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Question: Do Orthodox have eucharistic miracles on display?
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« on: January 12, 2011, 11:53:47 AM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
Thank you-
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 12:02:09 PM »

What is a Eucharistic miracle?
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 12:05:13 PM »

What is a Eucharistic miracle?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 01:08:07 PM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.
Quote
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
No. Yes.

Does the "invisible church" have them?
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 01:09:01 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 01:11:35 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2011, 01:26:22 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 01:35:30 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.

I don't think it is troubling, but I also don't see it as a "defect" of the Orthodox.

Eucharistic Adoration, is not only a spiritual prayer than can be "enjoyed" by the prayerful. It's an implementation, foremost, of the "lex orandi, lex credendi" rule. And Unfortunately, in the West, there has been a sever drop in belief in the real presence. Eucharistic Adoration is then beneficial to help restore and reinforce that understanding. Something that hasn't been a problem in the East, but has become, like iconoclasm, a problem in the West.

These Catholics that see it as a defect, don't understand it's purpose, but merely compare all traditions, have a spiritual love for "EA", and, from their experiences, have a hard time understanding how anyone would not have a similar practice.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2011, 02:32:42 PM »



Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2011, 03:06:30 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2011, 03:11:17 PM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.

What/where are they?
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2011, 03:25:39 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2011, 03:44:06 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2011, 04:49:12 PM »


I still don't get it.. I will try to read this again.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2011, 04:55:32 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
Right, we have Eucharistic miracles, we have Eucharistic adoration, although we ordinarily do not have eucharistic exposition outside of the context of Communion, but that does not eliminate that there is adoration, and within a communion context even exposition.  For example, the first part of Presanctified Liturgy has Eucharistic exposition and adoration, as the presanctified eucharist is removed, set upon the paten and venerated with prayer and incensation (however, in those whose practice is to draw the curtain or have high gates closed, only those inside the altar can actually see it exposed upon the altar).  Likewise, at the Presanctified Entrance, there is Eucharistic adoration.   
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.

Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 09:11:33 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 10:50:00 PM »

the only reference i have ever seen to Eucharitic adoration in the EO is a line in the Way of the Piligrim, when he stops at the home of an ill person who receiving communion from the reserved sacramrent so he may "pray in the presence of th eHoly Gifts".
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 09:24:49 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     

The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 10:58:44 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     

The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.

I have heard from a couple of priests that should the Eucharist ever appear physically as anything other than wine and bread, while although it would be considered a miracle, it would not be considered a compliment and the liturgy would need to be suspended and the Bishop called immediately.  Take all that for what it is worth as I do not have a direct source to provide.
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 11:18:34 PM »

A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 11:26:20 PM »

The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."

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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 11:45:50 PM »

Quote
that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2011, 11:51:16 PM »

Mother of God of the Inexhaustible Chalice

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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 12:01:26 AM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 12:02:03 AM »

The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."



Thank you.
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 12:02:32 AM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

That was sort of a cheap shot, but I nonetheless laughed.  laugh
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 12:03:32 AM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

Ouch!  Shocked
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2011, 12:06:11 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

It's an innovation.  Wink

But seriously, often Orthodox have a problem with saving the Body and Blood of Christ for any other purpose other than what He instructed them to be for: partaking of them.
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2011, 12:07:09 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 12:18:02 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2011, 12:19:50 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen

The Fraction and Confession in the Coptic rite appear to me to be a form of Eucharistic Adoration. The significant part about this is it is done in the context of the Communion rite. Are you saying that what you are quoting is different?

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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2011, 12:22:51 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.

Not that I had any desire to get into this, but even the Byzantine practice of reserving the elements seems to be an innovation. I have been told that the Copts do not do it, and all that is in the tabernacle is the Holy Chalice itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of the other Orientals.

Not that I have a problem with your practice. It is still very different from the Latin practice I was addressing. You save it primarily for the purpose of it being consumed at some later point.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2011, 12:36:08 AM »

I should add that if there is any reason to open the Tabernacle or the Pyx (Daronositsa - used for carrying the Holy Gifts) then the priest and any other people present will fall down in adoration of Christ.

If anybody is wondering this is hows a Daronositsa looks.  (Irish possesses a word for this from centuries back -chrismal, which means Christ-carrier.  Monks carried the sacred particles in leather pouches around their necks when out in the fields.  The reason was so they could have communion when the Viking ships came into sight and they knew they were doomed to die.)
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2011, 12:51:54 AM »

This is slightly off topic

Is it required that the Eucharist be reserved on the Holy Table? Could the Tabernacle be kept behind the Holy Table?
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2011, 01:48:54 AM »

A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661

The nun who blasphemed by saying the Holy Ghost would not descend because of calendar issues in that story should have been expelled and severely reprimanded for leading others away from a valid liturgy thus endangering their souls.
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2011, 01:48:54 AM »

Quote
that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?

