Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 67575 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #495 on: March 06, 2010, 04:58:49 AM »
Archbp Stylianonos has never been known as marching in lockstep with Constantinople.  
::) Yet more of "The World According to Irish Hermit".

Archbishop Stylianos had an unholy row with the Patriarch over the transfer of Bishop Joseph Harkiolakis out of his jurisdiction.  For some reason the Archbishop chose to broadcast his bellicose letters to the Patriarch on the Internet for all to read -- and bellicose and aggressive are certainly the words to decribe them.

More recently there has been a public attack on the Patriarch for his ecumenical relationship and activites with Rome, and again, instead of confining it to an in-house matter for the Sacred Synod, Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #496 on: March 06, 2010, 05:02:21 AM »
.....it is quite clear your agenda has nothing to do with the moral issue of abortion, and everything to do with your disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarch.

The latter was born from the former.  And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
Please forgive me if I'm less than impressed by anything coming from the keyboard of the retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco.

Would we expect otherwise?  A mind already made up and dealing in generalisations ("I'm less than impressed by anything...")

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #497 on: March 06, 2010, 05:06:51 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #498 on: March 06, 2010, 05:11:22 AM »

You mean the "Bishop Emeritus" who cannot spell "discomforting"? That guy?


Oops!  Both you and I stand convicted of ignorance and you owe Bishop Tikhon and his voice recognition software an apology.

Dictionaries reveal that "discomfit" is an English word and it means exactly what the Bishop used it to mean.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #499 on: March 06, 2010, 05:13:57 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.

I have wanted to deal with the issue but others, including yourself, have sought to focus the discussion on my personal failings.  That is why the thread has become a bit of a mess.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #500 on: March 06, 2010, 05:18:34 AM »

You mean the "Bishop Emeritus" who cannot spell "discomforting"? That guy?


Maybe "emeritus" is not widely used in Australia?

From Wiki:

Emeritus (pronounced /ɨˈmɛrɨtəs/) (plural Emeriti, abbreviation emer.)
is an adjective that is used in the title of a retired professor, bishop, or other professional.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeritus

Bolding is mine.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #501 on: March 06, 2010, 05:23:54 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.

I have wanted to deal with the issue but others, including yourself, have sought to focus the discussion on my personal failings.  That is why the thread has become a bit of a mess.
I don't think you have any personal failings. I am well acquainted with your great ascesis. We all are. You posted about them in this thread:
Leave me to my lenten bread and water.
Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #502 on: March 06, 2010, 05:28:32 AM »
.....it is quite clear your agenda has nothing to do with the moral issue of abortion, and everything to do with your disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarch.

The latter was born from the former.  And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
Please forgive me if I'm less than impressed by anything coming from the keyboard of the retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco.

Would we expect otherwise?  A mind already made up and dealing in generalisations ("I'm less than impressed by anything...")
So what?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #503 on: March 06, 2010, 05:32:02 AM »

Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.

George, I implore you to find an accurate source of information. What you are saying is inaccurate and damaging to the unity of the Church.

In May the bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad will be participating in the the Regional Episcopal Assemby for North America.  This will be presided over by the first ranking hierarch of the American Greek Church, His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios.   Clearly he accepts ROCA as canonical.

For the past several years our clergy, including myself, have been serving freely with the local Greek Metropolitan Amphilochios and his clergy.  So he too clearly accepts our canonicity.

Where are you getting contrary information?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:36:00 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #504 on: March 06, 2010, 05:35:11 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.

I have wanted to deal with the issue but others, including yourself, have sought to focus the discussion on my personal failings.  That is why the thread has become a bit of a mess.
I don't think you have any personal failings. I am well acquainted with your great ascesis. We all are. You posted about them in this thread:


I lied, I am a poor example of a monk.  I lied (sort of) about living on bread and water.  I prefer toast and tea.... Modern monks are not a patch on those of old.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:37:57 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #505 on: March 06, 2010, 05:49:45 AM »
Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.
George, I implore you to find an accurate source of information.
I did. You just choose to ignore it. Just like you choose to ignore what the Oecumenical Patriarchate actually teaches because it doesn't suit your agenda.  Here it is again:
If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.
Of course it would. Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.

I really do not know who is supplying you with this misinformation but be it known that since May 2007 the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has been an integral part of the Patriarchate of Moscow.  If ROCA is uncanonical I guess that Moscow is uncanonical.

