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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 53917 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #405 on: March 05, 2010, 06:08:35 PM »

I am inclined to think it's accurate, based on his track record. I realize that is an assumption on my part, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.
Not unreasonable because it's your assumption? Wink

Based on his track record of unqualified glowing praise for pro-abortion politicians like Paul Sarbanes.
I've addressed that already on the Politics thread that runs parallel to this.  Before you bring politics into this discussion again, I recommend you read the Politics thread and submit your political comments there.  You can read the thread by following this link:  Patriarch Bartholomew and the Politics of Abortion  If you don't yet have access to the Private Forum, send Fr. Chris a PM requesting this access.  I will not discuss politics on this public thread, since doing so is a violation of forum policy, and I cannot permit you to discuss politics here, either.
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« Reply #406 on: March 05, 2010, 06:18:49 PM »


I agree. It's not a matter of who answers to who, it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children. What father refuses to clarify when he says something that causes confusion and distress to his children...especially when it appears to be the exact opposite of what he supposedly believes?

Bogdan,

Than you for these words.  They are illumined with the spirit of Orthodoxy which sees the relationship between a bishop and his flock as you describe it - a familiar and personalist one of interdependence and mutual respect, love, and accountability.

This is part of the principle of conciliarity whch animates our Church.   But such attitudes as are implicit in a question such as "Does the Patriarch answer to you?" are infused with a more Western principle of authority and subordinationism the Church - in other words who's the boss and why should he be accountable to the plebs?   Ecclesia docens versus the Ecclesia Discens.

I feared to touch the question when it was asked of me because I thought it would require days of messages and take us right off topic.  But you have answered it so well in just two sentences!!!   God bless you!
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« Reply #407 on: March 05, 2010, 06:22:10 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
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« Reply #408 on: March 05, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »

Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him? 
Frankly, no.
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« Reply #409 on: March 05, 2010, 06:26:13 PM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.

As far as I am aware HDAH Bartholomew claims often and insistently that all of us are his spiritual children, and in particular the Homogenia and the rest of the Diaspora.  

In his statement to the British High Court last year Bishop Basil Osborne (who had been in the Russian Church for 30 years) gave testimony that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the one and only canonical authority in Western Europe and the Russian, Serb and Antiochian Churches in W.Europe are uncanonical interlopers.

See Paragraph 37 and Paragraph 38
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2009/1250.html


See also the speech of the Secretary of the Sacred Synod Archimandrite Elpidiphoros  who was sent from Constantinople to Holy Cross seminary Boston in March last year to preach the Constantinople claims to the American Orthodox.  
 
"American Diaspora Must Submit to Mother Church"
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/03/ecumenical-patriarchate-american-diaspora-must-submit-to-mother-church/

So, he has indeed claimed us as his spiritual children.
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« Reply #410 on: March 05, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?

Do we know (or better, does it matter) if His All Holiness has spiritual children from when he was a Deacon, Priest, Bishop, Metropolitan?

Obviously, some posters are comfortable in saying that so and so is their spiritual father; however, I'm at least 3 degrees removed from the Ecumenical Patriarch and I can't say that I am his spiritual child, especially not by association and especially if I happen to share the same large space with His All Holiness like I have on two occasions.
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« Reply #411 on: March 05, 2010, 06:30:47 PM »

Well, I doubt he has a full entourage of transcribers and handlers, photographers and documentary filmmakers, but someone sets up his interviews for him and coordinates all this. I don't expect that he does it himself. If he does, I'll eat crow.

The GOA has 75 staff members.  I'm sure His All Holiness has an equivalent amount of staff from throughout the world both secular and clergy.  CBS can also collaborate with Turkish media networks because CBS has wide global reach.  How do you think CBS films The Amazing Race with so many international stops?

Edit to add web link for The Amazing Race
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« Reply #412 on: March 05, 2010, 06:33:31 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?

This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
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« Reply #413 on: March 05, 2010, 06:33:57 PM »

Are you not aware that HDAH Bartholomew claims often and insistently that all of us are his spiritual children, and in particular the Homogenia and the rest of the Diaspora. 

