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Author Topic: Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?  (Read 23359 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2011, 10:05:21 AM »

Perhaps such a robe would be appropriate if one found icons in the bathroom on the main floor of the Church?  (me bad, couldn't help myself..... Cheesy Cheesy)
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« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2011, 11:09:43 AM »

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.
...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?
The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?
Yes, there is. The Divine Liturgy is the common work of the parish/monastic community, not the individually disparate works of multiple individuals. There is no sense of "to each his own" there. If you want to pray as an individual and nothing more, then stay home.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 11:13:37 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2011, 11:30:03 AM »

Well, Achronos, you asked in the beginning for people to not ask why you were asking, so people have to guess as to what the motivations might be for wearing one.  That is a bit of a trap, no?  That's why I just had fun with it.

But, now, since you are getting serious about the responses, perhaps it is time for a serious answer.

There is a difference between a man who comes in a robe because that is what he always wears and a man who comes to draw attention to himself with the same robe.  The man who comes in the Gucci suit may also wear it for attention, while the other wears it because he is rich and yet also gives a great deal to the poor and the church (I have known such people).  When you get into saying what is 'prideful,' it is asking like what murder is worse.  The fact is that murder is murder and pride is pride.  Yes, there are degrees, but it does not pay for me to excuse my pride because it appears smaller than someone else's.

This is at the core of the matter: whether your desire to wear a rope that you normally do not trumps the distinct possibility that you will distract other people while they are worshipping or, at least, trying to.  Do you wear the robe out of respect for God and your neighbor, or out of some as-of-yet undisclosed personal reason?  This is not about judging the appearance of another person, but measuring your own motives.  There is a difference.  One is examining the outer appearance of another, while the other is self-examination.

I was taught long ago to never compare my insides to another person's outsides.  It has proved to be very handy advice.  Of course, I can learn a great deal about someone's insides by their outsides, but there are also lots of complicating factors.  For example, the rich man who dresses in fine garments, yet gives away a great deal of his wealth, and quite a bit of it anonymously.

I used to deride a man for constantly coming to church in shorts, up until I noticed that he brought more visitors and relatives and friends to church than any 20 other people in the community.  I cut him some slack, though I would have preferred him to do the same thing in slacks!  Wink

When YOU decide to wear a robe, you must examine your own motives rather than speculating how others will sin against you by judging you.  Certainly, all of us judge others, and so it is natural to conclude that when you take the big leap to change your appearance that others will notice you.  But, engaging in speculation on whether they will judge you for being prideful or just dismiss you as a kook or even perhaps feel sorry for you for having to draw attention to yourself is really a crazy-making effort, since there is no telling what the individual judgments of others will be. 

My conclusion would be to say that most folks hide their hearts very well, and so it is unreasonable to assume we can even have enough access to their 'hearts' to appreciate them for who they really are, and so we go on their appearances until we can observe their behavior.  I would even go so far as to say that what most people say and what is going on within them is two different things.  Very few people are utterly honest.

The homeless man can be just as self-willed in his poverty as the rich man in his wealth (there is a certain Orthodox blogger who has made this primary occupation, or at least preoccupation).  However complicated the reason, it is foolish to go much further than one's own motivations and the risks one will take with one's own soul.  St. Justin the Martyr told Tripho that Christians dress no different than other people. 

When we do, it is out of obedience.  When you receive an obedience to wear a robe, then wear the robe you are given to wear.  Otherwise, wear what is proper to your gender and station in life and accept the life that God has given you.  To do otherwise is to reject the gift of your life.


<snip>
All my question was that could you wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy, and it was interesting to see the respones. My picture was just an example. What's more prideful the guy who dresses up in the latest Gucci suit or the man who wears but a simple robe or at the very least a one piece suit? Where he doesn't care how eloquent he dresses but comes as he is and judged by his heart alone?

So you are going to take a glance at a man in a robe and call him pretentious, self-centered, boastful, prideful etc without even conversing with that person to see what is actually in their heart? Does the mouth not speak what is in the heart?

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?
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« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2011, 11:38:28 AM »

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?

I think that's a false setup. The homeless man coming as he is is most certainly one thing, but the man in the suit can be more humble if the homeless man's attitude is something akin to "Man, I'll show all these rich snobs what a real Christian looks like. I'm a beggar and in poverty, and they're all such hypocrites dripping with gold."

