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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion  (Read 57111 times) Average Rating: 1
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TomS
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« on: April 27, 2004, 06:01:59 PM »

I was just wondering --

At services this week a Priest (not going to say who or where) was talking about abortion ('cause of the march here in DC last weekend) and said that it is not a "black and white issue".

That in certain cases, such as when a pregnancy could be harmful to the mother or even for PSYCHOLOGICAL reasons (i.e. rape, incest) that economy could be granted if it was first discussed with the Priest.

Have any of your heard this position espoused by any other Orthodox Priest?  Huh
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2004, 06:09:03 PM »

Abortion is always murder. Period.  If an operation is taken that will result in the death of the baby is needed to save the mother's life, then it is acceptable to do so because the intent is not to kill the baby but to save the mother.

An abortion for rape or incest is unacceptable but he might have meant that economy can be applied to the penance associated with an abortion (traditionally seven years without communion) if these circumstances were there.  Such would be consistent with Trullo canon 102.

However, to suggest that abortion might be "the best possible choice" in a case of rape or incest is ludicrous and is based on false reasoning and false thinking, especially because in my experience (my former parish church works with Project Rachel, post-abortion reconciliation ministry) when a woman has an abortion for rape thinking it will make things better it usually tends to end up causing her a double pain because the baby--part of her and her life--is now gone (again, I am basing this on personal experience with women in this program and what they said).

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2004, 06:15:52 PM »

Well, he did not say that it was NOT murder.

I also forgot to mention that he said use Birth control:

"Do what you need to do to NOT get pregnant in the first place. There are so many methods available nowadays to help you not get pregnant".



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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2004, 06:32:05 PM »

Ha, that priest really is confused.
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2004, 06:53:13 PM »

Well, he did not say that it was NOT murder.

I also forgot to mention that he said use Birth control:

"Do what you need to do to NOT get pregnant in the first place. There are so many methods available nowadays to help you not get pregnant".

IF he was my priest, I would ask for confirmation of this from my bishop.

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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2004, 07:14:10 PM »

Well, he did not say that it was NOT murder.

I also forgot to mention that he said use Birth control:

"Do what you need to do to NOT get pregnant in the first place. There are so many methods available nowadays to help you not get pregnant".

Committing a lesser evil (contraception) to avoid a greater evil (abortion)? Obviously the ideal would be to NOT do the sinning (any of the sins possible in this scenario) in the first place. Not that this is a good reasoning, but the only reasoning I can come up with for why he'd say such a thing.

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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 07:45:29 PM »

Quote
Committing a lesser evil (contraception) to avoid a greater evil (abortion)?

For an odd twist, there is a thread over on CF (IIRC in the RC forum) where it is asked if it would be OK to take contaceptives because you were at high risk for rape ?
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2004, 08:29:05 PM »

I met with a GOA priest to discuss my interest in Orthodoxy, and when I asked him about the Orthodox teaching on abortion and birth control, he made it very clear that Abortion is murder and is a serious sin, but he said the Orthodox Church has no problem if a couple does not want to have a baby, and chooses to use a preventative method of birth control.

I was surprised, but a OCA priest told me the same thing, and if I might add , the Coptic Church also holds this view: that there is nothing wrong with preventative methods of birth control. Even the ROAC priest I spoke with at Dormition Skete didn't seem all that against birth control. The only Orthodox priest I have heard clearly condemn birth control was a ROCOR one.

But thank God, I have never run into an Orthodox priest that didn't clearly condemn abortion, as murder.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2004, 08:45:58 PM »

For an odd twist, there is a thread over on CF (IIRC in the RC forum) where it is asked if it would be OK to take contaceptives because you were at high risk for rape ?

The RC's used to let nuns in Africa take birth control pills for this reason.  When they found out that birth control pills can (could) cause abortions*, however, they stopped the practice.

anastasios

*in a small number of cases the pill can (could) lead the already-fertilized fetus to not implant.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2004, 08:47:54 PM »

I met with a GOA priest to discuss my interest in Orthodoxy, and when I asked him about the Orthodox teaching on abortion and birth control, he made it very clear that Abortion is murder and is a serious sin, but he said the Orthodox Church has no problem if a couple does not want to have a baby, and chooses to use a preventative method of birth control.

