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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 57147 times) Average Rating: 1
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #360 on: March 05, 2010, 12:03:06 AM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
I submit that you are distressed not by the EP's words, but by your interpretation of the EP's words, which is filtered through your distrust of the EP.

As you like.  But you are whistling in the dark.  You may like to consider how and when I came to distrust the EP.  Was it before or after his reported pro-choice position?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:06:16 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #361 on: March 05, 2010, 12:53:12 AM »

I see that in 1999 Touchstone magazine ran an article on what it calls the "numbing moral silence"  of the Ecumenical Patriarch in neglecting pro-life issues.

"Constantinople's Moral Oversight"
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Extract:

" I suggest that it is time for Orthodox Christians in America to begin questioning the pastoral leadership of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with respect to its stewardship of Orthodox Christian Tradition in America. Put simply: the Ecumenical Patriarchate has severely neglected, and continues to neglect, pro-life and other pivotal social issues in its American ministry.
 
"This neglect is readily noticeable if one compares the relative silence of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America on pro-life issues with the active involvement of other Orthodox hierarchies in this country.
 
" Consider, for example, the amicus curiae brief (click to view) filed on February 21, 1989, on behalf of Orthodox Christians in America in the famous Webster case before the Supreme Court (also printed in Touchstone, Spring 1992, pp 15-20). This was arguably the strongest and clearest statement on the evil of abortion to come from Orthodox auspices in America.

"Yet Bishop (now Metropolitan) Maximos of Pittsburgh was the only Greek Orthodox bishop among the many signers of that document, in contrast to the unanimous signatures of the ranking hierarchs from the Russian (OCA, ROCOR), Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and Romanian jurisdictions.
 
"A full half of the Orthodox in America belong to the Greek Orthodox archdiocese, whose spiritual leaders were--with the exception of one bishop--completely silent on that solemn occasion."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:53:48 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #362 on: March 05, 2010, 01:02:10 AM »

You keep dodging my question, Fr. Ambrose.  How do you know that you have interpreted His All Holiness's words correctly?

It's not a worthwhile question to attempt to answer.
But since you're basing your whole response to the EP's words on your interpretation of what he said, the question of whether your interpretation is correct is crucial to this discussion, which therefore makes your answer necessary.

We have had, for example, newspaper reports that Metropolitan Hilarion accepts the validity and efficaciousness of Roman Catholic sacraments and considers them on a par with Orthodox sacraments.   No forum member has raised similar points about the articles and contested them.
I don't see how that's relevant.

If it bothers you that some of us think that the Patriarch was correctly quoted, then I suppose we could begin messages with disclaimers:   If the Patriarch has been correctly reported, then.... such and such.
Regardless of whether Patriarch Bartholomew was correctly quoted, the question of how you interpret his words, the meaning you give to them, is the issue here.  You might be quoting him correctly yet still be dead wrong in how you understand the words you quote.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:03:00 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #363 on: March 05, 2010, 01:07:34 AM »

I see that in 1999 Touchstone magazine ran an article on what it calls the "numbing moral silence"  of the Ecumenical Patriarch in neglecting pro-life issues.

"Constantinople's Moral Oversight"
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Extract:

" I suggest that it is time for Orthodox Christians in America to begin questioning the pastoral leadership of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with respect to its stewardship of Orthodox Christian Tradition in America. Put simply: the Ecumenical Patriarchate has severely neglected, and continues to neglect, pro-life and other pivotal social issues in its American ministry.
 
"This neglect is readily noticeable if one compares the relative silence of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America on pro-life issues with the active involvement of other Orthodox hierarchies in this country.
 
" Consider, for example, the amicus curiae brief (click to view) filed on February 21, 1989, on behalf of Orthodox Christians in America in the famous Webster case before the Supreme Court (also printed in Touchstone, Spring 1992, pp 15-20). This was arguably the strongest and clearest statement on the evil of abortion to come from Orthodox auspices in America.

"Yet Bishop (now Metropolitan) Maximos of Pittsburgh was the only Greek Orthodox bishop among the many signers of that document, in contrast to the unanimous signatures of the ranking hierarchs from the Russian (OCA, ROCOR), Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and Romanian jurisdictions.
 
