OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 05:45:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 55643 times) Average Rating: 1
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #585 on: March 07, 2010, 10:03:28 PM »

So as long as the EP keeps spewing us out in his mouthfull, he can expect an earful from us.
I see. Firstly, what "mouthful" is this he is spewing, and secondly, do you think he reads this thread? How about you grow some kahunas and actually write your deranged views in a letter to him instead of making complete fools of yourselves on an anonymous discussion forum?

A priest friend of mine wrote to him three years ao - No reply

Fr Edward Pehanich, a priest of the EP and the Founder of OCL woite to him and to GOA - No reply

Fr Anthony Nelson, head of the Oklahoma OCL wrote to him and to GOA - No reply.

Your turn..
Logged
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #586 on: March 07, 2010, 10:08:54 PM »

Jesus never said she was not an adulterer. He never said adultery was an acceptable choice.

I agree and Jesus knew the law that stoning was an acceptable consequence for adultery under Old Testament / Talmudic Law.

He forgave her when she repented. And He will forgive those involved in the present infanticide if they repent as well. But you cannot construe that story to say that abortion is simply a personal choice. There is no such thing as a personal choice in Orthodox Christianity.

Ah, so you do not believe in free will; in other words, Adam could not have exercised his free will by eating the fruit offered to him by Eve.  He could have said no; however, both their actions had consequences.

Absolutely every choice—both good or sinful—affects every other person.

No dispute from me - sounds like a universal maxim not restricted to Orthodox Christianity.   Wink


The pericope adultera (story of the adultress) is NOT present in the Syriac tradition. This story is present in Greek manuscripts only.
Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #587 on: March 07, 2010, 10:27:44 PM »


And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness.

Dear Peter,  here are interpretations of other people.

1.  "Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
      Rev  Dr Edward Pehanich, priest under the Ecumenical Throne
      Founder of Orthodox Christians for Life
      http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


2.   "A Not So Pro-life Patriarch . . ."
      http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/


3.   "A patriarch who ‘generally speaking, respects human life’ "
      John Couretas, American Orthodox Institute
      http://tinyurl.com/ygusmzg


4.   "Constantinople’s Moral Oversight"
      Andrew F. Estocin on Orthodoxy in the Public Square
      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Why do you accept their interpretations uncritically?  Certainly, you must interpret His All Holiness's words the same way as these authors you cite, or else you would not deem them authoritative.


That's a mouthful of assumptions you are making there, Peter.   laugh  1. That I accept these articles uncritically.  2. that I must interpret... 3.  that I deem the authors authoritative... 

I would be very happy to accept references to contrary interpretations of the words of His Divine All-Holiness.

My own search on the internet for articles supporting the orthodoxy of HDAH's words have proved fruitless.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #588 on: March 07, 2010, 10:43:36 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

Bravo. Peter!   I call arianiam a heresy but I refuse to call Arius a heretic.

I call paedophilia a sin but I refuse to judge the priests and monks who sodomise 10 year olds.

I call wifeebeating an act of violence but I refuse to judge wifebeaters.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #589 on: March 07, 2010, 10:48:17 PM »

State of the Debate

To sum up the state of the debate so far. 

Various statements have been produced from senior Orthodox clergy and from Orthodox religious writers interpreting the Patriarch's words as allowing abortion at the discretion of the couple.

No statements have been produced showing that this is a wrong interpretion of the Patriarch's words and giving his correct intention.

Against the Patriarch --- 5
For the Patriarch  ------- 0
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 10:56:45 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #590 on: March 07, 2010, 11:05:59 PM »


Perhaps, but I don't think labeling people is a good way of calling them to repentance. If someone doesn't think abortion is murder, calling them a murderer doesn't actually teach them anything.


Priests have tro deal with abortion frequently, sad to say.  Of course they do not look at a woman who has had an abortion with loathing in their faces and shriek "murderer." 

Although come to think of it, I have known one priest to do just that when the husband had not known about the abortion and took the priest home with him to remonstrate with the wife.... but that was a Mediterranean priest of hot blood and it was all said in the heat of the moment.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #591 on: March 07, 2010, 11:14:07 PM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...

Sixth Ecumenical Council, 680 AD:

"Those who give drugs procuring abortion and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus are subjected to the penalty of murder" (Canon 91)

The Didache (circa 140 AD):

“Do not murder a child by abortion, nor commit infanticide.” (2:2:2)

The Apostolic Constitutions

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . If it be slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400])."





Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #592 on: March 07, 2010, 11:57:50 PM »


And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness.

Dear Peter,  here are interpretations of other people.

1.  "Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
      Rev  Dr Edward Pehanich, priest under the Ecumenical Throne
      Founder of Orthodox Christians for Life
      http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


2.   "A Not So Pro-life Patriarch . . ."
      http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/


3.   "A patriarch who ‘generally speaking, respects human life’ "
      John Couretas, American Orthodox Institute
      http://tinyurl.com/ygusmzg


4.   "Constantinople’s Moral Oversight"
      Andrew F. Estocin on Orthodoxy in the Public Square
      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Why do you accept their interpretations uncritically?  Certainly, you must interpret His All Holiness's words the same way as these authors you cite, or else you would not deem them authoritative.


