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Author Topic: Sacrament of Holy Orders Effects an Ontological Change  (Read 5551 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 10, 2011, 05:17:30 PM »

As a Catholic I subscribe to the following Orthodox understanding of the priesthood.  It is very Catholic in its description of Holy Orders. 

Also it seems to me that what most Orthodox speak of as defrocking is what the Catholic Church speaks of as laicization. 

However as the following description notes, Holy Orders establishes a relationship between the man and Christ that is ontological and I would imagine that those of this world cannot really touch that once it is done...so it seems to me from the article below.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/priesthood_symeon_thessalonica.htm

Quote

On the Priesthood

by St Symeon Archbishop of Thessalonica

What a Priest Is.

A priest, he says, has been deemed worthy to be a “minister” (διάκονος) of Christ and a “liturgist” (Λειτουργός), a “guardian” (παραστάτης) and a “beholder” (θεωρός) of the Mysteries, who draws near and communicates in them, and also a “preacher” (κήρυξ) of the Gospel. There are no veils any more interfering in this way, says St. Symeon, because a priest can behold the divine Light directly without any obstacle. He is no longer in need of a Seraph in order to receive the Mysteries, because he takes them with the tongs (λαβίς). Indeed, he himself is now the Seraph, by virtue of his consecration to the priesthood. He is the one that calls others to draw near to God, because he now holds in his hands the divine Mysteries and addresses the faithful, admonishing them to be attentive and offers them to Christ, and is actually the way and the guide of others towards the Light. Indeed, a priest is both a "Cherub," because he can see fully through the Mysteries the One, who sees all things, and a fire bearing "Seraph," because he holds the living Coal. Furthermore, a priest is a "throne," because through the Liturgy and the Communion, he has the One, who is present everywhere resting on himself; and he is also an angel, as God's servant and liturgist.

A priest is all the above, says St. Symeon, not in an imaginary way, but really and truly, because he does not serve the divine Mysteries "in a merely iconic or merely typical (symbolic) way," but truly serves the very Master, who is escorted in the heavens above by the immaterial powers. "Indeed, a priest does on earth what the immaterial powers do in heaven, because this is what the Designer of all was pleased with and wanted to establish, namely, that one and the same Liturgy should be observed both above and below."

Clearly, this description has two basic characteristics, both of which are tied to the Lord Jesus Christ. The first one is strictly connected with Christ's person, inasmuch as a priest belongs entirely to Christ through receiving his priestly identity from him, being constantly connected with him and having his reference always to him. The second characteristic is that a priest's service has a direct link and reference to Christ's work, which was accomplished for all creation, the realities above and the realities below. This close link of the priesthood with Christ's person and work is spelled out in the next paragraph, which explains how the priest's service truly reveals who Christ is and what he has done for the entire, created world in general and mankind in particular.

Christ's Work Extended Through the Priesthood.

The priest's service, says St. Symeon, reveals what Christ himself did for us when he appeared to the world as a man like us. This work can be described as follows:

Having procured his union with us, i.e. having willingly put on matter, Christ, who alone is immaterial, united himself with human beings, who are endowed with material senses. It is crucial here that He, who is by nature uncreated and without beginning, in his desire to be united with creation, was not united with the immaterial and creaturely nature of the angels — for angels were created out of nothing, immaterial and immortal by grace and participants of his Glory according to the measure of grace that was allotted to each of them. Rather, Christ put on our creaturely body and was united personally (ύποστατικώς) with us, without being separated from the Godhead and without being confused with the human nature, to which he transmitted the glories and benefits of the Godhead — "for in him," he says, "dwells the entire fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

Now, all this is related to the Priesthood, because just as Christ originally appeared to the world, according to his good pleasure, so now, he reveals himself through the sacred Mysteries (Sacraments) to the priests and through them to the world! Christ's amazing, divine work, which escapes the grasp of human reason, has been entrusted to the priest, who serves the Liturgy and initiates others to it. What a priest does is to reveal Christ again, i.e. to present him truly and fully to the world of his time through the sacred Mysteries, which he handles according to the divine ordinance. In other words, a priest represents Christ's perpetual and saving grace granted to the world through the celebration of Christ's mysteries.

