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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 57001 times) Average Rating: 1
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ialmisry
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« Reply #315 on: February 17, 2008, 07:04:59 PM »

Oh, she had her own affairs as well, sometimes with the same woman as Sartre, it was a two way street. Not always the easiest of relationships, but it seemed to last far longer than most marriages do today (though I believe it was entirely platonic after the war) so they obviously had something going for them. She certainly thought very highly of Sartre and he thought rather highly of her. Of course, as to who's work was the most important, history will ultimately be the judge and things seem to be comming out in her favour based both and the quality and the impact of her work. From a social perspective The Second Sex has had a far greater impact than any work of Sartre's ever will.

In the end, it didn't matter that she hadn't had an abortion, what mattered was that she was willing to take on the social stigma to transform society. And I have nothing against propaganda when used to advance a noble cause like women's rights...here, at least, the end is justification enough for the means.

MORE TRUTH!

The fact that you continue to see their relationship through sex only, continues to prove my point.

"so they obviously had something going for them." You do know what co-dependent means?

« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 07:17:03 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #316 on: February 17, 2008, 07:20:04 PM »

Which is why liberty is too important to be subjected to the whims of the masses and should be codified out of their reach in Constitutional Law. Fortunately, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution in this manner, in the manner most conducive to liberty, though I would feel more secure in the matter if we actually had a constitutional amendment directly prohibiting anti-abortion laws rather than relying on the court's interpretation of liberty.

Soooo popular sovereignty is great, unless the views you oppose are popular.  Why don't we abolish the Constitution and have the philosopher kings run things from the bench?
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« Reply #317 on: February 17, 2008, 07:40:38 PM »

Thank God, that the founding fathers of this Republic were deists and secularists and not religious zealots, and that they had the wisdom to craft a constitutional Republic that could prevent the tyranny of the majority. 

yeah, like that abolitionist rabble.
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« Reply #318 on: February 17, 2008, 08:19:49 PM »

Soooo popular sovereignty is great, unless the views you oppose are popular.  Why don't we abolish the Constitution and have the philosopher kings run things from the bench?

If we could ensure that our Justices were always like what we found in the last court, I would agree; I would happily submit to the reign of Justice Sandra Day O'connor...but, of course, we can't. But since our Court tends to follow the intent of the Constitution, regardless of who sits on the Bench we have had fairly good decisions the Supreme Court, though on paper the most dangerous branch of government, has proven itself to be the most reliable and best defender of liberty amongst the three branches of government.

Of course, I'm not a democrat, I have never, in all my life, advocated pure democracy, the mob can undermine our rights as easily as a monarch can. I am a republican, in the truest sense of the term, and a constitutional republican at that. I support a representative government restricted by a constitution that will uphold our liberties against autocrat and democrat alike. The reason I advocate a republican government is not because the representatives of the people are inherently better rulers than an autocrat, but because history has proven that such a form of government has done more to preserve liberty than any other. To quote Winston Churchill, 'Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time.'

Liberty should be our primary concern. We choose our system of government base on that which will give the greatest degree of liberty to the citizens of the state. The rise of Nazi Germany demonstrates the problem of having no constitution, or of having a constitution too easily altered, republican government alone does not ensure liberty. But a constitution like we enjoy and an independent branch of government designed to uphold this Constitution has proven to be of great benefit to the citizens of this republic and the cause of freedom.
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« Reply #319 on: March 04, 2010, 05:33:08 PM »

I have never, until now, participated in a discussion on this on the Forum.  I have been far too ashamed to speak of it where Catholics are present.  But Alveus raised the topic and HandmaidenofGod asked for substantiation.
1.  You have posted links to this article before and used them to express your disdain for His All Holiness's "pro-choice" positions.
2.  We have discussed the politics of abortion many times on the Politics board--it's one of our oft recurring hot topics.
3.  The new thread would need to be in Politics.

I do not discuss politics.

