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Author Topic: Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?  (Read 20090 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2011, 02:18:43 AM »

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded?  Grin
No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.


OMGosh you're not allowed to post gay couples on OCnet!!!  Angry Angry Angry
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« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2011, 02:22:28 AM »

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.


 Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2011, 02:27:09 AM »



That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley
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« Reply #183 on: January 26, 2011, 02:35:08 AM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police
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I'll bet I look like a goof.

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« Reply #184 on: January 26, 2011, 10:25:13 AM »

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded?  Grin
No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.


OMGosh you're not allowed to post gay couples on OCnet!!!  Angry Angry Angry

I was thinking the same thing!  (Well, not about not posting gay couples, but was confused as to the gender of the fellow's significant other...)
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« Reply #185 on: January 26, 2011, 10:52:06 AM »


He would let you:

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« Reply #186 on: January 26, 2011, 12:08:11 PM »


But the OP asked if he could wear the robe to Divine Liturgy - not Mass.   Wink Wink
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« Reply #187 on: January 26, 2011, 12:24:29 PM »

There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  Grin):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

Well said.
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« Reply #188 on: January 26, 2011, 12:46:38 PM »

Mina's father echoed the advice of Quentin Crisp.  The latter wrote what I think should be mandatory reading for all high school kids and college students:

http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Heaven-Divine-Guide-Behavior/dp/006015392X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Yes, the author was something of a 'gay icon,' but he actually offers a lot of very good, practical advice on being polite.  The book is not about how people should accept his lifestyle, but how he learned not to rub it in peoples' faces and tried his best to now allow his 'difference' to scandalize others more than necessary.


There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  Grin):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

Well said.
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« Reply #189 on: January 26, 2011, 03:37:46 PM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
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« Reply #190 on: January 26, 2011, 11:51:21 PM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.
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« Reply #191 on: January 26, 2011, 11:54:19 PM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.
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« Reply #192 on: January 26, 2011, 11:59:13 PM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.
Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:01:15 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #193 on: January 27, 2011, 12:03:22 AM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.
Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.

Peter, the form I was trying to communicate with you in was not argumentative. I just asked a question.
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« Reply #194 on: January 27, 2011, 12:05:11 AM »

That's a very good looking guy!  Smiley

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  police

Hmmmm. I like him that way.
deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.
Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.

Peter, the form I was trying to communicate with you in was not argumentative. I just asked a question.
I will broach no more discussion on this thread regarding my actions. None whatsoever. If you wish to say ANYTHING more about this, even a single word, direct it to me in a private message.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:12:21 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #195 on: January 27, 2011, 01:07:41 AM »

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay.  Cheesy
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« Reply #196 on: January 27, 2011, 01:36:05 AM »

Is it stupid because you are not a male homosexual, or is it stupid because the term 'gay' is not longer in vogue as a description of male homosexuality?

As I recall, 'gay' was an acceptable term.  But, it has been a few years since I last attended a university.   Undecided


Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay.  Cheesy
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« Reply #197 on: January 27, 2011, 01:54:49 AM »

Is it stupid because you are not a male homosexual, or is it stupid because the term 'gay' is not longer in vogue as a description of male homosexuality?

As I recall, 'gay' was an acceptable term.  But, it has been a few years since I last attended a university.   Undecided


Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay.  Cheesy

I am indeed a male homosexual.

Actually, it has to do with the grammatical usage of the word. Using gay in that sense as an adjective can be OK. Using it as a noun, however, is what sounds stupid to me.
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« Reply #198 on: January 27, 2011, 01:57:26 AM »

 Question....and.... Grin


My opinion is he won't join eastern or oriental Orthodoxy neither allows ,what he wants....All his knowledge about religion means nothing if he doesn't apply it...Christ does say the more one recieve the more he expects from that person ,so  ignorance  for him won't or can't be a excuse.....

I sometimes wonder, is it's better not to know alot about ones religion,than knowing everything and not putting it into practice and being held accountable before Christ.... In Holy Orthodoxy ,Can Ignorance save a person .....Example, The less one Knows the less he's accountable...
                                            The saying Ignorance is Bliss....... Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #199 on: January 27, 2011, 02:11:57 AM »

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko?  laugh
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« Reply #200 on: January 27, 2011, 02:28:45 AM »

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko?  laugh

Well, I don't think his question was unfair. I basically wonder the same thing.


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« Reply #201 on: January 27, 2011, 02:44:30 AM »

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko?  laugh

Well, I don't think his question was unfair. I basically wonder the same thing.


Selam

For one thing, it's stashko...

For another, his post was full of assuming and condescending claims regarding my person.

And finally, this site has proven itself totally unsafe for anyone (myself in particular) not ranting against homosexual behavior to discuss their opinions on the matter.
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« Reply #202 on: January 27, 2011, 02:56:24 AM »


You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko?  laugh

Well, I don't think his question was unfair. I basically wonder the same thing.


