Can I wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy?

[Achronos]

Please don't ask why

Something along the lines of this:

[Asteriktos]

Please don't ask why

Something along the lines of this:
[/img]

Lol, please do, and could you take pictures of the looks on the faces of the parishioners?    Seriously though, I dunno, I can't see anything wrong with it, though you might get some dirty looks. Maybe giving a heads up to the priest and/or deacon first would be good?

[Iconodule]

Yes, but the canons stipulate: "If a layman enter a temple of God in a dorky Western monk's robe, let him smack himself repeatedly in the face with a wooden board whilst repeating pie jesu domine, dona eis requiem." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0&feature=fvst

[FormerReformer]

Yes, but the canons stipulate: "If a layman enter a temple of God in a dorky Western monk's robe, let him smack himself repeatedly in the face with a wooden board whilst repeating pie jesu domine, dona eis requiem." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0&feature=fvst

Funny, I don't remember reading that in the canons.  I thought it came later in the Book of Armaments...

[Achronos]

Yes, but the canons stipulate: "If a layman enter a temple of God in a dorky Western monk's robe, let him smack himself repeatedly in the face with a wooden board whilst repeating pie jesu domine, dona eis requiem." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0&feature=fvst

LOL!! Will do Asteriktos!

[quietmorning]

Well, you certainly can't be arrested for indecent exposure. . .

I'll pass you some calamine lotion after you take it off - the burlap will certainly itch!

Seriously, though - my main concern would be whether it would be disruptive for someone else . . .or a stumbling block to them in some way.  It certainly would bend a few necks.  So, looking at your motives - which I have no idea what they are - but it's totally not necessary for me to know - are your motives selfless?  Are they loving?  Are they humble?  Is this necessary?  Are you doing it for the pure sake of Christ?  Are your motives honest? 

Though you might be mistaken for Francis of Assisi and then the Priest will have to get someone to shovel up all the manure from the animals you seem to collect. THAT might not make him very happy. 

[Asteriktos]

Btw, this thread reminded me of this video 

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Yes, but the canons stipulate: "If a layman enter a temple of God in a dorky Western monk's robe, let him smack himself repeatedly in the face with a wooden board whilst repeating pie jesu domine, dona eis requiem." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0&feature=fvst

[quietmorning]

Btw, this thread reminded me of this video 

HAHAHA!!

[Gamliel]

Please don't ask why

Something along the lines of this:

[b]Obi Wan Kenobi?[/b]

[Asteriktos]

[b]Obi Wan Kenobi?[/b]

Or possibly Oobedoob Scoobi-Doobi Benubi...

[deusveritasest]

Seriously, though - my main concern would be whether it would be disruptive for someone else . . .or a stumbling block to them in some way.  It certainly would bend a few necks.  So, looking at your motives - which I have no idea what they are - but it's totally not necessary for me to know - are your motives selfless?  Are they loving?  Are they humble?  Is this necessary?  Are you doing it for the pure sake of Christ?  Are your motives honest? 

Great advice.

[PoorFoolNicholas]

Forgive me for prying, but, in my 4+ years of attending many different parishes, in many different states/cities, I have never run into a situation where I had to wear such attire. Like I said, forgive me for prying, but what is your reason for wanting/needing to wear such robes to a Divine Liturgy?

[Asteriktos]

Forgive me for prying, but, in my 4+ years of attending many different parishes, in many different states/cities, I have never run into a situation where I had to wear such attire. Like I said, forgive me for prying, but what is your reason for wanting/needing to wear such robes to a Divine Liturgy?

Maybe he's going to a Star Wars convention right after liturgy, and if his date--who is an uber-geeky star wars chick--sees him in clothes more typical of Church she'll think he's a spirituality-geek, dump him, and his whole life will be ruined forever and ever.

http://theageofvolcanoes.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/star_wars_babe-thumb.jpg

I know I'd wear a robe to divine liturgy for her if that was necessary.  



CAUTION: Some may find the above photo of a Carrie Fisher/Princess Leia imitation, which I have masked by turning it into a link, offensive. Viewer discretion is therefore advised.  -PtA

[Ambrose of Milan]

It is against the law. "Thou shalt now wear the robe of a Jedi without express approval of the council." 2 Corellians 2:15

[Gamliel]

I usually go like this:    It gives our priest an interesting challenge when distributing the Eucharist.

[Michał Kalina]

IMO it would be OK without the hood on.

[podkarpatska]

Here in the States, a similar hooded robe, only in white, would be quite wrong! 

[pensateomnia]

Please don't ask why

Are you a Roman Catholic mendicant/friar? If not, then no, you may not wear such a robe!

It is extremely inappropriate to falsely wear the garb of religious office you do not hold, especially in a liturgical context. Stranger still to pretend to hold a heterodox office!

[Punch]

Please don't ask why

Are you a Roman Catholic mendicant/friar? If not, then no, you may not wear such a robe!

It is extremely inappropriate to falsely wear the garb of religious office you do not hold, especially in a liturgical context. Stranger still to pretend to hold a heterodox office!

Well now, if he cut a hole around the buttocks area, he could say that he held the office of Flatulant.  Then he could wear the robe.

[Asteriktos]

Please don't ask why

Are you a Roman Catholic mendicant/friar? If not, then no, you may not wear such a robe!

It is extremely inappropriate to falsely wear the garb of religious office you do not hold, especially in a liturgical context. Stranger still to pretend to hold a heterodox office!

This is one of the people I warned you about who would give you dirty looks  

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Please don't ask why

Are you a Roman Catholic mendicant/friar? If not, then no, you may not wear such a robe!

It is extremely inappropriate to falsely wear the garb of religious office you do not hold, especially in a liturgical context. Stranger still to pretend to hold a heterodox office!

This is one of the people I warned you about who would give you dirty looks  

Yet, I do agree with his objection, although I may have phrased it a bit more gently. Seriously, though I think the OP may be driving at a deeper question--how to efface oneself and not stand out. Of course, if he were to use such a robe, he would certainly stand out. If that is indeed his query, my answer would be to cloth himself in the manner of most folks in his parish.

[Gamliel]

When I first started attending an Orthodox Church, I asked the priest what the dress code was.  Probably best to ask your priest.

[Alveus Lacuna]

If as a layperson you wear a robe like that people will think you're a total weirdo, and rightly so. I'd think you were one too.

Never mind the fact that the priest might actually think you are mocking his robes by wearing this kind of costume. Keep in mind that Orthodoxy is not a neat roleplaying game where you get to "play" at medieval monastic life. It is a living ancient tradition, and most if not all people would see this as disrespecting that fact.

Try to blend in. The whole point of going to church is to pray, not to create a circus where everyone around you is staring at you the whole time.

Do you already wear one of these?

[Asteriktos]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

[Asteriktos]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ...  

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Well, I would agree with that. I don't know, I just wouldn't find it offensive if he did it. I'd actually laugh and find it quite funny, and I would be much more likely to strike up a conversation with him afterwards, thinking he must have an interesting sense of humor. I would think that wearing shorts and sandals to Church was worse (but still not really that bad) than wearing a robe... I know I'm a bit strange though  

EDIT--Also, for the record, I generally support the idea of "blending in," and "When in Rome, doing what the Romans do," as far as what dress is appropriate... I just think it'd be an overreaction to get offended...