I was surprised, but a OCA priest told me the same thing, and if I might add , the Coptic Church also holds this view: that there is nothing wrong with preventative methods of birth control. Even the ROAC priest I spoke with at Dormition Skete didn't seem all that against birth control. The only Orthodox priest I have heard clearly condemn birth control was a ROCOR one.

But thank God, I have never run into an Orthodox priest that didn't clearly condemn abortion, as murder.

The GOA priest and the OCA priest have obviously never read their churches' official statements on the subject.  While the don't overtly condemn contraception, they discourage it and say it must only be for really overtly compelling reasons, and that it is still missing the mark of what GOd intended for marriage.  Any priest saying the Church has "no" problem with it is just uninformed.  Having studied in a seminary now for 2 years it is apparent how this could be the case--some students just don't pay attention.

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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2004, 08:52:44 PM »

Any priest saying the Church has "no" problem with it is just uninformed.

Since the Priest who said this graduated from Catholic University in the early 1950's and his Associate Priest in the 1970's, I doubt that they are "uninformed"

Sounds to me like the Church in the "real world" may be modifying its views.
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2004, 09:12:37 PM »

Since the Priest who said this graduated from Catholic University in the early 1950's and his Associate Priest in the 1970's, I doubt that they are "uninformed"

Sounds to me like the Church in the "real world" may be modifying its views.

The "real world" has a way of molding Christians into something very unlike Christ.

We are not supposed to be conformed to its image, but to His.
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2004, 10:05:25 PM »

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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2004, 03:52:06 AM »

I suggest you contact the bishop this priest is under and inform him of this priest's views, wait for the dust to settle and then ask the priest again Wink
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2004, 06:19:48 AM »

Well, Tom, my former pastor was a Greek New Calendarist - one of the more liberal groups of Orthodox - yet he was not very enthusiastic about birth control. He said it could be an accepted "necessary evil" after one has had a few kids, but was not promoting it as "acceptable". Clerics have only relatively recently accepted birth control; in the day of St. John Chrysostom, it was given severe penances and heavily criticized. And the Pill (and maybe also IUDs in some way, I'm not sure) can cause abortions, so it should be avoided like the plague. It apparently also causes birth defects; one of my relations was born with no hair, apparently because of her mother's previous use of the Pill.

As for abortion, it is murder. The Church is very clear on this issue. Only when the mother's life is in danger is it reluctantly tolerated. Even then, a mother who gives her life so her child won't be aborted is considered a saint, and a mother who doesn't may be assigned a penance.

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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2004, 04:25:04 PM »

. . . I was surprised, but a OCA priest told me the same thing, and if I might add , the Coptic Church also holds this view: that there is nothing wrong with preventative methods of birth control.

I'm surprised.  This is certainly not how things were explained to me by my parish priest, who grew up with, and is currently secretary to, his Eminence, Archbishop Dmitri (OCA diocese of the South).  My priest's council usually reflects the teaching of the Archbishop.

He explained that Orthodoxy teaches that the married couple are to cooperate with/remain open to the creative and life-giving work of the Holy Spirit, and that this generally implies not placing impediments in the way of contraception.  Contraception is never the ideal, and is never to be treated lightly, or publicly preached/discussed as the "norm."  

However, in cases where pregnancy would endanger the health of the mother, or cause other grave difficulties, and where the unity of the couple would likely be seriously damaged by long-term, total abstinence, the Church may apply economy.  This is never to be confused with the ideal, though.

The explanation given by Archbishop Kallistos in Orthodoxy reflects this position, too, I believe.  Many of the Serbian hierarchs take even harder lines against contraceptive use.

I have never myself encountered Orthodox leaders willing to dismiss contraceptive use as totally unproblematic.  I'm suprised you seem to have run into so many, Ben.
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2004, 04:28:29 AM »

Please forgive my ignorance, if anyone is still reading this string...