"A full half of the Orthodox in America belong to the Greek Orthodox archdiocese, whose spiritual leaders were--with the exception of one bishop--completely silent on that solemn occasion."

So Touchstone magazine criticized His All Holiness for not acting as they think he should have acted.  Big deal! Roll Eyes  Is Touchstone magazine the authority on how the EP should assert his authority as "spiritual leader" of the Orthodox world?  The last I saw, Touchstone is an ecumenical magazine with writers from Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant confessions.  This hardly makes them the authority on all things Orthodox.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:09:33 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #364 on: March 05, 2010, 01:15:31 AM »

I see that in 1999 Touchstone magazine ran an article on what it calls the "numbing moral silence"  of the Ecumenical Patriarch in neglecting pro-life issues.

"Constantinople's Moral Oversight"
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Extract:

" I suggest that it is time for Orthodox Christians in America to begin questioning the pastoral leadership of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with respect to its stewardship of Orthodox Christian Tradition in America. Put simply: the Ecumenical Patriarchate has severely neglected, and continues to neglect, pro-life and other pivotal social issues in its American ministry.
 
"This neglect is readily noticeable if one compares the relative silence of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America on pro-life issues with the active involvement of other Orthodox hierarchies in this country.
 
" Consider, for example, the amicus curiae brief (click to view) filed on February 21, 1989, on behalf of Orthodox Christians in America in the famous Webster case before the Supreme Court (also printed in Touchstone, Spring 1992, pp 15-20). This was arguably the strongest and clearest statement on the evil of abortion to come from Orthodox auspices in America.

"Yet Bishop (now Metropolitan) Maximos of Pittsburgh was the only Greek Orthodox bishop among the many signers of that document, in contrast to the unanimous signatures of the ranking hierarchs from the Russian (OCA, ROCOR), Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and Romanian jurisdictions.
 
"A full half of the Orthodox in America belong to the Greek Orthodox archdiocese, whose spiritual leaders were--with the exception of one bishop--completely silent on that solemn occasion."

So Touchstone magazine criticized His All Holiness for not acting as they think he should have acted.  Big deal! Roll Eyes  Is Touchstone magazine the authority on how the EP should assert his authority as "spiritual leader" of the Orthodox world?  The last I saw, Touchstone is an ecumenical magazine with writers from Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant confessions.  This hardly makes them the authority on all things Orthodox.

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!

The article which I referenced was written by an Orthodox Christian writer Andrew Estocin.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #365 on: March 05, 2010, 01:19:27 AM »

I see that in 1999 Touchstone magazine ran an article on what it calls the "numbing moral silence"  of the Ecumenical Patriarch in neglecting pro-life issues.

"Constantinople's Moral Oversight"
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-02-014-v

Extract:

" I suggest that it is time for Orthodox Christians in America to begin questioning the pastoral leadership of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with respect to its stewardship of Orthodox Christian Tradition in America. Put simply: the Ecumenical Patriarchate has severely neglected, and continues to neglect, pro-life and other pivotal social issues in its American ministry.
 
"This neglect is readily noticeable if one compares the relative silence of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America on pro-life issues with the active involvement of other Orthodox hierarchies in this country.
 
" Consider, for example, the amicus curiae brief (click to view) filed on February 21, 1989, on behalf of Orthodox Christians in America in the famous Webster case before the Supreme Court (also printed in Touchstone, Spring 1992, pp 15-20). This was arguably the strongest and clearest statement on the evil of abortion to come from Orthodox auspices in America.

"Yet Bishop (now Metropolitan) Maximos of Pittsburgh was the only Greek Orthodox bishop among the many signers of that document, in contrast to the unanimous signatures of the ranking hierarchs from the Russian (OCA, ROCOR), Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and Romanian jurisdictions.
 
"A full half of the Orthodox in America belong to the Greek Orthodox archdiocese, whose spiritual leaders were--with the exception of one bishop--completely silent on that solemn occasion."

So Touchstone magazine criticized His All Holiness for not acting as they think he should have acted.  Big deal! Roll Eyes  Is Touchstone magazine the authority on how the EP should assert his authority as "spiritual leader" of the Orthodox world?  The last I saw, Touchstone is an ecumenical magazine with writers from Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant confessions.  This hardly makes them the authority on all things Orthodox.

