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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 51246 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #180 on: February 15, 2008, 10:22:52 AM »

Posted by GIC;

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So while I do not support her decision, per se, I do support her right to make this decision.

This is exactly what the EP stated. He will not get in the way of free will. That doesn't mean that he is pro-choice. It really has nothing to do with abortion. He is just sticking up for what God gave man. It is man that chooses his destiny and not the Church.
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« Reply #181 on: February 15, 2008, 10:53:35 AM »

Free will is not license. It simply means that we are not like the animals; our decisions are not all conditioned by instinct.  Should we make murder legal and just say that we are not taking away people's free wil?
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« Reply #182 on: February 15, 2008, 11:04:26 AM »

Free will is not license. It simply means that we are not like the animals; our decisions are not all conditioned by instinct.  Should we make murder legal and just say that we are not taking away people's free wil?

  The law punishes and condemns. The Churches job isn't to uphold the law but to save people from it.
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« Reply #183 on: February 15, 2008, 11:39:52 AM »

Now-Patriarch Bartholomew was right about Christian liberty but that liberty's limit is the harm principle, or the golden rule in the form of 'don't harm others'. ('Your freedom ends where my nose begins' as my dad put it.) Many sins are none of the law's business but killing a foetus for any reason other than to save the woman's life (even rarer than before thanks to advances in medicine) is inexcusable. So on that he was wrong in implying that the law should allow it.

Exceptions for rape and incest say 'I have the right to kill you because of the horrible thing your father did'.

As for excuses for contraception the ones I read from Orthodox sound like the ones from Anglicans around the 1950s, cautious and conservative ('it's not ideal but we allow it; couples should consult their priest on it'). Before 1930 Christians were unanimous condemning it.

With the interesting exception in Roman Catholic moral theology that you can prevent conception that way if the sex is against one's will, hence the dispensation for the African nuns.
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« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2008, 11:43:43 AM »

I agree, essentially... but there were diffrences between different Romanovs. Peter I (the "Great") was definitely not Orthodox. Catherine II (also the "Great") was hardly Orthodox, too; superficially, she was very pious, atteded Divine Liturgies, had her confessor-priest, etc., but her policies were pretty much anti-Church. Her son Paul I was very different - even though he had a terrible temper and was generally feared, he had some intrinsic loyalty to the Church teachings. Alexander I was, apparently, very influenced by his Roman Catholic friends (Polish princes), and during his reign, Freemasonry flourished all over the Empire. Nicholas I was definitely Orthodox. Alexander II (the "Liberator," the Tsar who freed serfs) was an extremely nice, kind, generous, wonderfully educated man, but his relationships with the Church were very difficult because of his extra-marital affairs and then his "morganatic" secular marriage with his former mistress. Alexander III was Orthodox. Nicholas II was, of course, Orthodox.

So in short, the less Orthodox a tsar was, the more competent of ruler he or she proved to be.  For all the complaints against them, Peter I and Catherine II brought more geopolitical power and stability to Russia, both of which were highly beneficial to the church, even if indirectly.  As Orthodox as Alexander III and Nicholas II were, their poor statecraft led to the collapse of the empire and the church within the empire. 
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« Reply #185 on: February 15, 2008, 12:15:57 PM »

Now-Patriarch Bartholomew was right about Christian liberty but that liberty's limit is the harm principle, or the golden rule in the form of 'don't harm others'. ('Your freedom ends where my nose begins' as my dad put it.) Many sins are none of the law's business but killing a foetus for any reason other than to save the woman's life (even rarer than before thanks to advances in medicine) is inexcusable. So on that he was wrong in implying that the law should allow it.

I don't think he was implying any such thing. What I believe he is implying is that the church can't put up a fence to protect sinners from themselves.
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« Reply #186 on: February 15, 2008, 12:28:08 PM »

Now-Patriarch Bartholomew was right about Christian liberty but that liberty's limit is the harm principle, or the golden rule in the form of 'don't harm others'. ('Your freedom ends where my nose begins' as my dad put it.)