[Alveus Lacuna]

What if I wore a robe like this?

[ozgeorge]

What if I wore a robe like this?

Black with purple? Are you mad?

[Asteriktos]

What if I wore a robe like this?

With the smile included? Smile back. If he winks, let him know that I play on a different team than him.

[stashko]

Study and  become a Orthodox Cantor or join the Church choir, they may put you in a Orthodox Robe ,,this way you'll  fit in...

[John of the North]

Please don't ask why

Why??

[Ortho_cat]

Ok, next sunday, I'm seriously hauling out the snuggie. It's cold in our cathedral!

[PeterTheAleut]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

Kinda like a story I heard once about St. John Maximovitch. His superior once ordered him to wear shoes, since he had a reputation for doing almost everything, including celebrating Liturgy, barefoot. St. John wore his shoes, all right... hanging by their laces around his neck. "You told me to wear shoes. You just didn't tell me where to wear them."

[Iconodule]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Woah. I'm assuming she did this before she entered monasticism?

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

Achronos, I would have no problem with you wearing yours, as long as I can wear mine.

[LizaSymonenko]

I've got!

I was thinking that maybe Achronos was trying to hide an imperfection of some kind - peg leg, etc.

However, I am now thinking that he wishes to attend services incognito.  A chance to go and pray, an not be recognized while doing it. 
For example, if a celebrity or politician wished to go to church, and not necessarily be associated with that church in public.

You know...some politicians wish to remain "neutral", and their religious affiliation may be held against them.

So, in that case...what's a person to do?

Maybe attend services in the middle of the week when fewer people are in attendance?
Maybe just swallow the pill and be proud of your faith, come what may.

I would pick the second.

I am Orthodox, and while it's not the most "popular" thing to be, and sometimes even makes our work/school/social life difficult, I don't care.  It's the most important thing in my life.

[Iconodule]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

[podkarpatska]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

I think we can be  pretty sure they weren't going to church 'incognito'! 

[FatherGiryus]

As long as you pick out a hat to wear with your robe from here: http://www.dieter-philippi.de/en/the-philippi-collection/head-coverings-1

[FatherGiryus]

I forgot to add, it is better to wear a cape or robe you have made yourself: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Things/FCloak/FCloak_pattern.htm

However, I would counsel against bringing cardboard swords or coat-hanger bows to church.  They might be a distraction.  Plus, they will severely impede your dating prospects (provided that you can find a potential mate who likes the idea of a spouse who wears a cowl to church).

I considered making a cloak, but then reconsidered it because I live in a city and drive everywhere I go.  Cloaks and cars do not go well together.

[Marc1152]

Obi Wan vs. Darth Vader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA



Summary of video added to make post compliant with forum prohibition against naked links. -PtA

[FatherGiryus]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Of course, while I think all of us found the original Princess Leah quite stunning in the original series, she has changed a bit: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/12/carrie-fisher-signs-on-as-new-face-of-jenny-craig-after-75lb-weight-gain/

Obi Wan vs. Darth Vader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA



Summary of video added to make post compliant with forum prohibition against naked links. -PtA

[Margaret S.]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Woah. I'm assuming she did this before she entered monasticism?

This is Pelagia and I can't remember if she became an actual nun or not but I do remember being terribly distressed by the story - apparently she once drowned a litter of kittens. Just once as I recall, drowning cats wasn't a hobby, but still I can't say she's on my favourites list.

Regards,
Margaret

[orthonorm]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ...  

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Woah. I'm assuming she did this before she entered monasticism?

This is Pelagia and I can't remember if she became an actual nun or not but I do remember being terribly distressed by the story - apparently she once drowned a litter of kittens. Just once as I recall, drowning cats wasn't a hobby, but still I can't say she's on my favourites list.

Regards,
Margaret

Maybe she exorcised a bunch of demons into them.

I like pigs way more than cats. Nobler and taste better.

[deusveritasest]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Ick! 

[Shanghaiski]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

[augustin717]

Maybe he's a Fool for Christ... 

One of my books on a Fool for Christ, "Seraphim's Seraphim", talks about how she would drown cats in her free time. Sometimes people are really just crazy!

Woah. I'm assuming she did this before she entered monasticism?

This is Pelagia and I can't remember if she became an actual nun or not but I do remember being terribly distressed by the story - apparently she once drowned a litter of kittens. Just once as I recall, drowning cats wasn't a hobby, but still I can't say she's on my favourites list.

Regards,
Margaret

It's common in certain parts of the world. Where I come from is done without a second thought as a form of population control. The same for puppies.
Sergei Esenin, I think, has a beautiful poem called "The Bitch's Song" on the subject.

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Of course, while I think all of us found the original Princess Leah quite stunning in the original series, she has changed a bit: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/12/carrie-fisher-signs-on-as-new-face-of-jenny-craig-after-75lb-weight-gain/

Obi Wan vs. Darth Vader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA



Summary of video added to make post compliant with forum prohibition against naked links. -PtA

She's not the only one.....sigh.....

[podkarpatska]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

They were going to a call-back audition for the Inquisition scene in Mel Brook's History of the World , part 2 maybe?

[Ortho_cat]

One thing that cracked me up in The Fellowship of the Ring was when they said the Nazgul were "disguised" as black riders.



Yeah, nice disguise.

That's just a Western Roman Catholic thing!

They were going to a call-back audition for the Inquisition scene in Mel Brook's History of the World , part 2 maybe?

The inquisition...look out sin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8

[Fr. George]

^ One of my favorite segments from that film.  Used it once in a History class... (That was really fun.)

[PeterTheAleut]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

[dcommini]

If he can wear a robe can i wear this? ...

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=509057648709&set=t.147803195 

That is a pic of me for those who are wondering...

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

[PeterTheAleut]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

[podkarpatska]

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

Thank you, that makes sense.

[FatherGiryus]

I am relieved.  Thank you for the clarification.

Recently, someone sent me a 'naked link,' only it really did live up to both your terminology and what it also sounds like.  Be cautious.

I didn't think there was any nudity in the new Star Wars.  Thanks for being vigilant.

Uhh, that's not exactly what I meant by naked links.

I was puzzled by that as well, but I think we know what you mean by that, maybe.....

In accordance with the rules of this forum, one must always include with a link a brief introduction to the contents of the other end of the link. One is not permitted to just post a link with no explanation of what someone else will see if they click it. I have dubbed these unaccompanied links "naked links".

[minasoliman]

How about the Jalabiya robe?

[Achronos]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

Hilarious responses in this thread though.

[stashko]

What about Ethiopian Orthodox, Indian Orthodox, Middle Eastern Orthodox that wear their ethnic Cloths and attend a Eastern Orthodox Church in the U. S..People get use to Different Cultures even in churches, like on the street ,so eventually they pay it no mind....Life goes on....

[PeterTheAleut]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

[deusveritasest]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy. My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

[PeterTheAleut]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy.

Yes, I am aware that that's what he was talking about, so that's what I'm talking about.

My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

So (continuing from my thought above) social interaction is NOT what I had in mind. The Divine Liturgy is first the prayer of the community.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

But this isn't about sex, Gebre.