I know of one in Egypt.
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2011, 04:29:30 AM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2011, 10:19:44 AM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*

As is often the case we Orthodox do differ on many issues of custom and practice which do not go to faith. The veneration of custom to the extent that it supplants faith is a constant problem for us. That being said, I see the problem here as reflecting the reality that within the Latin Church there does exist a 'cult like' grouping of faithful that elevate such manifestations to a level that makes us Orthodox uncomfortable, some of that is cultural and much does have to do with 18th and 19th century Latin religious art forms which to most of us seem 'over the top." But as Frs. Ambrose and HLL have told us we do venerate the Eucharist and ascribe miracles to it, it is our expression of the same that differs. I hope this helps clear this up to a point.
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 12:58:34 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
Beautiful.
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2011, 03:46:49 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
Correct
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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2011, 03:55:16 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*

Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2011, 03:59:20 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*

Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2011, 04:08:16 PM »

the Byzantine practice of reserving the elements seems to be an innovation.

Not true.   The reserved mysteries were established before Chalcedon.  We have, of course, the canons to testify of the reserved sacrament for the sick, beginning with the Canons of Nicea:
CANON 13:  "CONCERNING the departing, the ancient canonical law is still to be maintained, to wit, that, if any man be at the point of death, he must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum. But, if any one should be restored to health again who has received the communion when his life was despaired of, let him remain among those who communicate in prayers only. But in general, and in the case of any dying person whatsoever asking to receive the Eucharist, let the Bishop, after examination made, give it him."

But we have, of course, more testimony than just this:


Quote
EXCURSUS ON THE COMMUNION OF THE SICK.

There is nothing upon which the ancient church more strenuously insisted than the oral reception of the Holy Communion. What in later times was known as "Spiritual Communion" was outside of the view of those early days; and to them the issues of eternity were considered often to rest upon the sick man's receiving with his mouth "his food for the journey," the Viaticum, before he died. No greater proof of how important this matter was deemed could be found than the present canon, which provides that even the stern and invariable canons of the public penance are to give way before the awful necessity of fortifying the soul in the last hour of its earthly sojourn.

Possibly at first the Italy Sacrament may have been consecrated in the presence of the sick person, but of this in early times the instances are rare and by was considered a marked favour that such a thing should be allowed, and the saying of mass in private houses was prohibited (as it is in the Eastern and Latin churches still to-day) with the greatest

The necessity of having the consecrated bread and wine for the sick led to their reservation, a practice which has existed in the Church from the very beginning, so far as any records of which we are in possession shew.

St. Justin Martyr, writing less than a half century after St. John's death, mentions that "the deacons communicate each of those present, and carry away to the absent the blest bread, and wine and water."(1) It was evidently a long established custom in his day.

Tertullian tells us of a woman whose husband was a heathen and who was allowed to keep the Holy Sacrament in her house that she might receive every morning before other food. St. Cyprian also gives a most interesting example of reservation. In his treatise "On the Lapsed" written in A.D. 251, (chapter xxvi), he says: "Another woman, when she tried with unworthy hands to open her box, in which was the Holy of the Lord, was deterred from daring to touch it by fire rising from it."

It is impossible with any accuracy to fix the date, but certainly before the year four hundred, a perpetual reservation for the sick was made in the churches. A most interesting incidental proof of this is found in the thrilling description given by St. Chrysostom of the great riot in Constantinople in the year 403, when the soldiers "burst into the place where the Holy Things were stored, and saw all things therein," and "the most holy blood of Christ was spilled upon their clothes."(2) From this incident it is evident that in that church the Holy Sacrament was reserved in both kinds, and separately....It will not be uninteresting to quote in this connection the "Apostolic Constitutions," for while indeed there is much doubt of the date of the Eighth Book, yet it is certainly of great antiquity. Here we read, "and after the communion of both men and women, the deacons take what remains and place it in the tabernacle."
http://www.synaxis.org/cf/volume37/ECF37THE_CANONS_OF_THE_318_HOLY_FATHE.htm
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2011, 04:09:16 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.

Who told you that? 
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.