Well first of all, it was likely their gold and their ancestors' gold that built the temple that the homeless man is standing in, which they worked for with faith and love toward God their whole lives. Blessed are the poor, but also remember that some homeless people have not nobly renounced the world, but rather have been reduced to having nothing because they are so consumed with their passions, All of that to say that the whole "rich vs. poor" holiness dichotomy is a false one. What matters is what's in the heart. If someone is trying to impress everyone with their suit, or their weird smelly clothes, then that person is in the wrong state of mind for services.

If a homeless man comes dressed in a way that some find distracting because he has no other clothes or is just looking into Christianity then there is no room to judge. But we do have to be discerning. So the homeless man might be a distraction, but not intentionally, and even if he did know and wish to dress in a more inconspicuous manner, he wouldn't have any other choices. In that case, the congregation would need to love him and give him a seat of honor and just deal with the smell. I have friends who I must say might be doing the opposite sometimes, being somehow "fashionably smelly" as travelers/drifters from good middle-class homes.

You probably never wear a robe, and so that's why I keep calling it role-playing. If if you do it all the time, people at the grocery store would find it equally strange. Strange isn't always bad (St. Xenia of Petersberg), but m ore often the most humble route is to blend in at church so as not to be a distraction.
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« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2011, 12:47:52 PM »

Achronos, I'm not judging you. I am seriously concerned about you though.  All that I have to go by is what you are posting here and I am taking that into consideration.  One things the Fathers teach time and time again is that in order to reach those higher levels of the spiritual life, to contemplate the divine, one must have purified himself of the passions. Purification from passion is a long, laborious process that for most of us will not be completed in this life time. Many of the Saints did extraordinary things and relied on external and mechanical means to enhance their prayer, but they only did so after purifying themselves of the passions.  The Fathers say that reliance on external means to enhance prayer, for those who have not been purified of passions, is spiritually dangerous, as pride is almost a certain downfall.  I caution you, that is all.  Perhaps the Lord has given you special grace and you have been purified so early on.  This is not unheard of, this was the case with St. Silouan the Athonite, but it is rare.  So I don't judge you, but like I said, have a great deal of concern for you.  Hopefully your parish priest will be of use to you in this. 

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« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2011, 12:55:34 PM »

Comm'on, as if it is a given that homeless people are even allowed into some churches or, if they are allowed for the liturgy, they are denied entrance to the pious-talk, I mean, coffee hour. I know a "mission-oriented" church that does that. They said: "they don't come for the Divine Liturgy anyways, only for money or food" Roll Eyes
But this is slightly off-topic.
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« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2011, 01:13:33 PM »

FWIW, until recently, I wore a Scottish kilt on a daily basis (before you ask, it was because I could and I'm weird like that) except when going to church.  Even though it was my normal, everyday garb, it would have unnecessarily drawn attention to myself. 

You want to wear something humbling w/o drawing attention to yourself?  Go simple and monochrome.  There was a man who came to our parish for a while (who has since moved away) who wore a simple black cotton button down shirt, black trousers, and black shoes.  I've seen others wearing shades of tan (the be-all, end-all of colors that blend in!).  Wearing a robe in 20th century America is calling attention to oneself, period.  It is not humbling, it is showing off.  I'm sorry, but that's how I see it and I'm what many consider to be a "peacock".  I know my own when I see them.

Knock it off and blend in if you want to be humble.  Don't worry about the guy wearing the Gucci suit, it's not your concern; keep your eyes on your own plate. 
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« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2011, 01:25:00 PM »

Amen! (from another guy who's always struggled to blend, but mostly because of a big mouth).

FWIW, until recently, I wore a Scottish kilt on a daily basis (before you ask, it was because I could and I'm weird like that) except when going to church.  Even though it was my normal, everyday garb, it would have unnecessarily drawn attention to myself. 

You want to wear something humbling w/o drawing attention to yourself?  Go simple and monochrome.  There was a man who came to our parish for a while (who has since moved away) who wore a simple black cotton button down shirt, black trousers, and black shoes.  I've seen others wearing shades of tan (the be-all, end-all of colors that blend in!).  Wearing a robe in 20th century America is calling attention to oneself, period.  It is not humbling, it is showing off.  I'm sorry, but that's how I see it and I'm what many consider to be a "peacock".  I know my own when I see them.

