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Question: Do Orthodox have eucharistic miracles on display?
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« on: January 12, 2011, 11:53:47 AM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
Thank you-
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 12:02:09 PM »

What is a Eucharistic miracle?
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 12:05:13 PM »

What is a Eucharistic miracle?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 01:08:07 PM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.
Quote
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
No. Yes.

Does the "invisible church" have them?
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 01:09:01 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 01:11:35 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2011, 01:26:22 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 01:35:30 PM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.

I don't think it is troubling, but I also don't see it as a "defect" of the Orthodox.

Eucharistic Adoration, is not only a spiritual prayer than can be "enjoyed" by the prayerful. It's an implementation, foremost, of the "lex orandi, lex credendi" rule. And Unfortunately, in the West, there has been a sever drop in belief in the real presence. Eucharistic Adoration is then beneficial to help restore and reinforce that understanding. Something that hasn't been a problem in the East, but has become, like iconoclasm, a problem in the West.

These Catholics that see it as a defect, don't understand it's purpose, but merely compare all traditions, have a spiritual love for "EA", and, from their experiences, have a hard time understanding how anyone would not have a similar practice.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2011, 02:32:42 PM »



Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2011, 03:06:30 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2011, 03:11:17 PM »

Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.

What/where are they?
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2011, 03:25:39 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2011, 03:44:06 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2011, 04:49:12 PM »


I still don't get it.. I will try to read this again.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2011, 04:55:32 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
Right, we have Eucharistic miracles, we have Eucharistic adoration, although we ordinarily do not have eucharistic exposition outside of the context of Communion, but that does not eliminate that there is adoration, and within a communion context even exposition.  For example, the first part of Presanctified Liturgy has Eucharistic exposition and adoration, as the presanctified eucharist is removed, set upon the paten and venerated with prayer and incensation (however, in those whose practice is to draw the curtain or have high gates closed, only those inside the altar can actually see it exposed upon the altar).  Likewise, at the Presanctified Entrance, there is Eucharistic adoration.   
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.

Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 09:11:33 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 10:50:00 PM »

the only reference i have ever seen to Eucharitic adoration in the EO is a line in the Way of the Piligrim, when he stops at the home of an ill person who receiving communion from the reserved sacramrent so he may "pray in the presence of th eHoly Gifts".
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 09:24:49 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     

The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 10:58:44 PM »

Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.

We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     

The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.

I have heard from a couple of priests that should the Eucharist ever appear physically as anything other than wine and bread, while although it would be considered a miracle, it would not be considered a compliment and the liturgy would need to be suspended and the Bishop called immediately.  Take all that for what it is worth as I do not have a direct source to provide.
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 11:18:34 PM »

A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 11:26:20 PM »

The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."

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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 11:45:50 PM »

Quote
that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2011, 11:51:16 PM »

Mother of God of the Inexhaustible Chalice

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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 12:01:26 AM »

That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 12:02:03 AM »

The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."



Thank you.
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 12:02:32 AM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

That was sort of a cheap shot, but I nonetheless laughed.  laugh
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 12:03:32 AM »

When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.

I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.

Ouch!  Shocked
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2011, 12:06:11 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

It's an innovation.  Wink

But seriously, often Orthodox have a problem with saving the Body and Blood of Christ for any other purpose other than what He instructed them to be for: partaking of them.
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2011, 12:07:09 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 12:18:02 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2011, 12:19:50 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen

The Fraction and Confession in the Coptic rite appear to me to be a form of Eucharistic Adoration. The significant part about this is it is done in the context of the Communion rite. Are you saying that what you are quoting is different?

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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2011, 12:22:51 AM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.

Not that I had any desire to get into this, but even the Byzantine practice of reserving the elements seems to be an innovation. I have been told that the Copts do not do it, and all that is in the tabernacle is the Holy Chalice itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of the other Orientals.

Not that I have a problem with your practice. It is still very different from the Latin practice I was addressing. You save it primarily for the purpose of it being consumed at some later point.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2011, 12:36:08 AM »

I should add that if there is any reason to open the Tabernacle or the Pyx (Daronositsa - used for carrying the Holy Gifts) then the priest and any other people present will fall down in adoration of Christ.

If anybody is wondering this is hows a Daronositsa looks.  (Irish possesses a word for this from centuries back -chrismal, which means Christ-carrier.  Monks carried the sacred particles in leather pouches around their necks when out in the fields.  The reason was so they could have communion when the Viking ships came into sight and they knew they were doomed to die.)
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2011, 12:51:54 AM »

This is slightly off topic

Is it required that the Eucharist be reserved on the Holy Table? Could the Tabernacle be kept behind the Holy Table?
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2011, 01:48:54 AM »

A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661

The nun who blasphemed by saying the Holy Ghost would not descend because of calendar issues in that story should have been expelled and severely reprimanded for leading others away from a valid liturgy thus endangering their souls.
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2011, 01:48:54 AM »

Quote
that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?

I know of one in Egypt.
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2011, 04:29:30 AM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*
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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2011, 10:19:44 AM »

It seems every thread i've been in lately we are arguing about what the Orthodox actually believe... *le sigh*

As is often the case we Orthodox do differ on many issues of custom and practice which do not go to faith. The veneration of custom to the extent that it supplants faith is a constant problem for us. That being said, I see the problem here as reflecting the reality that within the Latin Church there does exist a 'cult like' grouping of faithful that elevate such manifestations to a level that makes us Orthodox uncomfortable, some of that is cultural and much does have to do with 18th and 19th century Latin religious art forms which to most of us seem 'over the top." But as Frs. Ambrose and HLL have told us we do venerate the Eucharist and ascribe miracles to it, it is our expression of the same that differs. I hope this helps clear this up to a point.
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 12:58:34 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?

Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?

It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.

When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
Beautiful.
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2011, 03:46:49 PM »

Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
Correct
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