[Gamliel]

You probably don't want to wear this: 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead. I have no patience with the "you might be a distraction" argument. I wonder where these voices of concern are when it comes to women coming to Church in mini skirts and tight-fitting clothes. And we're concerned about whether or not to wear a robe to Church? The fact that this is even a legitimate question is indicative of how far we've strayed as an Orthodox Christian community.

Selam

But this isn't about sex, Gebre.

I say everyone should be FORCED to wear robes- men and wome alike! That will stop sin and lust and all other evils. Listen to me!

Selam

[deusveritasest]

Haha I like that quite a bit mina!

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why join a community only to stand off by yourself?

He was just talking about during the Liturgy.

Yes, I am aware that that's what he was talking about, so that's what I'm talking about.

My experience has been that social interaction during Liturgy is much less than after. Is there something wrong with this?

So (continuing from my thought above) social interaction is NOT what I had in mind. The Divine Liturgy is first the prayer of the community.

I can see how this might inhibit social interaction, but how would it cut him off from the community in the sense you are thinking of?

[PeterTheAleut]

You probably don't want to wear this:

No, only a bishop is permitted to wear that. But then you'd have to make this the music of the entrance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8


ps. I'm having great difficulty getting that image to load in all three of my favorite browsers, so if anyone else is having this problem, I think it's because the server where the image is located has forbidden us to see it. At least that's the message I got when I tried to turn the image into a hyperlink and click the link. About the only thing I can do successfully is paste the link into my browser's address line, which is possible if you quote the post with the image and extract the link from the quote.

[Ionnis]

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy; I feel that I would be more immersed in it rather than just wearing civilian clothes. The strange thing is that it probably won't look so humble to those who are wearing different attire. It's just more of keeping to myself, being in prayer during the Liturgy, but as someone mentioned before it may cause a distraction for someone else.

A serious question: are you being serious?  Would you seriously where a robe like the one you posted to church?  My response is contingent upon your answer.

[Cognomen]

I was initially hoping that this thread was a joke, but I'm surprised that it has taken this turn.  It seems painfully obvious that wearing a massive, strange robe, as a relatively new Catechumen nonetheless, could be tremendously distracting and detrimental to the service.  That doesn't mean that other forms of inappropriate clothing are appropriate.  To think that we can and should just wear whatever we feel like (to Divine Liturgy), regardless of the consequences, seems naive and forgive me, a bit self-centered.

Either way, this is clearly something that Achronos should take up with his priest, not an internet forum. Perhaps if you are distracted, try to arrange a better place to stand.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.


Selam

[Alveus Lacuna]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I don't have a problem with modesty, I have a problem with pretentious posturing and fantasy role-playing. One can quite easily dress modestly without putting on an outfit that one has no legitimate historical connection with.

You probably dress like the Ethiopian men when you attend liturgy, and in that case it's fine and makes sense because you are fitting in and keeping the right custom. If it was customary for everyone to wear these robes, then I'd tell him to go ahead. But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

[stashko]

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

[minasoliman]

I really do like the idea that the Ethiopian Church is quite uniform in the liturgy with all the white robes worn.

[Asteriktos]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

[ozgeorge]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

[Ionnis]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

[stashko]

Your Not really serious About this Post are you.........come on you must be joking.....

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

[Cognomen]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy. Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life. I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

Desiring to dress modestly?  That is not what modesty is in this context.  It seems that he either wants to draw attention to himself, which he certainly would, or that he hasn't considered that this may cause a distraction.
From my limited understanding of Orthodoxy, doing whatever makes you feel more "spiritually focused," without guidance or consideration of consequences isn't really the prescribed path for those of us inquiring/new to the church.  

Again, don't you think that his parish priest would be the best person to ultimately decide this, not us?

[PeterTheAleut]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

[Asteriktos]

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

Hmm... (they need to make a questioning emoticon, but with a smile instead of a frown)

[Achronos]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

All my question was that could you wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy, and it was interesting to see the respones. My picture was just an example. What's more prideful the guy who dresses up in the latest Gucci suit or the man who wears but a simple robe or at the very least a one piece suit? Where he doesn't care how eloquent he dresses but comes as he is and judged by his heart alone?

So you are going to take a glance at a man in a robe and call him pretentious, self-centered, boastful, prideful etc without even conversing with that person to see what is actually in their heart? Does the mouth not speak what is in the heart?

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?

[Margaret S.]

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

You mean with a peineta (the decorative comb)? I'm trying to work out what you mean by "full blown". I used to wear a mantilla all the time to church because it was what was worn in my previous tradition and it never occurred to me for a second that it could or would distract anyone. I stopped when I set fire to one and my hair during Pascha and realised for the first time (I'm not very bright) that there are an awful lot more candles in an Orthodox Church than an Anglo-Catholic one but I do admit the smell of burning hair was very, very distracting 

Regards,
Margaret

[PeterTheAleut]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

[Alpo]

Well the reason for wearing a robe allows me to be more attentive to the Divine Liturgy;

Doesn't wearing something more formal do the same? That works for me. Also, that wouldn't probably arouse any attention and divine liturgy is a feast after all.

Althought I must admit that wearing a robe is a fascinating idea...

[Achronos]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?

[Ambrose of Milan]

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh?

Stop the rhyming now, I mean it.

[ozgeorge]

So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?

One of the most difficult things a Christian is asked to do by Christ is to "deny himself". What this entails is best understood if we think about what it means to "deny" someone else. In His greatest hour of need, when He was all alone facing ruthless and unjust treatment and needed a friend, Christ was "denied" three times by St. Peter. That is, he behaved as though he never knew Christ Who had been his friend for three years. Rather than treat others this way, Christ says that we must deny ourselves.  In this sense then, no, there is no room for "individualism" for those who want to follow Christ. "If anyone wants to follow Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross every day and follow Me."  And the Cross looks like the letter "I" crossed out.

[podkarpatska]

Perhaps such a robe would be appropriate if one found icons in the bathroom on the main floor of the Church?  (me bad, couldn't help myself..... )

[PeterTheAleut]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

I have a slight problem with this, couldn't your actions be seen as prideful? If what she does and what she wears brings her in a closer relationship with God, who are you to judge that? The Greek parish I attended before there was a woman who would basically be in a white robe, head coverings, the whole thing. Did it cause attention? I have no doubt, but why would anyone have a problem with the way she presented herself in the Liturgy? Are you going to Liturgy to criticize someone's attire or there to worship and pray?

The same could be asked of you. Are you going to the Liturgy to draw undue attention to yourself, or are you there to worship and pray, and--I might add--as part of the community and not as a mere individual?

Part of the community and to worship and pray. So indiviualism is not wanted eh? Is there something wrong with being content to myself during the Divine Liturgy?

Yes, there is. The Divine Liturgy is the common work of the parish/monastic community, not the individually disparate works of multiple individuals. There is no sense of "to each his own" there. If you want to pray as an individual and nothing more, then stay home.

[FatherGiryus]

Well, Achronos, you asked in the beginning for people to not ask why you were asking, so people have to guess as to what the motivations might be for wearing one.  That is a bit of a trap, no?  That's why I just had fun with it.

But, now, since you are getting serious about the responses, perhaps it is time for a serious answer.

