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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 54097 times) Average Rating: 1
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #450 on: March 05, 2010, 09:17:34 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
Why are you so sure that is a picture of me?

Is it a politician?  Are you making a political statement?
St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, but not of Northern Ireland. Are you making a political statement?

Saint Patrick is a red herring
Yep. So is my avatar.

Quote
and if you are a Profesor Emeritus I don't think you would have tolerated such a trick from any of your students.
I'm not; I just play one on Internet forums. But I am a teacher, yes.

Quote
You don't plan to tell us who your avatar is?
I don't see how it has the slightest relevance to the discussion at hand.

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?
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« Reply #451 on: March 05, 2010, 09:19:06 PM »

Look! A purple demon!
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #452 on: March 05, 2010, 09:22:42 PM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #453 on: March 05, 2010, 09:28:21 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.

No need for any interpretation.  The meaning was crystal clear.   The inversion of verb and subject is a sign of a question...

Have you read...

Are you writing to them...

Again, you completely missed the point.

Not half as important as the point you are missing - your declared indifference to the issue of the killing of unborn children.
You seem to interpret my indifference to the issue of abortion as indifference to abortion. Poor interpretation, indeed.

Professor,

The distinction is too fine for me, as if I were to say,  do not interpret my indifference to the issue of prostitution as indifference to prostitution.
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« Reply #454 on: March 05, 2010, 09:29:50 PM »

Look! A purple demon!


Try Holy Water on it.
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Punch
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« Reply #455 on: March 05, 2010, 09:54:48 PM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

Well, if you don't know who he is, how could it possibly be a political statement?  Or, is any reference to Freedom political?  Just asking since the thread took such a turn that I almost derailed reading it.
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« Reply #456 on: March 05, 2010, 10:05:36 PM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

Well, if you don't know who he is, how could it possibly be a political statement?  Or, is any reference to Freedom political?  Just asking since the thread took such a turn that I almost derailed reading it.

Well, when you see a man labelled as "The new face of freedom" odds are that is either a religious or political statement.  I cannot imagine that the Professor is touting a religious figure in a suit on an Orthodox list so it is likely to be a political figure.  I suppose it could be a geneticist offering us freedom from disease?

So, what is being advertised....  religion, politics, medicine...?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 10:06:33 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #457 on: March 05, 2010, 10:13:46 PM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

Well, if you don't know who he is, how could it possibly be a political statement?  Or, is any reference to Freedom political?  Just asking since the thread took such a turn that I almost derailed reading it.

It has kind of derailed and that is why I tried to get it back on track with the question about abortion and the Greek Church.  With the population of Greece being 97% Orthodox, it should be a coherent social entity to study on such issues.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 10:18:07 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #458 on: March 05, 2010, 10:16:00 PM »

What statement "did" His all Holiness make which you interpret as "at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation"?

"We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.”

What this has to do with American politicians is beyond me.
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« Reply #459 on: March 05, 2010, 11:18:02 PM »

St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, but not of Northern Ireland. Are you making a political statement?

Dear Professor,

Forgive me for correcting you.

Saint Patrick is indeed the patron Saint of Northern Island.  His day of commemoration on 17th March is kept in Northern Island as their National Day (along with the Battle of the Boyne later in July.)  In Northern Ireland Saint Patrick's day is a public holiday.

Saint Patrick's flag is incorporated into the Union Jack - the common flag for the United Kingdom.  The Union Jack is also used by quite a few Commonwealth countries and will be seen in the top left corner of their own flags.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 11:23:11 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #460 on: March 05, 2010, 11:50:45 PM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

I'm back on the rails.

Well, if you don't know who he is, how could it possibly be a political statement?  Or, is any reference to Freedom political?  Just asking since the thread took such a turn that I almost derailed reading it.

Well, when you see a man labelled as "The new face of freedom" odds are that is either a religious or political statement.  I cannot imagine that the Professor is touting a religious figure in a suit on an Orthodox list so it is likely to be a political figure.  I suppose it could be a geneticist offering us freedom from disease?