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!
And yet you posted quotes from the article in some apparent attempt to bolster your arguments.  Surely you must think them somewhat authoritative, or else you wouldn't have quoted them.

The article which I referenced was written by an Orthodox Christian writer Andrew Estocin.
Okay.  What's that supposed to mean?
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« Reply #366 on: March 05, 2010, 01:23:16 AM »

But since you're basing your whole response to the EP's words on your interpretation of what he said, the question of whether your interpretation is correct is crucial to this discussion, which therefore makes your answer necessary.

...............Regardless of whether Patriarch Bartholomew was correctly quoted, the question of how you interpret his words, the meaning you give to them, is the issue here.  You might be quoting him correctly yet still be dead wrong in how you understand the words you quote.

I am not alone in the way I understand the words of HDAH Bartholomew.  Others, it seems, are interpreting his words "disingenuously."

1.  http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/
2.  http://www.orthodoxnews.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=EditorialsOpinion.one&content_id=18280&CFID=23007755&CFTOKEN=29751934&tp_preview=true
3.  http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf

I would welcome the chance to read other articles you know of which interpret the words of Patriarch Bartholomew as authentic Orthodox teaching.

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« Reply #367 on: March 05, 2010, 01:31:56 AM »

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!
And yet you posted quotes from the article in some apparent attempt to bolster your arguments.  Surely you must think them somewhat authoritative, or else you wouldn't have quoted them

I cannot see the logic.  Why is the writing of an Orthodox writer diminished in value if it is publisheded in a non-Orthodox magazine, one which frequently publishes good articles of Orthodox interest?

Surely we distinguish between an Orthodox article with an Orthodox author and the magazine which publishes it? Is there a problem?

If one does a google search you will find the article on several Orthodox sites.

Why are we spending so much time on these peripheral issues?
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« Reply #368 on: March 05, 2010, 01:46:29 AM »

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!
And yet you posted quotes from the article in some apparent attempt to bolster your arguments.  Surely you must think them somewhat authoritative, or else you wouldn't have quoted them

I cannot see the logic.  Why is the writing of an Orthodox writer diminished in value if it is publisheded in a non-Orthodox magazine, one which frequently publishes good articles of Orthodox interest?

Surely we distinguish between an Orthodox article with an Orthodox author and the magazine which publishes it? Is there a problem?

If one does a google search you will find the article on several Orthodox sites.

Why are we spending so much time on these peripheral issues?

Well, just for the sake of completeness and damn Touchstone all to hell for PtA, I personally know most of the senior editors of Touchstone, its headquarters being in our parish house (I used to briefly do news articles for it many years ago) and vouch for the Orthodoxy of most of the Orthodox (although as it happens I don't know Andrew Escotin, at least I don't think I know him).  And it is a widely disseminated journal, well known and respected.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #369 on: March 05, 2010, 01:47:13 AM »

But since you're basing your whole response to the EP's words on your interpretation of what he said, the question of whether your interpretation is correct is crucial to this discussion, which therefore makes your answer necessary.

...............Regardless of whether Patriarch Bartholomew was correctly quoted, the question of how you interpret his words, the meaning you give to them, is the issue here.  You might be quoting him correctly yet still be dead wrong in how you understand the words you quote.

I am not alone in the way I understand the words of HDAH Bartholomew.  Others, it seems, are interpreting his words "disingenuously."

1.  http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/
2.  http://www.orthodoxnews.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=EditorialsOpinion.one&content_id=18280&CFID=23007755&CFTOKEN=29751934&tp_preview=true
3.  http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf
So what?  Your appeal to authority doesn't prove your interpretation correct.  They could be just as wrong.

I would welcome the chance to read other articles you know of which interpret the words of Patriarch Bartholomew as authentic Orthodox teaching.
But then, I'm not trying to prove that his words, as quoted from this interview, represent authentic Orthodox teaching.  I just don't think we're seeing the whole picture here, and that we are therefore not qualified to judge the Patriarch's position based solely on what you've presented thus far.
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« Reply #370 on: March 05, 2010, 01:55:29 AM »

But then, I'm not trying to prove that his words, as quoted from this interview, represent authentic Orthodox teaching.  I just don't think we're seeing the whole picture here, and that we are therefore not qualified to judge the Patriarch's position based solely on what you've presented thus far.