That's a mouthful of assumptions you are making there, Peter.   laugh  1. That I accept these articles uncritically.  2. that I must interpret... 3.  that I deem the authors authoritative... 
But you said so yourself.

Here:
You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?

And here:
Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew?   I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church, as well as that of some not unserious Orthodox religious commentators.  So you're barking up the wrong tree by concentrating on the worm of a monk Ambrose and accusing him of silly interpretations.  I am nothing but a worm and a minnow.   Go after the archpriests and the religious writers who have been referenced in this thread.....  Leave me to my lenten bread and water.

And here:
The evidence points to the opposite if your interpretation is right and the Patriarch was simply being pastoral and allowing couples to choose abortion. 

Senior clergy, including his own, as well as Orthodox religious commentators,  have understood his point as pro-choice.   

I don't have to make assumptions when you speak your mind so clearly. Wink


I would be very happy to accept references to contrary interpretations of the words of His Divine All-Holiness.

My own search on the internet for articles supporting the orthodoxy of HDAH's words have proved fruitless.
I only care to know what His All Holiness said.  I don't care for other persons' interpretations of what His All Holiness said. 
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #593 on: March 07, 2010, 11:59:29 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

Bravo. Peter!   I call arianiam a heresy but I refuse to call Arius a heretic.
The Church calls Arius a heretic; I just accept her verdict.

I call paedophilia a sin but I refuse to judge the priests and monks who sodomise 10 year olds.

I call wifeebeating an act of violence but I refuse to judge wifebeaters.
Playing the emotion card here?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #594 on: March 08, 2010, 12:00:38 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #595 on: March 08, 2010, 12:05:52 AM »

I call paedophilia a sin but I refuse to judge the priests and monks who sodomise 10 year olds.

I call wifebeating an act of violence but I refuse to judge wifebeaters.
Playing the emotion card here?

I just find your approach to the use, or non-use, of the word "murderer" irrational.  If we apply your logic there would be no valid use of the word at all and it should fall out of use.   

We may say that an act is an act of murder but we may not say that anybody is a murderer!!

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #596 on: March 08, 2010, 12:09:06 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

It's not about you, Peter, it is about the killing of the unborn.  Can we get back to the topic and get off the personal focus.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #597 on: March 08, 2010, 12:14:08 AM »


And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness.

Dear Peter,  here are interpretations of other people.

1.  "Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
      Rev  Dr Edward Pehanich, priest under the Ecumenical Throne
      Founder of Orthodox Christians for Life
      http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


2.   "A Not So Pro-life Patriarch . . ."
      http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/


3.   "A patriarch who ‘generally speaking, respects human life’ "
      John Couretas, American Orthodox Institute
      http://tinyurl.com/ygusmzg


4.   "Constantinople’s Moral Oversight"
      Andrew F. Estocin on Orthodoxy in the Public Square
      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Why do you accept their interpretations uncritically?  Certainly, you must interpret His All Holiness's words the same way as these authors you cite, or else you would not deem them authoritative.


That's a mouthful of assumptions you are making there, Peter.   laugh  1. That I accept these articles uncritically.  2. that I must interpret... 3.  that I deem the authors authoritative... 
But you said so yourself.

Here:
You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?

And here:
Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew?   I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church, as well as that of some not unserious Orthodox religious commentators.  So you're barking up the wrong tree by concentrating on the worm of a monk Ambrose and accusing him of silly interpretations.  I am nothing but a worm and a minnow.   Go after the archpriests and the religious writers who have been referenced in this thread.....  Leave me to my lenten bread and water.

And here:
The evidence points to the opposite if your interpretation is right and the Patriarch was simply being pastoral and allowing couples to choose abortion. 

Senior clergy, including his own, as well as Orthodox religious commentators,  have understood his point as pro-choice.   

I don't have to make assumptions when you speak your mind so clearly. Wink

You make such specious arguments in order to focus this discussion on Ambrose.  Could you back away from me and take part in the discussion.  For starters,  what about supplying any articles you have which give a different interpretation of His Divine All-Holiness' words on abortion.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #598 on: March 08, 2010, 12:16:39 AM »

My replies follow here in red:
And I oppose the death penalty. So what's your point?

I oppose the death penalty as well; however, you won't see me protesting an execution (at least not in my state which hasn't executed anyone since 12/2005).  Those executed by the government were executed as a consequence of a personal choice or a series of personal choices which violated civil laws which carry the penalty of death.

Not all of them. Innocent people are executed in this country.