So, what is being advertised....  religion, politics, medicine...?
Smiley

OK, I understand.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 11:51:52 PM by Punch » Logged

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« Reply #461 on: March 05, 2010, 11:52:49 PM »


I agree. It's not a matter of who answers to who, it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children. What father refuses to clarify when he says something that causes confusion and distress to his children...especially when it appears to be the exact opposite of what he supposedly believes?
This is part of the principle of conciliarity whch animates our Church.   But such attitudes as are implicit in a question such as "Does the Patriarch answer to you?" are infused with a more Western principle of authority and subordinationism the Church - in other words who's the boss and why should he be accountable to the plebs?   Ecclesia docens versus the Ecclesia Discens.
How do you expect that your interpretation of His All Holiness is correct when you can't even interpret ME correctly?  You presume so much to analyze what I just said and to know my mind that you end up putting words into my mouth.  It takes a lot of work to read between the lines of a one-liner.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:16:12 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #462 on: March 05, 2010, 11:54:31 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Honestly, George, I couldn't care less what His All Holiness has to say about abortion.  I just don't like how some here want to drag him through the mud because he won't say what they want him to say.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:05:10 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #463 on: March 06, 2010, 12:12:39 AM »

I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced.

What accusations you bring aganst me!  Have you read the various articles presented here, from senior Orthodox clergy and from various Orthodox magazines.  Are you writing to them to help them to see their prejudice and their false interpretation of the words of HDAH.   It is from these sources that we know the views of HDAH, not from me.   I am nothing more than a minnow.  Go after the big boys, the archpriests and the magazine editors.  They are the sources of what you see as prejudice and false interpretation.
Trying to absolve yourself of all responsibility for what you have done on this thread?  "Don't blame me!  I'm just the messenger!"  Why do you choose to be the messenger?  Why did you choose these articles?  As an appeal to "authority" to show us that your interpretation of the EP's words is correct?  In the end, it's still your interpretation of Patriarch Bartholomew's words you're advancing in some attempt to portray His All Holiness as a pro-choice patriarch and thus justify your feigned (self)-righteous indignation.
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« Reply #464 on: March 06, 2010, 12:17:53 AM »

If the EP's wife had an abortion would this be between them and their bedroom? That is what his statement implied.
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« Reply #465 on: March 06, 2010, 12:17:53 AM »

Quote
Grecian Abortion Rate Has Left 150K Couples Unable To Have Children

5/3/02

Thessaloniki, Greece -- The first position in abortions, comparatively speaking, both in relation to European countries and to the US, is held by Greece. The large number of abortions, which take place both before and during a marriage, and which can cause serious complications, are the main reason for the high percentage of under-fertility in Greece.

According to specialists, abortions are responsible for a 40% decrease in a woman's fertility. It is estimated that 150,000 couples in Greece cannot have children, because they have at least one abortion in their past.

More than 250,000 abortions take place every year in Greece, of which 40,000 are on underage girls younger than 16. Also, a third of them are performed on married women who would avoid them if they could afford a larger family.

This information was announced by Gynecology Professor of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Ioannis Bodis, speaking at the 2nd day of the 17th Northern Greece Medical Conference, organized by the Thessaloniki Medical Company.

In the 1980-1999 periods, stressed Mr. Bodis, Greece exhibited a decrease of 41% in fertility, twice as much (in percentage) as in the rest of Europe, while the US showed an increase in the fertility factor of 14%.

13% of Greeks have had an abortion:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-greece.html

see 2004 stats. The abortion rate is increasing (before the data stopped being given of course).

For a peer reviewed study on the matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15938171


blame is placed on the laxity of the OC on the matter in several articles I read.
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« Reply #466 on: March 06, 2010, 12:19:25 AM »

If the EP's wife had an abortion would this be between them and their bedroom? That is what his statement implied.
Stupid analogy...  The EP will never be a married man.  A widower, maybe, but never married.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #467 on: March 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AM »

Quote
Grecian Abortion Rate Has Left 150K Couples Unable To Have Children

5/3/02

Thessaloniki, Greece -- The first position in abortions, comparatively speaking, both in relation to European countries and to the US, is held by Greece. The large number of abortions, which take place both before and during a marriage, and which can cause serious complications, are the main reason for the high percentage of under-fertility in Greece.

According to specialists, abortions are responsible for a 40% decrease in a woman's fertility. It is estimated that 150,000 couples in Greece cannot have children, because they have at least one abortion in their past.