Is it the OCA's position that contraception (example, condoms) in the absence of any known marital stress or risk of a problem pregnancy is a sin?  What of the other Orthodox churches?  

BTW - you can read about the risk of spontaneous abortion for any birth-control pill on the documentation you can request at the pharmacist.  I did so and was surprised, so my wife and I stopped using the pill.
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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2004, 05:08:46 AM »

I was surprised, but a OCA priest told me the same thing, and if I might add , the Coptic Church also holds this view: that there is nothing wrong with preventative methods of birth control.

I would be interested in your source for the Coptic Orthodox pov. Generally I would have expected most priests to be very conservative on this and certainly not make dogmatic statements outside the confines of the relationship of a person with their priest.

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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2008, 02:15:40 AM »

Any need to squeeze a priest in there somewhere?  I wouldn't trust an OB who doubles as an abortionist, for instance.

Gods forbid! Surely someone who supports abortion cannot be a competent medical doctor. Heck, I'm probably a bad engineer because I'm pro-choice.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? Roll Eyes


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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2008, 02:37:00 AM »

Gods forbid! Surely someone who supports abortion cannot be a competent medical doctor. Heck, I'm probably a bad engineer because I'm pro-choice.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? Roll Eyes
Is not the vow to protect human life intrinsic to the ethics of every physician's practice, such that those doctors who violate this sacred calling should not be trusted?

Is it nonsense for an Orthodox Christian to be guided by the traditional faith of the Orthodox Church (e.g., her ancient and consistent opposition to voluntary abortion, an opposition that mandated that those who have an abortion, those who perform an abortion, and those who assist in procuring an abortion are to be excommunicated as murderers and accomplices to murder)?
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2008, 02:41:28 AM »

Is not the vow to protect human life intrinsic to the ethics of every physician's practice, such that those doctors who violate this sacred calling should not be trusted?

Is it nonsense for an Orthodox Christian to be guided by the traditional faith of the Orthodox Church (e.g., her ancient and consistent opposition to voluntary abortion, an opposition that mandated that those who have an abortion, those who perform an abortion, and those who assist in procuring an abortion are to be excommunicated as murderers and accomplices to murder)?

And how does any of this relate to a doctor's competence in their field?
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2008, 03:53:58 AM »

And how does any of this relate to a doctor's competence in their field?
And how does competence alone make a doctor worthy of trust?
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2008, 04:07:10 AM »

And how does competence alone make a doctor worthy of trust?

It certainly makes his medical opinions and recommendations credible. If one wants to depart from sound medical and scientific advice for purely idological reasons, that's their right, but I would think that even those people would want to hear said sound and objective medical advice first.
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2008, 04:10:23 AM »

It certainly makes his medical opinions and recommendations credible. If one wants to depart from sound medical and scientific advice for purely idological reasons, that's their right, but I would think that even those people would want to hear said sound and objective medical advice first.
And how is abortion not a departure from sound medicine and science for purely ideological reasons?
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2008, 04:16:45 AM »

And how is abortion not a departure from sound medicine and science for purely ideological reasons?

Abortion is just another medical tool, one that is prudent for an OBGYN to recommend at times; that they can recognize this where as many religious fundamentalists cannot is but evidence of their objectivity. If a doctor does find it appropriate to recommend abortion they generally have a very good reason, it is not a typical recommendation.

Surely everyone would want to here this medical objective opinion, free from the ideological constraints of passé 'moral' norms...even if they ultimately disagree they can at least make an informed decision on the matter and better understand the risks of such a decision and the appropriate medical precautions that will be necessary.
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2008, 08:28:50 PM »

Abortion is just another medical tool, one that is prudent for an OBGYN to recommend at times; that they can recognize this where as many religious fundamentalists cannot is but evidence of their objectivity. If a doctor does find it appropriate to recommend abortion they generally have a very good reason, it is not a typical recommendation.