For me it is a question of the religious and moral teaching of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I can appreciate that Americans may see it as "politics" since they mix it up with pro-choice Greek politicians in the States.  But the rest of the world over which His All-Holiness presides has little knowlegde of US politics and Greek senators and we see it as a religious matter.  We simply are unable to discuss the political American angle since it is hardly known to us.  But we are able to objectively discuss the Church teaching on abortion vis-a-vis the statement of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #320 on: March 04, 2010, 05:45:09 PM »

I have never, until now, participated in a discussion on this on the Forum.  I have been far too ashamed to speak of it where Catholics are present.  But Alveus raised the topic and HandmaidenofGod asked for substantiation.
1.  You have posted links to this article before

I see that I have mentioned this article once before, in January 2008.  Apologies.  That had slipped my mind.

Quote
and used them to express your disdain for His All Holiness's "pro-choice" positions.


I have read what I posted 2 years ago and find it to be quite polite.  None of it is my words anyway, apart from the concluding sentence.

Please read it for yourself.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3282.msg202642.html#msg202642
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 05:50:06 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #321 on: March 04, 2010, 06:09:20 PM »

I have never, until now, participated in a discussion on this on the Forum.  I have been far too ashamed to speak of it where Catholics are present.  But Alveus raised the topic and HandmaidenofGod asked for substantiation.
1.  You have posted links to this article before

I see that I have mentioned this article once before, in January 2008.  Apologies.  That had slipped my mind.

Quote
and used them to express your disdain for His All Holiness's "pro-choice" positions.


I have read what I posted 2 years ago and find it to be quite polite.  None of it is my words anyway, apart from the concluding sentence.

Please read it for yourself.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3282.msg202642.html#msg202642
You weren't so polite here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14965.msg213927.html#msg213927
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 06:09:45 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #322 on: March 04, 2010, 06:21:42 PM »


These are my words:

"As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion."

Do you find that impolite?  Given the epithets used in the sacred canons for those who procure abortions and those who facilitate them, I would say that my words are rather restrained.  I imagine the only people they could possibly offend would not be Christians but those who support abortion.
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« Reply #323 on: March 04, 2010, 06:25:55 PM »

I have never, until now, participated in a discussion on this on the Forum.  I have been far too ashamed to speak of it where Catholics are present.  But Alveus raised the topic and HandmaidenofGod asked for substantiation.
1.  You have posted links to this article before and used them to express your disdain for His All Holiness's "pro-choice" positions.
2.  We have discussed the politics of abortion many times on the Politics board--it's one of our oft recurring hot topics.
3.  The new thread would need to be in Politics.

I do not discuss politics.

For me it is a question of the religious and moral teaching of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I can appreciate that Americans may see it as "politics" since they mix it up with pro-choice Greek politicians in the States.  But the rest of the world over which His All-Holiness presides has little knowlegde of US politics and Greek senators and we see it as a religious matter.  We simply are unable to discuss the political American angle since it is hardly known to us.  But we are able to objectively discuss the Church teaching on abortion vis-a-vis the statement of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

In what way have I misrepreesnted His Most Divine All-Holiness?
You would rather His All Holiness take such a firm stance on abortion that he would invade private bedrooms to enforce it?  You judge him as pro-choice because he won't?  What if he holds to the Church's traditional doctrine on abortion but has deemed it wise to approach the issue from a more pastoral perspective that recognizes the many reasons why many couples might pursue an abortion?

What we've read is a newspaper article that relates particular soundbites from a person's interview with Patriarch Bartholomew.  How do we know the article presented His All Holiness faithfully and accurately?  Do we know the context of the soundbites?  Do we know that the words he chose communicated accurately what he really had on his mind?  After all, we're talking about someone for whom English is most likely not a first language.

This is how I think you, Isa, Michal, et al., may be misrepresenting His All Holiness.
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« Reply #324 on: March 04, 2010, 06:27:17 PM »

A little google magic for the words "Bartholomew" "Archon" and "Sarbanes" led to this link:
http://solomonhezekiah.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/the-greatest-scandal-in-american-orthodoxy/

It's a run down of "pro-choice" politicians and their relationship with their church.

