Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?

[Ionnis]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

[Achronos]

Ionnis that is the very reason why I wanted this thread to be locked.

[Jason.Wike]

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

Are you certain she isn't of Hispanic heritage and isn't just used to wearing a mantilla to church? There's nothing wrong with sitting in the front row either. I'm not in favour of wearing strange robes to church but mantillas are simply another form of head covering... And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church, I find this really puzzling. Its ok to wear a head covering if you're a woman in Crete or Belarus but everyone else is "pretending" or something?

[Punch]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

Amen.

[PeterTheAleut]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it.  

I'm genuinely sorry you feel this way, but what you just saw on this thread is only the most recent manifestation of a problem Gebre and I have faced together many times on this forum, a problem that goes back much farther than you may know. I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you. Gebre just tripped it. What I said to him is something I think he needed to hear, and I stand by what I said. I'm not attacking him to be mean spirited to a kind, decent person. I've criticized his reasoning at times, and he mine, because we're both very opinionated and outspoken posters who quite often don't see eye-to-eye and aren't afraid to say so. He's not as weak and defenseless as you may think. He can handle himself quite well in an argument.

[FatherGiryus]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

[Asteriktos]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

I'd like to nominate this for post of the month, not because of anything relevant/irrelevant to Ionnis, but because I think it's good advice for all of us.

[augustin717]

 

Its ok to wear a head covering if you're a woman in Crete or Belarus but everyone else is "pretending" or something?

Although it's not advisable to contradict catechumens, my answer will still "yes, for the most part."

[Punch]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

[orthonorm]

I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Jesus would disagree.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

[stashko]

I also second this as post of the month.........I've noticed it also......

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

[ozgeorge]

And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church,

Not in the Greek Church it isn't.

[FatherGiryus]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church,

Not in the Greek Church it isn't.

[ozgeorge]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

GOA. The same one Ionnis was referring to.

[Achronos]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

GOA. The same one Ionnis was referring to.

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

[PeterTheAleut]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

I'd like to nominate this for post of the month, not because of anything relevant/irrelevant to Ionnis, but because I think it's good advice for all of us.

Nomination duly documented...

[ozgeorge]

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

Which makes it statistically neither the mean nor the norm, hence, not "normal". 

[Ortho_cat]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

I don't think it's appropriate to criticize the faith of another person in this manner.

[Achronos]

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

Which makes it statistically neither the mean nor the norm, hence, not "normal". 

My apologies, I thought you were singling out the Greek Church that they don't, but yes not the norm. Why is that exactly, in regards to GOA?

[Achronos]

So who would burn me first at the stake if I decided to wear this?



Or this:

[augustin717]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

[quietmorning]

There are a lot of people at my church that wear black t-shirts or black long sleeve t-shirts and black pants - either jeans or dockers to allow themselves to not have to concentrate on clothes. It seems to work very well for them.  I don't know if that fits what you are needing in your worship, but maybe it's a suggestion that might help.

I hate thinking about clothes. . . absolutely hate it.  If I could go to church in a sack, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Not because I'm lazy, but because it really is disconcerting what the latest 'fad' is, how people are judged by what they wear, etc.  Life is more than clothes - people are totally worth more than clothes.

I hope His mercy and wisdom shows you the way you should go - as this seems to be very important to you.  And if His will is that you wear a robe - that you would have the courage and fortitude to do so.  It's His will that's important. 

[podkarpatska]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

I don't think it's appropriate to criticize the faith of another person in this manner.

Agreed.

[podkarpatska]

So who would burn me first at the stake if I decided to wear this?



Or this:

In any parish of my Diocese you would not be permitted to dress in such a manner unless you were at least a duly tonsured reader within any jurisdiction in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. You would not be 'burned at the stake' but you would need to be corrected by the pastor for what would clearly be an attempt by you to imply that you were somehow a reader, sub-deacon or member of the clergy. If you were to continue to dress in such a way, at some point the matter would properly be referred to the ruling Bishop. What exactly are you trying to prove?

[stashko]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

It is confusing with all robes walking  around, one reader or cantor had a cross as big as the Bishops around his neck...I confused him for clergy and kissed his hand ,, he corrected me ,and said he wasn't a priest..see the confustion it can create.....