Act of Canonical Communion Signed in Moscow
http://www.pravmir.com/article_228.html
LOL!  :D What a riot!
Lets look at facts Irish Hermit:
Certainly, there is a problem in geographical areas which do not have a long standing history of the Orthodox Church in that different jurisdictions have Bishops in the same area, but if this in itself is uncanonical, then it is more uncanonical that the same jurisdiction (Moscow Patriarchate) should have three different Bishops and three different local Churches in the same geographical area.

First we have  His Grace Iov, Bishop of Kashira, Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in Canada (and temporarily in the USA)
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?ln=en

Next we have His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America
http://www.oca.org/

Then we have His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm

I think we all have bigger things to worry about than a political editorial in the US.


What you are saying is inaccurate and damaging to the unity of the Church.
:D ROFL! Physician, heal thyself!

I lied (sort of) about living on bread and water.  I prefer toast and tea.... Modern monks are not a patch on those of old.
How great your ascesis! Well done! Thanks for letting the world know about it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:51:50 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #506 on: March 06, 2010, 05:51:11 AM »
Thanks for presenting this, Rafa.  It is interesting and saddening.



Quote
Grecian Abortion Rate Has Left 150K Couples Unable To Have Children

5/3/02

Thessaloniki, Greece -- The first position in abortions, comparatively speaking, both in relation to European countries and to the US, is held by Greece. The large number of abortions, which take place both before and during a marriage, and which can cause serious complications, are the main reason for the high percentage of under-fertility in Greece.

According to specialists, abortions are responsible for a 40% decrease in a woman's fertility. It is estimated that 150,000 couples in Greece cannot have children, because they have at least one abortion in their past.

More than 250,000 abortions take place every year in Greece, of which 40,000 are on underage girls younger than 16. Also, a third of them are performed on married women who would avoid them if they could afford a larger family.

This information was announced by Gynecology Professor of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Ioannis Bodis, speaking at the 2nd day of the 17th Northern Greece Medical Conference, organized by the Thessaloniki Medical Company.

In the 1980-1999 periods, stressed Mr. Bodis, Greece exhibited a decrease of 41% in fertility, twice as much (in percentage) as in the rest of Europe, while the US showed an increase in the fertility factor of 14%.

13% of Greeks have had an abortion:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-greece.html

see 2004 stats. The abortion rate is increasing (before the data stopped being given of course).

For a peer reviewed study on the matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15938171


blame is placed on the laxity of the OC on the matter in several articles I read.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #507 on: March 06, 2010, 05:55:13 AM »
Thanks for presenting this, Rafa.  It is interesting and saddening.

See, again you are showing you have no interest in the teachings of the Oecumenical Patriarchate as expounded on this thread. You're just going to ignore them. Instead you rehash stuff addressed pages ago.

Your tea is getting cold, and you keep telling us you wish to be left to your Lenten ascesis which you have quite clearly described to the world on the Internet.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:56:29 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #508 on: March 06, 2010, 06:03:48 AM »
Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.
George, I implore you to find an accurate source of information.
I did. You just choose to ignore it.

I really think you should substantiate your claim that ROCA is uncanonical in Constantinople's eyes.  Your repeated assertions of non-canonicity are damaging to the unity of the Church.

In May the bishops of ROCA will be participating in the Regional Episcopal Assembly for North America, convened by His Eminence Archbp Demetrios, a hierarch of the Ecumenical Throne

As you will know if you have read the Chambesy statements, participation at these Regional Episcopal Assemblies is restricted to canonical bishops.

Btw, when is Archbishop Stylianos going to convene an Assembly of all the Bishops of Australasia.  The onus falls on him to convene it and to preside.  Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad will participate.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:09:20 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #509 on: March 06, 2010, 06:06:44 AM »
Your tea is getting cold, and you keep telling us you wish to be left to your Lenten ascesis which you have quite clearly described to the world on the Internet.

If tea and toast comprises lenten ascesis then I think I must be engaged in it 365 days of the year.    And since I adore tea and toast it is not so ascetic really.   :laugh:

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #510 on: March 06, 2010, 06:09:40 AM »
I really think you should substantiate your claim that ROCA is uncanonical in Constantinople's eyes.
See above. Your eyesight must be weak from your great fasting and many tears you told us all about.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #511 on: March 06, 2010, 06:17:46 AM »

See, again you are showing you have no interest in the teachings of the Oecumenical Patriarchate as expounded on this thread.