I am more than keen to see contrary articles, one which show that the Patriarch was giving authentic Orthodox moral teaching on abortion.

If you know of such articles, please, let us know of them.

I would truly love to know that the Patriarch's words have been misinterpreted.
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« Reply #371 on: March 05, 2010, 01:56:36 AM »

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!
And yet you posted quotes from the article in some apparent attempt to bolster your arguments.  Surely you must think them somewhat authoritative, or else you wouldn't have quoted them

I cannot see the logic.  Why is the writing of an Orthodox writer diminished in value if it is publisheded in a non-Orthodox magazine, one which frequently publishes good articles of Orthodox interest?
I didn't say that.  I just don't see what authority they have to sway my thinking and persuade me that I should accept your arguments.

Surely we distinguish between an Orthodox article with an Orthodox author and the magazine which publishes it? Is there a problem?

If one does a google search you will find the article on several Orthodox sites.
So what?  What authority does that grant to your arguments?

Why are we spending so much time on these peripheral issues?
Because you insist on dragging His All Holiness through the mud based on your possible misinterpretation of something he said?
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« Reply #372 on: March 05, 2010, 02:00:09 AM »

Is there some individual here who has said that Touchstone is an authority on all things Orthodox?  Not me! Not you!
And yet you posted quotes from the article in some apparent attempt to bolster your arguments.  Surely you must think them somewhat authoritative, or else you wouldn't have quoted them

I cannot see the logic.  Why is the writing of an Orthodox writer diminished in value if it is publisheded in a non-Orthodox magazine, one which frequently publishes good articles of Orthodox interest?

Surely we distinguish between an Orthodox article with an Orthodox author and the magazine which publishes it? Is there a problem?

If one does a google search you will find the article on several Orthodox sites.

Why are we spending so much time on these peripheral issues?

Well, just for the sake of completeness and damn Touchstone all to hell for PtA, I personally know most of the senior editors of Touchstone, its headquarters being in our parish house (I used to briefly do news articles for it many years ago) and vouch for the Orthodoxy of most of the Orthodox (although as it happens I don't know Andrew Escotin, at least I don't think I know him).  And it is a widely disseminated journal, well known and respected.
Don't get me wrong.  I have a lot of respect for Touchstone magazine.  I just respect them for what they are and not for what they aren't.  For all the good stuff Touchstone publishes, I don't see them as a definitive authority on what I am to believe as an Orthodox Christian, and I am therefore free to disagree with them or think them wrong about certain things.  As such, I am under no obligation to consider arguments from their supposed authority convincing.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 02:00:35 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #373 on: March 05, 2010, 02:01:37 AM »

Because you insist on dragging His All Holiness through the mud based on your possible misinterpretation of something he said?

You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?
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« Reply #374 on: March 05, 2010, 02:03:43 AM »

Because you insist on dragging His All Holiness through the mud based on your possible misinterpretation of something he said?

You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?
Does His All Holiness answer to you?
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« Reply #375 on: March 05, 2010, 02:16:11 AM »

Let's hope CAF does not see this thread.
So what if they do?  Since when are we supposed to care what the people at CAF think?

Because they can then contrast the unorthodox Ecumenical patriarch promoting the Gospel of abortion versus the conservative Pope of Rome promoting the Gospel of no contraception to preserve human life. Or is the number of days in Lent a better reason to form a schism?
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« Reply #376 on: March 05, 2010, 02:21:13 AM »

Because you insist on dragging His All Holiness through the mud based on your possible misinterpretation of something he said?

You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?
Does His All Holiness answer to you?

That is a question of ecclesiology which would take us far outside the parameters of this thread.
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« Reply #377 on: March 05, 2010, 02:31:37 AM »

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« Reply #378 on: March 05, 2010, 02:49:00 AM »

Because you insist on dragging His All Holiness through the mud based on your possible misinterpretation of something he said?

You think I am dragging him through the mud?  Because I understand his words as others have done, others of far greater acumen than I.  Do you not think that I weep and pray for a correction or a clarification from him?  Why does the First See of Orthodoxy stay adamantly silent?
Does His All Holiness answer to you?

