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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 56046 times) Average Rating: 1
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ialmisry
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« Reply #540 on: March 06, 2010, 05:12:59 PM »

His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in American is not in the jurisdiction of Moscow.  I know that those in the Phanar, who haven't noticed that the Ottoman Empire has fallen and so the EP is no longer the Sultan's consecrated Milet Bashi,.........etc
I really don't see your point ialmisry. Why are you telling me all the drivel in this post (other than to join Irish Hermit in disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarchate)?

The Phanar episcopal cartel has been broken.  He doesn't have the might of the Sultan to enforce his choice in diptychs in places where he once had jurisdiction, let alone places where Constantinople never had jurisdiction.

Quote
I have to ask before you responded:
1) Why did you not question your Irish Hermit's

MY Irish Hermit?  As the father raising two sons I am not free to act as Abbot and having any hermits, Irish or otherwise.

Quote
claim that ROCOR is now "canonical" due to its union with the Moscow Patrirchate?

He spoke the Truth. Why would I question it?

Quote
2) If Irish Hemit's point is that Constantinople now considers ROCOR "canonical" because of its union with Moscow, where does that leave the  canonicity of the OCA if Constantinople does not commemorate their First Heirarch?

In place: the Metropolia was not considered canonical until the Tomos of 1970 and the GOANSA, for instance, was not in communion with the Metropolia, now the OCA, until the Tomos.  The Metropolia had a few years earlier approached to come under the EP's omophorion (like the Ukrainians later did) but was rebuffed and told that they would have to settle things with their Mother Church.  Ironic, no?


Quote
3) Did you read the plural pronoun in the last sentance of what you quoted from me?
Yes.
Ὁ πρὸς τὴν πνευματικὴν ταύτην ἐποπτείαν καὶ ἐπίσκεψιν τῶν εἰρημένων ἐκκλησιῶν διοριζόμενος ὑπὸ τῆς Ἱερᾶς Συνόδου τῆς Ἐκκλησίας τῆς Ἑλλάδος Ἀχιερεύς, ὅστις δύναται εἶναι καὶ λαμβάνεσθαι καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀρχιερέων τοῦ καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς Ἁγιωτάτου Πατριαρχικοῦ Οἰκουμενικοῦ Θρόνου, ἀπολυόμενος ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ
  ὀφείλει παραγίγνεσθαι ἑκάστοτε εἰς Κωνσταντινούπολιν καὶ λαμβάνειν τὴν ἑπευλογίαν τοῦ Οἰκουμενικοῦ Πατριάρχου πρὸς δὲ καὶ τὸ διὰ τὰς ἐκκλησίας ταύτας Ἅγιον Μῦρον.  
Your question?

Quote
4) Did you read my first point to Irish Hermit about the canonical problem of all the Churches in the US?

This one?
Constantinople is in communion with ROCOR...
Thats nice. But what has that got to do with ROCOR's or OCA's canonical status?
Yes.
Quote
5) What difference does it make who the Bishop is of the Moscow Patriarchate in America? The pont is its neither Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) nor Archbishop Hilarion (ROCOR), so we still have the problem of three Bishops of the same cities,

LOL.  That's been a long standing problem: how many canons had to be adopted by the Fathers to stop bishops from lagging about Constantinople, hanging on the "Resident Synod."  

LOL. How many bishops are sitting around navel gazing in the Phanar today?  When was the last time that, say, Met. Zizoulis was in Pergamon?  No pastoral duties, instead sitting about St. George's, dreaming up things like the Primus/protos or whatever they call that nonsense.

LOL.  Actually no, the three aren't in New York, and given that 1 of the three you mention is in a metochian, and another has stravropegal status, even if they were, hardly a problem of the local bishop.  Met. Jonah is in Washington, and their is no bishop at present in New York.  The Headquarters is in Syosett, the Cathedral in Brooklyn.  ROCOR's headquaters is in New York City, as is the metochion of the Patriarch of Moscow, from which the bishop of Kahira (not in New York) managed the patriarchal parishes.

Met. Hilarion isn't the head of an autocephalous Church, so he wouldn't be commemorated by the EP in any case: does the EP commemorate his Congolese Cypriot "Estonian?"


Quote
yet only one Patriarch (of Moscow) is commemorated the the dyptich of Constantinople

Which would made sense as their is only one Patriarch of Moscow.