Herein lies, according to St. Symeon, the great dignity of the priesthood, which is greater than that given to the angels. The Mysteries, which priests handle, have to do with the fact that the Master, who contains all things and is himself incomprehensible, becomes for us localized. Though he cannot be touched, human hands uphold him. Though he is invisible, he submits to the senses and become visible. Though he is inconceivable by the human mind, he is received by human beings through our humble and fallen nature, by means of the priesthood, which has been instituted by him. This is the miracle of miracles, that Christ appears through the Mysteries; that he is given, carried, communicated; that he indwells in us and brings us peace, expiation and sustenance.

This is, says St. Symeon, the most novel of all happenings, the greatest gift to humanity, the highest power, authority and grace. By this, the priests, who are human beings, made of soil and clay and resembling worms of the earth, appear as heavenly Authorities and Powers (Angels). Indeed, the power of the priesthood makes human beings greater than these heavenly hosts. Priests are partakers of a mightier creation through the administration of holy Baptism and the other Mysteries. They become fathers of sons of God, or fathers of those, who become gods by grace. They act in a way that cancels out the effects of sin and, thus, deliver the souls, unlock the gates of paradise, dissolve eternal bonds. Priests are empowered to perform divine acts, as God's collaborators for the salvation of human beings.

This being the case, it is obvious that priests have been granted the greatest charismas and gifts and, as such, are the greatest debtors to God. And it could not be otherwise, for they are compared to the heavenly Powers. These many-eyed orders of Angels behold God's glory all the time. They tremble and shudder at this sight, and yet, they are in greater awe when they observe the manifold Wisdom of God, which they come to know through the Church, as St. Paul says. These angelic orders are in awe, because of their creaturely nature and immeasurable goodness of God, but they are also amazed and fearful at the awesome, divine Mysteries performed by the priesthood.
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 06:41:27 PM »

Quote
Priests are partakers of a mightier creation through the administration of holy Baptism and the other Mysteries.
Partakers, not possessers.

They can partake only within the context of the Church. Outside that context, they have pulled the plug.
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 08:45:07 PM »

I think Irish Melkite wrote a post a few years ago that touched upon the different sacramental approaches of East (the Cyprianic theory) and West (the Augustinian theory):

Augustinian and Cyprianic Theories of Orders
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 09:14:18 PM »

I think Irish Melkite wrote a post a few years ago that touched upon the different sacramental approaches of East (the Cyprianic theory) and West (the Augustinian theory):

Augustinian and Cyprianic Theories of Orders

/\  One of the Irish Melkite's great posts.
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 09:15:21 PM »

Here is the voice of the great Catholic Church Father Basil the Great.  He speaks of the teaching that departure from the Church removes episcopate and priesthood.

See message 35 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25542.msg401044.html#msg401044


Epistle to Amphilochius (of which the "First Canon" of Saint Basil is a shorter
version)


"For those who separated first had ordination from the Fathers, and
through the imposition of their hands possessed the spiritual gift; but those
who had been cut off, becoming laymen, possessed the power neither of baptizing
nor of ordaining, being able no longer to impart to others the grace of the Holy
Spirit from which they themselves had fallen away. Therefore they commanded
those who had been baptized by them, as baptized by laymen, to come to the
Church and be purified by the true baptism of the Church.

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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 09:25:24 PM »

I think Irish Melkite wrote a post a few years ago that touched upon the different sacramental approaches of East (the Cyprianic theory) and West (the Augustinian theory):

Augustinian and Cyprianic Theories of Orders

/\  One of the Irish Melkite's great posts.

Agreed; it was a well-stated summary.
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 09:52:35 PM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.

Also, it's not as much of a problem as is presented. If a heretical church has enough faith to produce a valid Eucharist, more power to them. May they receive the Grace of God they need from it, and perhaps return to the Church.

An opinion could be formulated against the Cyprianic ordination theology that such an opinion is degrading to the mercy of God. That is, ecclesial separation that removes a person from the Graces in their Sacraments and are doomed completely unless they should change their mind. As may be said of Baptism, Confirmation, etc. "Sorry, God didn't recognize your Baptism, or your Confession."