And the fetus' right to life ends where the woman's body begins. Just like your right to life ends at my front door if you decide to either enter or remain in my house uninvited. You do not have the right to live at the expense of another's freedom over their person.
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« Reply #187 on: February 15, 2008, 12:30:26 PM »

And the fetus' right to life ends where the woman's body begins. Just like your right to life ends at my front door if you decide to either enter or remain in my house uninvited. You do not have the right to live at the expense of another's freedom over their person.

Got a canon on that one?
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« Reply #188 on: February 15, 2008, 12:49:45 PM »

And the fetus' right to life ends where the woman's body begins. Just like your right to life ends at my front door if you decide to either enter or remain in my house uninvited. You do not have the right to live at the expense of another's freedom over their person.

Define person, please.
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« Reply #189 on: February 15, 2008, 01:29:22 PM »

At some point during gestation the fetus may acquire the computational potential of a human being, but certainly not during the first trimester; and, thus, I don't believe it can be regarded as human at that time.

That's heresy.  Do you know nothing about the Incarnation???

Our Lord Jesus Christ became FULLY human (as well as fully God) the moment he was conceived inside the womb of the Theotokos.

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« Reply #190 on: February 15, 2008, 01:37:02 PM »

And the fetus' right to life ends where the woman's body begins.

And you think that the abortionist's deadly medical instruments have the right to ENTER the unborn child's arms, legs, torso and neck and cut them into pieces?

Quote
Just like your right to life ends at my front door if you decide to either enter or remain in my house uninvited.

Where do you plan to put the severed arms, legs and head of the person who enters your house uninvited? 

You know what, I had a discussion with an atheist several years ago who used the same set of arguments.  They're lame, lame, lame.
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« Reply #191 on: February 15, 2008, 02:04:00 PM »

He will not get in the way of free will.

It should not just be the will of the mother.  And not just the will of the unborn child.  We must not forget that the Church also has the FREE WILL to protect her children.
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« Reply #192 on: February 15, 2008, 02:22:20 PM »


  The law punishes and condemns. The Churches job isn't to uphold the law but to save people from it.
Its not just a matter of religion. Its a simple matter of right and wrong, natural law. We shouldn't purposely kill innocent human beings so don't kill them. At conception it has all the chromosomes need to be human, it is technicallly an organism, and the species of that organism is homosapien. That means human. Come now people. We don't even need religion to argue this point.
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« Reply #193 on: February 15, 2008, 02:23:36 PM »

That's heresy.  Do you know nothing about the Incarnation???

Our Lord Jesus Christ became FULLY human (as well as fully God) the moment he was conceived inside the womb of the Theotokos.


GOOD POINT!!!
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« Reply #194 on: February 15, 2008, 02:24:45 PM »



You know what, I had a discussion with an atheist several years ago who used the same set of arguments.  They're lame, lame, lame.

I agree. The pro-choice position is as irrational as atheism.
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« Reply #195 on: February 15, 2008, 02:26:27 PM »

I am getting a really bad taste in my mouth from this thread. PLEASE tell me that Eastern Orthodoxy does not allow for the legality of abortion!
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« Reply #196 on: February 15, 2008, 02:49:27 PM »

I am getting a really bad taste in my mouth from this thread. PLEASE tell me that Eastern Orthodoxy does not allow for the legality of abortion! 

We don't like abortion, we think abortion is sinful (of course, just as murder is sinful yet more understandable in war, self defense, etc., the degree of understanding of abortion is left to the discretion of those hearing confession and, ultimately, to the Lord's judgment)... But as for "allow for the legality" - I don't know how we can disallow, considering we're not the State.  We understand why people want it to be lagal, and we understand that it's unlikely to change (i.e. the legality of abortion in this country), but we still try to change people's hearts (which is the most effective way to end abortion, IMO).

I think my last point above bears repeating: changing people's hearts is the most effective way to end abortion.  We can make abortion illegal, but then it will just continue "underground."  But if we change people's hearts, then they won't seek it, whether it's legal or not.  The Church wasn't designed or intended to be a legal advocacy group - the Christian revolution of the 1st-4th century was made possible through changing individual peoples' hearts - when their hearts are changed, the law will change.
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« Reply #197 on: February 15, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »

I am getting a really bad taste in my mouth from this thread. PLEASE tell me that Eastern Orthodoxy does not allow for the legality of abortion!