Dear George,

The question of abortion in Greece is concomitant with the issue of the Patriarch and abortion.   A large swathe of Greece, the Northern Territories, is part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  The Ecumenical Patriarch has over 30 dioceses and bishops under his jurisdiction in northern Greece.

Greek statistics on abortion and the ways the Church is dealing with the problem among its faithful have everything to do with the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:42:17 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #512 on: March 06, 2010, 06:19:11 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.

I have wanted to deal with the issue but others, including yourself, have sought to focus the discussion on my personal failings.  That is why the thread has become a bit of a mess.
Kinda hot under the lights, ain't it? ;)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:19:46 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #513 on: March 06, 2010, 06:23:11 AM »
I really think you should substantiate your claim that ROCA is uncanonical in Constantinople's eyes.
See above. Your eyesight must be weak from your great fasting and many tears you told us all about.

Indeed it must be so because I have seen nothing saying that the Russian Church Abroad is uncanonical in the eyes of Constantinople.  

Somebody ought to report the Greek bishops all around the world who are serving Liturgy with "uncanonical" ROCA clergy.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:25:12 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #514 on: March 06, 2010, 06:38:15 AM »
I really think you should substantiate your claim that ROCA is uncanonical in Constantinople's eyes.
See above. Your eyesight must be weak from your great fasting and many tears you told us all about.

Constantinople is in communion with ROCOR...

In 14 points just so you notice...!   :laugh:

SWITZERLAND: March 10, 2009
The Triumph of Orthodoxy Celebrated in Orthodox Churches


... That morning, in the Church of Apostle Paul ...in the Orthodox Center of the Contantinople Patriarchate in Chambessy, near Geneva, Divine Liturgy was led jointly by His Eminence Metropolitan Jeremiah of Switzerland (Constantinople Patriarchate); His Grace Bishop Michael of Geneva and Western Europe (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia); and His Grace Bishop Macarius of Lampsaque (Constantinople Patriarchate). They were joined by ten priests and two deacons representing the Constantinople, Antiochian, Russian (including ROCOR) and Rumanian Churches. ...

Read the article at http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/3engeneva.html
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:51:05 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #515 on: March 06, 2010, 06:47:07 AM »
Thanks for presenting this, Rafa.  It is interesting and saddening.

Instead you rehash stuff addressed pages ago.

Rafa posted that 5 hours ago.   That is hardly a long time.

He posted it in response to my request for information on abortion in Greece.  It was polite to take notice of his message and thank him for finding the information.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #516 on: March 06, 2010, 06:49:45 AM »
Archbp Stylianos has chosen to take it to the Internet and bring it to the attention of the Orthodox world.
Really? That's strange, since he published it in 1990 in The Voice of Orthodoxy.
Your bread will and water will go stale, and you'll run out of tissues if you keep going Irish Hermit.
The previous two pages of this thread says it all.

I have wanted to deal with the issue but others, including yourself, have sought to focus the discussion on my personal failings.  That is why the thread has become a bit of a mess.
Kinda hot under the lights, ain't it? ;)

The greasepaint is running.  It's like the old days when you and George would play tag with me.   :laugh:

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #517 on: March 06, 2010, 06:52:10 AM »
Constantinople is in communion with ROCOR...
Thats nice. But what has that got to do with ROCOR's or OCA's canonical status?

Thanks for presenting this, Rafa.  It is interesting and saddening.

Instead you rehash stuff addressed pages ago.

Rafa posted that 5 hours ago.   That is hardly a long time.
You realise that means you've been sitting on this thread posting continually for over five hours including your accusations against The Oecumenical Patriarchate and telling the world about your great fasting and tears.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:52:34 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #518 on: March 06, 2010, 07:08:30 AM »

You realise that means you've been sitting on this thread posting continually for over five hours

No, my man, it means the opposite, otherwise I would have noticed Rafa's reply earlier.

If you examine my posts you will see there is nothing for 4 hours between 4 pm and 8 pm (New Zealand time, Saturday evening here.)

That is a 4 hour interval.  I've been occupied.  You may have heard that we uncanonical ;D  Russians like to serve Vigil before Sunday Liturgy. Its length varies but since this is the Sunday of the Cross the Vigil takes a little longer.   The veneration of the Holy Cross is one of many people's most loved services.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 07:11:30 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #519 on: March 06, 2010, 07:18:15 AM »
we uncanonical   Russians
I didn't know you were Russian. I thought you were Irish. (Or Serbian, or a New Zealander or something else). Whatever you are, an ethnicity cannot be "uncanonical".
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #520 on: March 06, 2010, 07:26:52 AM »
we uncanonical   Russians
I didn't know you were Russian. I thought you were Irish. (Or Serbian, or a New Zealander or something else). Whatever you are, an ethnicity cannot be "uncanonical".