Who told you that? 
I have been thold that on this forum before. I'll have to look around for the exact posts, but the argument basically stated that the Eucharist is for eating, not adoring, so we should not worship Christ in the Eucharist.
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« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2011, 04:22:09 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.
Who told you that? 
I have been thold that on this forum before. I'll have to look around for the exact posts, but the argument basically stated that the Eucharist is for eating, not adoring, so we should not worship Christ in the Eucharist.
I sincerely apologize for this misinformation that someone has given you and presented it as Orthodox.   
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« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2011, 04:30:02 PM »

For all you Orthodox, let it be known that immediately after the Epiklisis, the following words are said with the Priest's head inclined toward the gifts:   "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith." 
and again:
"We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness"

And again, after the clergy Commune the following rubrics and prayer (note, if a deacon is present he may say the words, but the connection with the Mysteries is clear:

The priest then transfers the remaining portions of the consecrated Bread into the holy Cup, saying:

"Having beheld the resurrection of Christ, let us worship the holy Lord Jesus, the only Sinless One. We venerate Your cross, O Christ, and we praise and glorify Your holy resurrection. You are our God. We know no other than You, and we call upon Your name. Come, all ye faithful, let us venerate the holy resurrection of Christ. For behold, through the cross joy has come to all the world. Blessing the Lord always, let us praise His resurrection. For enduring the cross for us, He destroyed death by death."
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« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2011, 04:46:07 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*

Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.

Who in the blazes told you that?
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« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2011, 04:47:53 PM »

For all you Orthodox, let it be known that immediately after the Epiklisis, the following words are said with the Priest's head inclined toward the gifts:   "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith." 
and again:
"We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness"

And again, after the clergy Commune the following rubrics and prayer (note, if a deacon is present he may say the words, but the connection with the Mysteries is clear:

The priest then transfers the remaining portions of the consecrated Bread into the holy Cup, saying:

"Having beheld the resurrection of Christ, let us worship the holy Lord Jesus, the only Sinless One. We venerate Your cross, O Christ, and we praise and glorify Your holy resurrection. You are our God. We know no other than You, and we call upon Your name. Come, all ye faithful, let us venerate the holy resurrection of Christ. For behold, through the cross joy has come to all the world. Blessing the Lord always, let us praise His resurrection. For enduring the cross for us, He destroyed death by death."


There is also, at least in Russian practice, the bow or full prostration at the final presentation of the Holy Gifts after the communion of the faithful. But this takes place, along with the other instances, in the context of the liturgy. It was my perhaps mistaken understanding that the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament was, at least traditionally (before 1940), extraliturgical. Perhaps this is a reason for some of the Eastern Orthodox hang-up, though I, personally, do not have a problem with it. When an Orthodox priest carries the Reserve Sacrament to the sick, though this is not in the context of sacramental liturgy (no "Blessed is the Kingdom..."), reverence for the Holy Gifts would be expected--of what kind--incense, prostrations, etc. I am not certain. I would probably do a prostration. The only way to be sure of what we should do is to find out what was done in 19th century Russia when the priest went from the church to the homes of sick people with the Holy Gifts. Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2011, 04:50:49 PM »

Is not every Divine Liturgy celebrated a Eucharistic miracle?  Smiley

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« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2011, 04:52:02 PM »

the Byzantine practice of reserving the elements seems to be an innovation.

Not true.   The reserved mysteries were established before Chalcedon.  We have, of course, the canons to testify of the reserved sacrament for the sick, beginning with the Canons of Nicea:
CANON 13:  "CONCERNING the departing, the ancient canonical law is still to be maintained, to wit, that, if any man be at the point of death, he must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum. But, if any one should be restored to health again who has received the communion when his life was despaired of, let him remain among those who communicate in prayers only. But in general, and in the case of any dying person whatsoever asking to receive the Eucharist, let the Bishop, after examination made, give it him."

But we have, of course, more testimony than just this:


Quote
EXCURSUS ON THE COMMUNION OF THE SICK.

There is nothing upon which the ancient church more strenuously insisted than the oral reception of the Holy Communion. What in later times was known as "Spiritual Communion" was outside of the view of those early days; and to them the issues of eternity were considered often to rest upon the sick man's receiving with his mouth "his food for the journey," the Viaticum, before he died. No greater proof of how important this matter was deemed could be found than the present canon, which provides that even the stern and invariable canons of the public penance are to give way before the awful necessity of fortifying the soul in the last hour of its earthly sojourn.

Possibly at first the Italy Sacrament may have been consecrated in the presence of the sick person, but of this in early times the instances are rare and by was considered a marked favour that such a thing should be allowed, and the saying of mass in private houses was prohibited (as it is in the Eastern and Latin churches still to-day) with the greatest

The necessity of having the consecrated bread and wine for the sick led to their reservation, a practice which has existed in the Church from the very beginning, so far as any records of which we are in possession shew.