It doesn't, and I suspect you know this, Papist.

However, this board does allow people the freedom to express their own opinions, and these opinions do not have to be upheld as Truth by the Body of Christ.

But you know that, since you also express your opinions here....and some of those opinions are definately not shared by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #198 on: February 15, 2008, 02:57:45 PM »

It doesn't, and I suspect you know this, Papist.

However, this board does allow people the freedom to express their own opinions, and these opinions do not have to be upheld as Truth by the Body of Christ.

But you know that, since you also express your opinions here....and some of those opinions are definately not shared by the Orthodox Church.
Fr. Chris, my concern here is the statement made by the EP, not individuals on this forum. I suspect you know this.
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« Reply #199 on: February 15, 2008, 02:59:16 PM »

We don't like abortion, we think abortion is sinful (of course, just as murder is sinful yet more understandable in war, self defense, etc., the degree of understanding of abortion is left to the discretion of those hearing confession and, ultimately, to the Lord's judgment)... But as for "allow for the legality" - I don't know how we can disallow, considering we're not the State.  We understand why people want it to be lagal, and we understand that it's unlikely to change (i.e. the legality of abortion in this country), but we still try to change people's hearts (which is the most effective way to end abortion, IMO).

I think my last point above bears repeating: changing people's hearts is the most effective way to end abortion.  We can make abortion illegal, but then it will just continue "underground."  But if we change people's hearts, then they won't seek it, whether it's legal or not.  The Church wasn't designed or intended to be a legal advocacy group - the Christian revolution of the 1st-4th century was made possible through changing individual peoples' hearts - when their hearts are changed, the law will change.
So you do or do you not believe that it is a Christian's responsibility to put forth effort to change unjust laws?
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« Reply #200 on: February 15, 2008, 03:04:05 PM »

Fr. Chris, my concern here is the statement made by the EP, not individuals on this forum. I suspect you know this.

Let's look at your post:

Quote
I am getting a really bad taste in my mouth from this thread. PLEASE tell me that Eastern Orthodoxy does not allow for the legality of abortion!

No where do you define that you are commenting solely on the statement made by the EP.
You are, however, responding to posts made by individuals on this forum.



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« Reply #201 on: February 15, 2008, 03:19:38 PM »

So you do or do you not believe that it is a Christian's responsibility to put forth effort to change unjust laws?

It is the responsibility of every Christian, just as it is of every citizen, to put forth effort to change unjust laws.  But the Church itself, the collective, is to be a vehicle of salvation, not an activist group.
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« Reply #202 on: February 15, 2008, 03:29:38 PM »

It should not just be the will of the mother.  And not just the will of the unborn child.  We must not forget that the Church also has the FREE WILL to protect her children.

At what expense? Losing two people instead of one?
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« Reply #203 on: February 15, 2008, 05:32:16 PM »

You are, however, responding to posts made by individuals on this forum.

Not to pick on to GiC, but it is pretty obvious his views are well outside the mainstream of orthodox Orthodoxy.  He has pretty much said that he is a neo-platonist or something of the sort on many occasions in the public fora.  So why on earth do certain Catholic posters get almost giddy that the Orthodox Church does not consider abortion to be immoral solely based off of a few posts of GiC?

I still challenge anyone to show any evidence of an Orthodox priest, with the blessing of his bishop, explicitly stating that abortion is not immoral or counseling a woman to obtain an abortion (in non-life threatening circumstances).  Until then, I think it is fairly safe to say that the Orthodox Church's position is that abortion is immoral.

I am getting a really bad taste in my mouth from this thread. PLEASE tell me that Eastern Orthodoxy does not allow for the legality of abortion!