Quote
Any Orthodox bishop, including the Ecumenical Patriarch, who praises or elevates such a person in the Church should be causing a scandal far worse than the misappropriation of funds in the OCA, or a drunk Antiochian touching up girl in a casino. Every clergy and every lay person of such a diocese who cares about the integrity of the Orthodox Church should be writing to their bishop.

Oddly enough, I hit the web page on the drunk Antiochian yesterday as well.

Do you have access to the private Politics board, because that's where you'll find my response?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 06:28:18 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #325 on: March 04, 2010, 06:29:01 PM »

A little google magic for the words "Bartholomew" "Archon" and "Sarbanes" led to this link:
http://solomonhezekiah.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/the-greatest-scandal-in-american-orthodoxy/

It's a run down of "pro-choice" politicians and their relationship with their church.

Quote
Any Orthodox bishop, including the Ecumenical Patriarch, who praises or elevates such a person in the Church should be causing a scandal far worse than the misappropriation of funds in the OCA, or a drunk Antiochian touching up girl in a casino. Every clergy and every lay person of such a diocese who cares about the integrity of the Orthodox Church should be writing to their bishop.

Oddly enough, I hit the web page on the drunk Antiochian yesterday as well.

Do you have access to the private Politics board, because that's where you'll find my response?

Yeah, I actually forgot that thread wasn't part of that forum.. Mea culpa.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 06:31:18 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #326 on: March 04, 2010, 06:34:30 PM »

You would rather His All Holiness take such a firm stance on abortion that he would invade private bedrooms to enforce it? 

Oh, Peter, thanks for the chuckle.  Would we expect His Divine All-Holiness to invade bordellos to enforce his views against prostitution?   Or the bedrooms of unmarried couples to enforce his views on fornication?     

HDAH Bartholomew is well able to state his views forcefully without needing to invade bedrooms and bordellos!! 
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« Reply #327 on: March 04, 2010, 06:43:30 PM »


What if he holds to the Church's traditional doctrine on abortion but has deemed it wise to approach the issue from a more pastoral perspective that recognizes the many reasons why many couples might pursue an abortion?

Leaving aside such extreme cases as ectopic pregnancy, that approach would seem to place us on the slippery slope of relativism.

The true voice of the Church was expressed in January last year by Metropolitan Jonah  --- "…unqualified opposition to abortion is at the heart of the Orthodox Christian Tradition and is unarguably the teaching and the dogma of the Orthodox Church."

~ Metropolitan Jonah at the March for Life in Washington last year.
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« Reply #328 on: March 04, 2010, 06:51:24 PM »


What if he holds to the Church's traditional doctrine on abortion but has deemed it wise to approach the issue from a more pastoral perspective that recognizes the many reasons why many couples might pursue an abortion?

Leaving aside such extreme cases as ectopic pregnancy, that approach would seem to place us on the slippery slope of relativism.
Then feel free to disagree with His All Holiness's pastoral approach to this issue--there's certainly nothing wrong with that.  I much prefer to see that than a statement of, "I have zero respect for the man..."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 06:56:19 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #329 on: March 04, 2010, 06:55:01 PM »

A little google magic for the words "Bartholomew" "Archon" and "Sarbanes" led to this link:
http://solomonhezekiah.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/the-greatest-scandal-in-american-orthodoxy/

It's a run down of "pro-choice" politicians and their relationship with their church.

Quote
Any Orthodox bishop, including the Ecumenical Patriarch, who praises or elevates such a person in the Church should be causing a scandal far worse than the misappropriation of funds in the OCA, or a drunk Antiochian touching up girl in a casino. Every clergy and every lay person of such a diocese who cares about the integrity of the Orthodox Church should be writing to their bishop.

Oddly enough, I hit the web page on the drunk Antiochian yesterday as well.

Do you have access to the private Politics board, because that's where you'll find my response?

Yeah, I actually forgot that thread wasn't part of that forum.. Mea culpa.