There is a difference between a man who comes in a robe because that is what he always wears and a man who comes to draw attention to himself with the same robe.  The man who comes in the Gucci suit may also wear it for attention, while the other wears it because he is rich and yet also gives a great deal to the poor and the church (I have known such people).  When you get into saying what is 'prideful,' it is asking like what murder is worse.  The fact is that murder is murder and pride is pride.  Yes, there are degrees, but it does not pay for me to excuse my pride because it appears smaller than someone else's.

This is at the core of the matter: whether your desire to wear a rope that you normally do not trumps the distinct possibility that you will distract other people while they are worshipping or, at least, trying to.  Do you wear the robe out of respect for God and your neighbor, or out of some as-of-yet undisclosed personal reason?  This is not about judging the appearance of another person, but measuring your own motives.  There is a difference.  One is examining the outer appearance of another, while the other is self-examination.

I was taught long ago to never compare my insides to another person's outsides.  It has proved to be very handy advice.  Of course, I can learn a great deal about someone's insides by their outsides, but there are also lots of complicating factors.  For example, the rich man who dresses in fine garments, yet gives away a great deal of his wealth, and quite a bit of it anonymously.

I used to deride a man for constantly coming to church in shorts, up until I noticed that he brought more visitors and relatives and friends to church than any 20 other people in the community.  I cut him some slack, though I would have preferred him to do the same thing in slacks! 

When YOU decide to wear a robe, you must examine your own motives rather than speculating how others will sin against you by judging you.  Certainly, all of us judge others, and so it is natural to conclude that when you take the big leap to change your appearance that others will notice you.  But, engaging in speculation on whether they will judge you for being prideful or just dismiss you as a kook or even perhaps feel sorry for you for having to draw attention to yourself is really a crazy-making effort, since there is no telling what the individual judgments of others will be. 

My conclusion would be to say that most folks hide their hearts very well, and so it is unreasonable to assume we can even have enough access to their 'hearts' to appreciate them for who they really are, and so we go on their appearances until we can observe their behavior.  I would even go so far as to say that what most people say and what is going on within them is two different things.  Very few people are utterly honest.

The homeless man can be just as self-willed in his poverty as the rich man in his wealth (there is a certain Orthodox blogger who has made this primary occupation, or at least preoccupation).  However complicated the reason, it is foolish to go much further than one's own motivations and the risks one will take with one's own soul.  St. Justin the Martyr told Tripho that Christians dress no different than other people. 

When we do, it is out of obedience.  When you receive an obedience to wear a robe, then wear the robe you are given to wear.  Otherwise, wear what is proper to your gender and station in life and accept the life that God has given you.  To do otherwise is to reject the gift of your life.

<snip>
All my question was that could you wear a robe to the Divine Liturgy, and it was interesting to see the respones. My picture was just an example. What's more prideful the guy who dresses up in the latest Gucci suit or the man who wears but a simple robe or at the very least a one piece suit? Where he doesn't care how eloquent he dresses but comes as he is and judged by his heart alone?

So you are going to take a glance at a man in a robe and call him pretentious, self-centered, boastful, prideful etc without even conversing with that person to see what is actually in their heart? Does the mouth not speak what is in the heart?

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?

[Alveus Lacuna]

What is more humble to wear, the homeless man on the street who has holes in his jeans, ripped up shirt standing next to a man with a 2000 dollar suit? Or should that man "dress up" to fit in with the rest of the congregation? I tell you I would appreciate a man and respect him if he said wearing a robe allows him to be more in tuned spiritually with God, how can I say otherwise? Now of course dressing up like Spiderman to DL is very disrespectful but a mere robe?

I think that's a false setup. The homeless man coming as he is is most certainly one thing, but the man in the suit can be more humble if the homeless man's attitude is something akin to "Man, I'll show all these rich snobs what a real Christian looks like. I'm a beggar and in poverty, and they're all such hypocrites dripping with gold."

Well first of all, it was likely their gold and their ancestors' gold that built the temple that the homeless man is standing in, which they worked for with faith and love toward God their whole lives. Blessed are the poor, but also remember that some homeless people have not nobly renounced the world, but rather have been reduced to having nothing because they are so consumed with their passions, All of that to say that the whole "rich vs. poor" holiness dichotomy is a false one. What matters is what's in the heart. If someone is trying to impress everyone with their suit, or their weird smelly clothes, then that person is in the wrong state of mind for services.

If a homeless man comes dressed in a way that some find distracting because he has no other clothes or is just looking into Christianity then there is no room to judge. But we do have to be discerning. So the homeless man might be a distraction, but not intentionally, and even if he did know and wish to dress in a more inconspicuous manner, he wouldn't have any other choices. In that case, the congregation would need to love him and give him a seat of honor and just deal with the smell. I have friends who I must say might be doing the opposite sometimes, being somehow "fashionably smelly" as travelers/drifters from good middle-class homes.

You probably never wear a robe, and so that's why I keep calling it role-playing. If if you do it all the time, people at the grocery store would find it equally strange. Strange isn't always bad (St. Xenia of Petersberg), but m ore often the most humble route is to blend in at church so as not to be a distraction.

[Ionnis]

Achronos, I'm not judging you. I am seriously concerned about you though.  All that I have to go by is what you are posting here and I am taking that into consideration.  One things the Fathers teach time and time again is that in order to reach those higher levels of the spiritual life, to contemplate the divine, one must have purified himself of the passions. Purification from passion is a long, laborious process that for most of us will not be completed in this life time. Many of the Saints did extraordinary things and relied on external and mechanical means to enhance their prayer, but they only did so after purifying themselves of the passions.  The Fathers say that reliance on external means to enhance prayer, for those who have not been purified of passions, is spiritually dangerous, as pride is almost a certain downfall.  I caution you, that is all.  Perhaps the Lord has given you special grace and you have been purified so early on.  This is not unheard of, this was the case with St. Silouan the Athonite, but it is rare.  So I don't judge you, but like I said, have a great deal of concern for you.  Hopefully your parish priest will be of use to you in this. 

[augustin717]

Comm'on, as if it is a given that homeless people are even allowed into some churches or, if they are allowed for the liturgy, they are denied entrance to the pious-talk, I mean, coffee hour. I know a "mission-oriented" church that does that. They said: "they don't come for the Divine Liturgy anyways, only for money or food"
But this is slightly off-topic.

[Schultz]

FWIW, until recently, I wore a Scottish kilt on a daily basis (before you ask, it was because I could and I'm weird like that) except when going to church.  Even though it was my normal, everyday garb, it would have unnecessarily drawn attention to myself. 

You want to wear something humbling w/o drawing attention to yourself?  Go simple and monochrome.  There was a man who came to our parish for a while (who has since moved away) who wore a simple black cotton button down shirt, black trousers, and black shoes.  I've seen others wearing shades of tan (the be-all, end-all of colors that blend in!).  Wearing a robe in 20th century America is calling attention to oneself, period.  It is not humbling, it is showing off.  I'm sorry, but that's how I see it and I'm what many consider to be a "peacock".  I know my own when I see them.

Knock it off and blend in if you want to be humble.  Don't worry about the guy wearing the Gucci suit, it's not your concern; keep your eyes on your own plate. 

[FatherGiryus]

Amen! (from another guy who's always struggled to blend, but mostly because of a big mouth).