So where in the New Testament do you draw the notion that Christianity is anything but apolitical and that it is our duty to set up a theocracy to impose our moral values on society?  I am entirely pro-life, but I simply do not believe that trying to regulate abortion via judicial / legislative fiat is going to dramatically lower the abortion rate.  There are just too many other important issues out there for me to use abortion as the end all litmus test.   
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« Reply #204 on: February 15, 2008, 06:08:21 PM »

I still challenge anyone to show any evidence of an Orthodox priest, with the blessing of his bishop, explicitly stating that abortion is not immoral or counseling a woman to obtain an abortion (in non-life threatening circumstances).  Until then, I think it is fairly safe to say that the Orthodox Church's position is that abortion is immoral.

So where in the New Testament do you draw the notion that Christianity is anything but apolitical and that it is our duty to set up a theocracy to impose our moral values on society?  I am entirely pro-life, but I simply do not believe that trying to regulate abortion via judicial / legislative fiat is going to dramatically lower the abortion rate.  There are just too many other important issues out there for me to use abortion as the end all litmus test.   

Agreed.  Well put.
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« Reply #205 on: February 15, 2008, 06:44:47 PM »

The whole point of free will was, and is, to choose God. In examining Genesis, Adam and Eve were punished when they used their free will to choose something not in line with the Will of God. Unless the mother's life is in danger, abortion does not seem to be in line with the Will of God, even if people want to argue that a woman's body belongs to her. Everything that we are and everything that we have came from the Lord. Is it honorable to then throw unborn lives back in His face?

Btw, I believe contraception displeases the Lord, but is much better than abortion. This is where the brain that God gave us comes in, through self-control. But abstaining from practicing abortion and supporting it, this is where the grace of God through compassion comes in.

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« Reply #206 on: February 15, 2008, 06:50:57 PM »

Got a canon on that one?

The 13th Canon of St. Voltaire. Grin
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« Reply #207 on: February 15, 2008, 07:07:25 PM »

And you think that the abortionist's deadly medical instruments have the right to ENTER the unborn child's arms, legs, torso and neck and cut them into pieces?

I could buy that argument...but the woman still has a right to remove the fetus from her body. I don't know if letting it lay there and die on it's own is an improvement in the system, but I may be able to agree that this would be a better approach on a philosophical (though not practical) level.

Quote
Where do you plan to put the severed arms, legs and head of the person who enters your house uninvited? 

I throw them in the front yard, their family can pick them up. j/k...the coroner will come and pick them up.

Quote
You know what, I had a discussion with an atheist several years ago who used the same set of arguments.  They're lame, lame, lame.

More lame than 'God told me so'? I don't think so.
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« Reply #208 on: February 15, 2008, 07:08:47 PM »

Not to pick on to GiC, but it is pretty obvious his views are well outside the mainstream of orthodox Orthodoxy.  He has pretty much said that he is a neo-platonist or something of the sort on many occasions in the public fora.  So why on earth do certain Catholic posters get almost giddy that the Orthodox Church does not consider abortion to be immoral solely based off of a few posts of GiC?

Agreed, I don't think I ever claimed to speak for the Church.
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« Reply #209 on: February 15, 2008, 07:14:26 PM »

I would barter with GIC for those body parts..and then make one of those Neo-Modern blah blah-French Chic sculptures in my front yard. THEN, it would attract those nasty starlings, and I would shoot them!
(gets a crazy look in her eye and drools)  Wink Cheesy

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« Reply #210 on: February 15, 2008, 07:23:38 PM »

I would barter with GIC for those body parts..and then make one of those Neo-Modern blah blah-French Chic sculptures in my front yard. THEN, it would attract those nasty starlings, and I would shoot them!
(gets a crazy look in her eye and drools)  Wink Cheesy

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Wow, you and GiC, a match made in....well, I dunno if heaven is where it was made... Tongue
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« Reply #211 on: February 15, 2008, 07:27:18 PM »

Let's look at your post:

No where do you define that you are commenting solely on the statement made by the EP.
You are, however, responding to posts made by individuals on this forum.




Ok. I see your point. However, it all bothers me because of how it relates back to the EP's statements.
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« Reply #212 on: February 15, 2008, 07:29:50 PM »

Not to pick on to GiC, but it is pretty obvious his views are well outside the mainstream of orthodox Orthodoxy.  He has pretty much said that he is a neo-platonist or something of the sort on many occasions in the public fora.  So why on earth do certain Catholic posters get almost giddy that the Orthodox Church does not consider abortion to be immoral solely based off of a few posts of GiC?