That is a question of ecclesiology which would take us far outside the parameters of this thread.
You're making this too hard. Wink
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« Reply #379 on: March 05, 2010, 09:48:33 AM »

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.... If one considers the context of His Holiness' words (ie, his other actions or lack thereof related to abortion) it's pretty clear that Irish Hermit and others have interpreted him completely ingenuously.
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« Reply #380 on: March 05, 2010, 10:27:13 AM »

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.... If one considers the context of His Holiness' words (ie, his other actions or lack thereof related to abortion) it's pretty clear that Irish Hermit and others have interpreted him completely ingenuously.

I agree. It's not a matter of who answers to who, it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children. What father refuses to clarify when he says something that causes confusion and distress to his children...especially when it appears to be the exact opposite of what he supposedly believes?
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« Reply #381 on: March 05, 2010, 11:21:22 AM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
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« Reply #382 on: March 05, 2010, 11:25:34 AM »

Let's hope CAF does not see this thread.
So what if they do?  Since when are we supposed to care what the people at CAF think?

Because they can then contrast the unorthodox Ecumenical patriarch promoting the Gospel of abortion versus the conservative Pope of Rome promoting the Gospel of no contraception to preserve human life.

EP is not any Orthodox equivalent of the Pope of Rome - he is not the voice of Orthodoxy. And Catholics have their own cardinal Jean-Claude Turcotte who said, "I can understand that in certain cases, there is almost no other choice than to practice (abortion)" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Turcotte#Abortion).
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« Reply #383 on: March 05, 2010, 11:31:12 AM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.

That's fine with me, but the EP is the one who is posturing himself as a quasi-Pope figure and presents himself as the figurehead of Orthodoxy.

And I'm sure there are plenty of Greeks who have the same concerns, clergy, who have written for clarification and received no reply.
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« Reply #384 on: March 05, 2010, 11:36:26 AM »

That's fine with me, but the EP is the one who is posturing himself as a quasi-Pope figure and presents himself as the figurehead of Orthodoxy.
Is he? I don't know what gave you that impression, but even if it was the case, why would you encourage it by demanding that he pontificate to you?

And I'm sure there are plenty of Greeks who have the same concerns, clergy, who have written for clarification and received no reply.
How can you be "sure" of this? Have you checked? Or are you just making assumptions about people and posting it on internet forums for all to see?
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« Reply #385 on: March 05, 2010, 01:15:06 PM »

That's fine with me, but the EP is the one who is posturing himself as a quasi-Pope figure and presents himself as the figurehead of Orthodoxy.
Is he? I don't know what gave you that impression, but even if it was the case, why would you encourage it by demanding that he pontificate to you?

Yes, he does.

I'm not demanding that he pontificate, I'm asking that he clarify what he means. He does not have administrative power over any of us, but right or wrong he does have a certain spiritual authority and he is looked to for guidance by people outside his jurisdiction.

And regardless of whether we accept him as the "universal patriarch" or not, the outside world tends to see him that way and he needs to be clear to all the non-Orthodox as well that abortion is absolutely and always a sin. I don't see those kinds of definitive statements coming from him. If I've missed them, please provide examples because I'd like to be wrong. But this is how I read what he says:

"Generally speaking, we respect human life" is not a definitive anti-abortion statement.

"We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples" is just sophistry. The Church has the right to speak to every detail of our lives, because all of life is spiritual.

"We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion" implies that some of those reasons may have merit.

Not to mention his praise of pro-abortion Orthodox politicians. Why he lauds them instead of calling them to repentance is beyond my ability to understand, especially because the sins of a politician affect many, many people outside himself.

You see how none of what he said makes sense? It all comes across as carefully-weighed political-speak.
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« Reply #386 on: March 05, 2010, 01:47:32 PM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
I submit that you are distressed not by the EP's words, but by your interpretation of the EP's words, which is filtered through your distrust of the EP.