FWIW, until recently, I wore a Scottish kilt on a daily basis (before you ask, it was because I could and I'm weird like that) except when going to church.  Even though it was my normal, everyday garb, it would have unnecessarily drawn attention to myself. 

You want to wear something humbling w/o drawing attention to yourself?  Go simple and monochrome.  There was a man who came to our parish for a while (who has since moved away) who wore a simple black cotton button down shirt, black trousers, and black shoes.  I've seen others wearing shades of tan (the be-all, end-all of colors that blend in!).  Wearing a robe in 20th century America is calling attention to oneself, period.  It is not humbling, it is showing off.  I'm sorry, but that's how I see it and I'm what many consider to be a "peacock".  I know my own when I see them.

Knock it off and blend in if you want to be humble.  Don't worry about the guy wearing the Gucci suit, it's not your concern; keep your eyes on your own plate. 

[Shanghaiski]

There is a false humility that is really just pride. Just being "normal" should be humbling enough for you with regard to dress. Attack your pride, instead, with obedience to Christ's commandments and the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church. Cultivate peace of soul and silence. The catechumenate, especially, is a time to put aside all your silly personal notions which you have held up to this time and form your mind and life to the mind and life of the Church. It is a time to realize that you really do not know anything, that you are a spiritual idiot in need of instruction. Did that raise your hackles? Then no robe-wearing is going to humble you.

[orthonorm]

Comm'on, as if it is a given that homeless people are even allowed into some churches or, if they are allowed for the liturgy, they are denied entrance to the pious-talk, I mean, coffee hour. I know a "mission-oriented" church that does that. They said: "they don't come for the Divine Liturgy anyways, only for money or food"
But this is slightly off-topic.

During the week and much of the weekend I look pretty much like every homeless person you would see around me (for reasons due to my work, where I live, and people I deal with (when in Rome . . .). So during the week, I look like a homeless person at Church. On the weekend, I have time to change into grey slacks, a nice black shirt, and my nice black wool jacket.

I don't think anyone at the parish cares either way. Although for the first couple of visits and even now by those who don't know me, I am asked if I need money or a ride as services / coffee hour ends.

Four square with the post immediately above from Shanghaiski.

[Punch]

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

To the OP, I personally would see no problem wearing the robe.  I would find it far less offensive than some of the getups that I have seen in my years in Church.  The cowl would be a bit over the top since it is the women that should have the head covered and not the man, but that is really about it.  I think the issue is what is in your heart when you do it, not what is in everyone else heart.  If everyone would take the time to tend their own garden, they would find themselves too busy to worry about what is going on in their neighbor's garden.  But then again, we know that is not going to happen.  I, too, prefer a robe.  And fortunately, due to my position, my priest allows me to wear my black Gibi when I serve in the church.  I don't know why, but I have always felt closer to God when I wear it.  I think that there is a lot to be said about wearing special attire before God, and I believe that the Coptics are way ahead of us in this regard.  It has nothing to do with what other people think.  And, if one of our good Christians want to judge you for being prideful, let them.  The sin is on them, not you.  On the other hand, you should get the blessing of your priest regarding the matter.  Doing something in disobedience is never good.  If my priest told me that I could not wear my Gibi, I would not.  I would not be happy about it, but that would be my problem to deal with and not that of anyone else. 

[Quinault]

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

[PeterTheAleut]

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging.

[orthonorm]

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

Any naturally born citizen of the USA is a native American. If I were to go as my first folks here in the States dressed, I would go just wearing a bottle of whiskey. Anything else they wore were mere accessories.

[Schultz]

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging.

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.

[Papist]

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging.

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.

I judge you for judging those who judge those how judge.  I kid! I kid!

[orthonorm]

It find some of these responses interesting.  If most of the posters actually believed what they posted, they would not even notice someone coming into Church with a robe on.  But alas, we show our humility by judging what everyone else is doing.

Wow! That's pretty ripe. You judging us for judging.

particularly when the OP asked us for opinions on wearing this type of clothing.

It what you get when you fall into temptation.

[stashko]

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

[Schultz]

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  

[Achronos]

Hmm nothing mentioned after my response I disagree with and I have made errors in regards to bringing up false comparisions which Alveus pointed out. When I made the thread I sincerly thought it would be harmless to wear such a garment (realistically speaking I probably wouldn't) and see if there was something in the Church that would prohibit such a usage.

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

[ozgeorge]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

[Schultz]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.

[ozgeorge]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.

Exactly. We true Christians must reject the things of this world and ensure that our jeans smell of fabric softener and have nice ironed creases. Thankfully, we don't kneel on Sundays, so the crease should stay nice and crisp and see us through coffee hour.

[Schultz]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

As long as you iron them with a nice crease down the front of each leg so they look unfashionable.

ironing your jeans to create such a crease is actually incredibly unfashionable and has been for some time, george.  the in-thing now is to wear raw denim w/o washing it for some time so natural folds develop and create a textured patina effect.

Exactly. We true Christians must reject the things of this world and ensure that our jeans smell of fabric softener and have nice ironed creases. Thankfully, we don't kneel on Sundays, so the crease should stay nice and crisp and see us through coffee hour.

good point!

[Iconodule]

Wear Ed Hardy t-shirts. If you don't feel humble going in, you'll certainly feel humble by the time you leave.

[Ionnis]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

I don't think so.  I wear whatever I have available at the time.  More often than not, that is a pair of jeans.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

You are not his Priest Peter. And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

Selam

[Achronos]

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right?

[Shanghaiski]

Now wearing blue jeans to Divine Liturgy isn't a bad thing is it?

I do it all the time.

[ozgeorge]

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right?

You should see what some of our Saints wear in Church:

[PeterTheAleut]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.

And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

[stashko]

 If i'm right Powwows are gathering of all different tribes ....It's great wonderful...Very elaborate traditional wear.........Quinalt will correct us were where wrong in....She know all about it...

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  

[orthonorm]

What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot.  

Never met a Scot who wasn't a cretin.

[orthonorm]

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that?

God Forbid!

[Asteriktos]

But as it stands, everybody is going to think this guy is a total nut job.

If true, that should help him cultivate quite a lot of humility.

...or spiritual delusion.
The latter is more likely I think.

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right?

You should see what some of our Saints wear in Church:

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded? 

[ozgeorge]

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded? 

No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.

And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation. I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.


Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.

And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation.

But by defending him against what you think are unjust opinions, you are indeed communicating as loudly and clearly as you can what you think of his motives and of what he should do.

I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.

Are you not now judging the intentions and motives of the hearts of those who have opined on this subject, which is exactly the behavior you have condemned in us? Is it somehow commendable when you do it but condemnable when we do? That finger you're pointing at us... do you not see the three pointing back at you?


BTW, Gebre,

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do.

Yes you have. Have you forgotten that you posted the following?

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead.

[Achronos]

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.

[stashko]

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.

Why....

[Marc1152]

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right?

I think Toga's were fancy garb restricted to just a few upper class and not what Jews in general wore during that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga

[PeterTheAleut]

Peter may you please lock this thread? Thank you.

Actually, it would be wrong for me to do so at this time. I don't want to appear as if I'm trying to shut down a poster who disagrees with me. It would be an abuse of my moderatorial authority.