More than 250,000 abortions take place every year in Greece, of which 40,000 are on underage girls younger than 16. Also, a third of them are performed on married women who would avoid them if they could afford a larger family.

This information was announced by Gynecology Professor of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Ioannis Bodis, speaking at the 2nd day of the 17th Northern Greece Medical Conference, organized by the Thessaloniki Medical Company.

In the 1980-1999 periods, stressed Mr. Bodis, Greece exhibited a decrease of 41% in fertility, twice as much (in percentage) as in the rest of Europe, while the US showed an increase in the fertility factor of 14%.

13% of Greeks have had an abortion:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-greece.html

see 2004 stats. The abortion rate is increasing (before the data stopped being given of course).

For a peer reviewed study on the matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15938171


blame is placed on the laxity of the OC on the matter in several articles I read.
Show us how these articles you've read place blame on the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #468 on: March 06, 2010, 01:34:04 AM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

Well, if you don't know who he is, how could it possibly be a political statement?  Or, is any reference to Freedom political?  Just asking since the thread took such a turn that I almost derailed reading it.

Well, when you see a man labelled as "The new face of freedom" odds are that is either a religious or political statement.  I cannot imagine that the Professor is touting a religious figure in a suit on an Orthodox list so it is likely to be a political figure.  I suppose it could be a geneticist offering us freedom from disease?

So, what is being advertised....  religion, politics, medicine...?
LOL.  I hope not banking, finance and ethics.
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« Reply #469 on: March 06, 2010, 01:37:38 AM »

Quote
Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
Do you think it is? How does that make you feel?

If you are promoting a political figure I would feel that forum members should not have to tolerate it in the public section of the Forum where political statements are not allowed.

I agree with this.

The man is Senator Chris Dodd of Connecticut.
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« Reply #470 on: March 06, 2010, 01:40:31 AM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?

Because the invariable second sentence to any bizarre policy statement he makes is "spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox." So even if we didn't claim him, HDAH is sure claiming us. I've been to the Phanar and there is nowhere near 300 million in it, let alone 300 million Orthodox.

So as long as the EP keeps spewing us out in his mouthfull, he can expect an earful from us.
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« Reply #471 on: March 06, 2010, 01:45:15 AM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley
Interesting how you choose to ignore concrete statements from the Phanar such as this, but latch on to editorial American political opinions about His All Holiness such as the one Irish Hermit posted from "Touchstone Magazine".

Interesting how HDAH can make concrete statements on things not under his jurisdiction, but can mumble only vague ramblings on moral issues with his jurisdiction.
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« Reply #472 on: March 06, 2010, 01:49:29 AM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
I submit that you are distressed not by the EP's words, but by your interpretation of the EP's words, which is filtered through your distrust of the EP.

As you like.  But you are whistling in the dark.  You may like to consider how and when I came to distrust the EP.  Was it before or after his reported pro-choice position?
The Patriarch is neither pro-life nor pro-choice. Those terms apply to the legality of abortion in the United States, and as the EP is not an American, it's not an issue in which he needs to be involved. This is another example of your reading into his statements things that aren't there.
Ah, but he wants to: his metropolitans here claiming jurisdiction are, per his order, supposed to cough up property and register it in the name of the EP, to give him legal personality.
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« Reply #473 on: March 06, 2010, 01:50:56 AM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.
Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues. I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced. I think I've had at least a mild degree of success to that end.
Exactly the reason I'm here on this thread, as well.  I was just about to say this, but Mr. Y said it so eloquently I don't want to be redundant.
LOL.  Can you two get a room....
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #474 on: March 06, 2010, 02:05:04 AM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley
Interesting how you choose to ignore concrete statements from the Phanar such as this, but latch on to editorial American political opinions about His All Holiness such as the one Irish Hermit posted from "Touchstone Magazine".

Interesting how HDAH can make concrete statements on things not under his jurisdiction, but can mumble only vague ramblings on moral issues with his jurisdiction.
I guess you just have a better Patriarch than I do. So can we drop this now?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 02:05:29 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #475 on: March 06, 2010, 02:28:40 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm
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« Reply #476 on: March 06, 2010, 02:52:37 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm


I was with him until the last paragraph.