St. Justin Martyr, writing less than a half century after St. John's death, mentions that "the deacons communicate each of those present, and carry away to the absent the blest bread, and wine and water."(1) It was evidently a long established custom in his day.

Tertullian tells us of a woman whose husband was a heathen and who was allowed to keep the Holy Sacrament in her house that she might receive every morning before other food. St. Cyprian also gives a most interesting example of reservation. In his treatise "On the Lapsed" written in A.D. 251, (chapter xxvi), he says: "Another woman, when she tried with unworthy hands to open her box, in which was the Holy of the Lord, was deterred from daring to touch it by fire rising from it."

It is impossible with any accuracy to fix the date, but certainly before the year four hundred, a perpetual reservation for the sick was made in the churches. A most interesting incidental proof of this is found in the thrilling description given by St. Chrysostom of the great riot in Constantinople in the year 403, when the soldiers "burst into the place where the Holy Things were stored, and saw all things therein," and "the most holy blood of Christ was spilled upon their clothes."(2) From this incident it is evident that in that church the Holy Sacrament was reserved in both kinds, and separately....It will not be uninteresting to quote in this connection the "Apostolic Constitutions," for while indeed there is much doubt of the date of the Eighth Book, yet it is certainly of great antiquity. Here we read, "and after the communion of both men and women, the deacons take what remains and place it in the tabernacle."
http://www.synaxis.org/cf/volume37/ECF37THE_CANONS_OF_THE_318_HOLY_FATHE.htm

It seems that some of the sources are referring to the practice of Eucharistic ministers temporarily reserving the Holy Mysteries to minister them to absentees after the service. That is not what I was referring to. I know that this practice is very old, possibly going back to the Apostolic church, and it is indeed practiced in the Coptic church. What I was addressing was the other practice of perpetually keeping the Holy Mysteries in a Tabernacle on the altar, which the article only attributes to be certainly the case by 400 in certain churches. I have also seen references to Saint Basil the Great on this. Nonetheless, it appears to only have picked up in certain churches and only developed in the 4th century.
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« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.
Who told you that? 
I have been thold that on this forum before. I'll have to look around for the exact posts, but the argument basically stated that the Eucharist is for eating, not adoring, so we should not worship Christ in the Eucharist.
I sincerely apologize for this misinformation that someone has given you and presented it as Orthodox.   
Thank you for clearing that up. I actually feel much better about the situation now.  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2011, 04:53:50 PM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
Not really.  In this case just a discussion on praxis.   Every Orthodox believes that Christ is truly present and that He is to be adored.   
I have been told that it would be inappropriate for an EO to adore Christ in the Eucharist.

Who told you that? 
I have been thold that on this forum before. I'll have to look around for the exact posts, but the argument basically stated that the Eucharist is for eating, not adoring, so we should not worship Christ in the Eucharist.

If interpreted correctly, that statement has some truth to it, and may not mean what you are thinking. If applied to the Latin practice, it could simply mean that the Holy Mysteries should not be saved for a purpose outside of them being consumed, which is true. However, the idea that they should not be worshiped in the context of Holy Communion is not correct.
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« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2011, 04:55:00 PM »

Is not every Divine Liturgy celebrated a Eucharistic miracle?  Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Very true Andrew.   It is a miracle every time!
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« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2011, 05:04:00 PM »

1) Dyobouniotes, used in both Greek and Serbian seminaries:--

"The belief of the Church is further manifested in the reverence and
worship of the Eucharist as such, independently of Communion.
The
faithful pay worship to the Holy Gifts after they have been consecrated, by
virtue of the Presence of our Lord, abiding under the form of bread and
wine. This worship belongs to the Consecrated Elements not abstractly but
concretely in their union with the Person of the Word of God.

"As the human nature of our Lord is an object of worship not as
regarded in itself, abstractly, but by virtue of the hypostatic union,
so the Holy Gifts are worshipped because they are the God-man, His Presence
with soul and Divinity, in every particle of the Consecrated
Elements.

"The Risen Christ, into whose Body and Blood the Elements are
transmuted, never dies, having a spiritual and glorified Body undivided
from His Blood. In the Eucharist He is present with all His constituent
elements, His soul and His Divinity, Body and Blood undivided."


2) Fr Michael Pomazansky's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" used as a text book at Jordanville:--

"Although the bread and wine are transformed in the Mystery into the Body
and Blood of the Lord, He is present in this Mystery with all His being,
that is, with His soul and with His very Divinity, which is inseparably
united to His humanity.