[Achronos]

So I guess Toga's and outfits worn by Jews during Jesus' time are frowned upon too right?

I think Toga's were fancy garb restricted to just a few upper class and not what Jews in general wore during that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga

Oh no I meant to seperate the toga's from the other styles that were being worn at the time.

[Quinault]

I was watching on  U-tube Quite a few Indian Powwows  the Indian traditional  Dances I liked very much ,they didn't seem to be very naked , the woman weren't at all , with there buckskin dresses on  ,the men could for church put on  complete buckskin trousers and a shirt...Im glade there keeping there tradition alive...I really enjoyed watching the dances.....

what I would Like to see all Orthodox revert  back to wearing there ethnic costumes to Church ,and the english converts to Holy Orthodox can don there pilgrim costumes..........

I couldn't go dressed as a pilgrim, I am a native. And the native style of dress would be considered immodest in Western Society. The Quinaults were naked pretty much year round

stashko,

American Indian culture is as diverse as European culture.  What the tribe you saw in that youtube video could have been as culturally distant from Quinalt's as, say, a Cretan is from a Scot. 

The clothing you see at pow-wows is something called regalia. Essentially the best, most showy clothing possible. Pow-wows as they are today are new concepts. In any case, the NW tribes didn't wear a particular type of regalia on a regular basis.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

It seems very silly that a sincere Christian who is desiring to dress modestly and in a manner that he believes will help him be more spiritually focused is causing such controversy.

Echoing what Alveus Lacuna has said, wearing a robe is not at all modest if it draws such attention to yourself because you're the only one wearing one. Unlike what you might think in your often dogmatic frame of mind, there's no one absolute dress code that defines modesty. Modesty is an attitude of the heart, not merely an outward appearance. It is by definition a desire to NOT stand out, to NOT call undue attention to oneself, to NOT cry out "LOOK AT ME! I'M WEARING A ROBE! EVERYONE MARVEL AT MY HUMILITY!"

If everyone wore a robe to church, then maybe it would be modest to wear a robe, since not wearing one would draw undue attention to oneself. However, in all the churches I've attended, only the clergy wear robes. To wear a robe when you're not a member of the clergy only makes you look like clergy, which most see as quite pretentious, the exact opposite of modesty.

Are we not all called to the monastic life in a sense? Perhaps this individual is trying to dress in a manner that will help him lead a spiritual life.

Then let him dress like that at home where he won't stand out from the rest of the community.

I cannot see how any serious minded Christian would be offended by someone wearing a simple robe to Divine Liturgy.

I can. Maybe you just need to get off your high horse and stop being so rigidly dogmatic. There are valid ways to live a serious Christian life that you haven't considered.

Peter, I'm not the one being dogmatic here. The dogma (and condmnation and judgment) is coming from those of you who insist on accusing this poor fellow of arrogance, pride, and individualism simply because he is considering wearing a robe to Church.

He asked for our opinion. Are we to deny him that? Would you rather we lied to him by telling him it's all right for him to do what he proposed? Would you rather we be just as dishonest by concealing what we really think about his question?

The thing NOT solicited here is your opinion of those who have offered their opinions as the OP requested. The thing NOT solicited here is your judgment of those who have been honest as though we are persecuting the poor fellow for simply wanting to be more spiritual.

You are not his Priest Peter.

And neither are you to tell him that he should wear a robe to church and not give a damn what anyone else thinks of him.

And I also didn't know you were the Holy Spirit who could judge the thoughts and intetnions of this person's heart. Why don't you just encourage him to consult his Priest and leave it a that? No need to condemn the poor fellow for asking a sincere question.

And why don't you follow your own advice and stop trying to judge the intentions of those who have offered the opinions the OP asked for?

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do. All I have done is opined that I find it silly that this question is being met with such vehemence, ridicule, judgment, and condemnation.

But by defending him against what you think are unjust opinions, you are indeed communicating as loudly and clearly as you can what you think of his motives and of what he should do.

I imagine that if this poor fellow were to raise the dead or heal the sick in Church, you and few others would accuse him of being self-righteous and trying to draw attention to himself.

Are you not now judging the intentions and motives of the hearts of those who have opined on this subject, which is exactly the behavior you have condemned in us? Is it somehow commendable when you do it but condemnable when we do? That finger you're pointing at us... do you not see the three pointing back at you?


BTW, Gebre,

Nowhere on this thread have I said what he should or shouldn't do.

Yes you have. Have you forgotten that you posted the following?

As long as there isn't any Church Teaching or canon forbidding such a thing, then by all means go ahead.

I never said what he should do. I offered him my opinion that I think it's ok if he wants to do it.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

Selam

[Ionnis]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

[Achronos]

Ionnis that is the very reason why I wanted this thread to be locked.

[Jason.Wike]

No kidding.  I find the whole thing very distressing. It all reminds me of a poor girl in the catechumenate at a Greek parish that I frequented from time to time when the weather prevented me from going to my parish. She would wear a full blown Spanish mantilla to church and of course, sit in the very front row.  She felt like God was teaching her how to be humble and submissive.  It was painful to watch.  So painful in fact that I couldn't bring myself to attend the parish any longer.

Are you certain she isn't of Hispanic heritage and isn't just used to wearing a mantilla to church? There's nothing wrong with sitting in the front row either. I'm not in favour of wearing strange robes to church but mantillas are simply another form of head covering... And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church, I find this really puzzling. Its ok to wear a head covering if you're a woman in Crete or Belarus but everyone else is "pretending" or something?

[Punch]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

Amen.

[PeterTheAleut]

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it.  

I'm genuinely sorry you feel this way, but what you just saw on this thread is only the most recent manifestation of a problem Gebre and I have faced together many times on this forum, a problem that goes back much farther than you may know. I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you. Gebre just tripped it. What I said to him is something I think he needed to hear, and I stand by what I said. I'm not attacking him to be mean spirited to a kind, decent person. I've criticized his reasoning at times, and he mine, because we're both very opinionated and outspoken posters who quite often don't see eye-to-eye and aren't afraid to say so. He's not as weak and defenseless as you may think. He can handle himself quite well in an argument.

[FatherGiryus]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

[Asteriktos]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

I'd like to nominate this for post of the month, not because of anything relevant/irrelevant to Ionnis, but because I think it's good advice for all of us.

[augustin717]

 

Its ok to wear a head covering if you're a woman in Crete or Belarus but everyone else is "pretending" or something?

Although it's not advisable to contradict catechumens, my answer will still "yes, for the most part."

[Punch]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

[orthonorm]

I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Jesus would disagree.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

[stashko]

I also second this as post of the month.........I've noticed it also......

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

[ozgeorge]

And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church,

Not in the Greek Church it isn't.

[FatherGiryus]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

And since heading covering for women is normal in the Orthodox church,

Not in the Greek Church it isn't.

[ozgeorge]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

GOA. The same one Ionnis was referring to.

[Achronos]

Which Greek church would you be referring to?   

GOA. The same one Ionnis was referring to.

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

[PeterTheAleut]

Dear Ionnis,

A small bit of unsolicited advice: these types of open forums are not healthy for everyone.  It is kind of like doing martial arts: a great form of exercise, but not good for someone who is uncomfortable with having physical contact with others and occasionally getting punched.