No. And I certainly doubt that he would touch your Church (ROCOR) with a barge pole. Your Archbishop is not even commemorated on the Diptych of Constantinople, so his "authority" as leader of a local Church is not recognised. If you really want to be a "spiritual child" of His All Holiness, then consider joining a Church under his jurisdiction.
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« Reply #414 on: March 05, 2010, 06:37:08 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley
Interesting how you choose to ignore concrete statements from the Phanar such as this, but latch on to editorial American political opinions about His All Holiness such as the one Irish Hermit posted from "Touchstone Magazine".
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« Reply #415 on: March 05, 2010, 06:38:25 PM »

So, he has indeed claimed us as his spiritual children.

Neither you nor I nor 99.99999% of Orthodox Christians was baptized by the Ecumenical Patriarch: (1 Corinthians 1:10-17, NKJV)

Quote
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that  you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household,  that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect

Verse 10 does not make anyone a spiritual child of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  Do we want to argue elsewhere that His All Holiness is a Sectarianist?

Quote
Sectarianism adds in worship or discipline those "acts" not necessary to Christian unity because they are not commanded in express words by the Holy Spirit. Men like Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Campbell and Alexander Campbell found that the basis for unity was fully defined by Locke when to do so was dangerous to your physical health.

So, is His All Holiness silence on abortion a sectarianist view because many of you are criticizing His All Holiness' silence on abortion?

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« Reply #416 on: March 05, 2010, 06:40:05 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?
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« Reply #417 on: March 05, 2010, 06:41:21 PM »

The Patriarch is neither pro-life nor pro-choice. Those terms apply to the legality of abortion in the United States, and as the EP is not an American, it's not an issue in which he needs to be involved. This is another example of your reading into his statements things that aren't there.

Given your rather urbane look in your avatar, I would not have expected this american-centrism.  The terms pro-life and pro-choice have entered into the vocabulary of many if not all nations around the world.

If you do not wish to use the term pro-choice of the Patriarch's position how would you describe it?
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« Reply #418 on: March 05, 2010, 06:48:14 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?

I posted a link on how MP/OCA/ROCOR Churches in the USA commemorate 2-3 Hierarchs in their Diptychs:

The MP and/or Bishop Job
Metropolitan Jonah (OCA)
Metropolian Hilarion (ROCOR)

Guess who the EP Commemorates in His Diptychs (hint, bolded text).  There's the point.   Smiley
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« Reply #419 on: March 05, 2010, 06:49:53 PM »

I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced.

What accusations you bring aganst me!  Have you read the various articles presented here, from senior Orthodox clergy and from various Orthodox magazines.  Are you writing to them to help them to see their prejudice and their false interpretation of the words of HDAH.   It is from these sources that we know the views of HDAH, not from me.   I am nothing more than a minnow.  Go after the big boys, the archpriests and the magazine editors.  They are the sources of what you see as prejudice and false interpretation.
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« Reply #420 on: March 05, 2010, 06:50:14 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?

I posted a link on how MP/OCA/ROCOR Churches in the USA commemorate 2-3 Hierarchs in their Diptychs:

The MP and/or Bishop Job
Metropolitan Jonah (OCA)
Metropolian Hilarion (ROCOR)

Guess who the EP Commemorates in His Diptychs (hint, bolded text).  There's the point.   Smiley

Why is this important to the issue of the EP's statements on abortion?
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« Reply #421 on: March 05, 2010, 07:00:28 PM »

Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues.
Exactly the reason I'm here on this thread, as well.  I was just about to say this, but Mr. Y said it so eloquently I don't want to be redundant.

Good grief!  Tears seem called for. To hear such statements from the Orthodox laity - it is something I never thought to ever hear!    While our children are being torn limb from limb in the womb (use Google image to see what beheaded and dismembered babies look like) people are declaring here that they don't care one way or the other, that these are not their issues.  Qui tacet consentit.
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« Reply #422 on: March 05, 2010, 07:01:00 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?
Its not my point Iconodule, it is a very clear point made by The Oecumenical Patriarchate, and that point is that your Church is not recognised as either an autocephalous or autonomous local Church by Constantinople, and neither is Irish Hermit's Church. Now, I know that you two disagree with this very clear statement of Constantinople, which is fine, but I have to wonder why it is that if you don't accept Constantinople's very clear opinion about the very Churches you are seeking your salvation in, why would a polticial opinion in the US about The Oecumenical Patriarchate concern you (ie whether Constantinople is politically "Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life" which as ytterbiumanalyst correctly pointed out, is not the way the Orthodox Church operates, but it is more the way the Vatican operates)? If you and Irish Hermit want to pressure your own Archbishops and Synods to make it clear which politician in the US they support and who people in the US should vote for, go right ahead, but why do you need Constantinople's opinion? Especially when Constantinople has made it clear that she does not recognise your Church as an autonomous or autocephalous local Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #423 on: March 05, 2010, 07:08:53 PM »

If His Holiness had made no statement about abortion at all, then I, for one, would not make an issue of it. The trouble is, he did make a statement which was, at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation, about an issue which is of great importance throughout the world and especially so in Orthodox countries. He has not clarified his statement. That is a problem.

