of me is distracting us from the topic of the Patriarch and abortion.
If you read the title of the thread, the topic is actually "Orthodoxy and Abortion", not "the Patriarch and Abortion" as you seem to think it is. You are the one obsessed with the Oecumenical Patriarch and are derailing this thread to once again disparage the persecuted Church of Constantinople. And that's why I dislike you.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 06:34:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #644 on: March 08, 2010, 07:09:23 AM »

Your personal dislike of me is distracting us from the topic of the Patriarch and abortion.
If you read the title of the thread, the topic is actually "Orthodoxy and Abortion", not "the Patriarch and Abortion" as you seem to think it is.

This thread has been running for 6 years!!  Since 2004!!  Its original title is indeed Orthodoxy and Abortion.

However, PeterThe Aleut chose to bring this thread back to life a few days ago.  He transfered here from another current thread a discussion on The Patriarch and Abortion.

Quote
You are the one obsessed with the Oecumenical Patriarch and are derailing this thread to once again disparage the persecuted Church of Constantinople.

I am not derailing this thread.  PeterThe Aleut reinvigorated this thread specifically so that he could transfer from another thread the topic of The Patriarch and Abortion.  I guess you did not notice the sequence of events but the current incarnation of this thread is dedicated to The Patriarch and Abortion.

PeterTheAleut's announcement that he is transferring the topic of The Patriarch and Abortion from "VATICAN: the new "U" word?" is in this message (#185)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19903.msg413857.html#msg413857
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 07:21:22 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #645 on: March 08, 2010, 08:09:38 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?
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« Reply #646 on: March 08, 2010, 08:20:10 AM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?

The point is that Saint Basil teaches us that "Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderers." 

Saint Basil is quite certain about this.  He repeats it in his letters and canons more than once.  I think we have already quoted one such canon.  Here is another, Canon VIII:

"But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees"..

Saint John Chrysostom also speaks of murderers....

"—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born."
Homilies on Romans 24

 
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« Reply #647 on: March 08, 2010, 08:36:08 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

So, for you, Orthodoxy is not factual, but just one system of values among many in the marketplace of ideas, to be arbitrated, in this case, by secular legal bodies.
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« Reply #648 on: March 08, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »

Your personal dislike of me is distracting us from the topic of the Patriarch and abortion.
If you read the title of the thread, the topic is actually "Orthodoxy and Abortion", not "the Patriarch and Abortion" as you seem to think it is. You are the one obsessed with the Oecumenical Patriarch and are derailing this thread to once again disparage the persecuted Church of Constantinople. And that's why I dislike you.

All I see is you derailing the thread to pursue your admitted personal vendetta. It would hardly be the first thread you derailed with personal attacks.
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« Reply #649 on: March 08, 2010, 09:09:46 AM »

Your personal dislike of me is distracting us from the topic of the Patriarch and abortion.
If you read the title of the thread, the topic is actually "Orthodoxy and Abortion", not "the Patriarch and Abortion"

So you are saying that the HDAH isn't Orthodox?


Quote
as you seem to think it is. You are the one obsessed with the Oecumenical Patriarch and are derailing this thread to once again disparage the persecuted Church of Constantinople.

As pointed out, the Patriarch and Abortion is how this thread got revived, and merged.

I am not sure if pointing out moral confusion caused by statements of the currect EP count  as disparagement of Constantinople, persecuted or not.

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And that's why I dislike you.

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« Reply #650 on: March 08, 2010, 10:54:22 AM »

Or am I talking to St. Basil the Great?

What does this line of thinking even mean? "Are you St John Chrysostom? Are you St Basil? Are you St Paul? Are you St So-and-so?" Since they are, in fact, in heaven, I would have to guess they acquired God's will, and are probably right on this issue. If they are right, then we should adopt their beliefs as our own. So really, yes, we should be St John Chrysostom, St Basil, St Paul, etc.

Can anyone find quotes from deified people that are as lackadaisical on abortion as the Ecumenical Patriarch?
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« Reply #651 on: March 08, 2010, 11:23:23 AM »

If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.