It might be harder record keeping, but it's an opinion of divine mercy.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 10:49:06 PM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.

Also, it's not as much of a problem as is presented. If a heretical church has enough faith to produce a valid Eucharist, more power to them. May they receive the Grace of God they need from it, and perhaps return to the Church.

An opinion could be formulated against the Cyprianic ordination theology that such an opinion is degrading to the mercy of God. That is, ecclesial separation that removes a person from the Graces in their Sacraments and are doomed completely unless they should change their mind. As may be said of Baptism, Confirmation, etc. "Sorry, God didn't recognize your Baptism, or your Confession."

It might be harder record keeping, but it's an opinion of divine mercy.

Thoughts?
One can take the Eucharist to salvation or to damnation. St. Paul points that out in Corinthians.

An opinion could be formulated against the Augustinian ordination theology that such an opinion is degrading to the mercy of God. That is, ecclesial separation that provides a person the opportunity to commune unworthily in their Sacraments and are doomed completely unless they should change their mind. As may be said of Baptism, Confirmation, etc. "Sorry, God recognized your Baptism, and your Confession, and you profaned it with your heresy."
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 12:24:54 AM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 12:27:53 AM »

An opinion could be formulated against the Cyprianic ordination theology that such an opinion is degrading to the mercy of God. That is, ecclesial separation that removes a person from the Graces in their Sacraments and are doomed completely unless they should change their mind. As may be said of Baptism, Confirmation, etc. "Sorry, God didn't recognize your Baptism, or your Confession."

It might be harder record keeping, but it's an opinion of divine mercy.

Thoughts?
I do not agree.  Of course both theories have their strong points and their weaknesses, but I would not say that the Cyprianic theory degrades the mercy of God; instead, it simply connects the grace of the Holy Mysteries more closely to the Church than does the Augustinian theory.
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 01:09:18 AM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 09:50:16 AM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.

I'm not totally convinced, though I do enjoy the debate.

Donatists reflect the sinfulness, not the faith of the priest. And it's not full orthodoxy, but it does concern a certain matter of faith. If the priest does not believe in the real presence, the validity of apostolic succession, the grace in sacraments, etc. then it could be said he has rejected the grace in ordination. (I think of Pope Leo XIII's rejection of Anglican orders). This would be like someone going to confession, without belief in it's grace. If you don't believe God will forgive in confession, the he can't forgive.
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 10:13:09 AM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.

I'm not totally convinced, though I do enjoy the debate.

Donatists reflect the sinfulness, not the faith of the priest. And it's not full orthodoxy, but it does concern a certain matter of faith. If the priest does not believe in the real presence, the validity of apostolic succession, the grace in sacraments, etc. then it could be said he has rejected the grace in ordination. (I think of Pope Leo XIII's rejection of Anglican orders). This would be like someone going to confession, without belief in it's grace. If you don't believe God will forgive in confession, the he can't forgive.
Leo XIII declared Anglican orders invalid due to defect of form and intention (see Apostolicae Curae, nos. 12 and 20) surrounding the changes made to the ordination service in the Book of Common Prayer.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 10:18:36 AM »

This would be like someone going to confession, without belief in it's grace. If you don't believe God will forgive in confession, the he can't forgive.
Again, according to the Western teaching, it is not the faith of the individual, but his intention in receiving (or in the case of the minister his intention in bestowing) that determines the validity of the sacrament.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 11:05:43 AM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.
I have heard otherwise. For example, if a particular bishop departs from the Nicene Faith, such a person could no longer oradian priests.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 11:07:43 AM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 12:03:10 PM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.
I have heard otherwise. For example, if a particular bishop departs from the Nicene Faith, such a person could no longer oradian priests.
Irish Melkite has written about recent moves by the Catholic Church - at least in connection with sacred orders - toward a Cyrprianic stance that connects the sacrament more closely to the Church and her faith, but traditionally the orthodoxy of the minister (priest or bishop) does not impact the validity of a sacrament.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 12:04:39 PM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.
I have heard otherwise. For example, if a particular bishop departs from the Nicene Faith, such a person could no longer oradian priests.
Irish Melkite has written about recent moves by the Catholic Church - at least in connection with sacred orders - toward a Cyrprianic stance that connects the sacrament more closely to the Church and her faith, but traditionally the orthodoxy of the minster (priest or bishop) does not impact the validity of a sacrament.
I'm gonna take a look at the Summa on this matter.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 12:39:22 PM »

However, it's not quite as simple as laying on hands to pass the Sacrament.