Quote
My guess is that you didn't,

Guess again.

Quote
because you were to eager to please Irish Hermit and bash the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Roll Eyes
Quote
As I said to you earlier on the thread, perhaps you just have a better Patriarch than I do, so lets drop it huh?

And yet you picked it up here.

Quote
And to quote your own very wise words to ytterbiaumanalist and PetertheAleut earlier in this thread, perhaps you and Irish Hermit should consider the option of:
Can you two get a room....

A chapel?  I'd love to have the honor of saying a Paraklesis/Molieben or Akathist with Fr. Ambrose, and a many years to Met. Hilarion and Patriarch Kyril.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:24:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #541 on: March 06, 2010, 08:35:16 PM »


see 2004 stats. The abortion rate is increasing (before the data stopped being given of course).

For a peer reviewed study on the matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15938171


blame is placed on the laxity of the OC on the matter in several articles I read.

Rafa, I followed your link and found this.  Totally astounding, in a country which is 97% Orthodox.

http://tinyurl.com/yfbsvtg


"The triviality of abortion in Greece"

"In Greece ...abortion is the primary form of birth control.

"Abortion is used as the primary method of birth control regardless of a woman's socioeconomic status.

"Abortion is not a moral issue in Greece."

The last statement is the most astounding of all and it upholds your comment that the Church is lax (how about utterly failing?) in this area of moral education. Either it is failing or, God forbid, it shares the Patriarch's reported teaching that abortion is a personal choice.  Is there any information available on this?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 08:46:47 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #542 on: March 06, 2010, 08:45:15 PM »

That's what disturbed me Father Ambrose. The highest rate in Europe and 97% orthodox!! Clearly a firmer stand needs to be taken. I will research further. Nobody can say "well it was communists" since Greeks were never communists too.
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« Reply #543 on: March 06, 2010, 10:20:37 PM »

Nobody can say "well it was communists" since Greeks were never communists too.

Actually, the Communist Party of Greece is the oldest party on the Greek political scene. There are several other communist parites there. The fact that they never gained full power does not mean that they had no influence on society. "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

And it cannot be said that the GOC does nothing to improve the situation: http://www.unborn.gr
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 10:47:41 PM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #544 on: March 06, 2010, 11:25:59 PM »

"In Greece ...abortion is the primary form of birth control.

Lord have mercy.  Cry
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« Reply #545 on: March 07, 2010, 12:54:11 AM »

The last statement is the most astounding of all and it upholds your comment that the Church is lax (how about utterly failing?) in this area of moral education. Either it is failing or, God forbid, it shares the Patriarch's reported teaching that abortion is a personal choice.  Is there any information available on this?

So are other personal choices prevalent in Greece like: drinking, aggressive driving, staying at the nightclub until sunrise, falling asleep on the job, killing police officers during protests, et al.  Should His All Holiness speak out against these personal choices.

The people of Greece felt that they didn't have freedom until 1975 when they rejected the monarchy.  A now assistant professor of sociology in Athens wrote a book on the topic of Greek women and abortions during the 1990's:

The Empty Cradle of Democracy: Sex, Abortion, and Nationalism in Modern Greece
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« Reply #546 on: March 07, 2010, 01:11:39 AM »

The last statement is the most astounding of all and it upholds your comment that the Church is lax (how about utterly failing?) in this area of moral education. Either it is failing or, God forbid, it shares the Patriarch's reported teaching that abortion is a personal choice.  Is there any information available on this?

So are other personal choices prevalent in Greece like: drinking, aggressive driving, staying at the nightclub until sunrise, falling asleep on the job, killing police officers during protests, et al.  Should His All Holiness speak out against these personal choices.

It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue.  I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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« Reply #547 on: March 07, 2010, 01:20:39 AM »


It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue.  I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



I feel the same way. But stand firm, and continue to shine the Light of Christ in the midst of this darkness. You are not alone.


Selam
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« Reply #548 on: March 07, 2010, 01:30:28 AM »

The last statement is the most astounding of all and it upholds your comment that the Church is lax (how about utterly failing?) in this area of moral education. Either it is failing or, God forbid, it shares the Patriarch's reported teaching that abortion is a personal choice.  Is there any information available on this?

So are other personal choices prevalent in Greece like: drinking, aggressive driving, staying at the nightclub until sunrise, falling asleep on the job, killing police officers during protests, et al.  Should His All Holiness speak out against these personal choices.