Surely everyone would want to here this medical objective opinion, free from the ideological constraints of passé 'moral' norms...even if they ultimately disagree they can at least make an informed decision on the matter and better understand the risks of such a decision and the appropriate medical precautions that will be necessary.
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2008, 09:25:35 PM »

*
As a Secret Agent for the Phanar you will know that your Patriarch is pro-choice (to his eternal shame, maybe even his damnation.)
"Save the trees and kill the humans."
Pro-choice and pro-life are two different things. All pro-choice is, is the ability for one to exercise there free will. I believe God gave us that ability first. laugh
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 10:28:27 PM »

Pro-choice and pro-life are two different things. All pro-choice is, is the ability for one to exercise there free will. I believe God gave us that ability first. laugh
*
Well then, to be perfectly clear --  the Patriarch of the Greeks and the First among Equals believes that married people have the right to choose to kill their unborn children.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2008, 10:37:09 PM »

*
As a Secret Agent for the Phanar you will know that your Patriarch is pro-choice (to his eternal shame, maybe even his damnation.)
"Save the trees and kill the humans."

While I would like nothing more than for you to be right on this matter and for His All-Holiness to advocate freedom in this matter to the same extent I do; however, I have yet to see anything come out of Constantinople that would suggest that His All-Holiness has advocated a pro-choice position. His actions seem to imply that he rightly believes the issue to be primarially political and thus does not directly involve himself in these affairs.

But if you can prove me wrong in this assessment, I pray you to do so by all means. In fact, I pray my assessment is incorrect and that it is, indeed, as you say.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2008, 10:45:05 PM »

While I would like nothing more than for you to be right on this matter and for His All-Holiness to advocate freedom in this matter to the same extent I do; however, I have yet to see anything come out of Constantinople that would suggest that His All-Holiness has advocated a pro-choice position. His actions seem to imply that he rightly believes the issue to be primarially political and thus does not directly involve himself in these affairs.

But if you can prove me wrong in this assessment, I pray you to do so by all means. In fact, I pray my assessment is incorrect and that it is, indeed, as you say.
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At the time he was Metropolitan of Chalcedon and accompanying Patriarch Demetrios on his US tour as his closest aide.



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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 10:48:43 PM »

I know.... Strike that.  We all know your stance on when a fetus is really human and deserving of protection, and it happens to not be shared by the majority on the board.  I, er, we also know that you like stoking the fire as much as possible.  Leave this one alone.
I'm with cleveland on this call, GiC.  We know your position and tactics quite well, so you would do well to leave this thread alone.
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 10:56:50 PM »

*
The pro-death words of His Most Divine All-Holiness of "Save the Penguins" fame are recorded in The San Francisco Chronicle,  Friday 20 July 1990, Section: News: Page A1.

At the time he was Metropolitan of Chalcedon and accompanying Patriarch Demetrios on his US tour as his closest aide.

You have certainly sparked my interest, unfortunately the website only has articles going back to 1995. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the article that you could either post or scan and e-mail to me?

If not I may see if I can find one of the research firms in the city to find it on microfilm and send me a copy, I could possibly get it $30 or so. If the article started on A1 do you know if that was the entirety of the article or if it was continued on another page?
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 11:13:03 PM »

Gods forbid! Surely someone who supports abortion cannot be a competent medical doctor. Heck, I'm probably a bad engineer because I'm pro-choice.

Engineer. Hmm.  Explains a lot.

By all accounts Dr. Mengela was quite a competent doctor, if the Hippocratic oath doesn't count.

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Where do you come up with this nonsense? Roll Eyes

One of God's Top Ten Don't Do's.

Sorry, I'm not hiring "Dr." Kovorkian in geriatrics, and I'm not putting "Fr." Gagan (spelling?) in charge of the church youth group.
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 11:16:53 PM »

It certainly makes his medical opinions and recommendations credible. If one wants to depart from sound medical and scientific advice for purely idological reasons, that's their right, but I would think that even those people would want to hear said sound and objective medical advice first.

Dr. Kevorkian has some for you.  (ooops!  can't say Dr., wasn't his license revoked?  But then again, he still had that medical advicea and expertise).
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 11:21:35 PM »

Engineer. Hmm.  Explains a lot.