As you like.  But you are whistling in the dark.  You may like to consider how and when I came to distrust the EP.  Was it before or after his reported pro-choice position?
The Patriarch is neither pro-life nor pro-choice. Those terms apply to the legality of abortion in the United States, and as the EP is not an American, it's not an issue in which he needs to be involved. This is another example of your reading into his statements things that aren't there.
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« Reply #387 on: March 05, 2010, 01:52:19 PM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.
Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues. I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced. I think I've had at least a mild degree of success to that end.
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« Reply #388 on: March 05, 2010, 01:54:34 PM »

That's fine with me, but the EP is the one who is posturing himself as a quasi-Pope figure and presents himself as the figurehead of Orthodoxy.
Is he? I don't know what gave you that impression, but even if it was the case, why would you encourage it by demanding that he pontificate to you.

I don't agree with you that a hierarch becomes a Pope-like figure by the mere act of publicly teaching. I was under the impression that this is what hierarchs are all supposed to do.
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« Reply #389 on: March 05, 2010, 03:08:28 PM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.
Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues. I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced. I think I've had at least a mild degree of success to that end.

You don't care one way or the other about people (not to mention Christians) murdering their infant children?

Since the EP does not clearly condemn abortion in the strongest terms, his own statements open themselves to projection.
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« Reply #390 on: March 05, 2010, 03:26:28 PM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.
Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues. I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced. I think I've had at least a mild degree of success to that end.
Exactly the reason I'm here on this thread, as well.  I was just about to say this, but Mr. Y said it so eloquently I don't want to be redundant.
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« Reply #391 on: March 05, 2010, 03:32:52 PM »

it's a matter of being a clear spiritual father for his children.
Of those of you currently active in this thread, (yourself, ytterbiumanalyst, Irish Hermit, Rafa999, PeterTheAleut, ialmisry and Iconodule) not a single one of you can claim to be "spiritual children" of His All Holiness. So why do you care what he has to say? Do you now want him to behave like a Latin Pope? Why?
Tend to yourselves and seek your salvation in your own Churches.
Good point. I'm in this discussion not because I care about the EP or about abortion. I don't care one way or the other on either; they simply aren't my issues. I am here because I have noticed that Irish Hermit is behaving in a very Protestant fashion, interpreting the EP's words according to his own prejudices and then projecting his interpretation onto the EP. Through my posts, I hoped to bring out that prejudice, so the discussion would be more balanced. I think I've had at least a mild degree of success to that end.

You don't care one way or the other about people (not to mention Christians) murdering their infant children?

Since the EP does not clearly condemn abortion in the strongest terms, his own statements open themselves to projection.
So, because His All Holiness isn't doing what you think he should be doing, he's being less than the pastor you think he should be?  Is he the spokesperson for all of Orthodoxy?  When he asserts himself as such, people cry foul at his "papal pretensions", yet when he doesn't, people cry foul at his "dereliction of duty".  He just can't win.
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« Reply #392 on: March 05, 2010, 03:52:52 PM »

That's fine with me, but the EP is the one who is posturing himself as a quasi-Pope figure and presents himself as the figurehead of Orthodoxy.
Is he? I don't know what gave you that impression, but even if it was the case, why would you encourage it by demanding that he pontificate to you?

Yes, he does.

I'm not demanding that he pontificate, I'm asking that he clarify what he means. He does not have administrative power over any of us, but right or wrong he does have a certain spiritual authority and he is looked to for guidance by people outside his jurisdiction.
I'm a spiritual child under the episcopal oversight of Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the primatial oversight of Metropolitan Jonah.  Anything Patriarch Bartholomew says therefore has no direct impact on my Orthodox Christian life.  Why should I look to His All Holiness for guidance and spiritual authority?

And regardless of whether we accept him as the "universal patriarch" or not, the outside world tends to see him that way and he needs to be clear to all the non-Orthodox as well that abortion is absolutely and always a sin.
Again, why should he do what YOU think he should do?  Last I knew, YOU aren't the final arbiter of truth.  You're just an Internet poster who wants His All Holiness to say things that fit your particular agenda.  Why should he care about your agenda?

