OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 18, 2014, 07:49:34 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Consecration and Christ is present in RC & EO  (Read 1202 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Dave in McKinney
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic but loving Byzantine Catholicism
Posts: 85



« on: January 07, 2011, 05:40:49 PM »

Quote
TOn the eucharist: "...For the calvinists, Christ after the ASCENSION dwells in heaven, and consequently, the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is impossible. Christ then, is totally absent from the eucharist. The Papal view is somewhat similar, inasmuch that it stresses through the prayer of the priest, Christ, who was not present, now becomes present. ( The conclusion is that christ is absent from the church) The fact is however, ... the members of the church have the pledge of the spirit and are participants in theosis

Found the above quote in a much older thread.  This seems to imply that the in the EO church that the priest is not calling down the Holy Spirit to change the bread & wine, but rather the congregation is?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,605



« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 05:56:08 PM »

Quote
TOn the eucharist: "...For the calvinists, Christ after the ASCENSION dwells in heaven, and consequently, the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is impossible. Christ then, is totally absent from the eucharist. The Papal view is somewhat similar, inasmuch that it stresses through the prayer of the priest, Christ, who was not present, now becomes present. ( The conclusion is that christ is absent from the church) The fact is however, ... the members of the church have the pledge of the spirit and are participants in theosis

Found the above quote in a much older thread.  This seems to imply that the in the EO church that the priest is not calling down the Holy Spirit to change the bread & wine, but rather the congregation is?
Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered.

And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. (Amen)

And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. (Amen)

Making the change by the Holy Spirit. (Amen, Amen, Amen )

That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 05:58:32 PM »

As per the above post, I would say that the celibrant calls down the Holy Spirit, and the congregation affirms his request.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,994



« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2011, 01:05:26 AM »

^Technically, no.  The service books which direct the people to respond "amen" are in error.  The people are to be singing the hymn "We hymn Thee, we bless Thee..." while the epiclesis goes on and the "amens" are to be said by the Deacon.   There has been considerable discussion about this particular issue already.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,605



« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 01:14:09 AM »

^Technically, no.  The service books which direct the people to respond "amen" are in error.  The people are to be singing the hymn "We hymn Thee, we bless Thee..." while the epiclesis goes on and the "amens" are to be said by the Deacon.   There has been considerable discussion about this particular issue already.
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? I Cor. 14:16.

The service books which direct the people to respond "amen" are correct.  Like you said, there has been considerable discussion about this particular issue already, not least the issue of the many Churches who lack deacons.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 01:22:11 AM »

The service books which direct the people to respond "amen" are correct.  Like you said, there has been considerable discussion about this particular issue already, not least the issue of the many Churches who lack deacons.

Phew!  I am stunned!  There are Service Books which direct the people to say "Amen"  !!?   Do you know in which Orthodox countries this is done?

At this point the choir is singing  "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...." and the people would probably not hear the words of the priest over the singing of the choir.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,907


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 04:04:05 AM »

Phew!  I am stunned!  There are Service Books which direct the people to say "Amen"  !!?   Do you know in which Orthodox countries this is done?

At this point the choir is singing  "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...." and the people would probably not hear the words of the priest over the singing of the choir.

In any that use the Byzantine Liturgy of St. James, at least a correct translation of it.  The Syrian, Coptic, Ethiopian, and Assyrians also assign the Amens of the Epiclesis to the people.  It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came about as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond.  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 04:17:21 AM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 04:08:28 AM »

Phew!  I am stunned!  There are Service Books which direct the people to say "Amen"  !!?   Do you know in which Orthodox countries this is done?

At this point the choir is singing  "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...." and the people would probably not hear the words of the priest over the singing of the choir.

In any that use the Byzantine Liturgy of St. James, at least a correct translation of it.

I confess that in 30 years I have never encountered this Liturgy.  My predecessor in the NZ parishes, Fr Alexey Godyaew, was a deacon in Belgrade (a Russian refugee) when the first resurrected Saint James was served as an historical showpiece, in the 30s or 40s.  So I only know of it what he used to tell me.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 04:12:36 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 04:11:47 AM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond. 

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,816



« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 04:17:16 AM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond.  

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?

If I am understanding what yuns guys are talking about, it's par for the course at the parish that I used to attend to say amen's at that point in the liturgy. I guess you can take heart in the fact that everything that was "secret" has, at one time or another, come to be easily accessible/public. They stopped sending catechumens out at a certain point in the service, and then everyone could find out what was going on; they stopped keeping certain things only as oral traditions and finally wrote about them, and then everyone could find out; they stopped refraining from writing about the sacraments for fear that the "swine" might get ahold of the documents, and then everyone could find out; and on it goes.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 04:18:00 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 04:31:22 AM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond. 