And he is more than capable of clarifying statements when he is misquoted or misunderstood.

Last year the Catholic press reported that His Divine All-Holiness was recommending dual communion rights for Eastern Catholics in the Ukraine - they could receive communion in both their Catholic churches and in Orthodox churches.

Wthin a few days the Media Office of the Phanar issued a very strong statement denying Patriarch Bartholomew had recommended any such thing.
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« Reply #424 on: March 05, 2010, 07:12:48 PM »

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does, so it can't be that they aren't aware of any of this.
Evident from what?  Your own "reasonable" assumptions?

Refer to the way his Media Office promptly handled the double-communion issue for Eastern Catholics.  Bogdan is not assuming.  We know that the Patriarch has competent media staff.
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« Reply #425 on: March 05, 2010, 07:16:37 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?
Its not my point Iconodule, it is a very clear point made by The Oecumenical Patriarchate, and that point is that your Church is not recognised as either an autocephalous or autonomous local Church by Constantinople, and neither is Irish Hermit's Church. Now, I know that you two disagree with this very clear statement of Constantinople, which is fine, but I have to wonder why it is that if you don't accept Constantinople's very clear opinion about the very Churches you are seeking your salvation in, why would a polticial opinion in the US about The Oecumenical Patriarchate concern you (ie whether Constantinople is politically "Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life" which as ytterbiumanalyst correctly pointed out, is not the way the Orthodox Church operates, but it is more the way the Vatican operates)?

Ah, you are truly a master of the strawman argument. Where in this thread did I ever argue that I wanted the EP to support any US politicians or adopt an American-style "pro-life" agenda?
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« Reply #426 on: March 05, 2010, 07:18:39 PM »

And I repeat: of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Bogdan, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
This peculiar strawman argument has already been addressed a couple of times.
As with Irish Hermit, your Archbishop isn't recognised on the Diptych of Constantinople either. Smiley

What's your point?

I posted a link on how MP/OCA/ROCOR Churches in the USA commemorate 2-3 Hierarchs in their Diptychs:

The MP and/or Bishop Job
Metropolitan Jonah (OCA)
Metropolian Hilarion (ROCOR)

Guess who the EP Commemorates in His Diptychs (hint, bolded text).  There's the point.   Smiley

Why is this important to the issue of the EP's statements on abortion?

ozgeorge answered your question.   Smiley
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« Reply #427 on: March 05, 2010, 07:18:57 PM »

Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him? 
Frankly, no.


Well, you would be wrong.  I hang my head and shame and weep because this man claims to be the spiritual leader of 300 million people globally and he is accepted as such by the non-Orthodox world.  

George, if I remember correctly it was mentioned that you have contacts with bishops in the Phanar (and the Patriarch?) and have previously written and obtained replies on some topics.  Would you consider making enquiries on this issue?
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« Reply #428 on: March 05, 2010, 07:23:17 PM »

Ah, you are truly a master of the strawman argument. Where in this thread did I ever argue that I wanted the EP to support any US politicians or adopt an American-style "pro-life" agenda?

Lets look at your claim on this thread:

If His Holiness had made no statement about abortion at all, then I, for one, would not make an issue of it. The trouble is, he did make a statement which was, at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation, about an issue which is of great importance throughout the world and especially so in Orthodox countries. He has not clarified his statement. That is a problem.

What statement "did" His all Holiness make which you interpret as "at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation"?
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« Reply #429 on: March 05, 2010, 07:28:28 PM »

And I certainly doubt that he would touch your Church (ROCOR) with a barge pole. Your Archbishop is not even commemorated on the Diptych of Constantinople, so his "authority" as leader of a local Church is not recognised.

George,

I am surprised that you have made such a basic mistake.  You are always well clued up on ecclesiology.

If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.