If people don't want to be Christians, they don't have to be. No one is forcing them.

What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

How can someone possibly live a holy and pure life if the Church doesn't teach them in no uncertain terms what is right and wrong? What good is the Church doing if she lies to people, saying their soiled wedding garments are good enough? To enter heaven, people have to be utterly transformed and deified. What good, then, does it do people when the Church lowers her standards?

I know you are speaking from a place of compassion, but how compassionate is it in the eternal sense? It's morphine for a terminal patient, it's not the medicine they need.

A woman who has an abortion can fear God and fear the consequences; however, she needs to experience that on her own and not have consequences imposed on her via canonical punishment.

If people in Greece, 97% supposedly Orthodox, generally consider abortion nothing more than birth control, then they clearly do not fear God or the consequences. The Church exists in part to make people realize how separated they are from God, and call them to repent. If the Church has no teeth to back what it teaches (if it teaches anything at all, in this case), people will not have much concern for their salvation. If your salvation costs you nothing, you won't put much value in it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 11:33:57 AM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #652 on: March 08, 2010, 12:58:51 PM »

If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.

If people don't want to be Christians, they don't have to be. No one is forcing them.

What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

How can someone possibly live a holy and pure life if the Church doesn't teach them in no uncertain terms what is right and wrong? What good is the Church doing if she lies to people, saying their soiled wedding garments are good enough? To enter heaven, people have to be utterly transformed and deified. What good, then, does it do people when the Church lowers her standards?

I know you are speaking from a place of compassion, but how compassionate is it in the eternal sense? It's morphine for a terminal patient, it's not the medicine they need.

A woman who has an abortion can fear God and fear the consequences; however, she needs to experience that on her own and not have consequences imposed on her via canonical punishment.

If people in Greece, 97% supposedly Orthodox, generally consider abortion nothing more than birth control, then they clearly do not fear God or the consequences. The Church exists in part to make people realize how separated they are from God, and call them to repent. If the Church has no teeth to back what it teaches (if it teaches anything at all, in this case), people will not have much concern for their salvation. If your salvation costs you nothing, you won't put much value in it.

Amen
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« Reply #653 on: March 08, 2010, 01:09:45 PM »

If your salvation costs you nothing, you won't put much value in it.

That assumes that people have already been saved; a concept which is non-existent in the Orthodox Church.  If people are aware that they have not already been saved, they know they can confess on their deathbed just as St. Constantine did.  Abortion is not the only fruit of this attitude ... a lot of other attitudes fit as well starting with not attending Church frequently.

Plus in Greece, attitudes exist which are loosely translated as "Believe but don't ask" and "Freely you have received, now give."  These attitudes have also made their way among the Diaspora in a vast majority of people of 3rd generation and greater.  For example, Men and women under 50 who do not attend Church services in the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #654 on: March 08, 2010, 01:13:44 PM »

If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.

If people don't want to be Christians, they don't have to be. No one is forcing them.

Exactly.  So any Christian woman who has an abortion is no longer a Christian?   Huh  What about non-Christian women who have abortions?

What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

How can someone possibly live a holy and pure life if the Church doesn't teach them in no uncertain terms what is right and wrong? What good is the Church doing if she lies to people, saying their soiled wedding garments are good enough? To enter heaven, people have to be utterly transformed and deified. What good, then, does it do people when the Church lowers her standards?

I know you are speaking from a place of compassion, but how compassionate is it in the eternal sense? It's morphine for a terminal patient, it's not the medicine they need.

Where has the Church lied to people?
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« Reply #655 on: March 08, 2010, 01:20:39 PM »

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.

I agree with the way you see it.  PeterTheAleut's own Church displays none of his personal sensitivity about not condemning those who perform abortions.

The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html

Who are the vile enemies?  Not the woman who sought an abortion?  How about those enemies who tempted the woman into situations where an abortion was selected?