I went ahead and moved your post to the Politics board and merged it into the thread I started in reply to your post:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26264.0.html. Wink
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« Reply #330 on: March 04, 2010, 07:10:05 PM »

Then feel free to disagree with His All Holiness's pastoral approach to this issue--there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

HDAH Bartholomew's reported pastoral approach of "There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion" is outside the moral parameters and the sacred canons of Orthodoxy.  It is the position of the pro-abortion lobby.   As such the position is not pastoral at all and is in conflict with 2 millennia of Orthodox teaching, unarguable Orthodox teaching and dogma as Metropolitan Jonah proclaimed at the 2009 March for Life.

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
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« Reply #331 on: March 04, 2010, 07:41:29 PM »

You would rather His All Holiness take such a firm stance on abortion that he would invade private bedrooms to enforce it? 

Oh, Peter, thanks for the chuckle.  Would we expect His Divine All-Holiness to invade bordellos to enforce his views against prostitution?   Or the bedrooms of unmarried couples to enforce his views on fornication?     

HDAH Bartholomew is well able to state his views forcefully without needing to invade bedrooms and bordellos!! 


Exactly!


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« Reply #332 on: March 04, 2010, 07:55:32 PM »

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
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« Reply #333 on: March 04, 2010, 08:38:29 PM »

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730

I love it! Grin


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« Reply #334 on: March 04, 2010, 09:00:33 PM »

Then feel free to disagree with His All Holiness's pastoral approach to this issue--there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

HDAH Bartholomew's reported pastoral approach of "There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion" is outside the moral parameters and the sacred canons of Orthodoxy.  It is the position of the pro-abortion lobby.   As such the position is not pastoral at all and is in conflict with 2 millennia of Orthodox teaching, unarguable Orthodox teaching and dogma as Metropolitan Jonah proclaimed at the 2009 March for Life.

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this.  But how do you know you're representing His All Holiness faithfully?

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
And how do I know that my former bishop's understanding of His All Holiness is correct?
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« Reply #335 on: March 04, 2010, 09:48:38 PM »

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730

I love it! Grin


Selam

Amen.  It is good that some Bishops still speak with the Fathers.
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« Reply #336 on: March 04, 2010, 10:12:24 PM »

Then feel free to disagree with His All Holiness's pastoral approach to this issue--there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

HDAH Bartholomew's reported pastoral approach of "There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion" is outside the moral parameters and the sacred canons of Orthodoxy.  It is the position of the pro-abortion lobby.   As such the position is not pastoral at all and is in conflict with 2 millennia of Orthodox teaching, unarguable Orthodox teaching and dogma as Metropolitan Jonah proclaimed at the 2009 March for Life.

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this.  But how do you know you're representing His All Holiness faithfully?

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730
And how do I know that my former bishop's understanding of His All Holiness is correct?

He presided over the bishopric while making that statement  Grin
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« Reply #337 on: March 04, 2010, 10:13:23 PM »

I had never read the following statement from Patriarch Bartholomew on abortion before today.....very disheartening.
 
“Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Bartholomew said, the church also “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90 p.A22)

I would hope that the previous statement was grossly distorted due to a translation problems, but it seems to fit with the following statement from his 2008 book, pg. 150.

"In all such social and moral issues, it is not one or another position that the Orthodox Church seeks to promote in a defensive spirit. Indeed, we would normally refrain from expounding a single rigidly defined dogma on social and moral challenges.”




 
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« Reply #338 on: March 04, 2010, 10:16:13 PM »

I had never read the following statement from Patriarch Bartholomew on abortion before today.....very disheartening.
 
“Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Bartholomew said, the church also “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90 p.A22)

I would hope that the previous statement was grossly distorted due to a translation problems, but it seems to fit with the following statement from his 2008 book, pg. 150.