Not Giddy at all. I feel for those in the EO Church who profess the Orthodox faith while the EP is basically professing the pro-choice position. Doesn't sound like a fun position to be in at all.
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« Reply #213 on: February 15, 2008, 07:33:47 PM »

Veniamin, do we kinda remind you of scenes from The Thing?  Grin Wink

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« Reply #214 on: February 15, 2008, 07:43:49 PM »

Not Giddy at all. I feel for those in the EO Church who profess the Orthodox faith while the EP is basically professing the pro-choice position. Doesn't sound like a fun position to be in at all.

*sigh* Where / when has the Patriarch said that abortion is anything but immoral?  The most I got out of the statement posted in this thread was to not be judgmental.  If the most that people can put forth is ONE ambiguous quote to to the contrary, maybe conventional wisdom would dictate that the obvious answer (that the Orthodox Church is opposed to abortion) would make sense. 
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« Reply #215 on: February 15, 2008, 08:00:27 PM »

We don't like abortion, we think abortion is sinful (of course, just as murder is sinful yet more understandable in war, self defense, etc., the degree of understanding of abortion is left to the discretion of those hearing confession and, ultimately, to the Lord's judgment)... But as for "allow for the legality" - I don't know how we can disallow, considering we're not the State.  We understand why people want it to be lagal, and we understand that it's unlikely to change (i.e. the legality of abortion in this country), but we still try to change people's hearts (which is the most effective way to end abortion, IMO).

I think my last point above bears repeating: changing people's hearts is the most effective way to end abortion.  We can make abortion illegal, but then it will just continue "underground."  But if we change people's hearts, then they won't seek it, whether it's legal or not.  The Church wasn't designed or intended to be a legal advocacy group - the Christian revolution of the 1st-4th century was made possible through changing individual peoples' hearts - when their hearts are changed, the law will change.

True.  But then again, outlawing adult murder doesn't stop it, it just goes on "underground," and yet we ban that.

We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts of the Apostles.
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« Reply #216 on: February 15, 2008, 08:31:17 PM »

True.  But then again, outlawing adult murder doesn't stop it, it just goes on "underground," and yet we ban that.

As long as one's wearing a uniform, killing isn't illegal - but that's another topic altogether.

There is not a single well ordered society in which homicide isn't regulate.  Homicide is also fairly simple to regulate in most cases.  On the other hand, abortion is much like other issues of personal morality like sex, prostitution, drugs etc. that are nearly impossible to ever really regulate.  Even in states like Ceasescu's Romania in which there were draconian anti-abortion laws, abortions remained fairly common. 

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We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts of the Apostles.

Irrelevant to the conversation here.  Other than GiC, who here has said that abortion is an option for Orthodox Christians? 

And I'm still waiting for the verse about Christian Sharia from the NT.   
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« Reply #217 on: February 15, 2008, 08:50:53 PM »

As long as one's wearing a uniform, killing isn't illegal - but that's another topic altogether.

There is not a single well ordered society in which homicide isn't regulate.  Homicide is also fairly simple to regulate in most cases.  On the other hand, abortion is much like other issues of personal morality like sex, prostitution, drugs etc. that are nearly impossible to ever really regulate.  Even in states like Ceasescu's Romania in which there were draconian anti-abortion laws, abortions remained fairly common.

Sure.  All you had to do is been an informant. My ex-sister in-law was securitate, and had the permission.  My ex-wife's neighbor had one too: she had two sons that were born deaf.  Ceaucescu didn't want "defective" children around.

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Irrelevant to the conversation here.  Other than GiC, who here has said that abortion is an option for Orthodox Christians? 

And I'm still waiting for the verse about Christian Sharia from the NT.   

Rev. 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyati'ra write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 "'I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jez'ebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings; 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyati'ra, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay upon you any other burden; 25 only hold fast what you have, until I come. 26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
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« Reply #218 on: February 15, 2008, 09:07:54 PM »

Sure.  All you had to do is been an informant. My ex-sister in-law was securitate, and had the permission.  My ex-wife's neighbor had one too: she had two sons that were born deaf.  Ceaucescu didn't want "defective" children around.