It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue. 

From a country where a Bishop, then under the Ecumenical Patriarch for there was no Church of Greece, raised the Liberty or Death flag against the Ottoman Turks.  Guess what, whoever the EP was in 1821 kept silent about the Greek Independence Movement which was, apparently, another personal choice.

I'm against abortion; however, I remember my own prurient sins before I judge someone who has had an abortion, or drank too much, or drives aggressively, well, you get the picture.   Cool

I cannot condemn a woman for going to an abortion clinic any more than I condemn myself for my multitude of sins; I have been taught to pray and that's it.  The topic is personal for me; however, just as the Orthodox Church dealt with many controversial topics; She will deal with this one.

I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

Father, there is no new Orthodoxy being born.   

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Lord have Mercy on all of us.
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« Reply #549 on: March 07, 2010, 01:32:10 AM »


It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue.  I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



I feel the same way. But stand firm, and continue to shine the Light of Christ in the midst of this darkness. You are not alone.

Amen.
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« Reply #550 on: March 07, 2010, 01:37:39 AM »

SolEX just paraphrased the EP's words: he cannot "condemn" abortion and he just leaves it for the person to decide based on their "situation". This is an unacceptable unorthodox position. At least the Coptic patriarch is more honest: he says that in the case of something like incest, abortion is still a sin but it should be left to God to judge the sinner. He does not absolve abortion like the EP.
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« Reply #551 on: March 07, 2010, 01:55:51 AM »

SolEX just paraphrased the EP's words: he cannot "condemn" abortion and he just leaves it for the person to decide based on their "situation". This is an unacceptable unorthodox position.

Do you think you are being judgmental when you use the terms "unacceptable unorthodox position?"  Who are you to say that?

At least the Coptic patriarch is more honest: he says that in the case of something like incest, abortion is still a sin but it should be left to God to judge the sinner. He does not absolve abortion like the EP.

Where did you find the words "absolution" in what the EP said and what I allegedly paraphrased?  Seems to me you missed the point.  If a Nestorian woman has an abortion, what would your Church do about it before and after the fact?  Would they excommunicate her?  Would they beat her?  You tell me?   Huh

Should the same apply for any woman who has an abortion under the EP's Omophorion?  Are you supportive of the use of religious police like in Iran?  Did Jesus Christ beat anyone who sinned?  What did He say on the cross as He drew his final breath?

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« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 01:56:46 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #552 on: March 07, 2010, 02:24:10 AM »

Quote
If a "Nestorian" woman has an abortion

Impossible!


Such a sin would necessitate the "Takhsa d'Khusaya" (order of pardon).

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« Reply #553 on: March 07, 2010, 05:35:31 AM »

SolEX just paraphrased the EP's words: he cannot "condemn" abortion and he just leaves it for the person to decide based on their "situation".
And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness. Roll Eyes  Yours exercises even greater license with what's been presented to us on this thread.  So what's your agenda?  Take every opportunity you can to bash us big, bad "Byzantines"?
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« Reply #554 on: March 07, 2010, 06:00:27 AM »


And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness.

Dear Peter,  here are interpretations of other people.

1.  "Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
      Rev  Dr Edward Pehanich, priest under the Ecumenical Throne
      Founder of Orthodox Christians for Life
      http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


2.   "A Not So Pro-life Patriarch . . ."
      http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/


3.   "A patriarch who ‘generally speaking, respects human life’ "
      John Couretas, American Orthodox Institute
      http://tinyurl.com/ygusmzg


4.   "Constantinople’s Moral Oversight"
      Andrew F. Estocin on Orthodoxy in the Public Square
      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v




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« Reply #555 on: March 07, 2010, 09:52:47 AM »


It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue.  I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?




I feel the same way. But stand firm, and continue to shine the Light of Christ in the midst of this darkness. You are not alone.


Selam


Before the Lord returns, there must be the Great Apostasy.  The Protestants and Latins cannot apostatize because they are not the Church.  Only the Church can fall into apostasy, and I believe that we can see that all around us.  Christ Himself asked the question "When I return, will I find Faith?"  The answer is Yes, because the gates of Hell will not triumph over the Body of Christ.  However, we will be much like the Prophet who, in despair asked God if he was the only one left in Jerusalem who still believed.  Then God gave him the words of comfort (and admonition) that there were several thousand who had not bowed to Baal.  We need to keep this story from the Old Testament in our hearts and minds as the Churches around us turn to Antichrist.  We should be comforted that there will be thousands who will not fall into apostasy and worship the spirit of the Antichrist.  We should also be admonished not to judge, because like the great prophet, we will not always know who they are.