There are folks who can have rip-roaring arguments with another person, but harbor no resentments afterwards.  It may be difficult for you to imagine, but in my culture and the cultures of many of the people I serve, arguing is not only expected, it is the norm.  If you are not willing to argue and even get verbally aggressive, they think you are cold or even arrogant.

Men also tend to tease one another when there is a high level of trust.  The military and sports teams are filled with this type of ribald behavior, which actually builds camaraderie.  Of course, our culture has become more politically correct and frowns on this natural behavior, though it is not sinful in itself.

Our problems begin when we begin to take these discussions away from our computers.  If this is happening for you, particularly if you are suffering when seeing two other people go at it, then you might consider taking a break from the forum until you can establish healthy boundaries.  Right now, your boundaries are such that these matters are causing you difficulties, and so this forum may not be suited to your personality as it is now.

Again, you are free to do what you like, but I think it is not good to be tormented by other people's discussions if you can avoid it.  Life is hard enough.

I won't play your silly games Peter. I'm all too well aware of your rhetorical gimmicks.

I disagree with Gebre on the issue of wearing a robe (obviously) and many other issues, but I support him and am very upset at the way he is being treated. I'm not a dramatic person, but I am a sensitive one.  Nothing upsets me more than kind people being treated like garbage. Honestly, this kind of treatment is all too common around here. I wish I could remain a member of this community, but I can't.  I'm tired of going to bed with an upset stomach.  Attack me, be sarcastic and mean spirited with me, I'll deal with it, but please, I beg of you, at the very least, leave the kind, decent people alone.  They don't deserve it. 

I'd like to nominate this for post of the month, not because of anything relevant/irrelevant to Ionnis, but because I think it's good advice for all of us.

Nomination duly documented...

[ozgeorge]

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

Which makes it statistically neither the mean nor the norm, hence, not "normal". 

[Ortho_cat]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

I don't think it's appropriate to criticize the faith of another person in this manner.

[Achronos]

The GOA Cathedral I went to had a few women with head coverings.

Which makes it statistically neither the mean nor the norm, hence, not "normal". 

My apologies, I thought you were singling out the Greek Church that they don't, but yes not the norm. Why is that exactly, in regards to GOA?

[Achronos]

So who would burn me first at the stake if I decided to wear this?



Or this:

[augustin717]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

[quietmorning]

There are a lot of people at my church that wear black t-shirts or black long sleeve t-shirts and black pants - either jeans or dockers to allow themselves to not have to concentrate on clothes. It seems to work very well for them.  I don't know if that fits what you are needing in your worship, but maybe it's a suggestion that might help.

I hate thinking about clothes. . . absolutely hate it.  If I could go to church in a sack, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Not because I'm lazy, but because it really is disconcerting what the latest 'fad' is, how people are judged by what they wear, etc.  Life is more than clothes - people are totally worth more than clothes.

I hope His mercy and wisdom shows you the way you should go - as this seems to be very important to you.  And if His will is that you wear a robe - that you would have the courage and fortitude to do so.  It's His will that's important. 

[podkarpatska]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

Or maybe this could be post of the month? :-)

I don't think it's appropriate to criticize the faith of another person in this manner.

Agreed.

[podkarpatska]

So who would burn me first at the stake if I decided to wear this?



Or this:

In any parish of my Diocese you would not be permitted to dress in such a manner unless you were at least a duly tonsured reader within any jurisdiction in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. You would not be 'burned at the stake' but you would need to be corrected by the pastor for what would clearly be an attempt by you to imply that you were somehow a reader, sub-deacon or member of the clergy. If you were to continue to dress in such a way, at some point the matter would properly be referred to the ruling Bishop. What exactly are you trying to prove?

[stashko]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

It is confusing with all robes walking  around, one reader or cantor had a cross as big as the Bishops around his neck...I confused him for clergy and kissed his hand ,, he corrected me ,and said he wasn't a priest..see the confustion it can create.....

[Achronos]

In any parish of my Diocese you would not be permitted to dress in such a manner unless you were at least a duly tonsured reader within any jurisdiction in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. You would not be 'burned at the stake' but you would need to be corrected by the pastor for what would clearly be an attempt by you to imply that you were somehow a reader, sub-deacon or member of the clergy. If you were to continue to dress in such a way, at some point the matter would properly be referred to the ruling Bishop. What exactly are you trying to prove?

I was actually joking.

There are a lot of people at my church that wear black t-shirts or black long sleeve t-shirts and black pants - either jeans or dockers to allow themselves to not have to concentrate on clothes. It seems to work very well for them.  I don't know if that fits what you are needing in your worship, but maybe it's a suggestion that might help.

I hate thinking about clothes. . . absolutely hate it.  If I could go to church in a sack, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Not because I'm lazy, but because it really is disconcerting what the latest 'fad' is, how people are judged by what they wear, etc.  Life is more than clothes - people are totally worth more than clothes.

I hope His mercy and wisdom shows you the way you should go - as this seems to be very important to you.  And if His will is that you wear a robe - that you would have the courage and fortitude to do so.  It's His will that's important. 

Agreed.

[minasoliman]

There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  ):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

[Punch]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

In the first Orthodox Church that I attended, the robe in the upper photo was called a Gibi and was worn by any adult serving behind the Iconostasis, tonsured or not.  One simply did not enter the holy place in street clothes.  In the Russian parish that I attended, only the monks and one reader wore a robe similar to the Gibi.  The reader was allowed to wear his because that is what he wore in the Greek Church as a reader.  The rest of us wore altar server vestments even if we were adults.  In my current Church, Serbian, the men wore street cloths behind the Iconostasis.  I am allowed to wear the Gibi because I was blessed to do so in one of my former Churches, and I explained to the Priest that my conscience is troubled by being in the presence of the altar in street clothes.  The Priest had no problem with this and blessed me to wear the Gibi.

So, I have seen many examples of laymen wearing some form of vestment when serving with the Priest.  I will say that I have only seen Readers and above wearing these robes when not serving.

[augustin717]

 I guess I'll have to somehow increase my level of tolerance for this. It's something that is just not done where I come from and it looks pretentious to me. We only had a sacristan that just wore street clothes.

[PeterTheAleut]

those are for priests or other clergymen, not for us, laymen; I even find disturbing the number of "tonsured readers" and other walking cassocks in some churches.

In my parish, even a tonsured reader is not permitted to wear his cassock unless he is actively serving as a reader.

[Marc1152]

If you want to wear a Reader Cassock than do the hard work required to become one.

[FatherGiryus]

Well, if you really want to go the extra mile, get a robe with a matching hat...

[Eugenio]

Ehhh, why wear something drab and brown when you could go all flashy!

Dressing as Star Wars Emperor Palpatine's Royal Guard would turn more heads at church.

[podkarpatska]

Ehhh, why wear something drab and brown when you could go all flashy!

Dressing as Star Wars Emperor Palpatine's Royal Guard would turn more heads at church.

All kidding aside, wearing a robe to any Church that I know of if you were not clergy or in some Greek Churches part of the choir, would turn pretty much all heads from the most kindly, pious person to the biggest hypocrite in the parish. After reading all of the serious and funny posts I think that is the answer to the original question. So, if you want to wear such a robe, be prepared for the reaction. I don't know you but I would be worried about someone who would want to draw such attention to him or herself by wearing such an outfit which I think would distract the rest of the faithful. Just my opinion.