Selam

For one thing, it's stashko...

For another, his post was full of assuming and condescending claims regarding my person.

And finally, this site has proven itself totally unsafe for anyone (myself in particular) not ranting against homosexual behavior to discuss their opinions on the matter.

OK, you aren't obligated to respond to Stashko. And part of what he said could be interpreted as condescending. But I don't buy the martyr complex my friend. There are plenty of outspoken posters on this forum who not only defend your views but advocate and promote them. In fact, those of us who dare to criticize homosexuality are often unfairly condemned as anachronistic bigots. So by all means, defend your position and tell us how it squares with Church Teaching.

I frankly think Stashko's comment, "All his knowledge about religion means nothing if he doesn't apply it" is applicable to all of us.

Selam
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« Reply #203 on: January 27, 2011, 03:01:54 AM »

Gebre, are you joking me? That is a seriously deluded perspective on the treatment of homosexuality on this site. Have you even read the forum policy developed after the moratorium?
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« Reply #204 on: January 27, 2011, 03:40:00 AM »

Okay, all of you: knock off the talk about homosexuality on this thread. That's not what this thread is about, so let's get back on topic.
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« Reply #205 on: January 27, 2011, 11:25:49 AM »


Dear DVE,

"Unsafe"?  Who threatened you?  Who has harmed you?

Seriously, this is an opinion forum.  You have your opinions, and the other posters have theirs.  They post theirs and you post yours, but it is not 'unsafe' in that all participation is voluntary and anyone who does not like what is going on can simply not 'tune in.'

There are plenty of things that go on here I find offensive or bad for me, and what I do is simply skip those threads.  No one can 'harm' me if I simply ignore a thread.  Honestly, I ignore most just based on the title.  I also guard against felling compelled to post.  If I have difficulty passing up an opportunity to post, then I know that I have a problem and I need to work on it.  Perhaps that is why I delete about 1/3 of my responses before I hit the 'Post' button.

Opinions do not harm people in and of themselves, but rather what we do with them.  If someone comes to your house and beats you up because of this forum, I would agree that this is an 'unsafe place.'  However, if the harm is that you are offended by the opinions here, then it is your decision to internalize those opinions that is the source of your suffering.

If you think about it, you have offended many people here, and they have also offended you.  The lack of 'safety' is, in some respects, mutual.  However, the moderators have not banned you, even though they know you have offensive opinions (i.e. justifying homosexuality in the context of the OO Church).  You are allowed to continue to post, so long as you play by the rules (which are the same for everyone and, as far as I am aware, applied fairly).

Contrary opinions will always be 'unsafe' to those who are weak in their own.  Only the most ruthless and unstable regimes and people suppress contrary opinions.

Even the Church does not force people to believe.  The only time you see what could be interpreted as 'censorship' is when someone proposes an opinion as an official teaching of the Church.  That's where you see problems develop, and I think that's at the root of the contention here.



<snip>
And finally, this site has proven itself totally unsafe for anyone (myself in particular) not ranting against homosexual behavior to discuss their opinions on the matter.
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« Reply #206 on: January 27, 2011, 12:13:50 PM »

I made a thread here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33288.new.html#new

To discuss (not about homosexuality) how we can discuss homosexuality.
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« Reply #207 on: April 29, 2011, 09:57:13 PM »

So did you ever wear the robe?  angel Grin police
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« Reply #208 on: April 29, 2011, 10:12:40 PM »

Why can't he wear a robe? In heaven, everyone has a robe, according to an old Negro Spiritual:

I got a robe, you got a robe,
All God's children got a robe.
When I get to Heav'n gonna put in my robe,
Gonna shout all over God's Heav'n, Heav'n, Heav'n
Everybody talkin' æbout Heav'n ain't going there,
Heav'n, Heav'n, Heav'n.
Gonna shout all over God's Heav'n.
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« Reply #209 on: April 29, 2011, 10:21:32 PM »

When I get to Heav'n gonna put on my robe...

Yeah, but they're not wearing it to church now. That would be weird.
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« Reply #210 on: April 30, 2011, 07:48:45 AM »

I very much sympathize with the desire to wear something not-wordly to liturgy.

I especially hate dressing in a smart suit and tie, as that's what I wear on a daily business. Makes liturgy feel mundane and office-y.

Also, it's important to be as comfortable as possible during worship to facilitate prostrating and deep bowing. For me, personally, physical comfort also helps me concentrate. Robes are suitable for this -- it's a shame you'll probably scandalize the whole parish in wearing them, which is certainly a sin to be avoided.

Edit: sorry, responded to the first page without realizing there were another four.
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« Reply #211 on: April 30, 2011, 09:09:57 AM »

I have worn kimono to liturgy. Does that count?
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« Reply #212 on: April 30, 2011, 09:15:07 AM »

I have worn kimono to liturgy. Does that count?