Peace my Brothers
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« Reply #556 on: March 07, 2010, 01:09:28 PM »

Well said, Punch.
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« Reply #557 on: March 07, 2010, 02:10:59 PM »

Quote
If a "Nestorian" woman has an abortion

Impossible!

Quite confident and boastful, aren't we.   Roll Eyes  Does that mean there are no abortion clinics where Nestorian women live or do Nestorian women not engage in "personal choices" that Greek and other western Orthodox Christian women engage in?   Huh

Such a sin would necessitate the "Takhsa d'Khusaya" (order of pardon).

Kindly tell us what the order of pardon means and who enforces it?  Does it involve stoning, whipping and/or other kinds of physical punishment?   Huh  We live in the 21st Century, not the 4th Century.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #558 on: March 07, 2010, 04:03:34 PM »


It's sad and frustrating to see fellow Orthodox treating abortion like a minor issue, even a non-issue.  I have been profoundly shocked to see something remotely defensive about abortion coming from Christian mouths.  Maybe I have grown too old and there is a new Orthodoxy being born?

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?




I feel the same way. But stand firm, and continue to shine the Light of Christ in the midst of this darkness. You are not alone.


Selam


Before the Lord returns, there must be the Great Apostasy.  The Protestants and Latins cannot apostatize because they are not the Church.  Only the Church can fall into apostasy, and I believe that we can see that all around us.  Christ Himself asked the question "When I return, will I find Faith?"  The answer is Yes, because the gates of Hell will not triumph over the Body of Christ.  However, we will be much like the Prophet who, in despair asked God if he was the only one left in Jerusalem who still believed.  Then God gave him the words of comfort (and admonition) that there were several thousand who had not bowed to Baal.  We need to keep this story from the Old Testament in our hearts and minds as the Churches around us turn to Antichrist.  We should be comforted that there will be thousands who will not fall into apostasy and worship the spirit of the Antichrist.  We should also be admonished not to judge, because like the great prophet, we will not always know who they are.

Peace my Brothers


Thanks for the good word my friend. Indeed we must be careful not to pull the wheat up with the tares. Christ will separate the Sheep from the goats in due time.

But I do think that we must judge sin and call it what it is. There is a difference between judging sin and judging the sinner. I cannot judge the sinner, for I am not God. I also have the beam of sin in my own eye. But, as Orthodox Christians, we are to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth. This involves calling good, "good" and evil "evil." By condemning sin, we are not setting ourselves up as God or being self righteous; instead, we are bearing witness to the Truth of Christ. By condemning sin, we are also being compassionate; for it is unmerciful not to warn our fellow man of the temporal and eternal consequences of violating God's commands.

The two main points to remember about judgment are: 1) That our judgement must be without hypocrisy; and 2)That we judge righteously.

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.


Selam
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« Reply #559 on: March 07, 2010, 04:20:00 PM »

So as long as the EP keeps spewing us out in his mouthfull, he can expect an earful from us.
I see. Firstly, what "mouthful" is this he is spewing, and secondly, do you think he reads this thread? How about you grow some kahunas and actually write your deranged views in a letter to him instead of making complete fools of yourselves on an anonymous discussion forum?
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« Reply #560 on: March 07, 2010, 05:03:32 PM »

Thanks for the good word my friend. Indeed we must be careful not to pull the wheat up with the tares. Christ will separate the Sheep from the goats in due time.

But I do think that we must judge sin and call it what it is.

What you call sin is another person's "personal choice."  The sinful woman made a personal choice to commit adultery, which carried the death penalty; however, she was not executed when Jesus intervened.

There is a difference between judging sin and judging the sinner. I cannot judge the sinner, for I am not God. I also have the beam of sin in my own eye. But, as Orthodox Christians, we are to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth. This involves calling good, "good" and evil "evil."

Those require judgments.   Smiley

By condemning sin, we are not setting ourselves up as God or being self righteous; instead, we are bearing witness to the Truth of Christ. By condemning sin, we are also being compassionate; for it is unmerciful not to warn our fellow man of the temporal and eternal consequences of violating God's commands.