[synLeszka]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

[Ortho_cat]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

[Marc1152]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

[Shlomlokh]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

These aren't the Orthodox you're looking for. Move along!

In Christ,
Andrew

[podkarpatska]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

[stashko]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

[podkarpatska]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

Just to clarify- I am not talking about the Church but Russian nationalism.

[stashko]

Okey Dokey !.....

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

We Serbs Love Our Russian Brothers and Sisters in the Faith a whole Lot.......Also All of our Orthodox Brothers and sisters worldwide......
Samo Sloga Pravoslavlje Spasava..... Zhivela Sveta Majka Pravoslavna Russija

Just to clarify- I am not talking about the Church but Russian nationalism.

[Ortho_cat]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

Wow, those guys are old school. They don't even have pews!

[vamrat]

There is one standard question to the nature of the value of something in the Orthodox church and it is as follows:
Was it like this in 19th century Russia? So furthermore, you can only wear what they wore in Russia.

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are not the only Orthodox and believe it or not, many of us 'other' Slavs don't like them historically any more than Poles like them.

No need to be sore losers.  My family tree (in the last century) has at least one Russian bullet in it and I don't feel the same vehemence for them as some people here.

On subject, I feel more uncomfortable in a Church w/o at least a few robes in it.

[deusveritasest]

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded? 

No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.

OMGosh you're not allowed to post gay couples on OCnet!!! 

[deusveritasest]

I have a meter that's very sensitive to hypocritical BS and dogmatism, which most who know me well can tell you.

No, you have a meter that is sensitive to anything patristic or traditional, and I have seen this over and over during the years that I have been on this forum.  What is sad is that you cannot see the difference.  You seem to derive great pleasure in tearing down other people’s arguments while providing little of any substance on your own.  Gebre is a person who proclaims what he believes.  I don’t always agree with him, but I believe that he genuinely believes what he proclaims.  For you to consider him hypocritical speaks very strongly about you, and what it says is not good.  For my part, I doubt that you believe anything at all.  Your only purpose in life seems to be to cause the rest of us to doubt what we believe.  In that regard, I don’t need you.  I have the Devil to do that already, making you rather redundant.

 

[deusveritasest]

That's a very good looking guy! 

[Asteriktos]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

[vamrat]

Putting 2 and 2 together, does this mean that the saints are spiritually deluded? 

No. The opposite. When I attain theosis, perhaps I'll dress like them too, but to do so while I'm still in spiritual delusion would simply be more spiritual delusion- somewhat like a Trekkie playing dress-up.

OMGosh you're not allowed to post gay couples on OCnet!!! 

I was thinking the same thing!  (Well, not about not posting gay couples, but was confused as to the gender of the fellow's significant other...)

[bogdan]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

He would let you:

[podkarpatska]

I think it would be cool if everyone wore the same uniform in Church.

img http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/StormtrooperCorps_anh1080p.jpg img

He would let you:

But the OP asked if he could wear the robe to Divine Liturgy - not Mass.   

[JLatimer]

There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  ):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

Well said.

[FatherGiryus]

Mina's father echoed the advice of Quentin Crisp.  The latter wrote what I think should be mandatory reading for all high school kids and college students:

http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Heaven-Divine-Guide-Behavior/dp/006015392X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Yes, the author was something of a 'gay icon,' but he actually offers a lot of very good, practical advice on being polite.  The book is not about how people should accept his lifestyle, but how he learned not to rub it in peoples' faces and tried his best to now allow his 'difference' to scandalize others more than necessary.

There's an Arabic proverb that my father taught me (for the reason of letting me put anything on my own omlette  ):  "Qol 3ala mazagaq wa ilbis 3ala mazag al nas," translated "eat what you like, dress up what people like."  Dress is all about what the community accepts.  In theory, no dress, as modest as they may be is wrong.  But even modesty at some level is a judgment call of the community you live in.  The lesson:  just don't try to act different.  Spirituality is not about the clothes you wear, but about the readiness of the heart.

Well said.

[deusveritasest]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

[PeterTheAleut]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

[deusveritasest]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.

[PeterTheAleut]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.

Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.

[deusveritasest]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.

Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.

Peter, the form I was trying to communicate with you in was not argumentative. I just asked a question.

[PeterTheAleut]

That's a very good looking guy!  

He's too thin... but I suppose that can be fixed  

Hmmmm. I like him that way.

deusveritasest, a known gay like you saying these things on such a Christian discussion forum as this only invites scrutiny of your motives and has great potential to scandalize the membership of this forum community. I therefore counsel you to be extremely careful how far you take this line of commentary.

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

And is it really all that awful that I am commenting on a guy being good looking? That shouldn't have any necessary connotation of sexual orientation. I am intentionally trying to make my post not sound lustful.

Look at the color of the text I used for my words of caution, DVE. I posted those in green text as a moderator, so I don't intend to broach any discussion here of what I wrote in that post. If you wish to continue to argue with me on this thread, you will receive a formal warning for arguing publicly with a moderatorial decision. You know better, so knock it off.

Peter, the form I was trying to communicate with you in was not argumentative. I just asked a question.

I will broach no more discussion on this thread regarding my actions. None whatsoever. If you wish to say ANYTHING more about this, even a single word, direct it to me in a private message.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay. 

[FatherGiryus]

Is it stupid because you are not a male homosexual, or is it stupid because the term 'gay' is not longer in vogue as a description of male homosexuality?

As I recall, 'gay' was an acceptable term.  But, it has been a few years since I last attended a university.   

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay. 

[deusveritasest]

Is it stupid because you are not a male homosexual, or is it stupid because the term 'gay' is not longer in vogue as a description of male homosexuality?

As I recall, 'gay' was an acceptable term.  But, it has been a few years since I last attended a university.   

Calling me a "gay" sounds really stupid.

You should have said it sounds really gay. 

I am indeed a male homosexual.

Actually, it has to do with the grammatical usage of the word. Using gay in that sense as an adjective can be OK. Using it as a noun, however, is what sounds stupid to me.

[stashko]

 Question....and....


My opinion is he won't join eastern or oriental Orthodoxy neither allows ,what he wants....All his knowledge about religion means nothing if he doesn't apply it...Christ does say the more one recieve the more he expects from that person ,so  ignorance  for him won't or can't be a excuse.....

I sometimes wonder, is it's better not to know alot about ones religion,than knowing everything and not putting it into practice and being held accountable before Christ.... In Holy Orthodoxy ,Can Ignorance save a person .....Example, The less one Knows the less he's accountable...
                                            The saying Ignorance is Bliss.......

[deusveritasest]

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko? 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko? 

Well, I don't think his question was unfair. I basically wonder the same thing.


Selam

[deusveritasest]

You actually thought that I would truly respond to your post, stashko? 

Well, I don't think his question was unfair. I basically wonder the same thing.


Selam

For one thing, it's stashko...

For another, his post was full of assuming and condescending claims regarding my person.

And finally, this site has proven itself totally unsafe for anyone (myself in particular) not ranting against homosexual behavior to discuss their opinions on the matter.