The Saints and martyrs have always been the few, not the many. If we are to be like Christ, then we will inevitably have to interfere with other people's sinful choices in some way. Admonishing, rebuking, correcting, and reproving the wicked; and rescuing the innocent from the hands of the wicked. But sadly, most of us want to stay out of other people's "personal choices" unless those personal choices interfere with us. Then, of course, we decry the injustice!

ozgeorge said it best when he cited Matthew 7:6 in asking us why should we throw pearls before the swine?

Referring to page 1279 of the Orthodox Study Bible in the footnotes for Matthew 7:6, "swine" are those who habitually live immoral and impure lives and we protect the faithless people from the condemnation that would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  Example, if a woman has an abortion, she has held God's Mysteries in contempt (specifically, the Mystery of Life) and if a murderer is executed, both he and the State have held God's Mysteries in contempt (Ending of the Mystery of Life).  One could argue that by remaining silent on the topic of abortion, the EP protects both Himself and His own faithless flock from the rightful condemnation which would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  The problem is that we don't know who humbles his/herself in repentance as illustrated by King David who sinned many times, received repentance many times and above all, suffered the consequences many times only to be doubly rewarded a couple of times

You conveniently forgot about Nathan the Prophet, who judged David's actions and severely rebuked him. It was this firm rebuke that spurred David to repentance. But I guess Nathan would be called self righteous and judgmental by many people today.

"Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend." [St. John 15:13]

"Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these, you have done it unto Me." [St. Matthew 25:40]

1.  The Orthodox Study Bible analyzes verses 12 and 14, not 13, in John 15.  I put on Christ when I was baptized and not the EP.  You might have been better off citing John 15:10 in that one cannot love God and disobey His commandments (John 14:15, which again has no analysis in the Orthodox Study Bible).  So, if a woman has an abortion which disobeys the Commandment not to kill, is it automatically assumed that she loves herself more than she loves God?

The act of abortion is self-centered and self-serving, not self-loving. Abortion is an act contrary to peace, tolerance, and human rights. It is violent, judgmental (condemning an innocent child to an unjust death), and inhumane. So, if you are concerned about people not being judgmental, then I would expect you to be vocally outspoken against those who condemn innocent children to violent and unjust deaths.

BTW, I'm not sure what your point is about Bible verses that don't have commentary from the OSB. Do you think these verses are any less authoritative? That's not an Orthodox view of Scripture.


2.  That presumes you can see Christ in everyone.  I can't ... can you?

I'm not sure what your question is here. But certainly we should try to see Christ in all people, as all people are created in the image of God- from the unborn child to the abortionist. So if you fail to intervene in the matter of abortion, then you are guilty of being judgmental; for you judge that both the unborn child and its mother are unworthy of your compassion and concern. Who are you to treat other human beings with such callousness and disregard? Do you not remember Our Lord's parable of the Good Samaritan? Do you not remember God telling Cain that he is his brother's keeper? Do you think the Gospel means myopic navel gazing, caring only about our own sins and our own salvation while ignoring the needs of our fellow man? Do you think Our Lord died on the Cross so that we would live this life on earth with our heads buried in the sand, assuaging our narcissistic apathy towards the suffering of others by relying on the specious cliche of "We can't be judgmental"?

Wake up my friend. Wink



Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #599 on: March 08, 2010, 12:20:55 AM »


I call paedophilia a sin but I refuse to judge the priests and monks who sodomise 10 year olds.

I call wifeebeating an act of violence but I refuse to judge wifebeaters.
Playing the emotion card here?

That's logic, not emotion Peter. Emotional argumentation comes from those of you who refuse to recognize the logical truth that one who commits murder is by definition a murderer.


Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #600 on: March 08, 2010, 12:24:08 AM »


To call a person a murderer IS a judgment of that person.  I don't care how you dress it up.  The fact that I call abortion murder does not lead me to judge those who perform abortions as murderers.  

Saint John Chrysostom did so.

Canon II:
"A woman who aborts deliberately is liable to trial as a murderess."

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well.

Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #601 on: March 08, 2010, 12:49:56 AM »

My replies follow here in red:
And I oppose the death penalty. So what's your point?

I oppose the death penalty as well; however, you won't see me protesting an execution (at least not in my state which hasn't executed anyone since 12/2005).  Those executed by the government were executed as a consequence of a personal choice or a series of personal choices which violated civil laws which carry the penalty of death.

Not all of them. Innocent people are executed in this country.

The Saints and martyrs have always been the few, not the many. If we are to be like Christ, then we will inevitably have to interfere with other people's sinful choices in some way. Admonishing, rebuking, correcting, and reproving the wicked; and rescuing the innocent from the hands of the wicked. But sadly, most of us want to stay out of other people's "personal choices" unless those personal choices interfere with us. Then, of course, we decry the injustice!

ozgeorge said it best when he cited Matthew 7:6 in asking us why should we throw pearls before the swine?