I suppose that if you, being in the Greek Archdiocese, subscribe to the belief that abortion is not a moral issue than of course there are no vile enemies. 

When I said, "I hate abortion"  is that a belief that abortion is not a moral issue?  If I say that I hate pre-martial sex and I'm a hypocrite for having engaged in pre-marital sex rather than running away like Joseph from Potiphar's wife, does that make me morally compromised and a cast out of the Orthodox Church?  The vile enemy is Satan who tempted the woman in the ways you described later on whether by drunkenness, by flattery, et al.

What is happening is morally neutral (or is it seen as morally good?) for the woman, for the medical professionals involved, for the supportive husband, for the people, family and friends, advising abortion.

Do you find that the reported attitude of neutrality towards abortion in Greece is the common position amongst GOA faithful in the States?

I'm not the spokesman for the GOA.
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« Reply #656 on: March 08, 2010, 02:12:12 PM »

A priest friend of mine wrote to him three years ao - No reply

Fr Edward Pehanich, a priest of the EP and the Founder of OCL woite to him and to GOA - No reply

Fr Anthony Nelson, head of the Oklahoma OCL wrote to him and to GOA - No reply.

You might want to confirm if Fr. Seraphim Bell ever received a reply as well:
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/BellOpenLetter.shtml
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« Reply #657 on: March 08, 2010, 02:20:28 PM »

Don't kill the messenger.
You have killed yourselves by becoming crucifiers in your hatred and seeking to destroy the Church.
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« Reply #658 on: March 08, 2010, 02:31:53 PM »

If your salvation costs you nothing, you won't put much value in it.

That assumes that people have already been saved; a concept which is non-existent in the Orthodox Church.  If people are aware that they have not already been saved, they know they can confess on their deathbed just as St. Constantine did.  Abortion is not the only fruit of this attitude ... a lot of other attitudes fit as well starting with not attending Church frequently.

I think we agree here...I'm not completely sure what you are saying.

What I mean is, salvation costs a person something—we cannot do whatever we want, we have to obey what the Church teaches. And if the Church punishes us for grave sin, we must consider that necessary to our salvation. If we love God, it will cost us something in return. From the world's perspective it will cost us our desires, our freedom, our time, our money, and for some our lives. If people aren't willing to sacrifice these things to save their souls, then what's the point?

If the attitude of some Orthodox Christians is to just make a deathbed confession and everything will be okay, then the Church has some serious work to do in calling them to repentance. The last thing the Church should do is continue adopting a "live and let live" attitude. That's fine when it comes to non-Christians, but the Church needs to start fighting—hard—against the spirit of the age, which is apparently alive and well in the Orthodox world.
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« Reply #659 on: March 08, 2010, 02:42:31 PM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?

The point is that Saint Basil teaches us that "Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderers." 

Saint Basil is quite certain about this.  He repeats it in his letters and canons more than once.  I think we have already quoted one such canon.  Here is another, Canon VIII:

"But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees"..

Saint John Chrysostom also speaks of murderers....

"—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born."
Homilies on Romans 24

 

Again, what's your point?  You want me to join your stone throwing party?
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« Reply #660 on: March 08, 2010, 02:43:27 PM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

So, for you, Orthodoxy is not factual, but just one system of values among many in the marketplace of ideas, to be arbitrated, in this case, by secular legal bodies.
You're putting words into my mouth.  You might try actually listening, instead.  That way you won't attribute to me things I never said.
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« Reply #661 on: March 08, 2010, 02:50:28 PM »

If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.

If people don't want to be Christians, they don't have to be. No one is forcing them.

Exactly.  So any Christian woman who has an abortion is no longer a Christian?   Huh  What about non-Christian women who have abortions?

No, people make mistakes, even grave ones, and they are still Christians.

But if people want to be Christians without having to do any work, or face penance for committing repeated or grave sins, they may as well drop the charade and go live the way they want to. Clearly their goal is not theosis, it's pleasure. The Church needs to enforce its edicts for our own good. For our salvation.