Selam
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« Reply #477 on: March 06, 2010, 02:56:51 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm


I was with him until the last paragraph.

Selam
So you don't think the faithful should see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem? Why not?
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« Reply #478 on: March 06, 2010, 03:20:23 AM »


How do you expect that your interpretation of His All Holiness is correct when you can't even interpret ME correctly?

Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew?   I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church, as well as that of some not unserious Orthodox religious commentators.  So you're barking up the wrong tree by concentrating on the worm of a monk Ambrose and accusing him of silly interpretations.  I am nothing but a worm and a minnow.   Go after the archpriests and the religious writers who have been referenced in this thread.....  Leave me to my lenten bread and water.

And, if you can, make reference to the articles which must have been written in horrified reaction to the erroneous interpretation of the archpriests and the various articles.  There ought to be a large number of rebuttals which proclaim the orthodoxy of the position of His Divine All-Holiness on abortion.

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« Reply #479 on: March 06, 2010, 03:29:40 AM »


How do you expect that your interpretation of His All Holiness is correct when you can't even interpret ME correctly?

Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew? 
No. You are misinterpreting him, and I dare say you are doing so deliberately.

I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church
And you are deliberately ignoring what one of the Oecumenical Patriarchates own Archbishops said (quoted above). So it is quite clear your agenda has nothing to do with the moral issue of abortion, and everything to do with your disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #480 on: March 06, 2010, 03:35:04 AM »

Trying to absolve yourself of all responsibility for what you have done on this thread?  "Don't blame me!  I'm just the messenger!"  Why do you choose to be the messenger? 

Actually, this question of abortion was raised by Alveus in the thread from which you have taken the posts and reinvigorated this thread.  One or two people replied to Alveus and so did I.


Quote
Why did you choose these articles?

Actually, it was Michal of Poland who first provided two of the articles which referenced the one from OCL.  I added information on the OCL article and I then provided one from Estocin. 

If I or anybody locates a clarification or a denial from Patriarch Bartholomew, I would be more than delighted to see it.   But as we have been told by two archpriests (one of them from his own Church) requests to the GOA and to the Phanar have met with no response.

Quote
As an appeal to "authority" to show us that your interpretation of the EP's words is correct?  In the end, it's still your interpretation of Patriarch Bartholomew's words you're advancing in some attempt to portray His All Holiness as a pro-choice patriarch and thus justify your feigned (self)-righteous indignation.

Nothing feigned about it.  I have a great hatred of abortion.  It frequently impinges on the work of every priest.
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« Reply #481 on: March 06, 2010, 03:37:49 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm


I was with him until the last paragraph.

Selam
So you don't think the faithful should see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem? Why not?

IMHO, the Archbishop did an excellent job clarifying the sanctity of unborn life and describing the callousness and ease with which our culture discards such innocent and defenseless children in the womb. So I was a bit disheartened when he ended such a forceful statement with words that seem tainted with moral relativism. You see, regardless of "each specific case," the sanctity of the unborn child remains the same. But the archbishop went from the "sacredness of the unborn child" to the "sacredness of the problem." So, it could possibly be interpreted that the deliberate murder of an unbron child is sometimes morally justified. I also do not believe that the "opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor" can ever negate the clear apostolic prohibitions against murdering the unborn child. So, that's my concern, FWIW.

Selam
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« Reply #482 on: March 06, 2010, 03:43:05 AM »

Today's holocaust
Abortion the indescribable calamity!


By His Grace Bishop Joseph of Arianzos [of the Second Archdiocesan District Melbourne]


This Icon is a work of the iconographer Mr. Kostas Vrousgos from Thessaloniki and was painted in Adelaide, South Australia, with the blessing of Bishop Joseph of Arianzos. It was published in thousands of copies. His Grace wrote the following text about abortion and the Icon, printed on the reverse side of the Icon.

"The All-Holy God is the fountain of life. Life belongs to him. His love provides life to all living organisms and especially to man, whom He created in His own image and likeness. We live and exist because of the overflowing love of God. As in this sacred overflowing love of God which is life, every person has a right which cannot be taken away. The Son and Word of God became human, was crucified and was resurrected so that all "may have life and abundantly they may have" (John 10:10). God's gift of life is inviolable and murder is forbidden by the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Church (Holy Fathers, Synods and Canons). He who takes away life opposes the work of the Life-giving Lord and joins with the devil, who "was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44).