Referring to page 1279 of the Orthodox Study Bible in the footnotes for Matthew 7:6, "swine" are those who habitually live immoral and impure lives and we protect the faithless people from the condemnation that would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  Example, if a woman has an abortion, she has held God's Mysteries in contempt (specifically, the Mystery of Life) and if a murderer is executed, both he and the State have held God's Mysteries in contempt (Ending of the Mystery of Life).  One could argue that by remaining silent on the topic of abortion, the EP protects both Himself and His own faithless flock from the rightful condemnation which would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  The problem is that we don't know who humbles his/herself in repentance as illustrated by King David who sinned many times, received repentance many times and above all, suffered the consequences many times only to be doubly rewarded a couple of times.  

You conveniently forgot about Nathan the Prophet, who judged David's actions and severely rebuked him. It was this firm rebuke that spurred David to repentance. But I guess Nathan would be called self righteous and judgmental by many people today.

"Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend." [St. John 15:13]

"Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these, you have done it unto Me." [St. Matthew 25:40]

1.  The Orthodox Study Bible analyzes verses 12 and 14, not 13, in John 15.  I put on Christ when I was baptized and not the EP.  You might have been better off citing John 15:10 in that one cannot love God and disobey His commandments (John 14:15, which again has no analysis in the Orthodox Study Bible).  So, if a woman has an abortion which disobeys the Commandment not to kill, is it automatically assumed that she loves herself more than she loves God?

The act of abortion is self-centered and self-serving, not self-loving. Abortion is an act contrary to peace, tolerance, and human rights. It is violent, judgmental (condemning an innocent child to an unjust death), and inhumane. So, if you are concerned about people not being judgmental, then I would expect you to be vocally outspoken against those who condemn innocent children to violent and unjust deaths.

BTW, I'm not sure what your point is about Bible verses that don't have commentary from the OSB. Do you think these verses are any less authoritative? That's not an Orthodox view of Scripture.


2.  That presumes you can see Christ in everyone.  I can't ... can you?

I'm not sure what your question is here. But certainly we should try to see Christ in all people, as all people are created in the image of God- from the unborn child to the abortionist. So if you fail to intervene in the matter of abortion, then you are guilty of being judgmental; for you judge that both the unborn child and its mother are unworthy of your compassion and concern.

If I do not intervene in the matter of abortion then I am as judgmental as if I don't stop someone from being killed in Baltimore City.  Is every person killed in Baltimore City worth my compassion and concern?  I make no differentiation in how each person in Baltimore City dies whether by gunshot or being hit by a car or on the operating table of a hospital or being aborted, et al.?  If you're going to preach the parable about doing the least of my brethren, you better be ready to back it up.  I do not do much for the least of my brethren whether it is an unborn child or people dying in my city.  You're making Christ a "yes or no" proposition and I have tried to tell you that Christ made a provision for a big grey area.  Whether your Church refuses to recognize the grey area is really none of my concern.

Who are you to treat other human beings with such callousness and disregard? Do you not remember Our Lord's parable of the Good Samaritan? Do you not remember God telling Cain that he is his brother's keeper? Do you think the Gospel means myopic navel gazing, caring only about our own sins and our own salvation while ignoring the needs of our fellow man? Do you think Our Lord died on the Cross so that we would live this life on earth with our heads buried in the sand, assuaging our narcissistic apathy towards the suffering of others by relying on the specious cliche of "We can't be judgmental"?

I do not pretend to be saved unlike whatever belief system you've brought into the OO.  I've been on the other side of callousness and disregard, beginning with my ex-wife.  I was never her keeper and while she's a nice person, she is an example of the figurative "swine" quoted in Matthew 7:6.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 01:00:24 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,566



« Reply #602 on: March 08, 2010, 12:53:49 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #603 on: March 08, 2010, 12:58:03 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

It's not about you, Peter, it is about the killing of the unborn.  Can we get back to the topic and get off the personal focus.
No, my question is germane to the topic.  You expressed a misunderstanding of a post I submitted earlier to this thread, a post that is itself a discussion of the topic of abortion.  So this isn't just about me.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #604 on: March 08, 2010, 12:58:26 AM »


To call a person a murderer IS a judgment of that person.  I don't care how you dress it up.  The fact that I call abortion murder does not lead me to judge those who perform abortions as murderers.  

Saint John Chrysostom did so.

Canon II:
"A woman who aborts deliberately is liable to trial as a murderess."

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well.

Father, the Church needs young people more than ever.  This generation is intelligent, has access to Internet on telephones, views 3D video games and movies, et al.  If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.  What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.  If you want to have youth live in fear of canonical punishment through the Orthodox Church, guess what, the youth will seek out faith organizations where there is no canonical punishment (and there is no implication that the EPs silence on abortion represents some kind of canonical free pass for women to have an abortion for that is a pastoral responsibility).