Grief!  Do we have to descend to this kindergarten level of the use of English!?  I am sure that everybody fully understood the point I was making.

"Constantinople" is regularly used here to mean the "Church of Constantinople."  Everybody accepts this convention although Constantinople is not a Church at all but the name of a city on the Bosphorus.

Let's get back to the topic of the thread.

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #521 on: March 06, 2010, 07:37:10 AM »
we uncanonical   Russians
I didn't know you were Russian. I thought you were Irish. (Or Serbian, or a New Zealander or something else). Whatever you are, an ethnicity cannot be "uncanonical".
Grief!  Do we have to descend to this kindergarten level of the use of English!?  I am sure that everybody fully understood the point I was making.
I'm sure the EP was equally confident that everyone understood his point.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #522 on: March 06, 2010, 07:46:27 AM »
we uncanonical   Russians
I didn't know you were Russian. I thought you were Irish. (Or Serbian, or a New Zealander or something else). Whatever you are, an ethnicity cannot be "uncanonical".
Grief!  Do we have to descend to this kindergarten level of the use of English!?  I am sure that everybody fully understood the point I was making.
I'm sure the EP was equally confident that everyone understood his point.

What makes you confident of that? 

The evidence points to the opposite if your interpretation is right and the Patriarch was simply being pastoral and allowing couples to choose abortion. 

Senior clergy, including his own, as well as Orthodox religious commentators,  have understood his point as pro-choice.   

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #523 on: March 06, 2010, 08:00:40 AM »
 ::) Here we go again.
Please read the previous two pages again Irish Hermit. Repeating things ad nauseum despite the evidence shown you does not make your claims true.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 08:01:40 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #524 on: March 06, 2010, 08:18:09 AM »
::) Here we go again.
Please read the previous two pages again Irish Hermit. Repeating things ad nauseum despite the evidence shown you does not make your claims true.

Are you referring to your ad nauseam repetition of "ROCOR is uncanonical, uncanonical, uncanonical"?

Btw, I think you may be in the glasshouse throwing stones when you wrongly accused Bp Tikhon of writing "discomfit" because you thought it ought to have been "discomfort."    Ad nauseam is spelt just so with an -am, and your ad nauseum does not exist.  Professor Y  -what spelling do you ask of your students?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #525 on: March 06, 2010, 08:21:55 AM »
Your tea and toast will be getting cold.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #526 on: March 06, 2010, 08:36:24 AM »
Your tea and toast will be getting cold.

Uuummmmm.... tea.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #527 on: March 06, 2010, 10:54:48 AM »
If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.
Of course it would. Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.

I really do not know who is supplying you with this misinformation but be it known that since May 2007 the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has been an integral part of the Patriarchate of Moscow.  If ROCA is uncanonical I guess that Moscow is uncanonical.

Act of Canonical Communion Signed in Moscow
http://www.pravmir.com/article_228.html
LOL!  :D What a riot!
Lets look at facts Irish Hermit:
Certainly, there is a problem in geographical areas which do not have a long standing history of the Orthodox Church in that different jurisdictions have Bishops in the same area, but if this in itself is uncanonical, then it is more uncanonical that the same jurisdiction (Moscow Patriarchate) should have three different Bishops and three different local Churches in the same geographical area.

First we have  His Grace Iov, Bishop of Kashira, Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in Canada (and temporarily in the USA)
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?ln=en

Next we have His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America
http://www.oca.org/

Then we have His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm

I think we all have bigger things to worry about than a political editorial in the US.

His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in American is not in the jurisdiction of Moscow.  I know that those in the Phanar, who haven't noticed that the Ottoman Empire has fallen and so the EP is no longer the Sultan's consecrated Milet Bashi, doesn't see it that way, but then didn''t someone bring up the idea here (or the sister thread) that those of us not in the EP's jurisdiction shouldn't be paying attention to His Divein All Holiness?