Human life begins from the moment of conception and fertilisation. The Church believes this, and so does contemporary medicine (Panhellenic Medical Conference 1985). Furthermore the science of embryology, with the assistance of ultrasound and of other admirable technological means which are available, proved that the unborn baby is "certainly a new human being, a new member of human society, inseparable from each and every one of us in any way" (Dr Bernard Nathanson). Therefore, from the moment of conception, the violation of life at whatever stage is murder! As much as the killing of an adult or an adolescent is murder, so much so is the killing of a foetus by abortion at any stage of pregnancy. It is the cowardly murder of an innocent and completely unprotected human being, which has no possibility whatsoever to defend or protect itself.

Despite all these, the various human passions and especially sensuality, hard-heartedness, superficiality and indifference, very often lead to abortion as a "solution" of some "unwanted" or otherwise problematic pregnancy! Nevertheless, this is no solution. It is a manifestation of rage of the above-mentioned fathomless passions, which characterise the souls which are found outside the life of the Church and the fear of God.

I believe that this most beautiful Icon by the talented Iconographer Mr Costas Vrousgos, very clearly expresses all the Church wants to say to Her children about the dreadful subject, the indescribable calamity of abortion, the contemporary baby-killer Herod. The Iconographer's ability to blend colours, being led by the Spirit of Truth, presents the causes of evil, the murderers of innocent babes, the sadness of the Life-giving Christ, the solution and need for repentance of the mother, the equally responsible and unloving father and perjurer murderer-doctor, and to anyone else associated with the crime. The testimonial cross of the unmarried mother who prefers the cost of social shame rather than the killing of her child. The blessing of the Christian family. The eternal prototype of the mother of God, the all-honoured person of the breast-feeding Mother of the Blessed One. No other comment is needed".



« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:51:53 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #483 on: March 06, 2010, 03:48:10 AM »


How do you expect that your interpretation of His All Holiness is correct when you can't even interpret ME correctly?

Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew?   I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church, as well as that of some not unserious Orthodox religious commentators.  So you're barking up the wrong tree by concentrating on the worm of a monk Ambrose and accusing him of silly interpretations.  I am nothing but a worm and a minnow.
Well, it's obvious you share their interpretation, which makes that interpretation now yours.  Either that, or they share your interpretation.  Which is it?

Go after the archpriests and the religious writers who have been referenced in this thread.....  Leave me to my lenten bread and water.
There's one very simple way to keep people from scrutinizing your posts, Fr. Ambrose.  Don't submit them.
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« Reply #484 on: March 06, 2010, 03:49:37 AM »

Trying to absolve yourself of all responsibility for what you have done on this thread?  "Don't blame me!  I'm just the messenger!"  Why do you choose to be the messenger? 

Actually, this question of abortion was raised by Alveus in the thread from which you have taken the posts and reinvigorated this thread.  One or two people replied to Alveus and so did I.
Yes, YOU did. Wink
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« Reply #485 on: March 06, 2010, 03:49:59 AM »


How do you expect that your interpretation of His All Holiness is correct when you can't even interpret ME correctly?

Am I interpreting HDAH Bartholomew?   I have accepted the interpretation of senior clergy including a noted priest of his own Church, as well as that of some not unserious Orthodox religious commentators.  So you're barking up the wrong tree by concentrating on the worm of a monk Ambrose and accusing him of silly interpretations.  I am nothing but a worm and a minnow.   Go after the archpriests and the religious writers who have been referenced in this thread.....  Leave me to my lenten bread and water.

And, if you can, make reference to the articles which must have been written in horrified reaction to the erroneous interpretation of the archpriests and the various articles.  There ought to be a large number of rebuttals which proclaim the orthodoxy of the position of His Divine All-Holiness on abortion.




I love this Icon! First time I've seen it. Wow.


Selam
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« Reply #486 on: March 06, 2010, 03:51:32 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm


I was with him until the last paragraph.

Selam
So you don't think the faithful should see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem? Why not?