Only if you are prepared to suffer the consequences for interfering in a person's "personal choices."  Many of us are unwilling to do that.  Dr. King spent many a night in jail for protesting injustice and look at what happened to him at the end.  Are we prepared to pay that price?  As Orthodox Christians, we are called to be prepared to pay that price and yet, very few of us put our money where our mouth is so to speak.

The two main points to remember about judgment are: 1) That our judgement must be without hypocrisy; and 2)That we judge righteously.

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.

I say abortion is a sin which is the truth taught by the Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers.  Am I prepared to lay down my life to be locked up or killed for opposing abortion ... no.  Does that make me any less of an Orthodox Christian ... if I understand your POV on this forum, yes.  Do I care what you think ... NO.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 05:12:05 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #561 on: March 07, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.
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« Reply #562 on: March 07, 2010, 05:16:43 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Murder is killing a human person. A murderer is someone who commits the act of murder.

Calling a facilitator of abortion a murderer can only be considered judgmental to someone who does not believe that abortion is murder. For someone who does (and that is the Church's position), it's simply a fact.
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« Reply #563 on: March 07, 2010, 05:17:11 PM »


And I questioned Irish Hermit's interpretation of the words of His All Holiness.

Dear Peter,  here are interpretations of other people.

1.  "Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
      Rev  Dr Edward Pehanich, priest under the Ecumenical Throne
      Founder of Orthodox Christians for Life
      http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


2.   "A Not So Pro-life Patriarch . . ."
      http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/


3.   "A patriarch who ‘generally speaking, respects human life’ "
      John Couretas, American Orthodox Institute
      http://tinyurl.com/ygusmzg


4.   "Constantinople’s Moral Oversight"
      Andrew F. Estocin on Orthodoxy in the Public Square
      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v
Why do you accept their interpretations uncritically?  Certainly, you must interpret His All Holiness's words the same way as these authors you cite, or else you would not deem them authoritative.
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« Reply #564 on: March 07, 2010, 05:19:49 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
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« Reply #565 on: March 07, 2010, 05:24:51 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Murder is killing a human person. A murderer is someone who commits the act of murder.

Calling a facilitator of abortion a murderer can only be considered judgmental to someone who does not believe that abortion is murder.
Why such conclusive language?  How do you know this with such absolute certainty?

For someone who does (and that is the Church's position), it's simply a fact.
To call a person a murderer IS a judgment of that person.  I don't care how you dress it up.  The fact that I call abortion murder does not lead me to judge those who perform abortions as murderers.  What do we hope to accomplish by calling someone a murderer, anyway?  Do we hope with the label to provoke others to think even worse of the person who in some way facilitated the abortion?
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« Reply #566 on: March 07, 2010, 05:25:46 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.
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« Reply #567 on: March 07, 2010, 05:26:46 PM »

Thanks for the good word my friend. Indeed we must be careful not to pull the wheat up with the tares. Christ will separate the Sheep from the goats in due time.

But I do think that we must judge sin and call it what it is.

What you call sin is another person's "personal choice."  The sinful woman made a personal choice to commit adultery, which carried the death penalty; however, she was not executed when Jesus intervened.

Jesus never said she was not an adulterer. He never said adultery was an acceptable choice.

He forgave her when she repented. And He will forgive those involved in the present infanticide if they repent as well. But you cannot construe that story to say that abortion is simply a personal choice. There is no such thing as a personal choice in Orthodox Christianity. Absolutely every choice—both good or sinful—affects every other person.
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« Reply #568 on: March 07, 2010, 05:28:37 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
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« Reply #569 on: March 07, 2010, 05:31:27 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.
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« Reply #570 on: March 07, 2010, 05:32:30 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

If abortion is murder, then those who perform abortions are performing murders. How is that not a judgment?
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« Reply #571 on: March 07, 2010, 05:38:48 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

If abortion is murder, then those who perform abortions are performing murders.
With that logic I don't disagree at all, since it's focused on the act and not on the actor.  To go the next step, though, and call someone a murderer based on this logic is to attach a label to that person that will affect how you and others view that person from this time forth.  I would rather counter the person's murderous acts by calling him to see what he's doing and repent.
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« Reply #572 on: March 07, 2010, 05:39:22 PM »

Why such conclusive language?  How do you know this with such absolute certainty?

