Topic: Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?

[deusveritasest]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Ick! 

[Shanghaiski]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

[augustin717]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Woah. I'm assuming she did this before she entered monasticism?

This is Pelagia and I can't remember if she became an actual nun or not but I do remember being terribly distressed by the story - apparently she once drowned a litter of kittens. Just once as I recall, drowning cats wasn't a hobby, but still I can't say she's on my favourites list.

Regards,
Margaret

It's common in certain parts of the world. Where I come from is done without a second thought as a form of population control. The same for puppies.
Sergei Esenin, I think, has a beautiful poem called "The Bitch's Song" on the subject.

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Of course, while I think all of us found the original Princess Leah quite stunning in the original series, she has changed a bit: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/12/carrie-fisher-signs-on-as-new-face-of-jenny-craig-after-75lb-weight-gain/

Obi Wan vs. Darth Vader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA



Summary of video added to make post compliant with forum prohibition against naked links. -PtA

She's not the only one.....sigh.....

[podkarpatska]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

They were going to a call-back audition for the Inquisition scene in Mel Brook's History of the World , part 2 maybe?

[Ortho_cat]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

They were going to a call-back audition for the Inquisition scene in Mel Brook's History of the World , part 2 maybe?

The inquisition...look out sin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8

[Fr. George]

^ One of my favorite segments from that film.  Used it once in a History class... (That was really fun.)

[PeterTheAleut]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

[dcommini]

If he can wear a robe can i wear this? ...

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=509057648709&set=t.147803195 

That is a pic of me for those who are wondering...

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

[PeterTheAleut]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

Thank you, that makes sense.

[FatherGiryus]

I am relieved.  Thank you for the clarification.

Recently, someone sent me a 'naked link,' only it really did live up to both your terminology and what it also sounds like.  Be cautious.

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

[minasoliman]

How about the Jalabiya robe?

[Shiny]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

Hilarious responses in this thread though.

[stashko]

What about Ethiopian Orthodox, Indian Orthodox, Middle Eastern Orthodox that wear their ethnic Cloths and attend a Eastern Orthodox Church in the U. S..People get use to Different Cultures even in churches, like on the street ,so eventually they pay it no mind....Life goes on....

[PeterTheAleut]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

[deusveritasest]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy. My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

[PeterTheAleut]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy.

Yes, I am aware that that's what he was talking about, so that's what I'm talking about.

My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

So (continuing from my thought above) social interaction is NOT what I had in mind. The Divine Liturgy is first the prayer of the community.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

But this isn't about sex, Gebre.

[Luke]

You probably don't want to wear this: 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

But this isn't about sex, Gebre.

I say everyone should be FORCED to wear robes- men and wome alike! That will stop sin and lust and all other evils. Listen to me!

Selam

[deusveritasest]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy.

Yes, I am aware that that's what he was talking about, so that's what I'm talking about.

My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

So (continuing from my thought above) social interaction is NOT what I had in mind. The Divine Liturgy is first the prayer of the community.

I can see how this might inhibit social interaction, but how would it cut him off from the community in the sense you are thinking of?

[PeterTheAleut]

You probably don't want to wear this:

No, only a bishop is permitted to wear that. But then you'd have to make this the music of the entrance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8


ps. I'm having great difficulty getting that image to load in all three of my favorite browsers, so if anyone else is having this problem, I think it's because the server where the image is located has forbidden us to see it. At least that's the message I got when I tried to turn the image into a hyperlink and click the link. About the only thing I can do successfully is paste the link into my browser's address line, which is possible if you quote the post with the image and extract the link from the quote.

[Ionnis]

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

A serious question: are you being serious?  Would you seriously where a robe like the one you posted to church?  My response is contingent upon your answer.

[Cognomen]

I was initially hoping that this thread was a joke, but I'm surprised that it has taken this turn.  It seems painfully obvious that wearing a massive, strange robe, as a relatively new Catechumen nonetheless, could be tremendously distracting and detrimental to the service.  That doesn't mean that other forms of inappropriate clothing are appropriate.  To think that we can and should just wear whatever we feel like (to Divine Liturgy), regardless of the consequences, seems naive and forgive me, a bit self-centered.

Either way, this is clearly something that Achronos should take up with his priest, not an internet forum. Perhaps if you are distracted, try to arrange a better place to stand.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.


Selam

[Alveus Lacuna]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I don't have a problem with modesty, I have a problem with pretentious posturing and fantasy role-playing. One can quite easily dress modestly without putting on an outfit that one has no legitimate historical connection with.

You probably dress like the Ethiopian men when you attend liturgy, and in that case it's fine and makes sense because you are fitting in and keeping the right custom. If it was customary for everyone to wear these robes, then I'd tell him to go ahead. But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

[stashko]

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

[minasoliman]

I really do like the idea that the Ethiopian Church is quite uniform in the liturgy with all the white robes worn.

[Asteriktos]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

[ozgeorge]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

[Ionnis]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

[stashko]

Your Not really serious About this Post are you.........come on you must be joking.....

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

[Cognomen]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

Desiring to dress modestly?  That is not what modesty is in this context.  It seems that he either wants to draw attention to himself, which he certainly would, or that he hasn't considered that this may cause a distraction.
From my limited understanding of Orthodoxy, doing whatever makes you feel more "spiritually focused," without guidance or consideration of consequences isn't really the prescribed path for those of us inquiring/new to the church.  

Again, don't you think that his parish priest would be the best person to ultimately decide this, not us?

[PeterTheAleut]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

[Asteriktos]

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

Hmm... (they need to make a questioning emoticon, but with a smile instead of a frown)

[Shiny]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

All my question was that could you wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy, and it was interesting to see the respones. My picture was just an example. What's more prideful the guy who dresses up in the latest Gucci suit or the man who wears but a simple robe or at the very least a one piece suit? Where he doesn't care how eloquent he dresses but comes as he is and judged by his heart alone?

So you are going to take a glance at a man in a robe and call him pretentious, self-centered, boastful, prideful etc without even conversing with that person to see what is actually in their heart? Does the mouth not speak what is in the heart?

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?

[Margaret S.]

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

You mean with a peineta (the decorative comb)? I'm trying to work out what you mean by "full blown". I used to wear a mantilla all the time to church because it was what was worn in my previous tradition and it never occurred to me for a second that it could or would distract anyone. I stopped when I set fire to one and my hair during Pascha and realised for the first time (I'm not very bright) that there are an awful lot more candles in an Orthodox Church than an Anglo-Catholic one but I do admit the smell of burning hair was very, very distracting 

Regards,
Margaret

[PeterTheAleut]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

[Alpo]

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy;

Doesn't wearing something more formal do the same? That works for me. Also, that wouldn't probably arouse any attention and divine liturgy is a feast after all.

Althought I must admit that wearing a robe is a fascinating idea...

[Shiny]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?

[Ambrose of Milan]

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh?

Stop the rhyming now, I mean it.

[ozgeorge]

So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?

One of the most difficult things a Christian is asked to do by Christ is to "deny himself". What this entails is best understood if we think about what it means to "deny" someone else. In His greatest hour of need, when He was all alone facing ruthless and unjust treatment and needed a friend, Christ was "denied" three times by St. Peter. That is, he behaved as though he never knew Christ Who had been his friend for three years. Rather than treat others this way, Christ says that we must deny ourselves.  In this sense then, no, there is no room for "individualism" for those who want to follow Christ. "If anyone wants to follow Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross every day and follow Me."  And the Cross looks like the letter "I" crossed out.