IMHO, the Archbishop did an excellent job clarifying the sanctity of unborn life and describing the callousness and ease with which our culture discards such innocent and defenseless children in the womb. So I was a bit disheartened when he ended such a forceful statement with words that seem tainted with moral relativism. You see, regardless of "each specific case," the sanctity of the unborn child remains the same. But the archbishop went from the "sacredness of the unborn child" to the "sacredness of the problem." So, it could possibly be interpreted that the deliberate murder of an unbron child is sometimes morally justified. I also do not believe that the "opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor" can ever negate the clear apostolic prohibitions against murdering the unborn child. So, that's my concern, FWIW.

Selam
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't read it that way though. As I read it, the Archbishop  begins by reminding us of our responsibility for the "bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings" and then extends it to include "human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest", and calls the wanton destruction of this life "criminality" and condemns "the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth." He reminds us that all Life comes from God, and therefore anyone who procures an abortion ("to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy") entangles them "in a profound mystery"- that is, they are not just messing with Life, they are messing with God. This is the "sacredness of the problem" the Archbishop is referring to when he concludes :"I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem." Thats how I see it anyway.
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« Reply #487 on: March 06, 2010, 03:56:46 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I do not refer to the daily actions at the expense of the bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings or of ourselves, for which we are certainly responsible before God.
I mean rather the hardness and criminality against human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest.
I mean the question of mass abortions which is silently turning our contemporary - supposedly Christian, or at least humanitarian - societies into a field of invisible slaughter without anyone condemning publicly the numbers of victims and magnitude of this cruelty.
Official statistics given by the relevant state authorities claim that in New South Wales alone, during the year 1988-89 31,351 abortions took place. Of these, only 1% were necessitated by medical opinion owing to the immediate danger of the pregnant woman.
These numbers constitute a terrible sign of our behaviour in the most sacred matter in which God calls us to become His close collaborators. However, it unfortunately appears that the issue of abortion in contemporary societies has almost become a matter of routine, without any moral problematic. Otherwise one cannot explain the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth.
We must therefore remember that whatever the reason leading couples to decide to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy, the good of life and of existence lies totally in God's hands, and we must know that any intervention entangles us in a profound mystery.
Our Church, as in all similar moral issues, does not respond with a blind answer of "yes" or "no". The first thing it says is "Stand well!" This means: "Be careful!" And when in this way one realises that one is dealing with a question of life or death - not only of physical death, but also spiritual - then one is in a position to weigh up in the fear of God both the opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor.
I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem.

With paternal love in the Lord

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/livinganorthodoxlife/modernissuesandthechurchsview/abortion

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion1.htm


I was with him until the last paragraph.

Selam
So you don't think the faithful should see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem? Why not?

IMHO, the Archbishop did an excellent job clarifying the sanctity of unborn life and describing the callousness and ease with which our culture discards such innocent and defenseless children in the womb. So I was a bit disheartened when he ended such a forceful statement with words that seem tainted with moral relativism. You see, regardless of "each specific case," the sanctity of the unborn child remains the same. But the archbishop went from the "sacredness of the unborn child" to the "sacredness of the problem." So, it could possibly be interpreted that the deliberate murder of an unbron child is sometimes morally justified. I also do not believe that the "opinion of responsible science and the advice of the spiritual confessor" can ever negate the clear apostolic prohibitions against murdering the unborn child. So, that's my concern, FWIW.

Selam
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't read it that way though. As I read it, the Archbishop  begins by reminding us of our responsibility for the "bodily and spiritual health of our fellow human beings" and then extends it to include "human life in its still embryonic state, unable to defend itself or protest", and calls the wanton destruction of this life "criminality" and condemns "the ease with which one decides about an abortion today, just as one decides to extract a tooth." He reminds us that all Life comes from God, and therefore anyone who procures an abortion ("to cease in a violent manner an undesired pregnancy") entangles them "in a profound mystery"- that is, they are not just messing with Life, they are messing with God. This is the "sacredness of the problem" the Archbishop is referring to when he concludes :"I wish and pray fervently that our faithful may see this tremendous moral subject with renewed responsibility and act in each specific case according to the sacredness of the problem." Thats how I see it anyway.