Are you serious?

Because an infant, from the moment the soul enters the body at conception, is a distinct and unique human being. To intentionally cause a human being's life to end prematurely is murder. How can it be any less conclusive?

What else can it be called? Do you have any alternative names for the concept of returning a human soul to God prematurely?

What do we hope to accomplish by calling someone a murderer, anyway?  Do we hope with the label to call attention to the person's acts and therefore provoke others to think even worse of the person who in some way facilitated the abortion?

Since when is it labeling to apply an accurate noun ("murder") to a concept ("cutting a live infant to pieces")?

Clearly, in our present callous culture, people have no awe or respect for human life. Maybe if we start calling things what they are instead of playing around with euphemisms, people will actually take a moment to think about what's happening around us every day. If all it takes to get people riled up is using words they don't like, I'm all for it.
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« Reply #573 on: March 07, 2010, 05:44:16 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

If abortion is murder, then those who perform abortions are performing murders.
With that logic I don't disagree at all, since it's focused on the act and not on the actor.  To go the next step, though, and call someone a murderer based on this logic is to attach a label to that person that will affect how you and others view that person from this time forth.  I would rather counter the person's murderous acts by calling him to see what he's doing and repent.

I don't see anything judgmental about calling people by the thing they do. St Paul does it, saying that fornicators, idolators, adulterers, etc will not inherit the kingdom. It's just stating facts, I don't understand why people are so upset by it.

I am a glutton, among other things. I know it, and I have to repent every day for it. If someone called me a glutton I would try to apply it as a needed chastisement. If people are repentant, they will accept the labels that are thrown at them as good for their salvation, I think.
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« Reply #574 on: March 07, 2010, 05:49:34 PM »

Why such conclusive language?  How do you know this with such absolute certainty?

Are you serious?

Because an infant, from the moment the soul enters the body at conception, is a distinct and unique human being. To intentionally cause a human being's life to end prematurely is murder. How can it be any less conclusive?

What else can it be called? Do you have any alternative names for the concept of returning a human soul to God prematurely?
I have no issue with calling abortion murder.  Read my reply again and see what I actually quoted and replied to.
Calling a facilitator of abortion a murderer can only be considered judgmental to someone who does not believe that abortion is murder.
How can you say with such absolute certainty that there's only one possible way to interpret someone's refusal to call a facilitator of abortion a murderer?

What do we hope to accomplish by calling someone a murderer, anyway?  Do we hope with the label to call attention to the person's acts and therefore provoke others to think even worse of the person who in some way facilitated the abortion?

Since when is it labeling to apply an accurate noun ("murder") to a concept ("cutting a live infant to pieces")?

Clearly, in our present callous culture, people have no awe or respect for human life. Maybe if we start calling things what they are instead of playing around with euphemisms, people will actually take a moment to think about what's happening around us every day. If all it takes to get people riled up is using words they don't like, I'm all for it.
Again, you're implying that my refusal to call an abortion facilitator a murderer means automatically that I don't see abortion as murder.  You're not listening to a thing I'm saying.  Rather, you interpret my words solely through the prism of your own presuppositions.
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« Reply #575 on: March 07, 2010, 05:51:28 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Why don't you consider abortion to be murder?
Why do you think I don't consider abortion to be murder?  I said no such thing.

So what's your definition of "murderer"?
Why does it matter?  I call abortion murder.  But I refuse to judge those who perform abortions.

If abortion is murder, then those who perform abortions are performing murders.
With that logic I don't disagree at all, since it's focused on the act and not on the actor.  To go the next step, though, and call someone a murderer based on this logic is to attach a label to that person that will affect how you and others view that person from this time forth.  I would rather counter the person's murderous acts by calling him to see what he's doing and repent.

I don't see anything judgmental about calling people by the thing they do. St Paul does it, saying that fornicators, idolators, adulterers, etc will not inherit the kingdom. It's just stating facts, I don't understand why people are so upset by it.
Are you comparing yourself to St. Paul?