Heresy can and does, in the Latin tradition, separate someone from the Grace bestowed in ordination. This can be seen in the determination of whether a church has "valid Apostolic Succession". A schismatic or heretical church can "disbelieve themselves" from their Sacramental abilities.
The orthodoxy, or lack thereof, of a minister does not effect the validity of a sacrament according to Western teaching.  The minister must have a proper intention - virtual or actual - to do what the Church does with the sacrament in order for it to be valid, and he must also use the proper matter and form for validity, or depending upon the case, licitness; but he does not have to possess the orthodox faith according to the Augustinian theory, and in fact to claim that that is the case is to confuse St. Augustine's teaching with the teaching of the Donatists he was working against.
I have heard otherwise. For example, if a particular bishop departs from the Nicene Faith, such a person could no longer oradian priests.
Irish Melkite has written about recent moves by the Catholic Church - at least in connection with sacred orders - toward a Cyrprianic stance that connects the sacrament more closely to the Church and her faith, but traditionally the orthodoxy of the minster (priest or bishop) does not impact the validity of a sacrament.
I'm gonna take a look at the Summa on this matter.
You may also want to consult Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" and Halligan's "The Administration of the Sacraments" for a traditional Roman Catholic presentation of the issue of sacramental validity.

In connection with my comment about Irish Melkite there is a recent thread at the Byzantine Forum in which he posted and mentioned the movement of the Roman Church toward a more Cyprianic position (see the thread entitled:  "XXIII General Synod of the Polish National Catholic Church").
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 01:07:00 PM »

This?

Quote from: Irish Melkite
Ned.

The validity of PNCC orders was unequivocally accepted by Rome in response to a request by the USCCB that it rule on same.

The PNCC is one of what Canon Law describes as "other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches" (i.e., not in communion with Rome, but possessed of Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments)

I can't remember just now when the ruling was made as to the validity of PNCC orders, but it definitely predated the 2000 episode cited above and the categorization of that event by the RCC as a "mistake and misunderstanding" reflects Rome's embarressment that it ever happened.

Rome has been more than aware of vagante ecclesia with technical bases on which to assert Apostolic Succession for well over a century. However, in the very recent past, it seems to have finally decided that stepping back from the Augustinian Theory might be a better route to take. That said, I doubt very much that reordination would be conferred on any presbyter from a mainstream, albeit non-canonical, Orthodox Church who was entering communion.

Many years,

Neil
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/357770/Re:%20XXIII%20General%20Synod%20of%20the#Post357770
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 02:02:53 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 02:02:53 PM »

This?

Quote from: Irish Melkite
Ned.

The validity of PNCC orders was unequivocally accepted by Rome in response to a request by the USCCB that it rule on same.

The PNCC is one of what Canon Law describes as "other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches" (i.e., not in communion with Rome, but possessed of Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments)

I can't remember just now when the ruling was made as to the validity of PNCC orders, but it definitely predated the 2000 episode cited above and the categorization of that event by the RCC as a "mistake and misunderstanding" reflects Rome's embarressment that it ever happened.

Rome has been more than aware of vagante ecclesia with technical bases on which to assert Apostolic Succession for well over a century. However, in the very recent past, it seems to have finally decided that stepping back from the Augustinian Theory might be a better route to take. That said, I doubt very much that reordination would be conferred on any presbyter from a mainstream, albeit non-canonical, Orthodox Church who was entering communion.

Many years,

Neil
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/357770/Re:%20XXIII%20General%20Synod%20of%20the#Post357770

What does any of this have to do with the question of whether or not there is an ontological change in the man when he validly receives the grace of Holy Orders?

Mary
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 02:10:38 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.
Besides, the rolls were probably leavened.  Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 03:00:16 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.
Besides, the rolls were probably leavened.  Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy Well stated.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2011, 09:17:18 PM »


Leo XIII declared Anglican orders invalid due to defect of form and intention (see Apostolicae Curae, nos. 12 and 20) surrounding the changes made to the ordination service in the Book of Common Prayer.