Yes, it's a good statement. I just know that it's human nature to find a loophole in anything. Thank you so much for posting it though.


Selam
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« Reply #488 on: March 06, 2010, 03:58:21 AM »

If, perchance, anyone is genuinely interested in what the Oecumenical Patriarchate teaches about abortion (though given the tone of the posters thread, thats pretty unlikely), here is what my own Archbishop Stylianos (Oecumenical Patriarchate, GO Archdiocese of Australia) has written:

Dearly beloved,

With this letter, I wish to address in particular the sensitivity and charity of all the faithful of our Archdiocese in order to remind the sacredness of human life, which apparently we have not yet taken as seriously as we should.
I


George, thank you for posting this.  Marvellous.   His Eminence needs praising.  It is just as strong as the statement from His Grace Bishop Joseph (Harliolakis) who was at the time one of the bishops of Archbp Stylianos serving in the Second District but for some reason His Grace was in disfavour for his anti-abortion article and for his suppoert of the propagation of the anti-abortion icon (painted in Australia.)

However I note the words of Gebre Menfes Kidus and his concerns for the "let-out" clauses in the letter.  No doubt people will now pile on him for his "interpretation" but I share his concern.
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« Reply #489 on: March 06, 2010, 03:58:34 AM »

By His Grace Bishop Joseph of Arianzos [of the Second Archdiocesan District Melbourne]

Gosh Irish Hermit, yet another Bishop of the Oecumenical Patriarchate seems not to have interpreted His All Holiness the Oecumenical Patriarch the way you seem to. Perhaps you were wrong in your interpretation? I hope so. I hate the thought of you weeping over what you thought the Oecumenical Patriarch's position is:

You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?

And yes. I'm being sarcastic.
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« Reply #490 on: March 06, 2010, 04:10:17 AM »

.....it is quite clear your agenda has nothing to do with the moral issue of abortion, and everything to do with your disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarch.

The latter was born from the former.  And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730

I think that too much attention is being focused on my person and not on the issue at hand.  Poor Gebre Menfes Kidus may start to feel the same glare of attention for his "interpretation" of the words of Archbishop Stylianos.
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« Reply #491 on: March 06, 2010, 04:21:37 AM »


Gosh Irish Hermit, yet another Bishop of the Oecumenical Patriarchate seems not to have interpreted His All Holiness the Oecumenical Patriarch the way you seem to.

Do you see any interpretation of the words of His Divine All-Holiness in Archbishop Stylianos' letter?  I see mo mention of the Patriarch let alone any interpretation of what the Patriarch has  said.   You are interpreting the letter wrongly. 

Archbp Stylianonos has never been known as marching in lockstep with Constantinople.  For example, you must be aware of his scathing attack on Patriarch Bartholomew for his role and participation in the ecumenical dialogue with Rome.  It's not the first time he has attacked his Patriarch quite aggressively.
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« Reply #492 on: March 06, 2010, 04:39:36 AM »

Archbp Stylianonos has never been known as marching in lockstep with Constantinople.  
Roll Eyes Yet more of "The World According to Irish Hermit".

And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"
You mean the "Bishop Emeritus" who cannot spell "discomforting"? That guy?
As per your request, I'll leave you now to your Lenten Bread and Water:
Leave me to my lenten bread and water.
Try not to weep too much either:
Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?


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« Reply #493 on: March 06, 2010, 04:51:41 AM »

And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"
You mean the "Bishop Emeritus" who cannot spell "discomforting"? That guy?

Yes, that is most unusual.  His Grace is pedantic about spelling and grammar and I cannot imagine how that slipped through.  His Grace uses one of those voice recognition programmes to write his e-mails and in this case I guess it slipped up and was not corrected manually by the bishop.

Do you see a spelling error from his software as invalidating what he is saying?
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« Reply #494 on: March 06, 2010, 04:53:55 AM »

.....it is quite clear your agenda has nothing to do with the moral issue of abortion, and everything to do with your disdain for the Oecumenical Patriarch.

The latter was born from the former.  And I am not alone; may I offer again the words of Bishop Emeritus Tikhon (FitzGerald.)

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
Please forgive me if I'm less than impressed by anything coming from the keyboard of the retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco.
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