The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom.  (Proverbs 1:7)

A woman who has an abortion can fear God and fear the consequences; however, she needs to experience that on her own and not have consequences imposed on her via canonical punishment.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #605 on: March 08, 2010, 01:04:48 AM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.
And yet, how many times have I said very clearly that I deem abortion no less than murder?  I'm not trying to exonerate anyone.  I just don't think calling practitioners and facilitators of abortion murderers is going to accomplish anything as far as bringing them to repentance.  Such labeling may satisfy your apparent need to feel that you have the moral high ground in this debate, but I'm not here to do that.  I want that we should extend mercy and forgiveness together with the prophetic witness that abortion is murder and those who practice or facilitate it must repent.  I'm not about punishment.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #606 on: March 08, 2010, 01:12:20 AM »

Jesus never said she was not an adulterer. He never said adultery was an acceptable choice.

I agree and Jesus knew the law that stoning was an acceptable consequence for adultery under Old Testament / Talmudic Law.

He forgave her when she repented. And He will forgive those involved in the present infanticide if they repent as well. But you cannot construe that story to say that abortion is simply a personal choice. There is no such thing as a personal choice in Orthodox Christianity.

Ah, so you do not believe in free will; in other words, Adam could not have exercised his free will by eating the fruit offered to him by Eve.  He could have said no; however, both their actions had consequences.

Absolutely every choice—both good or sinful—affects every other person.

No dispute from me - sounds like a universal maxim not restricted to Orthodox Christianity.   Wink

The pericope adultera (story of the adultress) is NOT present in the Syriac tradition. This story is present in Greek manuscripts only.

Gee, thanks for sharing although I don't read any Syriac Scriptures.   Undecided
Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #607 on: March 08, 2010, 01:16:37 AM »


To call a person a murderer IS a judgment of that person.  I don't care how you dress it up.  The fact that I call abortion murder does not lead me to judge those who perform abortions as murderers.  

Saint John Chrysostom did so.

Canon II:
"A woman who aborts deliberately is liable to trial as a murderess."

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well.

Father, the Church needs young people more than ever.  This generation is intelligent, has access to Internet on telephones, views 3D video games and movies, et al.  If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.  What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.  If you want to have youth live in fear of canonical punishment through the Orthodox Church, guess what, the youth will seek out faith organizations where there is no canonical punishment (and there is no implication that the EPs silence on abortion represents some kind of canonical free pass for women to have an abortion for that is a pastoral responsibility).
Father bless.

Fr. Ambrose, My many kids and Gebre’s will come celebrate Divine Liturgy with you anytime during this decade.  Smiley

« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 01:17:08 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #608 on: March 08, 2010, 01:29:36 AM »


Father, the Church needs young people more than ever.  This generation is intelligent, has access to Internet on telephones, views 3D video games and movies, et al.  If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.  What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

I want to offer something pragmatic and pastoral from our experience in our parishes over the last 15 years.


During the time of high immigration from about 1993 to 1999 our parish received over 200 families from the old Soviet Union.

Our other parishes in the country received the same and more.

We imported from Russia many many small books and pamphlets to help these people start to slake their thirst for a better understanding of their faith.

One of the items which we imported, really by accident, the "Akathist for Those Who have had an Abortion."

All of the Akathists were taken within two Sundays.

So we ordered several dozen more.... they too were taken in a flash.

Then women started appearing to dicuss with the clergy the abortions they had had back in the Soviet Union.

Repentance and warm heartfelt tears became the order of the day.

None of this was done by harsh condemnation.   The grace of the Holy Spirit touched the souls of these women as they read the Akathist.   What they read met a deep need in them to come to terms with their abortions and with the children they had aborted.  The women were unblocked in their spiritial lives.  In the Church they found their place of healing.


Some here may decry this as emotionalism, buit they would be ignorant of what took place in these women's lives.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #609 on: March 08, 2010, 01:30:54 AM »


To call a person a murderer IS a judgment of that person.  I don't care how you dress it up.  The fact that I call abortion murder does not lead me to judge those who perform abortions as murderers.  

Saint John Chrysostom did so.

Canon II:
"A woman who aborts deliberately is liable to trial as a murderess."

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well.

Father, the Church needs young people more than ever.  This generation is intelligent, has access to Internet on telephones, views 3D video games and movies, et al.  If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.  What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.  If you want to have youth live in fear of canonical punishment through the Orthodox Church, guess what, the youth will seek out faith organizations where there is no canonical punishment (and there is no implication that the EPs silence on abortion represents some kind of canonical free pass for women to have an abortion for that is a pastoral responsibility).
Father bless.

Fr. Ambrose, My many kids and Gebre’s will come celebrate Divine Liturgy with you anytime during this decade.  Smiley

ms.hoorah, I'm not Fr. Ambrose.  Make sure you're quoting the correct poster.   Wink

Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #610 on: March 08, 2010, 01:37:02 AM »


Father, the Church needs young people more than ever.  This generation is intelligent, has access to Internet on telephones, views 3D video games and movies, et al.  If you want to enforce St. John Chrysostom's edicts against abortion, you'll be celebrating Liturgy by yourself in a decade.  What is wrong with embracing the young and encouraging them to live holy and pure lives and help them develop their own fear of God.