What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

How can someone possibly live a holy and pure life if the Church doesn't teach them in no uncertain terms what is right and wrong? What good is the Church doing if she lies to people, saying their soiled wedding garments are good enough? To enter heaven, people have to be utterly transformed and deified. What good, then, does it do people when the Church lowers her standards?

I know you are speaking from a place of compassion, but how compassionate is it in the eternal sense? It's morphine for a terminal patient, it's not the medicine they need.

Where has the Church lied to people?

If the Church pats people on the hand and says none of these grave sins are important enough to warrant making people uncomfortable, that is lying. If the Church releases people into eternity with soiled wedding garments which they think are clean, or that a bit of dirt—or a lot—doesn't matter, that is lying.

How uncomfortable will it be when the Bridegroom says "Away from me, you evildoer!"?  The Church is obligated to help people clean the sin out of their lives. It can't do that when our leaders don't have the spines to assert that something is a sin with the same tenacity that the Holy Fathers did.

Meanwhile, souls are falling into Hades like snowflakes, and I have grave concerns if the Church is not doing absolutely everything She can to stop that. The Church must take bold stands on these issues because the demons will drag people into hell unwittingly. Sadly, the Church oftentimes seems more concerned about playing word games and trying not to upset or offend people. When salvation is at stake, feelings should come dead last.
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« Reply #662 on: March 08, 2010, 03:06:44 PM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

So, for you, Orthodoxy is not factual, but just one system of values among many in the marketplace of ideas, to be arbitrated, in this case, by secular legal bodies.
You're putting words into my mouth.  You might try actually listening, instead.  That way you won't attribute to me things I never said.

Or perhaps you could say things that make sense. So explain for us: why is the statement that abortion is murder a value judgment, and not a fact? How is this distinction meaningful?  What is your criteria for determining factual statements versus value judgments? Do you really believe in such a distinction, or did you concoct it on the fly out of some burning need for polemical ammunition? You say that you consider abortion to be murder- in so doing, how are you not thereby judging everyone who commits abortion to be a murderer?
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« Reply #663 on: March 08, 2010, 03:31:49 PM »

Don't kill the messenger.
You have killed yourselves by becoming crucifiers in your hatred and seeking to destroy the Church.
^ Dumbest post of the month?
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« Reply #664 on: March 08, 2010, 03:39:18 PM »

Don't kill the messenger.
You have killed yourselves by becoming crucifiers in your hatred and seeking to destroy the Church.
^ Dumbest post of the month?
At least they can get two Roman Catholics, a Nestorian and a Non Chalcedonian to support them.
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« Reply #665 on: March 08, 2010, 04:06:23 PM »

Don't kill the messenger.
You have killed yourselves by becoming crucifiers in your hatred and seeking to destroy the Church.
The link is included,lest I be guilty of plagerism

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« Reply #666 on: March 08, 2010, 04:26:24 PM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?

The point is that Saint Basil teaches us that "Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderers."  

Saint Basil is quite certain about this.  He repeats it in his letters and canons more than once.  I think we have already quoted one such canon.  Here is another, Canon VIII:

"But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees"..

Saint John Chrysostom also speaks of murderers....

"—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born."
Homilies on Romans 24

 

Again, what's your point?  You want me to join your stone throwing party?

I fail to see your point.  You would appear to see the teaching of the Saints on abortion, of the most prominent Holy Fathers, as a stone throwing party?

Can you not see that they are upholding the moral teaching of the Church?   And yet I think we can be certain that at the same time they evince compassion for the poor people caught in serious sin.   There is no stone throwing party.   Upholding moral teaching and showing compassion are not mutually exclusive for Christians.

Bringing this within the ambit of my experience of parish life, I can say that there is no stone tthowing from me or other parishioners who assist women who have had abortions and their husbands.  Instead there is compassion and love and a desire to be of assistance in the healing process. Your assumption that stone throwing takes place appears as some emotional ploy which is way out of line with reality.
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« Reply #667 on: March 08, 2010, 04:28:39 PM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

So, for you, Orthodoxy is not factual, but just one system of values among many in the marketplace of ideas, to be arbitrated, in this case, by secular legal bodies.
You're putting words into my mouth.  You might try actually listening, instead.  That way you won't attribute to me things I never said.