Well, my undergraduate degree is in theoretical mathematics. Then I dropped out of school to go to seminary, so I'm kinda stuck as an engineer now. But that's how life works, we get to live with our bad decisions.

Quote
By all accounts Dr. Mengela was quite a competent doctor, if the Hippocratic oath doesn't count.

I wouldn't have any medical reservations about going to him as my personal physician...I just wouldn't give him power of attorney over me. Wink
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 11:27:28 PM »

Well, my undergraduate degree is in theoretical mathematics. Then I dropped out of school to go to seminary, so I'm kinda stuck as an engineer now. But that's how life works, we get to live with our bad decisions.

I wouldn't have any medical reservations about going to him as my personal physician...I just wouldn't give him power of attorney over me. Wink

What makes you think he's going to worry about such niceties?  If the Netherlands is any indication....

I remember at the U of C I knew several who went into physics, and then were dropping like flies.  Only one made it all the way (a devote Copt btw).  The other one who came closest was the one who switched to mathematics in senior year.  Said that the further you went into physics, the less human you felt.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 11:45:19 PM »

What makes you think he's going to worry about such niceties?  If the Netherlands is any indication....

LOL...well, I guess I'm assuming that I can take the liability and malpractice laws of the United States for granted.

Quote
I remember at the U of C I knew several who went into physics, and then were dropping like flies.  Only one made it all the way (a devote Copt btw).  The other one who came closest was the one who switched to mathematics in senior year.  Said that the further you went into physics, the less human you felt.

I always enjoyed physics, I had enough credits for a minor minus two lab classes which I refused to take...I love the theory, the labs bored me to death. I guess I could see that with physics, everything, including ourselves, is reduced to the most fundamental element...in the end there is no difference between a rock and a human and quite probably no difference between a human and the void of space. Mathematics, on the other hand, deals with pure thought, it ultimately denies all absolutes, including the universe that physicists take as granted, everything becomes relative, everything becomes questionable. It's really a religion of sorts, and once one is finally initiated it is impossible to abandon. Amongst my mathematics professors were Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus but in the end they all had the same philosophy, the same theology, the same faith...they simply viewed their personal religion as a maifestation of mathematical principles.
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2008, 12:06:30 AM »

You have certainly sparked my interest, unfortunately the website only has articles going back to 1995. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the article that you could either post or scan and e-mail to me?

If not I may see if I can find one of the research firms in the city to find it on microfilm and send me a copy, I could possibly get it $30 or so. If the article started on A1 do you know if that was the entirety of the article or if it was continued on another page?
I really hesitate to publicise the pro-abortion words of this evil Patriarch.  You can do a seach on the Indiana List using   Bartholomew and abortion

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?S1=ORTHODOX&D=0
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2008, 01:07:45 AM »

I really hesitate to publicise the pro-abortion words of this evil Patriarch.  You can do a seach on the Indiana List using   Bartholomew and abortion

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?S1=ORTHODOX&D=0

Seeing as you stated elsewhere that you were a Priest (ROCOR, I believe? Which last I checked was in communion with Moscow which is in communion with Constantinople), I don't think that it would be too much to expect you to refer to our Lord and Patriarch who is ranked First amongst the Bishops of the Christian Church, His All-Holiness Bartholomew the Ecumenical Patriarch, Archbishop of Constantinople and New Rome, by the proper honorific: 'His All-Holiness'. I am certain that you were simply unaware of this and thus decided to call him the 'evil Patriarch', for lack of a better term, but I presume, now that this has been clarified, that in the future His All-Holiness will be refered to by his proper title.