I want to offer something pragmatic and pastoral from our experience in our parishes over the last 15 years.


During the time of high immigration from about 1993 to 1999 our parish received over 200 families from the old Soviet Union.

Our other parishes in the country received the same and more.

We imported from Russia many many small books and pamphlets to help these people start to slake their thirst for a better understanding of their faith.

One of the items which we imported, really by accident, the "Akathist for Those Who have had an Abortion."

All of the Akathists were taken within two Sundays.

So we ordered several dozen more.... they too were taken in a flash.

Then women started appearing to dicuss with the clergy the abortions they had had back in the Soviet Union.

Repentance and warm heartfelt tears became the order of the day.

None of this was done by harsh condemnation.   The grace of the Holy Spirit touched the souls of these women as they read the Akathist.   What they read met a deep need in them to come to terms with their abortions and with the children they had aborted.  The women were unblocked in their spiritial lives.  In the Church they found their place of healing.

Some here may decry this as emotionalism, buit they would be ignorant of what took place in these women's lives.

Confession is practiced regularly in the Russian Orthodox Church and the OCA.  Every OCA Vespers that I've attended included at least 5-10 people receiving Confessions.  I commend these Churches for preaching the frequency of Confession, well done.   Smiley

Confession is not practiced regularly by adults in the Churches administered by the EP.  Children do confess to Priests at summer camps throughout the GOA; however, I've never heard a call to Confession from any GOA pulpit.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #611 on: March 08, 2010, 01:54:54 AM »


Confession is not practiced regularly by adults in the Churches administered by the EP.  Children do confess to Priests at summer camps throughout the GOA; however, I've never heard a call to Confession from any GOA pulpit.

It was reported earlier (see message 541) that in Greece abortion is not seen as a moral issue.  So there would be no need for it to be confessed in Confession nor to prevent the person going up for Communion.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #612 on: March 08, 2010, 02:01:54 AM »

My responses follow in red:


I'm not sure what your question is here. But certainly we should try to see Christ in all people, as all people are created in the image of God- from the unborn child to the abortionist. So if you fail to intervene in the matter of abortion, then you are guilty of being judgmental; for you judge that both the unborn child and its mother are unworthy of your compassion and concern.

If I do not intervene in the matter of abortion then I am as judgmental as if I don't stop someone from being killed in Baltimore City.  Is every person killed in Baltimore City worth my compassion and concern? [Yes. The difference is that you cannot know for sure where and when random murders are occurring, so there is little you can do about it. But if you know where an abortion clinic is, or if you know someone who is contemplating an abortion or is an abortionist, then you can certainly try to deter them from their murderous intentions.]I make no differentiation in[/color] how each person in Baltimore City dies whether by gunshot or being hit by a car or on the operating table of a hospital or being aborted, et al.?  If you're going to preach the parable about doing the least of my brethren, you better be ready to back it up. [I fully admit that I don't do nearly enough. But I don't pretend to exculpate myself from my responsibility by saying "I don't want to be judgmental."]  I do not do much for the least of my brethren whether it is an unborn child or people dying in my city.  You're making Christ a "yes or no" proposition and I have tried to tell you that Christ made a provision for a big grey area. [When it becomes legal to murder you, I'll make sure that nobody passes judgment on the unjust action that takes your life. After all, that's a grey area.] Whether your Church refuses to recognize the grey area is really none of my concern. [And that sums up your problem pretty well. You just don't care about the innocent victims of abortion.]

Who are you to treat other human beings with such callousness and disregard? Do you not remember Our Lord's parable of the Good Samaritan? Do you not remember God telling Cain that he is his brother's keeper? Do you think the Gospel means myopic navel gazing, caring only about our own sins and our own salvation while ignoring the needs of our fellow man? Do you think Our Lord died on the Cross so that we would live this life on earth with our heads buried in the sand, assuaging our narcissistic apathy towards the suffering of others by relying on the specious cliche of "We can't be judgmental"?

I do not pretend to be saved unlike whatever belief system you've brought into the OO. [Now you attack my "belief system." Since I am Orthodox, I don't subscribe to systematic theology. I abide by the teachings of the Church, which is why I promote the apostolic concern for the unborn children in the womb.]  I've been on the other side of callousness and disregard, beginning with my ex-wife.  I was never her keeper and while she's a nice person, she is an example of the figurative "swine" quoted in Matthew 7:6. [And apparrently, in your view, the unborn are unworthy swine as well. No need to keep them; violently discard them at the whim of choice.]    Selam
[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:03:47 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #613 on: March 08, 2010, 02:03:35 AM »


Confession is not practiced regularly by adults in the Churches administered by the EP.  Children do confess to Priests at summer camps throughout the GOA; however, I've never heard a call to Confession from any GOA pulpit.