Knock it off and blend in if you want to be humble.  Don't worry about the guy wearing the Gucci suit, it's not your concern; keep your eyes on your own plate. 
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« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2011, 01:25:18 PM »

There is a false humility that is really just pride. Just being "normal" should be humbling enough for you with regard to dress. Attack your pride, instead, with obedience to Christ's commandments and the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church. Cultivate peace of soul and silence. The catechumenate, especially, is a time to put aside all your silly personal notions which you have held up to this time and form your mind and life to the mind and life of the Church. It is a time to realize that you really do not know anything, that you are a spiritual idiot in need of instruction. Did that raise your hackles? Then no robe-wearing is going to humble you.
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« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2011, 01:56:08 PM »

Comm'on, as if it is a given that homeless people are even allowed into some churches or, if they are allowed for the liturgy, they are denied entrance to the pious-talk, I mean, coffee hour. I know a "mission-oriented" church that does that. They said: "they don't come for the Divine Liturgy anyways, only for money or food" Roll Eyes
But this is slightly off-topic.

During the week and much of the weekend I look pretty much like every homeless person you would see around me (for reasons due to my work, where I live, and people I deal with (when in Rome . . .). So during the week, I look like a homeless person at Church. On the weekend, I have time to change into grey slacks, a nice black shirt, and my nice black wool jacket.

I don't think anyone at the parish cares either way. Although for the first couple of visits and even now by those who don't know me, I am asked if I need money or a ride as services / coffee hour ends.

Four square with the post immediately above from Shanghaiski.
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« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2011, 02:41:32 PM »

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

To the OP, I personally would see no problem wearing the robe.  I would find it far less offensive than some of the getups that I have seen in my years in Church.  The cowl would be a bit over the top since it is the women that should have the head covered and not the man, but that is really about it.  I think the issue is what is in your heart when you do it, not what is in everyone else heart.  If everyone would take the time to tend their own garden, they would find themselves too busy to worry about what is going on in their neighbor's garden.  But then again, we know that is not going to happen.  I, too, prefer a robe.  And fortunately, due to my position, my priest allows me to wear my black Gibi when I serve in the church.  I don't know why, but I have always felt closer to God when I wear it.  I think that there is a lot to be said about wearing special attire before God, and I believe that the Coptics are way ahead of us in this regard.  It has nothing to do with what other people think.  And, if one of our good Christians want to judge you for being prideful, let them.  The sin is on them, not you.  On the other hand, you should get the blessing of your priest regarding the matter.  Doing something in disobedience is never good.  If my priest told me that I could not wear my Gibi, I would not.  I would not be happy about it, but that would be my problem to deal with and not that of anyone else. 
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« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2011, 03:18:33 PM »

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink
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« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2011, 03:29:11 PM »

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.
Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging. Roll Eyes Wink
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« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2011, 03:45:48 PM »

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink

Any naturally born citizen of the USA is a native American. If I were to go as my first folks here in the States dressed, I would go just wearing a bottle of whiskey. Anything else they wore were mere accessories.
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2011, 03:48:30 PM »

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.
Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging. Roll Eyes Wink

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2011, 04:09:24 PM »

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.
Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging. Roll Eyes Wink

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.
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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2011, 04:13:38 PM »

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.
Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging. Roll Eyes Wink

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.

It what you get when you fall into temptation.
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2011, 05:23:21 PM »

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....




what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink

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« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2011, 05:40:07 PM »

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....




what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink




stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  Smiley
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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2011, 05:54:21 PM »

Hmm nothing mentioned after my response I disagree with and I have made errors in regards to bringing up false comparisions which Alveus pointed out. When I made the thread I sincerly thought it would be harmless to wear such a garment (realistically speaking I probably wouldn't) and see if there was something in the Church that would prohibit such a usage.