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?

If I am understanding what yuns guys are talking about, it's par for the course at the parish that I used to attend to say amen's at that point in the liturgy.

So is this some peculiarity of anglophone converts in the United States?  Is it done by Serbs and Greeks and Romanians?

Is it some kind of "liturgical movement" in American convert Orthodoxy which wants to go back to origins and purify the Liturgy. I wonder if anyone has learned from Constantinople...they say history repeats itself. The Liturgy is like the human heart; it's sacred ground. On sacred ground you tiptoe.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,816



« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 04:41:14 AM »

So is this some peculiarity of anglophone converts in the United States?  Is it done by Serbs and Greeks and Romanians?

Is it some kind of "liturgical movement" in American convert Orthodoxy which wants to go back to origins and purify the Liturgy. I wonder if anyone has learned from Constantinople...they say history repeats itself. The Liturgy is like the human heart; it's sacred ground. On sacred ground you tiptoe.

I've been in parishes from a variety of jurisdictions, but unfortunately I can't remember that particular detail about their liturgy, I can only vouch for the local Antiochian parish here. And fwiw, the priest at the parish is cradle (Russian) Orthodox, though I don't know if the practice was already in place when he arrived or not. Also, about half the parish kneels, and sitting in the pews is fairly common at certain parts of the services. Crazy antiochians  police
Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,717



« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 05:43:57 AM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond. 

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?

If I am understanding what yuns guys are talking about, it's par for the course at the parish that I used to attend to say amen's at that point in the liturgy.

So is this some peculiarity of anglophone converts in the United States?

And occasionally in Finland. But then again that is hardly suprising since my beloved church is a little infamous of her habit of putting these kind of fringe ideas into practise. Undecided
Logged

PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 10:56:03 AM »

It is common in the two Antiochian Parishes I've been apart of. And frequently we have people from the Greek parish celebrate with us and they also respond with the Amens. I spent some time in a Russina Monastery (ROCOR), but can't remember if the practice existed there.  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 10:57:05 AM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,380


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 11:11:51 AM »

I have heard it in some parishes, but not my own.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,605



« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 11:24:50 AM »

Phew!  I am stunned!  There are Service Books which direct the people to say "Amen"  !!?   Do you know in which Orthodox countries this is done?

At this point the choir is singing  "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...." and the people would probably not hear the words of the priest over the singing of the choir.

In any that use the Byzantine Liturgy of St. James, at least a correct translation of it.

I confess that in 30 years I have never encountered this Liturgy.  My predecessor in the NZ parishes, Fr Alexey Godyaew, was a deacon in Belgrade (a Russian refugee) when the first resurrected Saint James was served as an historical showpiece, in the 30s or 40s.  So I only know of it what he used to tell me.
Why resurrect it? They could have imported it from the Middle East, where it didn't die out. In fact, when the Lutherans wrote about the liturgy to the EP Jeremiah II chided them, saying that we didn't need to be taught about the Divine Liturgy as we preserved that which St. James the Brother of God learned from the Lord.  Its use is limited since 1200 among the EO, but among the Syriac Orthodox it is the main liturgy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shiranui117
Formerly known as "Wandering Sheep"
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: ACROD/OCA
Posts: 150


PUDDI PUDDI!


« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2011, 11:59:42 AM »

I have heard it in some parishes, but not my own.
On the one time I went to a Divine Liturgy at my ACROD mission, I BELIEVE we had the Amen's in, but it's been a while. I know it's the standard practice at my Ruthenian Catholic parish, however.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,073


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2011, 12:45:50 PM »

The service books which direct the people to respond "amen" are correct.  Like you said, there has been considerable discussion about this particular issue already, not least the issue of the many Churches who lack deacons.

Phew!  I am stunned!  There are Service Books which direct the people to say "Amen"  !!?   Do you know in which Orthodox countries this is done?

At this point the choir is singing  "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...." and the people would probably not hear the words of the priest over the singing of the choir.


The practice of people saying the "Amens" is found, in my experience, in Antiochian, OCA, and GOA parishes, although not all of them; depending on the jurisdiction, it may be a majority of parishes, or a plurality, but it is not "rare" in any of them.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 532


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 01:04:46 PM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond. 

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?

If I am understanding what yuns guys are talking about, it's par for the course at the parish that I used to attend to say amen's at that point in the liturgy.

So is this some peculiarity of anglophone converts in the United States?  Is it done by Serbs and Greeks and Romanians?