Cool.
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« Reply #213 on: April 30, 2011, 09:22:45 AM »

I have worn kimono to liturgy. Does that count?

Cool.

They are good for kneeling/prostrations.

Tossing up what to wear to church tomorrow ...
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« Reply #214 on: April 30, 2011, 12:18:30 PM »


Also, it's important to be as comfortable as possible during worship to facilitate prostrating and deep bowing. For me, personally, physical comfort also helps me concentrate. Robes are suitable for this -- it's a shame you'll probably scandalize the whole parish in wearing them, which is certainly a sin to be avoided.
Instead of a robe, one could wear a sherwani.
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« Reply #215 on: April 30, 2011, 05:13:40 PM »

On the robe note --

I admit, I really struggle with the argument that we should dress in a way that doesn't stand out. I LIKE the 50s style skirts and I actually love Islamic clothing. I don't want to wear it to be a show-off, but apparently no matter how modest it is, I can't. Sigh. I was born in the wrong time, wrong place.
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« Reply #216 on: April 30, 2011, 06:00:42 PM »


Also, it's important to be as comfortable as possible during worship to facilitate prostrating and deep bowing. For me, personally, physical comfort also helps me concentrate. Robes are suitable for this -- it's a shame you'll probably scandalize the whole parish in wearing them, which is certainly a sin to be avoided.
Instead of a robe, one could wear a sherwani.

I like that! My suit is slowly asphyxiating my soul.
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« Reply #217 on: April 30, 2011, 06:29:36 PM »


Also, it's important to be as comfortable as possible during worship to facilitate prostrating and deep bowing. For me, personally, physical comfort also helps me concentrate. Robes are suitable for this -- it's a shame you'll probably scandalize the whole parish in wearing them, which is certainly a sin to be avoided.
Instead of a robe, one could wear a sherwani.

Cool.  That would go nicely with my turban (which I also wish we could wear to Church).
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« Reply #218 on: April 30, 2011, 09:45:38 PM »


Also, it's important to be as comfortable as possible during worship to facilitate prostrating and deep bowing. For me, personally, physical comfort also helps me concentrate. Robes are suitable for this -- it's a shame you'll probably scandalize the whole parish in wearing them, which is certainly a sin to be avoided.
Instead of a robe, one could wear a sherwani.

I visited one Indian Orthodox Church, and I saw no man wearing a sherwani, but women did wear their traditional dresses.  Indian men seemed to have been more westernized with suits (I didn't mind a bit; at least I didn't stand out in dress, although skin color was apparent lol)
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« Reply #219 on: May 01, 2011, 03:02:33 AM »

[...]I saw no man wearing a sherwani, but women did wear their traditional dresses. Indian men seemed to have been more westernized with suits[...]

This appears to be universal. And regrettable.
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« Reply #220 on: May 01, 2011, 10:09:57 AM »

[...]I saw no man wearing a sherwani, but women did wear their traditional dresses. Indian men seemed to have been more westernized with suits[...]

This appears to be universal. And regrettable.
agreed.  nothing looks more worldly than  tux, and being around them makes me most uncomfortable.  I went to my friend's kingdom hall, and they were like an army of....buisness men or something!  and they all have very fancy suit cases to keep their pamphlets, Bibles, and magzines in.  ugghhh  Tongue
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« Reply #221 on: May 01, 2011, 01:19:25 PM »

Whenever I'm helping in the altar, I'm required to wear a cassock and find it really helpful.

I don't know where you live, but if you live in a big city, diversity's the norm. People are used to see robes, funny hats, beards, etc. Wear whatever you like, but maybe go with something contemporary rather than medieval monastic robes - you're not a monastic.
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« Reply #222 on: May 01, 2011, 02:25:55 PM »

This appears to be universal. And regrettable.
agreed.  nothing looks more worldly than  tux, and being around them makes me most uncomfortable

Compared to "other-worldly" clothing?  Tongue
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« Reply #223 on: May 01, 2011, 05:29:44 PM »

I admit, I really struggle with the argument that we should dress in a way that doesn't stand out. I LIKE the 50s style skirts and I actually love Islamic clothing. I don't want to wear it to be a show-off, but apparently no matter how modest it is, I can't. Sigh. I was born in the wrong time, wrong place.

There's nothing wrong with dressing modestly as a woman. It was the whole idea of wearing a Western monastic style robe to an everyday Orthodox parish that was seen as absurd and bizarre. Most of the woman at my parish dress modestly with long skirts, long sleeves and headcoverings. The men generally show modestly by wearing long sleeves and not wearing hats.
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« Reply #224 on: May 01, 2011, 05:38:47 PM »

This appears to be universal. And regrettable.
agreed.  nothing looks more worldly than  tux, and being around them makes me most uncomfortable

Compared to "other-worldly" clothing?  Tongue

well, you've got to admit, this is pretty cool...

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