"In all such social and moral issues, it is not one or another position that the Orthodox Church seeks to promote in a defensive spirit. Indeed, we would normally refrain from expounding a single rigidly defined dogma on social and moral challenges.”
But we don't have rigidly defined dogmas on what to do when people sin. That is to be handled between them and their priest, in confession and repentance. The Vatican may proclaim punishments for sin, but our Patriarchs do not. It's simply not their place.
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« Reply #339 on: March 04, 2010, 10:34:02 PM »

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this.  But how do you know you're representing His All Holiness faithfully?

May I present a message which was not transferred from thread to thread in the split.  In it you will find the contact details for two prominent OCL clergymen, including the founder of OCL.  If you have the interest you could contact them and their word will be much more credible than mine.

------------------------------

"Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
(written by a priest under the Ecumenical Throne)

http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


Here are his words:

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


I understand that Fr Dr Edward Pehanich (ACROD, founder of Orthodox
Christians For Life) who reported all this in an article in oclife.org
< http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf > has sought clarification or retraction
from His Divine All-Holiness.  There has been no response.

As for those who doubt that the Patriarch was honestly reported, why would
Fr Edward Pehanich who holds a prominent position in ACROD highlight these
remarks in the Orthodox Christians for Life magazine if they were
unreliable, thereby antagonising his supreme spiritual authority in the
Phanar. I'd say he's a brave and honest priest.

If you'd like to contact Fr Edward and ask for up to date information his
contact details are:

Very Rev. Dr. Edward Pehanich
10062 Firethorn Dr.
N. Huntingdon, PA 15642
Phone: (724) 863-3741
---

And Fr Anthony Nelson, a prominent ROCA priest in the Right to Life
Movement, has written:

We at Oklahoma Orthodox Christians for Life also wrote both to the
Patriarchate and the GOA requesting comments/clarification of the comments
at the time. Our requests went unanswered.

Protopriest Anthony Nelson
St. Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, OK USA 405-672-1441
Source:
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0701D&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&m=998\
15&P=6149

____________________________
If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?

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« Reply #340 on: March 04, 2010, 10:37:22 PM »

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this. 

It is not a matter of "feelings,"  Peter, but of whether HDAH Bartholomew is faithful to the canons and teaching of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #341 on: March 04, 2010, 10:41:02 PM »

If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?
No, if anyone is wrongly reported, it is the responsibility of the reporter to correct the statement, not the one incorrectly quoted.
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« Reply #342 on: March 04, 2010, 10:50:41 PM »

I see that in the changeover from thread to thread we lost the words of His Grace Bishop Tikhon...

-----------------------------
Bishop Tikhon (FitzGerald), retired bishop of San Francisco expresses in his own inimitable way his opinion of the Patriarch's pro-choice stance...  This is a classic "tikhonism."

"I have long been in the ranks of those who view with
distaste the care with which the current Patriarch
(even when only a Metropolitan) has avoided
discomfiting anyone anywhere on the topic of abortion"


Source ::
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0909D&L=ORTHODOX&P=R2730

I love it! Grin


Selam

Amen.  It is good that some Bishops still speak with the Fathers.

This is wonderful. I love Bishop Tikhon. Smiley

I prefer our Bishops to speak plainly and clearly, and not mask themselves with the clutter of focus-group-tested non-offensive anti-inflammatory language (this is for all clergy, not just HAH). Since the Church is the custodian of the absolute Truth about God and mankind, why do we not take bold stands? Why do our bishops make statements that even require interpretation on black-and-white issues like abortion?

It's better to ruffle feathers and hurt people's feelings with the Truth than it is to leave people to their own devices or lead people astray with ambiguity. That seems to have been St. John Chrysostom's philosophy. Smiley

(I am giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming HAH is against abortion and would call it infanticide and slaughter like the Fathers did, and the ambiguity is just fear of backlash. If he actually wavers on the wrongness of infanticide, then God help us.)
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« Reply #343 on: March 04, 2010, 10:50:58 PM »

If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?

No, if anyone is wrongly reported, it is the responsibility of the reporter to correct the statement, not the one incorrectly quoted.