Is it some kind of "liturgical movement" in American convert Orthodoxy which wants to go back to origins and purify the Liturgy. I wonder if anyone has learned from Constantinople...they say history repeats itself. The Liturgy is like the human heart; it's sacred ground. On sacred ground you tiptoe.

Dear Father:  

As far as I have been able to determine, the custom of the priest saying the Anaphora outloud with the people saying the Amens at the Epiclesis (at least in the United States) is traceable to the influence of Father Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory. Since Father Alexander was the Dean of St. Vladimir's Seminary in New York where many priests of the OCA and the Antiochian Archdiocese are trained, seminarians picked up this custom and began to practice it when they were ordained as priests. One can certainly debate the merits of such a practice, but we are all products of our education, and I would not come down too hard on a priest who was taught to pray the Anaphora outloud and have his people say the Amens. Having said that, the practice is not without some controversy as well. While many St. Vladimir's graduates come down on the side of saying the prayers aloud and giving the Amens to the people, not all Orthodox in America agree with them.  I've met more than a few graduates of St. Tikhon's Seminary who prefer the traditional practice of the priest saying the Anaphora in a low voice and having the deacon say the Amens.  I have even seen priests have spirited discussions and debates with one another about whether these prayers should be said aloud or in a low voice and whether the deacon or the people should say the Amens. I would guess that in most OCA and Antiochian parishes in North America, the anaphora and the Amens are said aloud, but there are still pockets of traditionalists that celebrate in a low voice. I don't think saying the Anaphora outloud is as widespread among the Greeks as it is among the OCA and the Antiochians. Certainly some Greek priests do do it, but all the ones I have ever seen celebrate the Anaphora in the traditional manner of a low voice.  My guess would be that Holy Cross Seminary (the Greek Orthodox Seminary in Brookline, Massachusetts) does not press this issue as much as St. Vladimir's does. As far as ROCOR goes, they seem to very much against the practice of saying the anaphora outloud and follow the traditional practice. Of course, I have also observed that ROCOR is not as enthusiastic about Father Alexander Schmemann and his practices as some other Orthodox jurisdictions are.  

From what I have read Father Alexander picked up the idea that the Anaphora should be said aloud from the French Roman Catholic theologian, Louis Boyer
and from a lot of the liturgical scholarship surrounding the Second Vatican Council. I do find it rather curious that no Orthodox in the world were praying the Anaphora aloud before the Second Vatican Council started in 1965. I find some people get quite angry and defensive with me when I bring up this point, but I feel that wanting the Anaphora and the Epiclesis Amens recited aloud is a kind of Protestant Reformer mentality that just doesn't belong in the Orthodox Church. As a former Lutheran myself, I remember reading about how Luther howled about the Silent Canon of the Tridentine Mass and called it an abomination. Luther, Cranmer, Calvin and Zwingli all protested against the Secret Prayers of the priest and demanded that everything the priest did be outloud and in the vernacular. Every ancient liturgy I have ever studied has certain prayers that the Priest says in a low voice. In fact, it's universal. All the ancient Liturgies, be they Latin, Greek, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Sarum, Gallican, Jacobite, Coptic or Ethiopian have silent prayers for the priest to say.  That is evidence enough for me that this is an apostolic tradition, otherwise it wouldn't be so universal.

However, I don't waste my time discussing this issue with priests who are convinced that the Anaphora and the Epiclesis Amens MUST be prayed aloud. I've gotten my head bitten off too many times for even bringing up the question. (And received some very arrogant and condescending "answers" which were really no answers at all).  So I just keep my mouth shut now.  But I do prefer the traditional practice and one day hope to find a parish where the priest respects and follows the traditional practice.
Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 855


Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!


« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2011, 01:13:58 PM »

In the RC tradition which I assume from the title your also interested in Eucharistic prayer 2 and 3  and possibly 4 before the words of institution the priest streches out his hands over the gifts and prays

"Let Your Spirit Come upon these gifts to make them holy that they may become for us the Body and Blood(+) of our Lord Jesus Christ at whose command we celebrate this Eucharist"
Logged

"Come ye take light from The Light that is never overtaken by night and glorify the Christ, who is risen from the dead"
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2011, 03:22:29 PM »


It should be obvious that assigning it to the deacon came abour as a result of the taking the Anaphora silently and the people's inability to hear and respond. 

Yes, but I am stunned (as I said) by the seeming existence of groups of Orthodox laity today who are saying the Amens at the Most Secret Prayer.  Is this some small sect?  In what countries is this happening?

About as stunned as I was to find a liturgy that NEVER changes...ever...never...never-forever!!

 laugh laugh laugh
Logged

Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.095 seconds with 48 queries.