His Grace, Iob of Kashira. I don't know how well you know geography, but Kashira is in Russia. Not far from Moscow in fact, with a population of 40,000. I mention that given the Phanar perchance for installing bishops of uninhabited sees to rule over those thousands of miles away from said abandoned sees.  HG is not here because of that: Kashira has churches, e.g.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/msirotin/sets/72157616640997100/
The terms of the OCA's Tomos of Autocephaly require that, for those by the terms of the Tomos of Autocephaly "are excluded from autocephaly on the territory of North America....shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described" by the terms of the Tomos.

HE Met.Hilarion's status is rather recent, and explicitely grandfathered by the terms of the Tomos (ROCOR was not part of the Metropolia, has not joined it, and the Tomos allows the PoM to receive uncanonical groups, which by terms of the Tomos at its signing, ROCOR was). "Being guided by the effort towards reestablishing blessed peace, Divinely-decreed love, and brotherly unity in the common work in the harvest-fields of God within the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church and her faithful in the Fatherland and abroad, taking into consideration the ecclesiastical life of the Russian diaspora outside the canonical borders of the Moscow Patriarchate, as dictated by history..[and]...Taking into account that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia performs its service on the territories of many nations...conducting its salvific service in the dioceses, parishes, monasteries, brotherhoods, and other ecclesiastical bodies that were formed through history [as a] self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church....independent in pastoral, educational, administrative, management, property, and civil matters, existing at the same time in canonical unity with the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church."  Given the recent (and immediate: the OCA and ROCOR publically concelebrated as soon as the Act of Canonical Communion was signed) meetings and good will between Met. Jonah and Met. Hilarion (no speech from Met. Jonah upset Met. Hilarion, as obviouly his speaches have riled feathers in the Phanar), these issues of appearance will be dealt with, although there is no argument on substance, at least between the PoM, Met. Jonah, and Met. Hilarion.  Btw, the patriarchal parishes are required to commemorate Met. Jonah in additon to Pat. Kyril.  ROCOR parishes as of yet are not required to commemorate Pat. Kyril in addition to Met. Hilarion.

Your EP, however, has not only his Greek bishops, but others on an ethnic basis over the same territory in North America.  But then, that was the basis on which the EP codified the nonsense we are dealing with in its  1908 "Patriarchal and Synodal Tomos about the orthodox Greek Churches [sic] outside of the specified boundaries of the individual autocephalous churches’ regions dispersed both in Europe and America and the remaining countries.....I.)  For the spiritual oversight and direction of these Churches an Archpriest [i.e. a bishop] appointed by the Sacred Synod of the Church of Greece, having the duty of ministering inspection of each one of these churches from time to time.  II.)  The Archpriest appointed to this spiritual oversight and inspection of the said churches by the Sacred Synod of the Church of Greece, who can both be and receive from among the archpriests by us of the Most Holy Patriarchal Ecumenical Throne, each one given leave from it must appear in Constantinople both to receive the blessing assent of the Ecumenical Patriarch and further for the Holy Myron for these churches...."
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #528 on: March 06, 2010, 10:56:45 AM »
we uncanonical   Russians
I didn't know you were Russian. I thought you were Irish. (Or Serbian, or a New Zealander or something else). Whatever you are, an ethnicity cannot be "uncanonical".
Grief!  Do we have to descend to this kindergarten level of the use of English!?  I am sure that everybody fully understood the point I was making.
I'm sure the EP was equally confident that everyone understood his point.
The petitions for clarification he received should have told him that his confidence was misplaced.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #529 on: March 06, 2010, 11:03:23 AM »

 ROCOR parishes as of yet are not required to commemorate Pat. Kyril in addition to Met. Hilarion.