Only the heads of autocephalous Churches are commemorated by the heads of other autocpehalopus Churches.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is not an autocephalous Church and not even an autonomous Church.  It has the lesser staus of a self-govenring Church within the Church of Russia.  Our Patriarch is the Patriarch of Moscow.  It is he who is commemorated in Constantinople's Diptychs.
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« Reply #430 on: March 05, 2010, 07:30:34 PM »

If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.
Of course it would. Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.
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« Reply #431 on: March 05, 2010, 07:42:57 PM »

, it is a very clear point made by The Oecumenical Patriarchate, and that point is that your Church is not recognised as either an autocephalous or autonomous local Church by Constantinople, and neither is Irish Hermit's Church.

You are not making sense.  The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is neither autocephalous nor autonomous and makes no such claims. It would be decidedly odd if Constantinople viewed us as either autocephalous or autonomous.  We are neither.   We are an integral part of the Moscow Patriarchate.  Our bishops from the West are full members of the Synod of the Church of Russia, and they participate and vote in all synodal meetings in Moscow.  Our bishops voted in the election of Patriarch Kirill.

The canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad is detailed in the
provisions which govern Self-Governing Churches of the Church of Russia.
Chapter VIII of the Ustav. See

http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/133132.html

Paragraph VIII has been amended to include the Russian Church Abroad:
http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/428872.html

(Encoding Unicode UTF-8)

These sites are in Russian.  I'll look for them in English.
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« Reply #432 on: March 05, 2010, 07:49:22 PM »

If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.
Of course it would. Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.

I really do not know who is supplying you with this misinformation but be it known that since May 2007 the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has been an integral part of the Patriarchate of Moscow.  If ROCA is uncanonical I guess that Moscow is uncanonical.

Act of Canonical Communion Signed in Moscow
http://www.pravmir.com/article_228.html
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« Reply #433 on: March 05, 2010, 07:55:28 PM »

If the Patriarch were to commemorate Metropolitan Hilarion in the Diptychs of Constantinople it would be a breach of canonical order.
Of course it would. Because "ROCOR" has an uncanonical status.

I really do not know who is supplying you with this misinformation but be it known that since May 2007 the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has been an integral part of the Patriarchate of Moscow.  If ROCA is uncanonical I guess that Moscow is uncanonical.

Act of Canonical Communion Signed in Moscow
http://www.pravmir.com/article_228.html
LOL!  Cheesy What a riot!
Lets look at facts Irish Hermit:
Certainly, there is a problem in geographical areas which do not have a long standing history of the Orthodox Church in that different jurisdictions have Bishops in the same area, but if this in itself is uncanonical, then it is more uncanonical that the same jurisdiction (Moscow Patriarchate) should have three different Bishops and three different local Churches in the same geographical area.

First we have  His Grace Iov, Bishop of Kashira, Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in Canada (and temporarily in the USA)
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?ln=en

Next we have His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America
http://www.oca.org/

Then we have His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm

I think we all have bigger things to worry about than a political editorial in the US.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:59:21 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #434 on: March 05, 2010, 08:01:31 PM »

[First we have  His Grace Iov, Bishop of Kashira, Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in Canada (and temporarily in the USA)
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?ln=en

Next we have His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America
http://www.oca.org/

Then we have His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm

I think you have bigger things to worry about than a political editorial in the US.

I am not worried.  These matters are already under discussion.  We have already seen how 3 years ago the Russian Church Abroad was folded back into the Church of Russia.  More changes will occur.  One other great hope is the reintegration of the Russian Exarchate in Europe (currently under Constantinople) into the Church of Russia.

Let's get back to Orthodoxy and abortion.   You would have knowledge of the Greek situation.  What is the percentage of abortions to live births among the Greek Orthodox?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 08:06:06 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #435 on: March 05, 2010, 08:44:53 PM »

The Patriarch is neither pro-life nor pro-choice. Those terms apply to the legality of abortion in the United States, and as the EP is not an American, it's not an issue in which he needs to be involved. This is another example of your reading into his statements things that aren't there.
Given your rather urbane look in your avatar, I would not have expected this american-centrism.  The terms pro-life and pro-choice have entered into the vocabulary of many if not all nations around the world.
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.

If you do not wish to use the term pro-choice of the Patriarch's position how would you describe it?
Pastoral.

I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced.
What accusations you bring aganst me!  Have you read the various articles presented here, from senior Orthodox clergy and from various Orthodox magazines.  Are you writing to them to help them to see their prejudice and their false interpretation of the words of HDAH.
First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question. Secondly, like I said, this is not my issue. I don't care at all what the EP has to say about abortion or anything else for that matter. If it distresses you, you should find out from the authors and from the EP what was meant, rather than making accusations on the Internet.