Not to mention his praise of pro-abortion Orthodox politicians. Why he lauds them instead of calling them to repentance is beyond my ability to understand, especially because the sins of a politician affect many, many people outside himself.
Comment on American politics that belongs only on the Politics board; therefore, you will find my reply there.  Re: Patriarch Bartholomew and the Politics of Abortion
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« Reply #393 on: March 05, 2010, 03:56:17 PM »

All bishops have a responsibility to teach the Christian faith and morals; they do so primarily for their own particular flock but what they say is important to all Christians. To say, "he's not my bishop, why should I care what he says?" is demonstrate indifference to the unity of the Church, as if the various dioceses are sealed compartments. Regardless of what his particular jurisdiction happens to be, the Ecumenical Patriarch, like other patriarchs, has a prominent public position in the Church and his opinions carry a certain weight to them which everyone feels. I would be similarly worried if the Patriarch of Moscow waffled on an important doctrinal or moral point; he's not my Patriarch but he is a prominent representative authority of the Church to the world. This has nothing to do with demanding that hierarchs act in a papal fashion; rather, it's about maintaining cohesion in the Church's witness.  
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« Reply #394 on: March 05, 2010, 04:16:59 PM »

All bishops have a responsibility to teach the Christian faith and morals; they do so primarily for their own particular flock but what they say is important to all Christians. To say, "he's not my bishop, why should I care what he says?" is demonstrate indifference to the unity of the Church, as if the various dioceses are sealed compartments. Regardless of what his particular jurisdiction happens to be, the Ecumenical Patriarch, like other patriarchs, has a prominent public position in the Church and his opinions carry a certain weight to them which everyone feels. I would be similarly worried if the Patriarch of Moscow waffled on an important doctrinal or moral point; he's not my Patriarch but he is a prominent representative authority of the Church to the world. This has nothing to do with demanding that hierarchs act in a papal fashion; rather, it's about maintaining cohesion in the Church's witness.  
But in the context of this debate, I said what I said as a means of expressing my opinion that some of us here are just getting far too hung up on Patriarch Bartholomew's reticence to preach clearly the anti-abortion message they want him to preach.  There's much more to Orthodox faith than just how we relate to the abortion issue.  Maybe His All Holiness is in such a position that he needs to focus on other issues of importance to the Orthodox under his care, issues that are not so closely tied to one nation's politics.

The glory of the decentralized authority structure of the Orthodox Church is that other bishops can speak specifically to the moral issues faithful in their diocese face.  I see that Metropolitan Jonah has spoken very clearly and unequivocally to his American audience that abortion is evil, and I say, "Kudos, Vladyka!"  He spoke a message people in his flock needed to hear.  I see that the Orthodox Church has made itself visibly present at the annual Right to Life rallies in Washington, D.C.  I laud this action as something we Orthodox in the U.S. need to do.  But do you not see the common thread here?  These are examples of the Church acting and speaking its message locally by addressing concerns of importance to the local faithful.  This isn't about a hierarch speaking the message you want to hear from some ivory tower in a land far, far away.
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« Reply #395 on: March 05, 2010, 04:34:49 PM »

If His Holiness had made no statement about abortion at all, then I, for one, would not make an issue of it. The trouble is, he did make a statement which was, at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation, about an issue which is of great importance throughout the world and especially so in Orthodox countries. He has not clarified his statement. That is a problem.
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« Reply #396 on: March 05, 2010, 04:42:30 PM »

If His Holiness had made no statement about abortion at all, then I, for one, would not make an issue of it. The trouble is, he did make a statement which was, at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation, about an issue which is of great importance throughout the world and especially so in Orthodox countries. He has not clarified his statement. That is a problem.
Do we have the complete transcript of the oft cited interview in question?  If not, then all we have is soundbites.  Can we discern accurately what His All Holiness said in that interview just from the soundbites that got published?
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« Reply #397 on: March 05, 2010, 05:35:31 PM »

If His Holiness had made no statement about abortion at all, then I, for one, would not make an issue of it. The trouble is, he did make a statement which was, at best, ambiguous and liable to misinterpretation, about an issue which is of great importance throughout the world and especially so in Orthodox countries. He has not clarified his statement. That is a problem.
Do we have the complete transcript of the oft cited interview in question?  If not, then all we have is soundbites.  Can we discern accurately what His All Holiness said in that interview just from the soundbites that got published?

That, I think, is a fair question, and could very much change my whole opinion on the matter. Maybe he said "We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion" but the fact remains that it is still murder.