Or perhaps you could say things that make sense.
If I don't make sense, the best thing to do is ask questions to elicit from me an answer you can comprehend.  Reading into my statements what you want to see is not the way to accomplish this.

So explain for us: why is the statement that abortion is murder a value judgment, and not a fact?
That abortion is the killing of a living being is a fact that cannot be denied; something was alive and growing before the abortion and is now dead as a result of the abortion.  To call that living being a human person, however, is a judgment based on what we define to be a human person.  The Church gives us that definition by stating that human life begins at conception, so those who follow the Orthodox Way cannot call the victim of abortion anything less than a human person.  We will even say that those who disagree with us by calling the abortion victim something less than human (e.g., a fetus, a blob of flesh, etc.) are just plain wrong in that they don't recognize the image of Christ in that person.  However, this is something that cannot be verified except through the eyes of faith.  That an unborn child is a human person cannot be proven empirically, hence I do not call this statement a fact; to me, it is a statement of faith borne from our discernment of the image of Christ in the unborn human child--a value judgment, you might say.

Likewise with calling abortion murder...  What is the term "murder"?  What does it mean?  How do we use the term?  We don't call just any act of human killing human murder.  Sometimes it's an accident.  Sometimes it's performed in self-defense; sometimes without malice aforethought and without premeditation, which our legal code has branded "manslaughter".  So what distinguishes murder from just any killing of a human person?  The act of killing must match up with our definition of "murder", a definition that in itself makes "murder" a value-laden word.  We must judge the facts of the case, discern the motives of the killer, and determine whether all the evidence we've reviewed shows that the act of killing matches our definition of "murder".  Once we've done all this, the ultimate verdict of "murder" cannot but be a judgment.  The only fact that can be proclaimed from all this is that we judged the killer to have committed murder.

Having said all this, I am an Orthodox Christian who strives only to see the world and everything in it as the Church sees it.  The Church has always recognized that human life begins at conception, which makes abortion no less than the taking of a human life.  I recognize also that the Church has traditionally judged abortion to be murder, and I don't disagree--abortion requires premeditation and some level of gross disregard for the sanctity of human life, which matches my definition of murder.  As such, I also call abortion murder.  But there's no way of verifying empirically that abortion is murder, since "murder" is itself a value-laden word that connotes harsh judgment of the crime.  This is why I call the statement that abortion is murder a judgment and not a fact.

How is this distinction meaningful?
As a way of recognizing when I am actually judging someone and when I am merely proclaiming fact.  You may disagree, but I see the Gospel proclaiming very clearly that we are not to judge other persons wantonly.

What is your criteria for determining factual statements versus value judgments?
I think I explained that above.

Do you really believe in such a distinction,
Yes, I do.

or did you concoct it on the fly out of some burning need for polemical ammunition?
No.

You say that you consider abortion to be murder- in so doing, how are you not thereby judging everyone who commits abortion to be a murderer?
If my belief that abortion is murder tacitly implies that those who commit abortion are therefore murderers, then so be it.  I refuse to give voice to that implication, however, because I don't see how calling an abortion provider a murderer does anything but fan the flames of condemnation in myself and others.  I would rather point out how the abortion provider is committing murder and call him to repentance.
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« Reply #668 on: March 08, 2010, 04:35:47 PM »

Quote
But if people want to be Christians without having to do any work, or face penance for committing repeated or grave sins, they may as well drop the charade and go live the way they want to. Clearly their goal is not theosis, it's pleasure. The Church needs to enforce its edicts for our own good. For our salvation.
That's probably what they do in some protestant churches, don't they?
Yet, you seem to fail to understand that this is not the way that Orthodox societies work: in order to have produce a Siluan the Athonite, or a Porphyrius or a Cleopa it takes many  thousands of quite nominal or rather not so conscious Orthodox Christians, that still form a medium where holiness can be achieved.
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« Reply #669 on: March 08, 2010, 04:37:46 PM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?