I am a glutton, among other things. I know it, and I have to repent every day for it. If someone called me a glutton I would try to apply it as a needed chastisement. If people are repentant, they will accept the labels that are thrown at them as good for their salvation, I think.
Judge yourself if you want.  I don't have a problem with it.
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« Reply #576 on: March 07, 2010, 05:53:55 PM »

If people are repentant, they will accept the labels that are thrown at them as good for their salvation, I think.
Perhaps, but I don't think labeling people is a good way of calling them to repentance. If someone doesn't think abortion is murder, calling them a murderer doesn't actually teach them anything. Reminding them that all Life comes from God and that anyone who messes with that is messing with God might call them to repentance- but calling them a "murderer" simply makes a statement they don't accept and which therefore will in no way prevent them from procuring an abortion. Has calling yourself a "glutton" stopped you from being one?
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« Reply #577 on: March 07, 2010, 06:23:19 PM »

My replies follow here in red:

Thanks for the good word my friend. Indeed we must be careful not to pull the wheat up with the tares. Christ will separate the Sheep from the goats in due time.

But I do think that we must judge sin and call it what it is.

What you call sin is another person's "personal choice."  The sinful woman made a personal choice to commit adultery, which carried the death penalty; however, she was not executed when Jesus intervened.

And I oppose the death penalty. So what's your point?

There is a difference between judging sin and judging the sinner. I cannot judge the sinner, for I am not God. I also have the beam of sin in my own eye. But, as Orthodox Christians, we are to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth. This involves calling good, "good" and evil "evil."

Those require judgments.   Smiley

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And I clearly defined what judgments are acceptable and what are not.

By condemning sin, we are not setting ourselves up as God or being self righteous; instead, we are bearing witness to the Truth of Christ. By condemning sin, we are also being compassionate; for it is unmerciful not to warn our fellow man of the temporal and eternal consequences of violating God's commands.

Only if you are prepared to suffer the consequences for interfering in a person's "personal choices."  Many of us are unwilling to do that.  Dr. King spent many a night in jail for protesting injustice and look at what happened to him at the end.  Are we prepared to pay that price?  As Orthodox Christians, we are called to be prepared to pay that price and yet, very few of us put our money where our mouth is so to speak.

The Saints and martyrs have always been the few, not the many. If we are to be like Christ, then we will inevitably have to interfere with other people's sinful choices in some way. Admonishing, rebuking, correcting, and reproving the wicked; and rescuing the innocent from the hands of the wicked. But sadly, most of us want to stay out of other people's "personal choices" unless those personal choices interfere with us. Then, of course, we decry the injustice!

The two main points to remember about judgment are: 1) That our judgement must be without hypocrisy; and 2)That we judge righteously.

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.

I say abortion is a sin which is the truth taught by the Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers.  Am I prepared to lay down my life to be locked up or killed for opposing abortion ... no.  Does that make me any less of an Orthodox Christian ... if I understand your POV on this forum, yes.  Do I care what you think ... NO.

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« Reply #578 on: March 07, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »



The two main points to remember about judgment are: 1) That our judgement must be without hypocrisy; and 2)That we judge righteously.

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.


Selam

I would go so far as to say that it is acceptable to punish certain sins.  However, I believe in doing such we should strive for prevention rather than retaliation.  But, that is an entirely different topic.
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« Reply #579 on: March 07, 2010, 06:29:11 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Only in your mind.  A murderer is simply one who commits murder.  So, if someone has truly committed murder, then, by definition and not judgment, he is a murderer. 
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« Reply #580 on: March 07, 2010, 07:40:21 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Only in your mind.  A murderer is simply one who commits murder.  So, if someone has truly committed murder, then, by definition and not judgment, he is a murderer. 
But then that's based on what we define to be murder, and not just the killing of another human person.  Do note that the U.S. legal system recognizes a difference between various shades of killing.  We make legal distinctions between manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, other categories of homicide, and murder, all based on particular criteria and values that a court must take into account when judging a case.   How is it, then, that we define abortion to be murder except by making a value judgment?  I personally consider abortion to be murder, but I recognize that many people don't.  But again, that abortion is murder is not a fact, but a value judgment.  Now, if the determination that abortion is murder is itself a judgment, how does it not follow that calling a practitioner or facilitator of abortion a murderer is also a judgment?
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« Reply #581 on: March 07, 2010, 08:02:39 PM »

My replies follow here in red:
And I oppose the death penalty. So what's your point?

I oppose the death penalty as well; however, you won't see me protesting an execution (at least not in my state which hasn't executed anyone since 12/2005).  Those executed by the government were executed as a consequence of a personal choice or a series of personal choices which violated civil laws which carry the penalty of death.