However, when the media grossly distorts a person's words, usually they rush to set the record straight. The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does, so it can't be that they aren't aware of any of this. So the confusion remains, and the silence speaks volumes.

I am inclined to think it's accurate, based on his track record. I realize that is an assumption on my part, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.

I also disagree that abortion is an American issue and less of an issue elsewhere. Abortion is legal in places all over the world, and a huge problem in Orthodox countries. It's definitely not peculiar to America, and it may well be worse in other countries. Mass infanticide—human life—is a much bigger issue than all the environmentalist stuff he is focusing on, so I reject the implication that abortion is a minor issue not worth mentioning.

We've had a "Green Patriarch", I hope the next patriarch is the "Anti-Murder Patriarch."
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« Reply #398 on: March 05, 2010, 05:51:24 PM »

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does,

"Media Staff"?  Cheesy ROFL! You are so American!
Have you actually seen the Phanar?
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« Reply #399 on: March 05, 2010, 05:54:21 PM »

I am inclined to think it's accurate, based on his track record. I realize that is an assumption on my part, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.
Not unreasonable because it's your assumption? Wink

I also disagree that abortion is an American issue and less of an issue elsewhere.
Not saying it is a distinctively American issue.  Just that the language a lot of people on this forum use to talk about abortion paints it in colors unique to the American experience of the abortion issue.

Abortion is legal in places all over the world, and a huge problem in Orthodox countries. It's definitely not peculiar to America, and it may well be worse in other countries. Mass infanticide—human life—is a much bigger issue than all the environmentalist stuff he is focusing on, so I reject the implication that abortion is a minor issue not worth mentioning.
Not calling abortion a minor issue.  Just saying that it's not the ONLY issue of importance to Orthodox Christians and, therefore, to the EP.

We've had a "Green Patriarch", I hope the next patriarch is the "Anti-Murder Patriarch."
Hope all you want, but remember that the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't beholden to you and what you would like him to be.
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« Reply #400 on: March 05, 2010, 05:56:22 PM »

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does, so it can't be that they aren't aware of any of this.
Evident from what?  Your own "reasonable" assumptions?
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« Reply #401 on: March 05, 2010, 06:00:43 PM »

Quote
Evident from what?  Your own "reasonable" assumptions?

It's more reasonable than thinking that he personally directs all media relations for the Phanar, which is the other alternative...

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does,

"Media Staff"?  Cheesy ROFL! You are so American!
Have you actually seen the Phanar?

Well, I doubt he has a full entourage of transcribers and handlers, photographers and documentary filmmakers, but someone sets up his interviews for him and coordinates all this. I don't expect that he does it himself. If he does, I'll eat crow.
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« Reply #402 on: March 05, 2010, 06:02:56 PM »

Quote
Evident from what?  Your own "reasonable" assumptions?

It's more reasonable than thinking that he personally directs all media relations for the Phanar, which is the other alternative...

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does,

"Media Staff"?  Cheesy ROFL! You are so American!
Have you actually seen the Phanar?

Well, I doubt he has a full entourage of transcribers and handlers, photographers and documentary filmmakers, but someone sets up his interviews for him and coordinates all this. I don't expect that he does it himself. If he does, I'll eat crow.
Why are you thinking of only two alternatives?
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« Reply #403 on: March 05, 2010, 06:03:16 PM »

I am inclined to think it's accurate, based on his track record. I realize that is an assumption on my part, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.
Not unreasonable because it's your assumption? Wink

Based on his track record of unqualified glowing praise for unabashedly pro-abortion politicians like Paul Sarbanes.

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« Reply #404 on: March 05, 2010, 06:04:22 PM »

Quote
Evident from what?  Your own "reasonable" assumptions?

It's more reasonable than thinking that he personally directs all media relations for the Phanar, which is the other alternative...

The EP evidently has a competent media staff to do everything he does,

"Media Staff"?  Cheesy ROFL! You are so American!
Have you actually seen the Phanar?

Well, I doubt he has a full entourage of transcribers and handlers, photographers and documentary filmmakers, but someone sets up his interviews for him and coordinates all this. I don't expect that he does it himself. If he does, I'll eat crow.
Why are you thinking of only two alternatives?

Maybe his staff is incompetent, which I left open as a possibility. In that case he should fire them  Cheesy
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