1.  How will the reporter know his mistake if the person interviewed does not contact him?

2.  This is not a purported error in a minor local scandal but it involves the teaching of the supreme spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church, on a moral question which greatly agitates all Christian Churches and nations of our era.   It is not an error that can be allowed to stand because it leads astray not just the Homogenia but circa 350 million people in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #344 on: March 04, 2010, 10:59:20 PM »

If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?

No, if anyone is wrongly reported, it is the responsibility of the reporter to correct the statement, not the one incorrectly quoted.

1.  How will the reporter know his mistake if the person interviewed does not contact him?
Good point. How do we know the EP has not contacted the reporter? All we have from this article is a statement that as of the date of the article's publication, the EP had not yet contacted ACROD. We have no other information.

Quote
2.  This is not a purported error in a minor local scandal but it involves the teaching of the supreme spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church, on a moral question which greatly agitates all Christian Churches and nations of our era.   It is not an error that can be allowed to stand because it leads astray not just the Homogenia but circa 350 million people in the Orthodox Church.
If there is an error here, I believe it is one of interpretation. Yes, you could interpret the EP's words to mean that he supports the freedom of individuals to have an abortion, but I think that is a disingenuous interpretation. I interpret his words to mean, "We disapprove of abortion, but we also do not handle every case in the same way, because we know that there are many different reasons for a person to have an abortion, and each one of these requires the sinner to repent in a different manner." As this is my interpretation, I find it to be quite in line with Orthodox teaching.
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« Reply #345 on: March 04, 2010, 11:03:53 PM »

There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this.  But how do you know you're representing His All Holiness faithfully?

May I present a message which was not transferred from thread to thread in the split.  In it you will find the contact details for two prominent OCL clergymen, including the founder of OCL.  If you have the interest you could contact them and their word will be much more credible than mine.
Sorry, I don't put much credibility in such activist organizations as the Orthodox Christian Laity.

If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?
It may seem so to you, but that's just the problem here.  I'm not saying His All Holiness was wrongly reported.  I'm saying that you may be misinterpreting what His All Holiness is reported to have said in the interview.  How do you know that your interpretation is correct and that any error would therefore have to have been the reporter's?


There are not two options here, Peter.  The Patriarch has no choice but to be the voice of the Church's authentic teaching so that the light of Christ may shine before men.   One bishop (the Primate of your Church) was this voice in Washington last year; another bishop , sadly, was not that voice.
Yes, I know how you feel about this.

It is not a matter of "feelings,"  Peter, but of whether HDAH Bartholomew is faithful to the canons and teaching of the Orthodox Church.
But when it comes to your judgment of whether he has been faithful to the canons and teaching of the Church, it IS a matter of [your] feelings.
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« Reply #346 on: March 04, 2010, 11:07:24 PM »

If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?
No, if anyone is wrongly reported, it is the responsibility of the reporter to correct the statement, not the one incorrectly quoted.

WRONG

His All Holiness goes trotting around the globe, claiming to speak for 300 million Orthodox.

Now two priests, one under the Phanar's omophorion, who represent many Orthodox on a central moral issue, ask for clarification on a quote and get silence. Qui tacit consentit.

So either His All Holiness can correct the record, or stop involving us when he is talking himself up to his pals.
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« Reply #347 on: March 04, 2010, 11:10:29 PM »

But we don't have rigidly defined dogmas on what to do when people sin. That is to be handled between them and their priest, in confession and repentance. The Vatican may proclaim punishments for sin, but our Patriarchs do not. It's simply not their place.

The canon mandating 7 years exclusion from communion for abortion is observed even in our days, although usually it is not the full seven years but a smaller period of time.
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« Reply #348 on: March 04, 2010, 11:12:55 PM »

2.  This is not a purported error in a minor local scandal but it involves the teaching of the supreme spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church, on a moral question which greatly agitates all Christian Churches and nations of our era.   It is not an error that can be allowed to stand because it leads astray not just the Homogenia but circa 350 million people in the Orthodox Church.
Yes, I see.  His All Holiness is the supreme spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church when he is in error, yet when he speaks truth, he is merely another bishop speaking the truth. Roll Eyes  Do you really think the EP has that much power to lead the whole Church astray?
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« Reply #349 on: March 04, 2010, 11:14:44 PM »

If there is an error here, I believe it is one of interpretation. Yes, you could interpret the EP's words to mean that he supports the freedom of individuals to have an abortion, but I think that is a disingenuous interpretation.