The Saints and martyrs have always been the few, not the many. If we are to be like Christ, then we will inevitably have to interfere with other people's sinful choices in some way. Admonishing, rebuking, correcting, and reproving the wicked; and rescuing the innocent from the hands of the wicked. But sadly, most of us want to stay out of other people's "personal choices" unless those personal choices interfere with us. Then, of course, we decry the injustice!

ozgeorge said it best when he cited Matthew 7:6 in asking us why should we throw pearls before the swine?

Referring to page 1279 of the Orthodox Study Bible in the footnotes for Matthew 7:6, "swine" are those who habitually live immoral and impure lives and we protect the faithless people from the condemnation that would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  Example, if a woman has an abortion, she has held God's Mysteries in contempt (specifically, the Mystery of Life) and if a murderer is executed, both he and the State have held God's Mysteries in contempt (Ending of the Mystery of Life).  One could argue that by remaining silent on the topic of abortion, the EP protects both Himself and His own faithless flock from the rightful condemnation which would result from holding God's Mysteries in contempt.  The problem is that we don't know who humbles his/herself in repentance as illustrated by King David who sinned many times, received repentance many times and above all, suffered the consequences many times only to be doubly rewarded a couple of times

"Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend." [St. John 15:13]

"Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these, you have done it unto Me." [St. Matthew 25:40]

1.  The Orthodox Study Bible analyzes verses 12 and 14, not 13, in John 15.  I put on Christ when I was baptized and not the EP.  You might have been better off citing John 15:10 in that one cannot love God and disobey His commandments (John 14:15, which again has no analysis in the Orthodox Study Bible).  So, if a woman has an abortion which disobeys the Commandment not to kill, is it automatically assumed that she loves herself more than she loves God?

2.  That presumes you can see Christ in everyone.  I can't ... can you?
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« Reply #582 on: March 07, 2010, 08:10:16 PM »

Jesus never said she was not an adulterer. He never said adultery was an acceptable choice.

I agree and Jesus knew the law that stoning was an acceptable consequence for adultery under Old Testament / Talmudic Law.

He forgave her when she repented. And He will forgive those involved in the present infanticide if they repent as well. But you cannot construe that story to say that abortion is simply a personal choice. There is no such thing as a personal choice in Orthodox Christianity.

Ah, so you do not believe in free will; in other words, Adam could not have exercised his free will by eating the fruit offered to him by Eve.  He could have said no; however, both their actions had consequences.

Absolutely every choice—both good or sinful—affects every other person.

No dispute from me - sounds like a universal maxim not restricted to Orthodox Christianity.   Wink
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« Reply #583 on: March 07, 2010, 08:22:21 PM »

So we should judge the act, but not the heart or the person who commits the act. Abortion is murder, and those who facilitate such an act are murderers. But to say so is not to judge the person. If I were to seek to punish the abortionist or the people who have abortions, then I would be guilty of judging them. But to clearly and plainly define such an act for what it is is no more judgmental than stating that the color blue is blue.
How is it that calling someone a murderer, as you did, is not judging a person?  Seems like a twisted definition of judgment to me.

Only in your mind.  A murderer is simply one who commits murder.  So, if someone has truly committed murder, then, by definition and not judgment, he is a murderer. 
But then that's based on what we define to be murder, and not just the killing of another human person.  Do note that the U.S. legal system recognizes a difference between various shades of killing.  We make legal distinctions between manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, other categories of homicide, and murder, all based on particular criteria and values that a court must take into account when judging a case.   How is it, then, that we define abortion to be murder except by making a value judgment?  I personally consider abortion to be murder, but I recognize that many people don't.  But again, that abortion is murder is not a fact, but a value judgment.  Now, if the determination that abortion is murder is itself a judgment, how does it not follow that calling a practitioner or facilitator of abortion a murderer is also a judgment?
Abortion is murder.  That is a fact, not undone by legalism any more than genocide also has been at various times and places been made legal by the value judgment of the powers that be.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #584 on: March 07, 2010, 09:31:26 PM »

Abortion is murder.  That is a fact
How is it a fact, and not a judgment?

BTW, I agree fully that abortion is murder, but I don't state this as a matter of fact.  I admit that this is a judgment based on my Orthodox value system.
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