"... those who receive Communion receive the entire Christ in His being,
that is, in His soul and Divinity, as perfect God and perfect man."

"... to the Holy Mysteries of the Eucharist there should be given the same
honour and worship that we are obliged to give to the Lord Jesus Christ
Himself."

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« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2011, 06:34:44 PM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
This has never been addressed. Anyone care to take a crack at it?
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« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
This has never been addressed. Anyone care to take a crack at it?

Beyond my pay level.   laugh
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« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2011, 07:21:07 PM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
This has never been addressed. Anyone care to take a crack at it?

Beyond my pay level.   laugh

I am only aware of one case of this happening, the Lamb appearing at the proskomide and throughout as a baby. It was not seen this way by the priest, but buy a practicioner of magic, because God revealed to him a spiritual mystery. The result of this was moving him and a friend to salvation, leading them to abandon magic. The story is much longer than this and revolves, actually, around the Holy Cross, but this was the beginning. So, the priest only saw bread. Now awkward eucharistic moments there, for the priest at least.
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« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2011, 09:31:46 PM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
This has never been addressed. Anyone care to take a crack at it?

We shouldn't bury it as it is stated that it should be "preserved with care."  I suppose you could talk to it if it talks to you first.  If the child talks you could ask the child what you are to do next.   If the child does not talk I would suggest calling the Bishop and getting Him on a plane immediately.  As Fr.A said, this is above the paygrade of a priest.  This is the job for the mitre.     
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« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
This has never been addressed. Anyone care to take a crack at it?

Beyond my pay level.   laugh

In the story I know from Egypt, the Holy Child was immediately struck by an angel to turn into the blood in the chalice from what I remember. Then the figure in the priests hand immediately turned into the Body of Christ in the semblance of Wine and Bread.
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »

Father Ambrose, can you tell my a place where I can buy an icon exactly like the one you posted:

http://vultus.stblogs.org/Inexhaustible%20Chalice%205.JPG

exactly like it. Please.
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2011, 05:44:37 AM »

Father Ambrose, can you tell my a place where I can buy an icon exactly like the one you posted:



exactly like it. Please.

I can't help you, I am afraid.  I took it off the internet.

It's a very popular icons among Russians.  It is a wonderful help to people with struggles with alcohol..

Here is the story of the icon and also the Akathist which is prayed.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/services/akathist_inexhaustible_cup.htm

That particular icon has the appearance of one of the thousands of small prints which are printed in Russia.  They have a nice look and cost only a dollar or two.  You would need to ask around the Orthodox book shops in the States.
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2011, 04:34:31 PM »

Quote
that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?

My priest told me of this happening in Serbia when a priest who was secretly an athiest was serving (during the Communist times).  The bread and wine in the chalice turned into real flesh and blood, and the Bishop was called in to deal with it.  The priest confessed his sin, converted and, from what my priest told me, ended up a pretty holy person.  I forgot what my priest said was done with the contents of the chalice, but he did say that there were rubrics in the service books in Serbia and Russia that deal with these events.  I don't know if I would call this a "Ecucharistic Miracle" since it is not more miraculous that what happens normally, just more unusual.  As to a child being in the chalice, I always took the icon the same as you did, symbolic of the real presence.
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2011, 12:08:54 AM »

I've heard from a very trusted family member that they were in a small Eastern Orthodox church.  As the priest was giving out communion, more communion kept "bubbling up" in the chalice.  It continued to do this until the chalice almost overflowed.  The priest called the small congregation over to witness.

When this person explained it to me she was very "excited and scared".

"Eaten, yet never consumed".
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2011, 09:33:23 PM »

Lanciano miracle was when that part of Italy was under Byzantine Empire thus Orthodox.
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« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2011, 12:13:57 AM »

Lanciano miracle was when that part of Italy was under Byzantine Empire thus Orthodox.

I thought you were making that up but sure enough, here's what the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano) says about it:

Quote
In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around 700, a Basilian monk and priest were assigned to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in the small Church of St. Legontian. Celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread, that monk had doubts about the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist[citation needed].

During the Divine Liturgy, when he said the Words of Consecration (This is my body. This is my blood), with doubt in his soul, the priest saw the bread change into living flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size (this number supposedly corresponds to the number of wounds Christ suffered on the cross: one in each hand and foot from the nails, and the wound from the centurion's spear).

So I owe you an apology. Sorry!  Embarrassed
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« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2011, 01:13:19 AM »



"Miracle of Lanciano - Eucharistic Miracle of Orthodox West"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278257.html#msg278257
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« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2011, 10:44:16 PM »

No problem. I did not know at beginning however I saw a movie that explained that.
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