The point is that Saint Basil teaches us that "Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderers." 

Saint Basil is quite certain about this.  He repeats it in his letters and canons more than once.  I think we have already quoted one such canon.  Here is another, Canon VIII:

"But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees"..

Saint John Chrysostom also speaks of murderers....

"—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born."
Homilies on Romans 24

 

Again, what's your point?  You want me to join your stone throwing party?

I fail to see your point.  You would appear to see the teaching of the Saints on abortion, of the most prominent Holy Fathers, as a stone throwing party?
No.  I see you using the teachings of the Fathers as stones to throw in your stone throwing party.

Can you not see that they are upholding the moral teaching of the Church?   And yet I think we can be certain that at the same time they evince compassion for the poor people caught in serious sin.   There is no stone throwing party.   Upholding moral teaching and showing compassion are not mutually exclusive for Christians.

Bringing this within the ambit of my experience of parish life, I can say that there is no stone trthowing from me or other parishioners who assist women who have had abortions and their husbands.  Instead there is compassion and love and a desire to be of assistance in the healing process.    Your assumption that stone throwing takes place appears as some emotional ploy which is way out of line with reality.
This may be the reality in your ministry away from this forum, but all I've seen from most of those calling abortion providers murderers here on this thread is condemnation.  Maybe it's just the weakness of this text-only medium that we don't have body language and facial expressions to temper the strong words people post here.  I'm therefore of the opinion that we need to be extremely careful of the judgmental things we say and the harsh rhetoric we use on this thread.  Without nonverbal cues, the rhetoric is all there is.
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« Reply #670 on: March 08, 2010, 04:53:11 PM »


Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.

Saint Basil the Great does not share your scruples:

"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. . . . Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses. So much on this subject."

Letter to Amphilochius, 188


I'm not St. Basil the Great, and neither are you.  So what's your point?

The point is that Saint Basil teaches us that "Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderers." 

Saint Basil is quite certain about this.  He repeats it in his letters and canons more than once.  I think we have already quoted one such canon.  Here is another, Canon VIII:

"But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees"..

Saint John Chrysostom also speaks of murderers....

"—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born."
Homilies on Romans 24

 

Again, what's your point?  You want me to join your stone throwing party?

I fail to see your point.  You would appear to see the teaching of the Saints on abortion, of the most prominent Holy Fathers, as a stone throwing party?
No.  I see you using the teachings of the Fathers as stones to throw in your stone throwing party.

Tell me, dear brother, have you counselled many women and their husbands on abortion in your decades of service in the Orthodox Church?

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« Reply #671 on: March 08, 2010, 04:54:19 PM »

A bit of a digression, but I think the points are worthwhile:

We will even say that those who disagree with us by calling the abortion victim something less than human (e.g., a fetus, a blob of flesh, etc.) are just plain wrong in that they don't recognize the image of Christ in that person.  However, this is something that cannot be verified except through the eyes of faith. That an unborn child is a human person cannot be proven empirically, hence I do not call this statement a fact; to me, it is a statement of faith borne from our discernment of the image of Christ in the unborn human child--a value judgment, you might say.

Since the infant has different DNA from its mother—which is empirical—it is certainly a distinct human person, so on those grounds alone it is universally killing of a human person. Sentience does not matter, because even removing a brain-dead person from life support requires more assent than abortion does.

Likewise with calling abortion murder...  What is the term "murder"?  What does it mean?  How do we use the term?

According to Common Law, murder is:

1. The act of killing a person
2. The state of mind of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton

We all agree that abortion is the killing of a person. And abortion, being a medical procedure, is intentional, purposeful, and premeditated. On the part of the people involved, it may also be malicious and/or wanton.

So, logically, abortion is murder. It is not a judgment, it is an application of the definition of the word.