[Achronos]

In any parish of my Diocese you would not be permitted to dress in such a manner unless you were at least a duly tonsured reader within any jurisdiction in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. You would not be 'burned at the stake' but you would need to be corrected by the pastor for what would clearly be an attempt by you to imply that you were somehow a reader, sub-deacon or member of the clergy. If you were to continue to dress in such a way, at some point the matter would properly be referred to the ruling Bishop. What exactly are you trying to prove?

I was actually joking.

There are a lot of people at my church that wear black t-shirts or black long sleeve t-shirts and black pants - either jeans or dockers to allow themselves to not have to concentrate on clothes. It seems to work very well for them.  I don't know if that fits what you are needing in your worship, but maybe it's a suggestion that might help.

I hate thinking about clothes. . . absolutely hate it.  If I could go to church in a sack, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Not because I'm lazy, but because it really is disconcerting what the latest 'fad' is, how people are judged by what they wear, etc.  Life is more than clothes - people are totally worth more than clothes.

I hope His mercy and wisdom shows you the way you should go - as this seems to be very important to you.  And if His will is that you wear a robe - that you would have the courage and fortitude to do so.  It's His will that's important. 

Agreed.

[minasoliman]

There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  ):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

[Punch]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

In the first Orthodox Church that I attended, the robe in the upper photo was called a Gibi and was worn by any adult serving behind the Iconostasis, tonsured or not.  One simply did not enter the holy place in street clothes.  In the Russian parish that I attended, only the monks and one reader wore a robe similar to the Gibi.  The reader was allowed to wear his because that is what he wore in the Greek Church as a reader.  The rest of us wore altar server vestments even if we were adults.  In my current Church, Serbian, the men wore street cloths behind the Iconostasis.  I am allowed to wear the Gibi because I was blessed to do so in one of my former Churches, and I explained to the Priest that my conscience is troubled by being in the presence of the altar in street clothes.  The Priest had no problem with this and blessed me to wear the Gibi.

So, I have seen many examples of laymen wearing some form of vestment when serving with the Priest.  I will say that I have only seen Readers and above wearing these robes when not serving.

[augustin717]

 I guess I'll have to somehow increase my level of tolerance for this. It's something that is just not done where I come from and it looks pretentious to me. We only had a sacristan that just wore street clothes.

[PeterTheAleut]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

In my parish, even a tonsured reader is not permitted to wear his cassock unless he is actively serving as a reader.

[Marc1152]

If you want to wear a Reader Cassock than do the hard work required to become one.

[FatherGiryus]

Well, if you really want to go the extra mile, get a robe with a matching hat...

[Eugenio]

Ehhh, why wear something drab and brown when you could go all flashy!

Dressing as Star Wars Emperor Palpatine's Royal Guard would turn more heads at church.

[podkarpatska]

Ehhh, why wear something drab and brown when you could go all flashy!

Dressing as Star Wars Emperor Palpatine's Royal Guard would turn more heads at church.

All kidding aside, wearing a robe to any Church that I know of if you were not clergy or in some Greek Churches part of the choir, would turn pretty much all heads from the most kindly, pious person to the biggest hypocrite in the parish. After reading all of the serious and funny posts I think that is the answer to the original question. So, if you want to wear such a robe, be prepared for the reaction. I don't know you but I would be worried about someone who would want to draw such attention to him or herself by wearing such an outfit which I think would distract the rest of the faithful. Just my opinion.

[synLeszka]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

[Ortho_cat]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

[Marc1152]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

[Shlomlokh]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

These aren't the Orthodox you're looking for. Move along!

In Christ,
Andrew

[podkarpatska]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

[stashko]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

[podkarpatska]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

Just to clarify- I am not talking about the Church but Russian nationalism.

[stashko]

Okey Dokey !.....

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

Just to clarify- I am not talking about the Church but Russian nationalism.

[Ortho_cat]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

Wow, those guys are old school. They don't even have pews!

[vamrat]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

No need to be sore losers.  My family tree (in the last century) has at least one Russian bullet in it and I don't feel the same vehemence for them as some people here.

On subject, I feel more uncomfortable in a Church w/o at least a few robes in it.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Faith Issues (Moderator: Michał Kalina) > Topic: Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?