Those are pretty isolated situations.  The point remains that for the average woman in Ceausescu's Romania, abortion was illegal yet was also routine.  There was a recent study that's already been linked in the other threads on abortion about legality doing little to nothing to affect the actual rate of abortions in a country.  That is why I still don't see why, and nobody here has made a case for, using abortion legislation as a litmus test.   And quite frankly, I think collaboration with the securitate is far more repulsive than just about anything else.


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Rev. 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyati'ra write...

Relevance?  The passage in question is not about political power.  The Christians in question had no political power.  It was about allowing someone with non-christian values to teach and corrupt the local Christian community.  Again who here has said that abortion is an acceptable choice for Orthodox Christians? 
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« Reply #219 on: February 15, 2008, 09:18:22 PM »

Sure.  All you had to do is been an informant. My ex-sister in-law was securitate, and had the permission.  My ex-wife's neighbor had one too: she had two sons that were born deaf.  Ceaucescu didn't want "defective" children around.

This is probably a really dumb question, but I'm pretty out of date regarding specific tests that are available during pregnancy. Is it possible for anyone to know with absolute certainty that they are going to give birth to a "defective" (in this case, deaf) child? 
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« Reply #220 on: February 15, 2008, 09:37:47 PM »

This is probably a really dumb question, but I'm pretty out of date regarding specific tests that are available during pregnancy. Is it possible for anyone to know with absolute certainty that they are going to give birth to a "defective" (in this case, deaf) child? 

At that time no, in this day and age it depends on the defect...not sure about deafness, could depend on the specific cause.
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« Reply #221 on: February 15, 2008, 09:47:51 PM »

At what expense? Losing two people instead of one?

Okay, let's use statistics for the sake of argument.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

According to the above study, of all abortion cases, only a mere 2.8% involves health problems for the mother. 

So assuming that there have been 40,000,000 abortion cases and that abortion was NEVER an option, you have the POTENTIAL of saving as much as 38,880,000 unborn children at the expense of 1,120,000 martyred mothers.

In other words,

38,880,000 children saved > 1,120,000 mothers sacrificed

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« Reply #222 on: February 15, 2008, 09:55:46 PM »

Those are pretty isolated situations.  The point remains that for the average woman in Ceausescu's Romania, abortion was illegal yet was also routine.  There was a recent study that's already been linked in the other threads on abortion about legality doing little to nothing to affect the actual rate of abortions in a country.  That is why I still don't see why, and nobody here has made a case for, using abortion legislation as a litmus test.   And quite frankly, I think collaboration with the securitate is far more repulsive than just about anything else.

Condemning something doesn't mean you want to put it into law.  More than anything else, the Church needs to make a stand and guide her flock, especially in these desperate times.

Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born.
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« Reply #223 on: February 15, 2008, 10:15:26 PM »

Okay, let's use statistics for the sake of argument.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

According to the above study, of all abortion cases, only a mere 2.8% involves health problems for the mother. 

So assuming that there have been 40,000,000 abortion cases and that abortion was NEVER an option, you have the POTENTIAL of saving as much as 38,880,000 unborn children at the expense of 1,120,000 martyred mothers.

In other words,

38,880,000 children saved > 1,120,000 mothers sacrificed


I don't think my point went through correctly. I wasn't defending abortion. This is exactly how papist viewed the EP's statement. I was defending the salvation of the mothers that have went through with abortion to later regret what they did.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #224 on: February 15, 2008, 10:20:21 PM »

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I could buy that argument...but the woman still has a right to remove the fetus from her body. I don't know if letting it lay there and die on it's own is an improvement in the system,

The baby should not be allowed to die on his/her own because that would be negligence/child abuse/murder. 

The ideal system would be to have the unwanted child taken out of the mother's womb UNHARMED, and have the little baby live his/her life as a new citizen.  Funding for the life support system can come from people who plan to adopt.

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but I may be able to agree that this would be a better approach on a philosophical (though not practical) level.

That's good to know.
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