Now on to the public statements of His All-Holiness, I fear that the only quote I could find was from a different date and on a different page and is as follows:

'"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Barthlomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. “We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion.' (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90
p.A22)

Hardly sounds pro-choice to me, sounds more pastoral than anything. He gives the typical pro-life line up front, then basically says that it's a political issue that's none of our business; there are indeed many commonly accepted reasons that one might have an abortion, such as the woman's health, in that instance very few would object and it should come as no surprise that His All-Holiness would be supportive in such a situation. In any case, doesn't sound pro-choice to me, it seems to be a non-partisan pastoral approach to a pro-life position.
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2008, 01:23:55 AM »

Seeing as you stated elsewhere that you were a Priest (ROCOR, I believe? Which last I checked was in communion with Moscow which is in communion with Constantinople), I don't think that it would be too much to expect you to refer to our Lord and Patriarch who is ranked First amongst the Bishops of the Christian Church, His All-Holiness Bartholomew the Ecumenical Patriarch, Archbishop of Constantinople and New Rome, by the proper honorific: 'His All-Holiness'. I am certain that you were simply unaware of this and thus decided to call him the 'evil Patriarch', for lack of a better term, but I presume, now that this has been clarified, that in the future His All-Holiness will be refered to by his proper title.

Hear, hear!


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« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2008, 01:29:30 AM »

I really hesitate to publicise the pro-abortion words of this evil Patriarch.  You can do a seach on the Indiana List using   Bartholomew and abortion

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?S1=ORTHODOX&D=0

Please don't go coy on us. If you are bold enough to accuse the Patriarch of being pro-choice, I believe you should be prepared to back up your accusation and supply the relevant article.
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« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2008, 01:34:12 AM »

Seeing as you stated elsewhere that you were a Priest (ROCOR, I believe? Which last I checked was in communion with Moscow which is in communion with Constantinople), I don't think that it would be too much to expect you to refer to our Lord and Patriarch who is ranked First amongst the Bishops of the Christian Church, His All-Holiness Bartholomew the Ecumenical Patriarch, Archbishop of Constantinople and New Rome, by the proper honorific: 'His All-Holiness'. I am certain that you were simply unaware of this and thus decided to call him the 'evil Patriarch', for lack of a better term, but I presume, now that this has been clarified, that in the future His All-Holiness will be refered to by his proper title.

Now on to the public statements of His All-Holiness, I fear that the only quote I could find was from a different date and on a different page and is as follows:

'"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Barthlomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. “We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion.' (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90
p.A22)

Hardly sounds pro-choice to me, sounds more pastoral than anything. He gives the typical pro-life line up front, then basically says that it's a political issue that's none of our business; there are indeed many commonly accepted reasons that one might have an abortion, such as the woman's health, in that instance very few would object and it should come as no surprise that His All-Holiness would be supportive in such a situation. In any case, doesn't sound pro-choice to me, it seems to be a non-partisan pastoral approach to a pro-life position.

And there are many reasons why Jeffry Daumer should have killed all those women.  What you call pastoral sounds like relativism to me.  A mother can determine whether her child is to live.  God gave the parents a child and they kill it.   
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 01:40:31 AM by Jimmy » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2008, 01:59:18 AM »

I really hesitate to publicise the pro-abortion words of this evil Patriarch.  You can do a seach on the Indiana List using   Bartholomew and abortion

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?S1=ORTHODOX&D=0
With all due respects, Father, citing your own posts on other fora isn't proper evidence to support your claim that Patriarch Bartholomew is pro-choice.  You really need to post a link to the news article you quoted in those posts so we can cross-reference your citation.

In addition (putting on my moderator's hat here), many of our posters honor Patriarch Bartholomew as His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.  I will permit you on the Faith board to accuse him of being pro-choice, even if you can't back this up with proper evidence, but to call him evil is an ad hominem that I, the moderator of this section, cannot tolerate.

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« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 10:59:18 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2008, 02:13:52 AM »

That wasn't my point.  My point was that the pro-choice advocates use the same reasoning to justify what they justify.  I don't think the justification is valid.  

Justifying what? I was sharing my experiences of being pregnant. You have jumped the gun on this one.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:14:14 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2008, 02:21:40 AM »

And there are many reasons why Jeffry Daumer should have killed all those women.  What you call pastoral sounds like relativism to me.  A mother can determine whether her child is to live.  God gave the parents a child and they kill it.   

If it can be demonstrated that he did so in defence of his life, liberty, or property then by all means I would argue that he did have such a right and related statues are on the books in every state.
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