It was reported earlier (see message 541) that in Greece abortion is not seen as a moral issue.  So there would be no need for it to be confessed in Confession nor to prevent the person going up for Communion.
I think he was talking about the situation in America (GOA), not in Greece.
Communion, as I hear, is not a very frequent affair in Greece, either, as it is not in any other traditionally Orthodox country.
So, I would doubt that there would be many women that had abortions waiting to receive the Communion on most Sundays.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #614 on: March 08, 2010, 02:12:29 AM »


Confession is not practiced regularly by adults in the Churches administered by the EP.  Children do confess to Priests at summer camps throughout the GOA; however, I've never heard a call to Confession from any GOA pulpit.

It was reported earlier (see message 541) that in Greece abortion is not seen as a moral issue.  So there would be no need for it to be confessed in Confession nor to prevent the person going up for Communion.
I think he was talking about the situation in America (GOA), not in Greece.
Communion, as I hear, is not a very frequent affair in Greece, either, as it is not in any other traditionally Orthodox country.
So, I would doubt that there would be many women that had abortions waiting to receive the Communion on most Sundays.

I was not adverting to the infrequency of communion in either Greece or Greek America but to the treatment of abortion as something which is not a moral issue.    It therefore would not require Confession either in Greece or in the Homogenia and if there has been no sin it does not prevent approaching the Chalice.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:13:52 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #615 on: March 08, 2010, 02:16:26 AM »

Peter said that he does not want to "judge" the murder of the children, well:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.



(Edmund Burke)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:17:13 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,916



« Reply #616 on: March 08, 2010, 02:17:32 AM »

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. (Edmund_Burke)

Yes, still my favorite Bible verse.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:17:44 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #617 on: March 08, 2010, 02:20:15 AM »

Peter said that he does not want to "judge" the murder of the children, well:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.



(Edmund Burke)


I used to use this quote often until someone pointed out that good men do not "do nothing."  Wink


Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #618 on: March 08, 2010, 02:24:04 AM »

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. (Edmund_Burke)

Yes, still my favorite Bible verse.

I could mention the story of how Jerusalem got sacked and the Edomites did the behavior above condemned (staying at the side while evil was committed, or even joined). That is in the bible and gives the same lesson.
Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #619 on: March 08, 2010, 02:35:47 AM »

Jesus never said she was not an adulterer. He never said adultery was an acceptable choice.

I agree and Jesus knew the law that stoning was an acceptable consequence for adultery under Old Testament / Talmudic Law.

He forgave her when she repented. And He will forgive those involved in the present infanticide if they repent as well. But you cannot construe that story to say that abortion is simply a personal choice. There is no such thing as a personal choice in Orthodox Christianity.

Ah, so you do not believe in free will; in other words, Adam could not have exercised his free will by eating the fruit offered to him by Eve.  He could have said no; however, both their actions had consequences.

Absolutely every choice—both good or sinful—affects every other person.

No dispute from me - sounds like a universal maxim not restricted to Orthodox Christianity.   Wink

The pericope adultera (story of the adultress) is NOT present in the Syriac tradition. This story is present in Greek manuscripts only.

Gee, thanks for sharing although I don't read any Syriac Scriptures.   Undecided

My avatar links to an interlinear of the Aramaic Gospels. You will notice a few minor differences, but this one on the pericope adultera is a major one.
Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #620 on: March 08, 2010, 03:07:54 AM »

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.

I agree with the way you see it.  PeterTheAleut's own Church displays none of his personal sensitivity about not condemning those who perform abortions.

The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html
Logged
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #621 on: March 08, 2010, 03:30:16 AM »

The slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod (or in Egypt by the Pharaoh) always somehow for some reason struck me as a shadow of the evil of abortion. Its like Satan destroys those who will cause him trouble before they are even born.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:30:43 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #622 on: March 08, 2010, 03:39:18 AM »

The slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod (or in Egypt by the Pharaoh) always somehow for some reason struck me as a shadow of the evil of abortion. Its like Satan destroys those who will cause him trouble before they are even born.

Yep. Pharaoh and Herod would have definitely been Pro-Choice. And how dare we judge them for their personal choices to slaughter the innocent children. It was a grey area; a political issue.


Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #623 on: March 08, 2010, 03:51:08 AM »

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.

I agree with the way you see it.  PeterTheAleut's own Church displays none of his personal sensitivity about not condemning those who perform abortions.

The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html

Who are the vile enemies?  Not the woman who sought an abortion?  How about those enemies who tempted the woman into situations where an abortion was selected?

My philosophy has always been simple ... If you don't want to think about an abortion, do not engage in activities which have consequences of pregnancy.  I'm a father of a young child; I was not wise when I engaged in activities with the child's mother.  Am I doomed to eternal damnation because of one poor decision?  How about a woman who had an abortion ... is she doomed to eternal damnation?  On Earth nor in Heaven, we don't know the answer.   Huh
Logged
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #624 on: March 08, 2010, 03:53:44 AM »

The slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod (or in Egypt by the Pharaoh) always somehow for some reason struck me as a shadow of the evil of abortion. Its like Satan destroys those who will cause him trouble before they are even born.