The point in question is not point 2, but point 1. Orthodox Christians agree that life begins at conception. The only thing that can be questioned, then, is whether abortion is intentional. Clearly it is—you cannot accidentally find yourself in an abortion clinic with a doctor hunched over you. Nor does the doctor find himself accidentally cutting an infant's skull open with scissors.

I continue to fail to see how it is not objectively murder.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:00:53 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #672 on: March 08, 2010, 05:00:55 PM »


This may be the reality in your ministry away from this forum, but all I've seen from most of those calling abortion providers murderers here on this thread is condemnation.  Maybe it's just the weakness of this text-only medium that we don't have body language and facial expressions to temper the strong words people post here.  I'm therefore of the opinion that we need to be extremely careful of the judgmental things we say and the harsh rhetoric we use on this thread.  Without nonverbal cues, the rhetoric is all there is.

You don't need the facial expressions to see that none of those of us who call abortion providers murderers have said that murderers cannot be forgiven.  While a murderer will not enter into the Kingdom of God, one who repents and is forgiven is covered by the forgiveness of Christ and is no longer a murderer.  Judging someone in the manner that Christ warns us against is not a matter of calling one who murders and murderer, but by making the judgment that because they have sinned, there is no hope for them to find Salvation.  There is always hope for them through Repentance.
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« Reply #673 on: March 08, 2010, 05:01:31 PM »

A bit of a digression, but I think the points are worthwhile:

We will even say that those who disagree with us by calling the abortion victim something less than human (e.g., a fetus, a blob of flesh, etc.) are just plain wrong in that they don't recognize the image of Christ in that person.  However, this is something that cannot be verified except through the eyes of faith. That an unborn child is a human person cannot be proven empirically, hence I do not call this statement a fact; to me, it is a statement of faith borne from our discernment of the image of Christ in the unborn human child--a value judgment, you might say.

Since the infant has different DNA from its mother—which is empirical—it is certainly a distinct human person from, so on that grounds alone it is universally killing of a human person. Sentience does not matter, because even removing a brain-dead person from life support requires more assent than abortion does.
What is it that makes a human life a person?  Is it his DNA?  Bacteria have DNA, but we wouldn't call them persons.  Is this concept of personhood even something that can be verified empirically?  Or is the concept of personhood a way by which we perceive and understand human life--a philosophical construct?

Likewise with calling abortion murder...  What is the term "murder"?  What does it mean?  How do we use the term?

According to Common Law, murder is:

1. The act of killing a person
2. The state of mind of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton

We all agree that abortion is the killing of a person. And abortion, being a medical procedure, is intentional, purposeful, and premeditated. On the part of the people involved, it may also be malicious and/or wanton.

So, logically, abortion is murder. It is not a judgment, it is an application of the Common Law definition.
You don't see how the application of logic found in the Common Law definition of murder is fundamentally a judgment?  You just confirmed the point I've been trying to make.

I continue to fail to see how it is not objectively murder.
Why does the distinction matter, anyway?  Whether or not we agree that abortion is objectively murder, we both agree that abortion is murder. Wink
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:08:46 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #674 on: March 08, 2010, 05:04:49 PM »


This may be the reality in your ministry away from this forum, but all I've seen from most of those calling abortion providers murderers here on this thread is condemnation.  Maybe it's just the weakness of this text-only medium that we don't have body language and facial expressions to temper the strong words people post here.  I'm therefore of the opinion that we need to be extremely careful of the judgmental things we say and the harsh rhetoric we use on this thread.  Without nonverbal cues, the rhetoric is all there is.

You don't need the facial expressions to see that none of those of us who call abortion providers murderers have said that murderers cannot be forgiven.  While a murderer will not enter into the Kingdom of God, one who repents and is forgiven is covered by the forgiveness of Christ and is no longer a murderer.  Judging someone in the manner that Christ warns us against is not a matter of calling one who murders and murderer, but by making the judgment that because they have sinned, there is no hope for them to find Salvation.  There is always hope for them through Repentance.
Then you and I disagree on what it means to judge another person.
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