Here is something from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's eminent theologians prior to the Revolution, Metropolitan of Kiev, and later, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

 "Why Anglican Clergy Could Be Received in Their Orders"
 http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html

 The conclusion:

"Thus the adoption of one or the other mode of reception for those of
 other confessions who enter the Church (that is, heretics or
 schismatics) depends on ecclesiastical economy, on the judgment of the
 local bishops and the Councils, and on the existence of the outward
 form of the sacraments of baptism, chrismation and orders in the
 communities from which the applicants come."

"Therefore, in our opinion, Anglicans may be admitted by the third
 rite, especially in view of the sincere and humble aspiration of many
 of them to be united to our holy Church."

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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2011, 09:20:11 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.

It's not absurd. Ask a canonist. 
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2011, 09:23:15 PM »


Leo XIII declared Anglican orders invalid due to defect of form and intention (see Apostolicae Curae, nos. 12 and 20) surrounding the changes made to the ordination service in the Book of Common Prayer.


Here is something from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's eminent theologians prior to the Revolution, Metropolitan of Kiev, and later, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

 "Why Anglican Clergy Could Be Received in Their Orders"
 http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html

 The conclusion:

"Thus the adoption of one or the other mode of reception for those of
 other confessions who enter the Church (that is, heretics or
 schismatics) depends on ecclesiastical economy, on the judgment of the
 local bishops and the Councils, and on the existence of the outward
 form of the sacraments of baptism, chrismation and orders in the
 communities from which the applicants come."

"Therefore, in our opinion, Anglicans may be admitted by the third
 rite, especially in view of the sincere and humble aspiration of many
 of them to be united to our holy Church."


Whereas this may have been true in his day, and certainly was in Pope Leo XIII's day, but sadly is not such any longer.
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2011, 10:20:59 PM »

I found the article at the link below interesting:

Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity:
Some Theological and Canonical Considerations


Any thoughts?
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2011, 10:21:39 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2011, 11:43:33 PM »

I found the article at the link below interesting:

Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity:
Some Theological and Canonical Considerations


Any thoughts?
Quote
The Christological and the Pneumatological aspect of priesthood are present in a harmonious compound. They are inseparably blended together in a unique synthesis. The Christian priesthood involves the participation in Christ's own priestly mission. It is precisely the personal descent of the Holy Spirit upon the newly-ordained that which guaranties this participation. This means that the ordained person through the Holy Spirit is directly connected with the priesthood of Christ. The theandric principium of the priestly grace is pneumatologically present in the concrete ordained person. Through the epiclesis and the coming of the Holy Spirit in the ordination, the priesthood itself of Christ is offered to the newly ordained and remains alive and effectual within the ecclesial body. Thus the Holy Spirit, which was from the beginning with the Son, creating the cosmos, leading and inspiring the prophets, incarnating the eternal Logos of God in man, being always with Christ, raising Him from the dead and constituting the Apostolic Church,4 realizes Christ's own priesthood within the historic life of the Church. In other words, the Holy Spirit remains as the vital link between Christ's priesthood and the Christian priesthood. In considering priesthood in relation to Pneumatology, we are obliged to make special reference to the Pentecostal economy. It is well-known that for the Church, Pentecost is not simply a historic event, but rather a continuous and dynamic presence, an always going on vital and flowing life. The late Fr. George Florovsky makes the observation that "Pentecost becomes eternal in the Apostolic Succession, that is in the uninterruptibility of hierarchial ordinations in which every part of the Church is at every moment organically united with the primary source."5 Thus, through the ordained ministry, the entire ecclesial body is related to the divine economy. Priesthood becomes an instrument for the realization of the ecclesial communion, which is offered at every historic moment as a continuous pentecostal life. In this perspective, what we call "Apostolic Succession" does not represent a narrow canonical principle, nor an external continuation, but rather indicates and signifies the presence of the Holy Spirit, that unique gift which restrains the entire Church into the continuity of the charismatic life.

The Trinitarian foundation of priestly order reveals and emphasizes not only the divine origin of the Christian priesthood, but equally its communal character...

The priestly diakonia, as a sacramental consecration, is not an abstract and mysterious appointment, but a concrete ministry deeply bound to the very being of the ecclesial communion....The sixth canon of the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon is absolutely clear: "No one should be ordained without a concrete appointment. Neither presbyter, nor deacon nor any other in the ecclesiastical rank. The ordained must be designated to serve in a concrete ecclesial community of a city or of a village or of a martyr's sanctuary or of a monastery. The Holy Council has ordered that an ordination without a concrete appointment should be void and the person ordained should not have the right to serve anywhere. This punishment should be understood also as a disapproval of the bishop who ordained him."

The same is true of the bishops. The assignment for. a particular episcopal ministry is the sine qua non condition for his ordination. Both bishop, priest and deacon should be related with a concrete diocese, or congregation. This spiritual relation is a kind of matrimonial connection. Thus, any one of the clerics is dedicated to serve the flock which was assigned specifically for him. In order to guarantee this unique communion between the ordained and his faithful the First Ecumenical Council in its fifteenth rule declared a direct prohibition for all clergy to move from one place to another. Neither a bishop, nor a priest nor a deacon has the right to leave his place and go elsewhere.

The canonical tradition of the Eastern Christendom and the patristic treatises are full of evidences and indications that all ordinations are inseparably connected with a given community, and through this concrete community with the catholic ecclesial body....

The same is applicable for the ordination of a priest. Through his ordination the new presbyter is again existentially related, in a unique and specific way, to the entire Body of the Church, thus becoming himself an instrument for the edification of the ecclesial unity. This means that the ordination of a presbyter is not an isolated sacramental action, in itself and for itself, but a sacramental and spiritual event related to the concrete community and through it to the life of the whole Church...

The implications of this perspective are of paramount importance for both a theology of priesthood and an understanding of its role for the ecclesial unity. The first point we have to firmly stress once more is that priesthood cannot exist as such apart from the community....

The doctrine of the "indelible mark" attained at ordination to the priesthood seems to have originated in the Scholastic period of the Western Church. This same conception was at times borrowed by Eastern theologians thereafter. The teaching purports the grace of ordination as an indelible irrevocable mark upon the soul of the ordained individual that sets him apart for priestly service analogous to the Levite rank and the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek in the Old Testament. It is interesting to mention here that the sixth Ecumenical Council in its 33rd canon condemns the practice of Armenian Christians who had embraced the Old Testament custom concerning the Levitic rank and did not accept for the priesthood anyone who was not of this so called "priestly lineage". The reasoning for the adoption of the Old Testament typology in both cases seems to be that an identification mark is a constitutive element of priesthood. In the later case it is conceived as an inherited trait, while in the former which concerns us here, it is viewed as irrevocably and individually attained at the ordination rite.

The logical conclusion of the "indelible mark" is that the ordained individual possesses forever this peculiar mark of priesthood which can never be removed by anyone nor can it be surrendered in any circumstance. It is evident that such a doctrinal consideration absolutizes and isolates priesthood from the event itself of the ecclesial communion. Priesthood here is distortingly objectified and over-estimated assuming a totalitarian magnitude. It is imposed over the Church which is unable to deprive the ordained. individual of its characteristic mark, even if he is unworthy to maintain the ecclesial grace. In fact this doctrine concerning the indelible mark divorces the priesthood from its organic context of the ecclesial life. Thus the ordained person possess a self sufficient power which is higher than the Church itself And the Church is not able to take back the indelible mark from an individual even if he is defrocked and excommunicated....

It should be mentioned in this connection that as far as we know, no evidence concerning the indelible mark theory can be found in Patristic teaching. On the contrary, the canonical data leave no doubt that a defrocked priest or bishop, after the decision of the Church to take back his priesthood, returns to the rank of the laity. The anathematized or the defrocked are in no way considered to maintain their priesthood. The canonical tradition that in the case of his ministerial rehabilitation this person is not re-ordained does not imply a recognition that he was a priest during the period of his punishment.20 It simply means that the Church recognizes that which had been sacramentally performed and the grace of ecclesiastical ministry is restored upon his assignment to an ecclesial community with no other sacramental sign or rite.

9. In the light of what has been said thus far, we may conclude saying that priesthood in no way is a ministry introducing division or classification within the ecclesial body. Between a priest and a lay person there is no legal distinction but precisely what we may call charismatic distribution. As we read in I Corinthians (12:4-6): "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministry but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all". This means that through ordination a member of the Church is set apart in order to minister the sacrament of ecclesial unity. In the Patristic tradition, priesthood is never understood as an of five based on an objectified mark imprinted on the soul of the ordained person, but rather as an ecclesial gift, as a vocation aiming to edify the Body of Christ. It has been rightly said that an Orthodox understanding of priesthood is beyond any "ontological" or "functional" definition.21 Priesthood cannot be considered in itself and for itself, but rather as relational reality. In other words, the only way to have an adequate understanding of the priestly charisma is to see it in its anaphoral dimension and in connection to the ecclesial communion.
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2011, 01:15:59 AM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.

It's not absurd. Ask a canonist. 

Father,

Protestants and Orthodox have been using this "example" for so long that I no longer need to "check" anything with anyone.  It is neither proper matter, nor proper intent.

So you'll have to sell that bridge to the unsuspecting.
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2011, 01:15:59 AM »

I found the article at the link below interesting:

Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity:
Some Theological and Canonical Considerations


Any thoughts?

Yes.  The article you recommend here is a bit at odds with the Orthodox source that I cited at the beginning of this thread.

In the article that I cited the sacrament of Holy Orders has two points of sacramental contact for the ordinand.  The first and primary contact is with Jesus, with whom there is forged a particular relationship.  The second is of course, the Church.  The powers of the priesthood flow sacramentally through both sources...the Second Person of the Trinity, and the Body of Christ...the Church.

The second article is more in line with Catholic teaching than the one that you offered here.  That is not to say that the one you offered is wrong...but rather somewhat incomplete.

M.
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2011, 12:50:03 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.

It's not absurd. Ask a canonist.  

Father,

Protestants and Orthodox have been using this "example" for so long that I no longer need to "check" anything with anyone.  It is neither proper matter, nor proper intent.

So you'll have to sell that bridge to the unsuspecting.
I would add to this that if a priest leaves the Church and falls into a grave enough heresy, then he can't possibly have proper intent anymore and would not be able to consecrate the bread and wine.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 12:50:37 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2011, 01:16:01 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.

It's not absurd. Ask a canonist. 

Father,

Protestants and Orthodox have been using this "example" for so long that I no longer need to "check" anything with anyone.  It is neither proper matter, nor proper intent.
Well, there, rather dependent on the worthiness of the minister, aren't you?
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 01:23:11 PM »

I found the article at the link below interesting:

Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity:
Some Theological and Canonical Considerations


Any thoughts?

Yes.  The article you recommend here is a bit at odds with the Orthodox source that I cited at the beginning of this thread.

what bit are you talking about exactly?

Quote
In the article that I cited the sacrament of Holy Orders has two points of sacramental contact for the ordinand.  The first and primary contact is with Jesus, with whom there is forged a particular relationship.  The second is of course, the Church.  The powers of the priesthood flow sacramentally through both sources...the Second Person of the Trinity, and the Body of Christ...the Church.

Neither working without the other

Quote
The second article is more in line with Catholic teaching than the one that you offered here.  That is not to say that the one you offered is wrong...but rather somewhat incomplete.

Yeah, like Orthodox ecclesiology without the "supreme pontiff." LOL. Don't dilute our pure wine with your kool aid.
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2011, 01:39:30 PM »



Grin
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 02:06:47 PM »

Oh, Nooo!^
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2011, 02:10:48 PM »

Oh, Nooo!^


HAHAHA
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 07:28:33 PM »

Time for an anecdote.........  Decades ago I received into Orthodoxy a very venerable man who was a Theosophist/Liberal Catholic priest.  By Rome's criteria he had valid priestly orders.  It was his custom to consecrate the bread rolls and carafes of wine in restaurants and leave them to be consumed by waiters and kitchen staff, or simply tossed in the rubbish bin.   Those of you who know Liberal Catholicism will know that their priests believe in spreading divine grace through the universe as much as possible.

I could laugh at his doings (it was just bread and wine to me) but Catholic priests were horrified since in their eyes a valid consecration had taken place and the Eucharist was being horribly degraded.

This highlights the perversity of the "magical" RC pipeline theory of apostolic succession.  It can end up in anyone's hands.  And it seems the Lord can be compelled, as if my magic, to respond to the summons of anyone no matter how outlandish and degrading the situation is for Him.
I doubt even the stictest Scholastic would see those consecrations as valid. When a priest minsters the sacraments, he must intend to do what the Church does, otherwise it is not a true sacrament. His consecration of bread rolls at a restaurant would not be seen as the Eucharist by the Catholic Church.

That's right.  The anecdote is an absurdity by definition.

It's not absurd. Ask a canonist. 

Father,

Protestants and Orthodox have been using this "example" for so long that I no longer need to "check" anything with anyone.  It is neither proper matter, nor proper intent.
Well, there, rather dependent on the worthiness of the minister, aren't you?

No Professor....

Intending what the Church intends is not at all the same as depending upon the personal worthiness of the priest.

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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2011, 09:05:00 PM »

No Professor....

Intending what the Church intends is not at all the same as depending upon the personal worthiness of the priest.
The personal worthiness or faith of the minister - according to traditional Western teaching - does not impact the validity of the sacrament, nor is the minister required to have an intention that matches the specific intention of the Church, for as Dr. Ott explains:  "Objectively considered, the intention of doing what the Church does suffices.  The minister, therefore, does not need to intend what the Church intends, namely, to produce the effects of the sacraments, for example, the forgiveness of sins; neither does he need to intend to execute a specific Catholic rite.  It suffices if he have the intention of performing the religious action as it is current among Christians" (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine, page 344; see also Summa Theologica, Tertia Pars, Q. 64, A. 9 and A. 10).
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2011, 09:10:03 PM »

I would add to this that if a priest leaves the Church and falls into a grave enough heresy, then he can't possibly have proper intent anymore and would not be able to consecrate the bread and wine.
I agree that some recent (i.e., within the past ten years or so) actions of the Roman Church show that it is moving in that direction (e.g., the CDF rejection of Mormon baptism), but this shift in a more Cyprianic direction is recent, and would probably have been rejected prior to Vatican II.
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2011, 09:13:03 PM »

Faith =/= sinless. It's not personal worthiness, no miracles or sacraments are capable without faith.


(what if  Wink)
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2011, 09:16:10 PM »

Faith =/= sinless. It's not personal worthiness, no miracles or sacraments are capable without faith.


(what if  Wink)
The faith of the minister has no impact on sacramental validity in the traditional Scholastic approach, but that does not mean that faith - on the part of the Church - is absent.
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2011, 09:25:08 PM »

Faith =/= sinless. It's not personal worthiness, no miracles or sacraments are capable without faith.


(what if  Wink)
The faith of the minister has no impact on sacramental validity in the traditional Scholastic approach, but that does not mean that faith - on the part of the Church - is absent.

Your throwing around Traditional Scholastic approach both without reference to the "scholasticism", as if it's the only thing that can support the understanding, and with enough sneer to confuse a snake or Harry Potter.


I am saying that faith of either the priest or the congregation is necessary for the Sacramental miracle, and without it, the given grace of ordination is invalidated like a baptized sinner.
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2011, 09:27:38 PM »

Faith =/= sinless. It's not personal worthiness, no miracles or sacraments are capable without faith.


(what if  Wink)
The faith of the minister has no impact on sacramental validity in the traditional Scholastic approach, but that does not mean that faith - on the part of the Church - is absent.

Your throwing around Traditional Scholastic approach both without reference to the "scholasticism", as if it's the only thing that can support the understanding, and with enough sneer to confuse a snake or Harry Potter.


I am saying that faith of either the priest or the congregation is necessary for the Sacramental miracle, and without it, the given grace of ordination is invalidated like a baptized sinner.
I am not doubting that you believe that the faith of the minister and congregation are necessary for "the sacramental miracle" to occur; instead, I am simply pointing out that the West has not traditionally accepted that notion.
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