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?
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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2011, 06:02:39 PM »

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?
As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.
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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2011, 06:07:04 PM »

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?
As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.
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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2011, 06:14:44 PM »

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?
As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.
Exactly. We true Christians must reject the things of this world and ensure that our jeans smell of fabric softener and have nice ironed creases. Thankfully, we don't kneel on Sundays, so the crease should stay nice and crisp and see us through coffee hour.
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« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2011, 06:16:08 PM »

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?
As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.
Exactly. We true Christians must reject the things of this world and ensure that our jeans smell of fabric softener and have nice ironed creases. Thankfully, we don't kneel on Sundays, so the crease should stay nice and crisp and see us through coffee hour.

good point!
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« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2011, 06:47:33 PM »

Wear Ed Hardy t-shirts. If you don't feel humble going in, you'll certainly feel humble by the time you leave.
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« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2011, 06:52:02 PM »

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

I don't think so.  I wear whatever I have available at the time.  More often than not, that is a pair of jeans.
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« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2011, 07:00:32 PM »


It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.
Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.
Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.
I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

You are not his Priest Peter. And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

Selam
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« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2011, 07:05:57 PM »

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right? Grin
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« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2011, 07:16:51 PM »


Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

I do it all the time.
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« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2011, 07:32:10 PM »

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right? Grin
You should see what some of our Saints wear in Church:

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« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2011, 07:45:21 PM »


It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.
Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.
Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.
I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.
He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.
And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.
And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?
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« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2011, 07:45:25 PM »

 If i'm right Powwows are gathering of all different tribes ....It's great wonderful...Very elaborate traditional wear.........Quinalt will correct us were where wrong in....She know all about it...



I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....




what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink




stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  Smiley
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« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2011, 08:14:47 PM »

What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  Smiley

Never met a Scot who wasn't a cretin.
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« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2011, 08:16:23 PM »

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that?

God Forbid!
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« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2011, 08:19:58 PM »

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.
...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right? Grin
You should see what some of our Saints wear in Church:

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded?  Grin
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« Reply #125 on: January 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM »

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded?  Grin
No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.
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« Reply #126 on: January 14, 2011, 08:44:51 PM »



It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.
Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.
Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.
I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.
He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.
And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.
And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation. I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.


Selam
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« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2011, 09:05:57 PM »



It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.
Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.
Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.
I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.
He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.
And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.
And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation.
But by defending him against what you think are unjust opinions, you are indeed communicating as loudly and clearly as you can what you think of his motives and of what he should do.

I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.
Are you not now judging the intentions and motives of the hearts of those who have opined on this subject, which is exactly the behavior you have condemned in us? Is it somehow commendable when you do it but condemnable when we do? That finger you're pointing at us... do you not see the three pointing back at you?


BTW, Gebre,

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do.

Yes you have. Have you forgotten that you posted the following?

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead.
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« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2011, 09:19:14 PM »

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.
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« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2011, 09:26:01 PM »

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.


Why.... Huh
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« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2011, 09:34:15 PM »

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right? Grin

I think Toga's were fancy garb restricted to just a few upper class and not what Jews in general wore during that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga
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« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2011, 09:36:06 PM »

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.
Actually, it would be wrong for me to do so at this time. I don't want to appear as if I'm trying to shut down a poster who disagrees with me. It would be an abuse of my moderatorial authority.
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« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2011, 09:37:58 PM »

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right? Grin

I think Toga's were fancy garb restricted to just a few upper class and not what Jews in general wore during that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga

Oh no I meant to seperate the toga's from the other styles that were being worn at the time.
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« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2011, 10:22:17 PM »

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....




what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes.......... Grin

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round Wink




stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  Smiley

The clothing you see at pow-wows is something called regalia. Essentially the best, most showy clothing possible. Pow-wows as they are today are new concepts. In any case, the NW tribes didn't wear a particular type of regalia on a regular basis.
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« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2011, 11:42:48 PM »




It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.
Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.
Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.
I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.
He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.
And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.
And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation.
But by defending him against what you think are unjust opinions, you are indeed communicating as loudly and clearly as you can what you think of his motives and of what he should do.

I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.
Are you not now judging the intentions and motives of the hearts of those who have opined on this subject, which is exactly the behavior you have condemned in us? Is it somehow commendable when you do it but condemnable when we do? That finger you're pointing at us... do you not see the three pointing back at you?


BTW, Gebre,

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do.

Yes you have. Have you forgotten that you posted the following?

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead.


I never said what he should do. I offered him my opinion that I think it's ok if he wants to do it.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

Selam
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