From discussions on rocorclergy, our clergy list on Yahoo, we have established that none of our priests are not commemorating Patriarch Kirill.   There may be one or two hold-outs but we would probably know of them if there were.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #530 on: March 06, 2010, 11:15:32 AM »
His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in American is not in the jurisdiction of Moscow.  I know that those in the Phanar, who haven't noticed that the Ottoman Empire has fallen and so the EP is no longer the Sultan's consecrated Milet Bashi,.........etc
I really don't see your point ialmisry. Why are you telling me all the drivel in this post (other than to join Irish Hermit in disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarchate)?
I have to ask before you responded:
1) Why did you not question your Irish Hermit's claim that ROCOR is now "canonical" due to its union with the Moscow Patrirchate?
2) If Irish Hemit's point is that Constantinople now considers ROCOR "canonical" because of its union with Moscow, where does that leave the  canonicity of the OCA if Constantinople does not commemorate their First Heirarch?
3) Did you read the plural pronoun in the last sentance of what you quoted from me?
4) Did you read my first point to Irish Hermit about the canonical problem of all the Churches in the US?
5) What difference does it make who the Bishop is of the Moscow Patriarchate in America? The pont is its neither Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) nor Archbishop Hilarion (ROCOR), so we still have the problem of three Bishops of the same cities,  yet only one Patriarch (of Moscow) is commemorated the the dyptich of Constantinople
My guess is that you didn't, because you were to eager to please Irish Hermit and bash the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
As I said to you earlier on the thread, perhaps you just have a better Patriarch than I do, so lets drop it huh?
And to quote your own very wise words to ytterbiaumanalist and PetertheAleut earlier in this thread, perhaps you and Irish Hermit should consider the option of:
Can you two get a room....
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 11:39:04 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #531 on: March 06, 2010, 11:43:08 AM »

1) Why did you not question your Irish Hermit's claim that ROCOR is now "canonical"

Isn't it just a bit icky for you to speak of me to Isa as "your Irish Hermit."   Let's straighten up here, George.  Can you rip open a tinny with your front teeth?  They say that's the test of an aussie man.   :D

Offline augustin717

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #532 on: March 06, 2010, 12:35:15 PM »
Quote
Your EP, however, has not only his Greek bishops, but others on an ethnic basis over the same territory in North America.]Your EP, however, has not only his Greek bishops, but others on an ethnic basis over the same territory in North America.
You accuse the Ecumenical Patriarchate of the exact same thing the OCA is doing: don't they have Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanian non-geographical dioceses?  Besides the "real American" ones, of course.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:35:46 PM by augustin717 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #533 on: March 06, 2010, 12:55:02 PM »

 ROCOR parishes as of yet are not required to commemorate Pat. Kyril in addition to Met. Hilarion.


From discussions on rocorclergy, our clergy list on Yahoo, we have established that none of our priests are not commemorating Patriarch Kirill.   There may be one or two hold-outs but we would probably know of them if there were.

Thus confirming the wisdom of Pat. Alexei (of blessed memory)'s economy in not requiring it of the ROCOR clergy, and instead of high handed, in your face, imposition of his canonical rights (unlike some's broadcasting of their alleged rights  ::)), forebearance to let them come of their own volition.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #534 on: March 06, 2010, 01:08:41 PM »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #535 on: March 06, 2010, 01:18:11 PM »
Quote
Your EP, however, has not only his Greek bishops, but others on an ethnic basis over the same territory in North America.]Your EP, however, has not only his Greek bishops, but others on an ethnic basis over the same territory in North America.
You accuse the Ecumenical Patriarchate of the exact same thing the OCA is doing: don't they have Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanian non-geographical dioceses?  

No. Bishop Nikon is bishop of Boston and New England, Bishop Melchizedek has succeeded Bishop Kyrill as bishop of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania (I was priviledged to be there for his consecration in his cathedral) while Met. Jonah is now serving as locum tenens for the Bulgarians, and Bishop Nathaniel is bishop of Detroit.  Above and beyond their sees, they do oversee Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanians elsewhere.  For one thing, they approve the liturgical texts for Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanian.

Quote
Besides the "real American" ones, of course.

I've only been to Romanian Churches.  Besides the Holy Dormition monastery, I don't recall a word of English.  But then, they don't speak English at the coffee hour either, except to say "Hello!  How are you?"

Btw, the set up the OCA has with its ethnics is akin to what canon 28 of Chalcedon is really talking about.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #536 on: March 06, 2010, 01:38:44 PM »
So, what does this all have to do with abortion?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #537 on: March 06, 2010, 01:44:21 PM »
So, what does this all have to do with abortion?
Nufin.
But it cant be helped, since we have a broken record by a has-been band (see above).
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #538 on: March 06, 2010, 01:46:14 PM »
So, what does this all have to do with abortion?
Nufin.
But it cant be helped, since we have a broken record by a has-been band (see above).
Yes, I see. ::)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodoxy and Abortion
« Reply #539 on: March 06, 2010, 04:45:33 PM »
So, what does this all have to do with abortion?
Nufin.
But it cant be helped, since we have a broken record by a has-been band (see above).
LOL....Phanar....EP....LOL....Constantinople....supra-jurisdiction.....has-been.....LOL......

Rich
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth