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Author Topic: Jerusalem Patriarchate: No Ecumenical Events  (Read 6219 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 10, 2011, 01:50:14 PM »

The story:
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=3D8840

The headline:
'Jerusalem's Christian groups join for ecumenical prayers'

The story (CAPS added):
'Jerusalem will be later than elsewhere in the world, so as not to
conflict with the liturgical calendar of the Armenian Orthodox Church,
which marks the feast of Epiphany according to the old Julian
calendar.

'The Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Lutheran, Syrian Orthodox, Ethiopian
Orthodox, and Anglican communities of Jerusalem will host ecumenical
prayer services. THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH DOES NOT HOST ECUMENICAL
EVENTS, but representatives of the other churches will attend a prayer
service with the Greek Orthodox monks at the basilica of the Holy
Sepulchre.'
 
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 01:53:13 PM »

Good for them. Now, if only they would have more "dialogue" with their own flock.
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 11:18:18 PM »

Father Bless, I'm dense, I know, but what do they mean by "other churches will attend a prayer
service with the Greek Orthodox monks at the basilica"? Would that be a participating service with the other churches, or a service hosted by the Greek monks, while the others observe? Or, I guess the real question is, who are these other groups?
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 07:12:41 AM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 11:47:32 AM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 11:51:07 AM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 11:53:50 AM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 12:00:02 PM »

I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins"...

...is based on councils which both RCs and EOs deem as ecumenical.
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 12:01:10 PM »

I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins"...

...is based on councils which both RCs and EOs deem as ecumenical.
And yet we all grow.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 12:09:13 PM »

I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins"...

...is based on councils which both RCs and EOs deem as ecumenical.
And yet we all grow.

Yes, we do. But it is still a little hypocritical to complain about EOs' actions when they are based on our common tradition. This is as embarassing as some EOs' complaints about Mary-worshipping Catholics.

RCs are just as arrogant as EOs. If you disagree with EOs' arrogance, you are in a wrong church.

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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 12:24:09 PM »

I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins"...

...is based on councils which both RCs and EOs deem as ecumenical.
And yet we all grow.

So do tares and weeds.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 12:38:56 PM »

Not all of us share the views of those who condemn the attempts of some of us to better understand each other or who seem to triumphantly boast and take pleasure from those who act in such ways. It does go both ways indeed. Really, the behavior of ALL parties involved in the Holy Sepulcher disputes gives comfort to those who truly hate or mock Christ and His peoples.  "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:3, KJV.
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 01:38:21 PM »

Not all of us share the views of those who condemn the attempts of some of us to better understand each other or who seem to triumphantly boast and take pleasure from those who act in such ways.

Refusing to pray with non-Orthodox doesn't mean refusing to understand non-Orthodox. Even though I for one don't feel comfortable with common prayer there's still a special place in my heart for Roman Catholism and her traditions and I'm first to defend her if she's unfairly mocked. The Schism between us is one of the greatest tragedies of mankind. I wish and pray that one day I'm able to receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord in St. Peter's Basilica from pope of Old Rome.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 01:53:15 PM »

I can't read the link. Can someone help?
All I get is:

Error! You have tried to view a news item using a record ID that is not purely numeric.
The link which refers to this story is likely incorrect. If the link was located on this site, please Contact Us. If not please notify the webmaster of the site containing the link
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 04:54:06 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 04:57:03 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 05:05:00 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 05:05:51 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 05:06:37 PM »

The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

As sort of a side issue, but perhaps still relevant, do Catholics "do away" with older canons, as Orthodox sometimes claim? Or do they combine/edit them as times change to keep them relevant? Or do they do as the Orthodox do and keep them, even when no one follows them anymore (and perhaps never did)? Also, there's the idea in Orthodoxy--in theory, if not always followed in practice by the laity--that canons are the domain of bishops, that it's bishops who decide how to apply the canons, whether strictly or less strictly. Is there a similar idea in Catholicism? (I've heard of dispensations, but I'm not sure that that is exactly what I'm asking about. Or is it?)
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 05:07:35 PM »

The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

As sort of a side issue, but perhaps still relevant, do Catholics "do away" with older canons, as Orthodox sometimes claim? Or do they synthesise them as times change to keep them relevant? Or do they do as the Orthodox do and keep them, even when no one follows them anymore (and perhaps never did)? Also, there's the idea in Orthodoxy--in theory, if not always followed in practice by the laity--that canons are the domain of bishops, that it's bishops who decide how to apply the canons, whether strictly or less strictly. Is there a similar idea in Catholicism?
That's a good question and I think that Fr. Kimel would probably have a really good answer to this question. Fr. Kimel, you out there?
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 05:08:25 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

There's a difference between not being legalistic, and being opportunist. The RCC not only prays with non-Catholics, but allows its own members to deny its teachings and mangle its traditions without repercussions.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

There's a difference between not being legalistic, and being opportunist. The RCC not only prays with non-Catholics, but allows its own members to deny its teachings and mangle its traditions without repercussions.
Nope
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 05:12:21 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

There's a difference between not being legalistic, and being opportunist. The RCC not only prays with non-Catholics, but allows its own members to deny its teachings and mangle its traditions without repercussions.
Nope

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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 05:12:34 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
Nope, but it does two things...
1. gives the wrong impression to seekers of truth, looking for authentic Christianity.
2. influences soft believers into hunting and picking what they like and don't like about their faith.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2011, 05:14:17 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
Nope, but it does two things...
1. gives the wrong impression to seekers of truth, looking for authentic Christianity.
2. influences soft believers into hunting and picking what they like and don't like about their faith.
1. Yeah, you wouldn't want anyone to get the false idea that Christians love one another.  Roll Eyes
2. Such people aren't truely following Christ in the first place.
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2011, 05:17:44 PM »

1. Yeah, you wouldn't want anyone to get the false idea that Christians love one another.  Roll Eyes
2. Such people aren't truely following Christ in the first place.
1. Expression of love is not synonymous with communal prayer.
2. So instead of giving them a steady foundation and leading them to the truth, confuse them more and let em burn*??

*using RC dogmatics
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2011, 09:27:01 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"

Itr's not at all like you imagine.  Starting from the Apostolic Canons, there are quite a number of canons  forbidding prayers with the heterodox ands requiring grave consequences - deposition for clergy and excommunication for laymen.  These canons are not seen as dead letters in the Orthodox world.  They are not observed by some bishops from time to time at ecumenical gatherings but the knowledge of them is very much alive in the Church.
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2011, 09:35:22 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?

Let's remember that in his epistle the Apostle of Love, Saint John the Evangelist, forbade Christians to allow in their house Christians with a false teaching.  In fact he forbids us to even say "Good day" to them.  Are you now "turned off" by Saint John?  Are you now judging him by his fruit?

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.  Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." 2 John 10
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2011, 09:38:07 PM »

I can't read the link. Can someone help?
All I get is:

Error! You have tried to view a news item using a record ID that is not purely numeric.
The link which refers to this story is likely incorrect. If the link was located on this site, please Contact Us. If not please notify the webmaster of the site containing the link

It worked for me when I tried it 30 seconds ago.
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2011, 09:46:09 PM »

I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?

But aren't such words and actions, which offend our modern sensibilities, quite common throughout Church history? Take, for example, the story told of St. John the Apostle, who, upon seeing a heretic in a public place, said: "Let us flee, lest the building fall down; for Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is inside!" Now can you imagine a bishop saying that today? Wouldn't even the more traditional and faithful say something like: "Well, that's going a bit far, can't this person be a bit more civil? Is it really necessary to be so rude?" and so forth. Also, it used to be quite common among the Fathers to attribute demonic influence or ulterior motives to your theological opponents... but hopefully (?) no one has said to you on this forum something like: "Papist, you fool! Your latin perversions are the inspiration of Satan!" and so on. I agree that Orthodox polemics/rhetoric can get out of hand... but hey... I think to some extent that comes with the territory.
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2011, 10:19:06 PM »

Whether or not one prays for someone is an indication of whether or not you love them, not whether or not you pray with them.
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2011, 10:23:42 PM »

I think that this is a good thing and I support their consistency. That being said, I do pray with my wife who is a Protestant and with my family members who are of various Protestant stripes and those who are Roman Catholic. Usually it's just practical, like if they ask me to pray before a meal. I do not explain that the Holy Canons forbid such things, etc. as I would be totally misunderstood and people would think I had gone insane. Basically I just go with my priest's advice on this which is economic grace in such situations.
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2011, 10:24:48 PM »

There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

With all due respect, your statements are problematic, and when we examine the problems, we can understand the Jerusalem Patriarch's position.

I often find such quizzical statements from well-meaning Catholic friends and pastors, that have the premise that Catholic and Orthodox are the same, and that therefore when Catholic Church makes an advance, then I must naturally of course be completely pleased with it.

Like today, a Catholic friend told me about how we are going to be one church. Well, of course, I am happy about that. It is my hope too. Then she mentioned about how the Pope was in England recently and gave a blessing to everyone. Well, that sounds nice. I asked her what she meant was special about it. And she said that it was a blessing for the English who had left the church of England to rejoin the Catholic church.

Now based on the premise that Catholics and Orthodox are really the same church, there would be an assumption that therefore I must be very happy to see Anglicans go back under the Pope of Rome. For me, well, it's nice, since the Pope was their Patriarch originally, but neither church is in full communion with us, so the presumption and the statement seem quizzical to me.

Now let me give a similar example with the issue of praying together: At a Catholic chapel service I visited last year the speaker announced a prayer that all former Catholics would return to the Catholic fold. The sense was in a benevolent way.

And yet how am I as an Orthodox supposed to feel about such a statement? I can't agree, because many Catholics have become Orthodox. I wish to participate in the service, and yet when the service is viewed as one whole that also includes parts, it can turn out that some parts are against my church.

So do I put my soul into the service and feel a complete spiritual bonding with the whole service?
The speaker in the service might like it, and you might be ok with it, and the sense of the service would be such. But it's not possible since completely putting my soul into the whole service would go against my church. I don't think an Orthodox can do this as an Orthodox.

Or should I try to keep my vigilance and watch up for such prayers that contradict my church, which I wouldn't pray?
This would be your answer I expect. It is the answer of ecumenists, of traditional Protestants, of Catholics. It's my answer, and it's the answer of many if not most Orthodox, including the Ecumenical Patriarch.

And when you really think about it, the News Announcement tends favorably in this direction, because while it says there isn't ecumenism in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, it still describes a somewhat ecumenical event, with Christians praying together and/or being together, as here, for example, I expect the nonOrthodox will pray at the Orthodox service.

But still, a church service that one puts one's soul into shouldn't have such a need for vigilance. And even normal services with Catholics could require such vigilance, because there are at least a few places in the service we may differ over.

Or should I just show up without participating or not show up at all?

This is the view apparently of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. It is a conservative jurisdiction, which was in communion with the pro-Tsarist Old Calendar ROCOR at a time few other canonical Orthodox churches were. It still uses the Old Julian Calendar.

And as some on the board pointed out here, it apparently was following a church tradition that it had shared with the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages.


We should view the Jerusalem Patriarchate's shyness toward ecumenical prayer with understanding and sympathy, even if we might take a more ecumenical approach, since a full ecumenical approach also has its difficulties and problems especially regarding the RC church.

Ecumenism with the RC church is in one way the most dangerous, even if we are the closest of any Christian groups. The reason is that the RC church considers its leader to be the Supreme Ruler (Pontifex Maximus), for whom all the leaders of all other Churches would be merely subjects who fully submit to his commands and positions on faith.

The danger is that when Christians view themselves as simply one and act togather, then the danger is that the idea can spread, perhaps by implication, about the Supreme Ruler's position as regards other Christians. And after all, the RC Church is the biggest of any denomination. So the Supreme Ruler's ideas and commands can seem to somehow carry more weight in discussions than other Churches'.

So I look forward to and hope for a future reunification, while meanwhile having dialogue and fraternity with Catholics. But from the one purely practical point of view regarding the Supreme Ruler's position, it is easier to have ecumenism with, say, Bahais than with the RC church.

So there is a hope and a benefit, but also a risk and a problem.

Regards.

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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2011, 10:29:44 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.
How's purgatory doing?
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2011, 10:37:03 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
Nope, but it does two things...
1. gives the wrong impression to seekers of truth, looking for authentic Christianity.
2. influences soft believers into hunting and picking what they like and don't like about their faith.
1. Yeah, you wouldn't want anyone to get the false idea that Christians love one another.  Roll Eyes
2. Such people aren't truely following Christ in the first place.

1. Christians do.  They just don't like praying with heretics.
2. Just like heretics.

On thing that I have observed in my life is that what is impure does not become pure by mingling with the pure.  But the pure becomes fouled when mingled with the impure.  It is my firm belief that Ecumenism, in the form being discussed here, is not being done to purify, but is a diabolical act performed to foul what is pure.  Perhaps that is why the RC is in such a hurry to pray with anything that moves, while the Orthodox try to keep their distance?  And, as Irish Hermit wrote, it is not a matter of the Orthodox considering ourselves "better" than the heretics and heterodox.  It is a matter that we believe that what was handed down to us in the canons is beneficial for our Salvation, and violating that guidance is not beneficial for our Salvation.  It tends to make some of use suspicious when, like the snake in Eden, groups of people keep trying to get us to violate those canons, particularly by using snake like logic such as "if you don't pray with us, you don't love us", or "those canons really don't mean anything today", or other such trickery.  Believe me, if the canons said "pray with the heretics because they may learn from your prayers", I would be attending Mass nearly every evening, at least those evening that I was not worshiping with by Lutheran friends.  I love being in Church, and I have both Lutheran and RC Churches very close to where I live, and the RC have services almost daily.  I don't stay out of these Churches because I hate the people in them, I stay out of them because the Fathers thought enough of this to attach severe penalties for violating these canons, again as Irish Hermit has already pointed out.  I am not happy about it, but most medicine is bitter.

In addition, I have been told that there is a difference between private prayer and corporate prayer.  If I pray with my Lutheran father and mother in the privacy of our home (which I have been given permission to do), I am not making any public statement of unity.  An Orthodox Bishop praying with the heterodox or heretics IS making a public statement.

Also, I think that deusveritasest has put it very well; many of us who will not pray with you pray for you.  Not exactly a sign that we hate you.
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2011, 11:08:10 PM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
No, but the justification for the canon is unimportant to me. The fact is that the canons exist and the Roman Catholic Church has, in recent years, abandoned them for no good reason.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 01:23:38 AM »

I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

Did you actually type that with a straight face?  The RC church not as legalistic as the EO?  You must be joking.

Your church's dogma is built on little more than legalisms such as, but not exclusive to, a) Sunday obligations and other obligatory holy days b) the cross as atonement and satisfaction to appease the wrath of the Father c) purgatory d) papal infallibility, e) limbo, f) immaculate conception of the Theotokos, etc.. 

But, on the other hand, we should look at where you have allowed the spirit of the law to triumph over the letter of the law (again, not an exhaustive list):  a) fasting on Fridays now optional b) the traditional Liturgy now optional c) priest facing ad orientem, not always preferred d) receiving communion "in the hand" (specifically forbidden by the Roman canons), etc..

Catholics are all about legalisms though they're more charitable to praxis than dogma.  Catholics have largely made the praxis of the faith a "do what you feel like" choice.   

So, I repeat, did you actually type your statement with a straight face?
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2011, 01:37:27 AM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.

There's a difference between not being legalistic, and being opportunist. The RCC not only prays with non-Catholics, but allows its own members to deny its teachings and mangle its traditions without repercussions.
Nope

2 things:

1.

2. Roger Mahony

I am a convert from RC... I love the RCC and deeply lament that I had to leave but to say that they didn't throw the baby out with the bath water (in regards to any sense of orthodoxy) is, at the very least, looking at the world through rose colored glasses. With the notion that crazy stuff only goes on at the diocesan level and the Vatican has noting to do with it, well, qui tacet consentire videtur ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 01:45:04 AM »

1.
Should be a crime. Oh wait he's infallible...
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2011, 02:07:59 AM »

There was no less of a need to evangelize the world when the canons were written. Christianity has only grown since then. If we need to evangelize now, certainly we needed to evangelize back then?

Needs have not changed. Heresy is still heresy and it's still dangerous. We should be following the wisdom of the Fathers instead of disregarding it for supposed changing needs.
Because praying with a Protestant is going to change me into one? I don't think so.
Nope, but it does two things...
1. gives the wrong impression to seekers of truth, looking for authentic Christianity.
2. influences soft believers into hunting and picking what they like and don't like about their faith.
1. Yeah, you wouldn't want anyone to get the false idea that Christians love one another.  Roll Eyes
2. Such people aren't truely following Christ in the first place.

1. Christians do.  They just don't like praying with heretics.
2. Just like heretics.

On thing that I have observed in my life is that what is impure does not become pure by mingling with the pure.  But the pure becomes fouled when mingled with the impure.  It is my firm belief that Ecumenism, in the form being discussed here, is not being done to purify, but is a diabolical act performed to foul what is pure.  Perhaps that is why the RC is in such a hurry to pray with anything that moves, while the Orthodox try to keep their distance?  And, as Irish Hermit wrote, it is not a matter of the Orthodox considering ourselves "better" than the heretics and heterodox.  It is a matter that we believe that what was handed down to us in the canons is beneficial for our Salvation, and violating that guidance is not beneficial for our Salvation.  It tends to make some of use suspicious when, like the snake in Eden, groups of people keep trying to get us to violate those canons, particularly by using snake like logic such as "if you don't pray with us, you don't love us", or "those canons really don't mean anything today", or other such trickery.  Believe me, if the canons said "pray with the heretics because they may learn from your prayers", I would be attending Mass nearly every evening, at least those evening that I was not worshiping with by Lutheran friends.  I love being in Church, and I have both Lutheran and RC Churches very close to where I live, and the RC have services almost daily.  I don't stay out of these Churches because I hate the people in them, I stay out of them because the Fathers thought enough of this to attach severe penalties for violating these canons, again as Irish Hermit has already pointed out.  I am not happy about it, but most medicine is bitter.

In addition, I have been told that there is a difference between private prayer and corporate prayer.  If I pray with my Lutheran father and mother in the privacy of our home (which I have been given permission to do), I am not making any public statement of unity.  An Orthodox Bishop praying with the heterodox or heretics IS making a public statement.

Also, I think that deusveritasest has put it very well; many of us who will not pray with you pray for you.  Not exactly a sign that we hate you.

Great post!
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2011, 10:24:24 AM »

1.
Should be a crime. Oh wait he's infallible...

Ok, that's not touched by infalliability. And there are plenty of Catholics that think thats #%*<£.
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2011, 12:42:46 PM »



Catholics are all about legalisms though they're more charitable to praxis than dogma.  Catholics have largely made the praxis of the faith a "do what you feel like" choice.   


That's not my experience at all. Most of the devout Catholics I meet are far from legalistic. But the constant squabbling about cannons and who we should and should not pray with amongst Eastern Orthodox Christians leads me to believe that EOs are extremely legalistic.
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2011, 12:44:47 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.
How's purgatory doing?
Great. What wonderfully mercifucl gift from God, that we are not expected to be legalistically perfect when we die.
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2011, 01:08:16 PM »

During his 6 day visit to the Holy Land in 2000, Pope John Paul visited many holy places.  But nowhere was he able to find Orthodox who would pray with him.  One particular incident stands out, at the patriarchal reception for the Pope In Jerusalem.  A Catholic bishop took the microphone and unexpectedly asked all present to pray the Our Father.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Orthodox bishops remained silent.

Information on this is here:

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no2/pope_pilgrimage.htm
How sad that Eastern Orhtodox bishops refuse to pray.

Indeed.

It may be "intended" as not to dilute the faith with allowance of percieved heresy. However, it rubs of completely as "I wouldn't be caught dead praying with the likes of you! *sneer*"
I have to say that the refusal of the EO bishops to pray in the presence of us "graceless and heretical latins" is one of the things that really turns me off to Eastern Orthodoxy. If it is true that "you shall know them by their fruit", what am I to think of such actions?
And the fact that Catholic bishops pray with non-Catholics, in spite of all the canons prohibiting it, is one of the things that really turned me off from Roman Catholicism.
The fact that those cannons from the councils are pastoral and not dogmatic means that they can be changed to meet changing needs. There is great need to evangelize the world and to bring non-Catholics back into the fold. I am grateful that my Church is not as legalistic as the EO Church.
How's purgatory doing?
Great. What wonderfully mercifucl gift from God, that we are not expected to be legalistically perfect when we die.

sigh....
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2011, 02:29:30 PM »

But the constant squabbling about cannons and who we should and should not pray with amongst Eastern Orthodox Christians leads me to believe that EOs are extremely legalistic.

Just wanted to correct you as the spelling police as I've seen you do this numerous times now. A cannon is what pirates use to shoot cannonballs. A canon is a something quite different!  Cheesy
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