Quote
It is from these sources that we know the views of HDAH, not from me.   I am nothing more than a minnow.  Go after the big boys, the archpriests and the magazine editors.  They are the sources of what you see as prejudice and false interpretation.
Yes, it's not your words, it's God's. It's all in the Bible.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 08:50:22 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #436 on: March 05, 2010, 08:45:43 PM »

What is the percentage of abortions to live births among the Greek Orthodox?
Firstly- why would I know that?
Secondly- what constitutes someone being "Greek Orthodox"? Do we count the unchurched and unliturgised?

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« Reply #437 on: March 05, 2010, 08:49:37 PM »

What is the percentage of abortions to live births among the Greek Orthodox?
Firstly- why would I know that?
Secondly- what constitutes someone being "Greek Orthodox"? Do we count the unchurched and unliturgised?

I see from various sources that the Greek Orthodox Church claims 97% of the population.   Surely there must be studies of the abortion rate among them?
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« Reply #438 on: March 05, 2010, 08:52:18 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
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« Reply #439 on: March 05, 2010, 08:55:07 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.
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« Reply #440 on: March 05, 2010, 09:02:27 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
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« Reply #441 on: March 05, 2010, 09:04:22 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
Why are you so sure that is a picture of me?
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« Reply #442 on: March 05, 2010, 09:05:33 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.

No need for any interpretation.  The meaning was crystal clear.   The inversion of verb and subject is a sign of a question...

Have you read...

Are you writing to them...
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« Reply #443 on: March 05, 2010, 09:06:41 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
Why are you so sure that is a picture of me?

Is it a politician?  Are you making a political statement?
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« Reply #444 on: March 05, 2010, 09:07:02 PM »

What is the percentage of abortions to live births among the Greek Orthodox?
Firstly- why would I know that?
Secondly- what constitutes someone being "Greek Orthodox"? Do we count the unchurched and unliturgised?

I see from various sources that the Greek Orthodox Church claims 97% of the population.   Surely there must be studies of the abortion rate among them?
I thought your interest was what the Church teaches, not political demographics. If someone is barred from Communion (as indeed a woman who procures an abortion is) are they "Greek Orthodox" in good standing?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:07:21 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #445 on: March 05, 2010, 09:07:34 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.

No need for any interpretation.  The meaning was crystal clear.   The inversion of verb and subject is a sign of a question...

Have you read...

Are you writing to them...

Again, you completely missed the point.
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« Reply #446 on: March 05, 2010, 09:09:31 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
Why are you so sure that is a picture of me?

Is it a politician?  Are you making a political statement?
St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, but not of Northern Ireland. Are you making a political statement?
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« Reply #447 on: March 05, 2010, 09:10:03 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective.  
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.

No need for any interpretation.  The meaning was crystal clear.   The inversion of verb and subject is a sign of a question...

Have you read...

Are you writing to them...

Again, you completely missed the point.

Not half as important as the point you are missing - with your declared indifference to the issue of the killing of unborn children.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:10:39 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #448 on: March 05, 2010, 09:11:34 PM »

First of all, this (?) is a question mark. One uses this strange squiggle when one wants to ask a question.

Ah, but you knew the two sentences were questions.  Communication was effective. 
Ah, so what you wrote was intended to be interpreted. You expected me to look at the words I was reading in light of the context to determine a reasonable meaning behind them. I see.

No need for any interpretation.  The meaning was crystal clear.   The inversion of verb and subject is a sign of a question...

Have you read...

Are you writing to them...

Again, you completely missed the point.

Not half as important as the point you are missing - your declared indifference to the issue of the killing of unborn children.
You seem to interpret my indifference to the issue of abortion as indifference to abortion. Poor interpretation, indeed.
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« Reply #449 on: March 05, 2010, 09:15:13 PM »


Given your rather urbane look in your avatar...
That's interesting, because you look rather two-dimensional in yours.


ytterbiumanalyst,

Why do you see yourself as "The new face of freedom"?  Is that a religious statement?  Or a political one?
Why are you so sure that is a picture of me?

Is it a politician?  Are you making a political statement?
St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, but not of Northern Ireland. Are you making a political statement?

Saint Patrick is a red herring and if you are a Profesor Emeritus I don't think you would have tolerated such a trick from any of your students.

You don't plan to tell us who your avatar is?

Do we understand it is not a politrical statement?
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