Why write in such a derogatory manner of those who are quite genuinely distressed by the words of the Patriarch?   Why does the Patriarch not issue a statement to allay this distress? 
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« Reply #350 on: March 04, 2010, 11:17:06 PM »

If there is an error here, I believe it is one of interpretation. Yes, you could interpret the EP's words to mean that he supports the freedom of individuals to have an abortion, but I think that is a disingenuous interpretation.

Why write in such a derogatory manner of those who are quite genuinely distressed by the words of the Patriarch?   Why does the Patriarch not issue a statement to allay this distress? 
Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.
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« Reply #351 on: March 04, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »

Yes, I see.  His All Holiness is the supreme spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church when he is in error, yet when he speaks truth, he is merely another bishop speaking the truth. Roll Eyes  Do you really think the EP has that much power to lead the whole Church astray?

Yes, because when Bishop Joseph Harkiolakis was Metropolitan of New Zealand he revealed that when he was a bishop in Australia he had been asked not to publish his article against abortion and not to promote the anti-abortion icon because the EP did not want such clear cut guidance from a bishop.  I see that Bishop's Joseph's article is referenced earlier in this thread.
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« Reply #352 on: March 04, 2010, 11:24:02 PM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of the source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco himself expressed.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
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« Reply #353 on: March 04, 2010, 11:26:41 PM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
You keep dodging my question, Fr. Ambrose.  How do you know that you have interpreted His All Holiness's words correctly?
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« Reply #354 on: March 04, 2010, 11:28:46 PM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.
Speaking as a member of the retired Bishop Tikhon's former diocese, his disdain for anyone really doesn't mean a whole lot to me.
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« Reply #355 on: March 04, 2010, 11:34:32 PM »

If I was Orthodox I would take this more seriously. The command to preserve life is above all other commands. I would slam the books on him for promoting abortion in countries suffering from this practice. Let he who present another gospel be khrim.
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« Reply #356 on: March 04, 2010, 11:34:32 PM »

Let's hope CAF does not see this thread.
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« Reply #357 on: March 04, 2010, 11:35:13 PM »

Let's hope CAF does not see this thread.
So what if they do?  Since when are we supposed to care what the people at CAF think?
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« Reply #358 on: March 04, 2010, 11:35:59 PM »

Because you're not distressed. To be distressed by the EP's words, you have to trust the EP. It doesn't take much time reading your posts to find out how you feel about him.

Unfortunately, I have learnt not to trust HDAH.  A great part of source of distrust is his words on abortion.  Would you trust a bishop who promoted his reported views?  I feel the same disdain for him as Bishop Emeritus Tikhon of San Francisco.

I am indeed sincerely distressed that the First See of the Orthodox world holds such views.   If only it were not so.... and we could offer him the love and respect which should be given.....
I submit that you are distressed not by the EP's words, but by your interpretation of the EP's words, which is filtered through your distrust of the EP.
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« Reply #359 on: March 05, 2010, 12:00:47 AM »

You keep dodging my question, Fr. Ambrose.  How do you know that you have interpreted His All Holiness's words correctly?

It's not a worthwhile question to attempt to answer.  We have had, for example, newspaper reports that Metropolitan Hilarion accepts the validity and efficaciousness of Roman Catholic sacraments and considers them on a par with Orthodox sacraments.   No forum member has raised similar points about the articles and contested them.

If it bothers you that some of us think that the Patriarch was correctly quoted, then I suppose we could begin messages with disclaimers:   If the Patriarch has been correctly reported, then.... such and such.
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