Yep. Pharaoh and Herod would have definitely been Pro-Choice. And how dare we judge them for their personal choices to slaughter the innocent children. It was a grey area; a political issue.


Selam

 All the babies and the population belonged to the king according to the ancient laws of those lands. It was their personal choice. None of our business. Respect the difference between Church and State.  Grin
Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #625 on: March 08, 2010, 04:04:19 AM »

My responses below in red:



The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html

Who are the vile enemies?  Not the woman who sought an abortion?  How about those enemies who tempted the woman into situations where an abortion was selected?

The vile enemies are those who prey upon the weak for selfish gain or sadistic pleasure. Most certainly the abortionists and those who pressure women to have an abortion are vile enemies of the unborn and of women. But the mother who kills her own child is a vile enemy to that child, is she not?

I often think of Our Lord's words, "Because of this world, offenses must come. But woe to them through whom the offense cometh." [St. Matthew 18:7] In other words, it is one thing to be weak and sinful, to fall into temptations, to occasionally make horrible choices (such as abortion); but it is quite another thing to prey upon the weak, the sinful, and the tempted by enticing them at every turn in order to financially profit or derive some sordid pleasure form it. These predators are unquestionably "vile enemies." And I place abortionists, drug dealers, and pornographers in this category.  


My philosophy has always been simple ... If you don't want to think about an abortion, do not engage in activities which have consequences of pregnancy.  I'm a father of a young child; I was not wise when I engaged in activities with the child's mother.  Am I doomed to eternal damnation because of one poor decision?  How about a woman who had an abortion ... is she doomed to eternal damnation?  On Earth nor in Heaven, we don't know the answer.   Huh

Indeed we do not know the answer. So shouldn't this compell us to help women not make an irrovocable murderous decsion that may in fact lead to the loss of their eternal lives?


Selam
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 04:06:25 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,342

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #626 on: March 08, 2010, 04:09:50 AM »

The slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod (or in Egypt by the Pharaoh) always somehow for some reason struck me as a shadow of the evil of abortion. Its like Satan destroys those who will cause him trouble before they are even born.

Yep. Pharaoh and Herod would have definitely been Pro-Choice. And how dare we judge them for their personal choices to slaughter the innocent children. It was a grey area; a political issue.


Selam

 All the babies and the population belonged to the king according to the ancient laws of those lands. It was their personal choice. None of our business. Respect the difference between Church and State.  Grin

Exactly! What were those judgmental Prophets doing sticking their noses in the kings' personal choices?

Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #627 on: March 08, 2010, 04:39:16 AM »

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.

I agree with the way you see it.  PeterTheAleut's own Church displays none of his personal sensitivity about not condemning those who perform abortions.

The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html
Look, Fr. Ambrose, if my church wants to condemn those who perform abortions, that's their business.  I actually don't have a problem with it.  My problem is with individuals like you, me, and Punch taking it upon ourselves individually to judge others for their role in an abortion.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #628 on: March 08, 2010, 04:49:23 AM »

Let's touch base.  Let's get back to reality and away from the deadening and soul-destroying arguments to exonerate those who kill unborn children...
Is that what you think I'm trying to do?

Quite frankly, yes.  If not directly, then indirectly by obfuscating the issue to the point that the actual thrust of the issue is completely lost in you hyperbolic rhetoric.  Of course, that does not mean that I have judged you to be the Antichrist.

I agree with the way you see it.  PeterTheAleut's own Church displays none of his personal sensitivity about not condemning those who perform abortions.

The OCA pulls no punches:

"Thy vile enemies, O Lord, have annihilated Thy children"

That is from an OCA's
Office for the Victims of Abortion
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html

Who are the vile enemies?  Not the woman who sought an abortion?  How about those enemies who tempted the woman into situations where an abortion was selected?

I suppose that if you, being in the Greek Archdiocese, subscribe to the belief that abortion is not a moral issue than of course there are no vile enemies.  What is happening is morally neutral (or is it seen as morally good?) for the woman, for the medical professionals involved, for the supportive husband, for the people, family and friends, advising abortion.

Do you find that the reported attitude of neutrality towards abortion in Greece is the common position amongst GOA faithful in the States?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,638


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #629 on: March 08, 2010, 04:52:30 AM »

The slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod (or in Egypt by the Pharaoh) always somehow for some reason struck me as a shadow of the evil of abortion. Its like Satan destroys those who will cause him trouble before they are even born.

Yep. Pharaoh and Herod would have definitely been Pro-Choice. And how dare we judge them for their personal choices to slaughter the innocent children. It was a grey area; a political issue.


Selam
Gebre, if you're going to lampoon my position, make sure you at least get it right.  If you meant your last few posts to make reference to my position, you did a very good job of putting words into my mouth and creating straw men just so you could knock them down.  Do I need to pull out the 16-point, bold red font again to tell you that I do not believe what you think I believe?
Logged
Tags: abortion 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.221 seconds with 72 queries.