OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 08:37:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: American Chant  (Read 2690 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« on: January 07, 2011, 12:33:59 AM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
88Devin12
Moderated
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,922



« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 01:01:27 AM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

Beautiful... I recognize that "melody" from somewhere, or something very similar to it...
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 6,034



« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 01:04:37 AM »

Not to sound divisive, but why all the need to have a distinctive "american" expression of Orthodoxy?  And how is that different from the criticisms I so often see of national churches and their tradition?  I'm perfectly happy with Byzantine and neo-Byzantine chant used here in America.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
88Devin12
Moderated
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,922



« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 01:09:53 AM »

Not to sound divisive, but why all the need to have a distinctive "american" expression of Orthodoxy?  And how is that different from the criticisms I so often see of national churches and their tradition?  I'm perfectly happy with Byzantine and neo-Byzantine chant used here in America.

Me too, but every location Orthodoxy has touched (at least, until recently) has developed it's own style of chant. I also think some hope it would help give us "legitimacy" to the so-called "Old World" Churches to show that it's really sticking and isn't just a Church based on immigration. (though there isn't anything negative about immigrants, I'm not saying that)

In fact, Alaska (or parts) has had it's own chanting style for a while now.
Logged
Spartan563
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 59



« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 03:50:07 AM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

Personally, I don't care for it.  Sounds like a barber shop quartet.
Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 04:01:53 AM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

Personally, I don't care for it.  Sounds like a barber shop quartet.
You're probably not used to hearing decent harmonies from a small, all-male choir.

Otherwise, I think it's fine.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 10:39:23 AM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

I like it. I think the ACROD style of chant could also get a lot of mileage in this country.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 02:49:08 PM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

I like it. I think the ACROD style of chant could also get a lot of mileage in this country.

Carpatho Russian plain chant certainly sounds the best to my ears of all the Orthodox chant I've heard, and is what I thought of when I heard the above "American chant"  Smiley
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 03:28:14 PM »

Sounds like a barber shop quartet.

Sounds a bit like Simon & Garfunkel to me.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 03:31:53 PM »

Sounds like a barber shop quartet.

Sounds a bit like Simon & Garfunkel to me.


Ouch!
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2011, 03:41:13 PM »

Sounds like a barber shop quartet.
Sounds a bit like Simon & Garfunkel to me.
Ouch!

I didn't mean that to be as brutal as it looks.  I'm blaming Devin's comment about the melody's familiarity.  Smiley
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,817



« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 03:41:32 PM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

I love it and I say this from a person who has grown up in the Bulgarian Church, and loving the Byzantine chanting and Slavic-type choral/congregational singing. I would like to point out that it is common for local Orthodox Churches to have adapted local folk melodies, as indicated by the following in the Orthodox Wiki:

"Ideas of originality and free invention similar to those seen in later music probably never existed in early Byzantine times. The very notion of using traditional formulas (or melody-types) as a compositional technique shows an archaic concept in liturgical chant, and is quite the opposite of free, original creation. It seems evident that the chants of the Byzantine repertory found in musical manuscripts from the tenth century to the time of the Fourth Crusade (1204-1261), represent the final and only surviving stage of an evolution, the beginnings of which go back at least to the sixth century and possibly even to the chant of the Synagogue. What exact changes took place in the music during the formative stage is difficult to say; but certain chants in use even today exhibit characteristics which may throw light on the subject. These include recitation formulas, melody-types, and standard phrases that are clearly evident in the folk music and other traditional music of various cultures of the East, including the music of the Jews." (My emphasis) See further at http://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Chant

I believe the same point may be made about Russian hymnody. See http://www.novgorod.ru/english/read/information/orthodox-hymnody/introduction/ Thus, anybody advancing a definitive style of hymnody and rejecting any changes/additions/etc.. is not speaking in accord with Orthodox praxis.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 04:06:53 PM »

Meh, Appalachian styling of our chants?  If I wanted Appalachian music I could have stayed Southern Baptist!  But I agree it does sound very Simon and Garfunkel as opposed to barbershop quartet.  I'd prefer barbershop.

However....
Not to sound divisive, but why all the need to have a distinctive "american" expression of Orthodoxy?  And how is that different from the criticisms I so often see of national churches and their tradition?  I'm perfectly happy with Byzantine and neo-Byzantine chant used here in America.

The main problem is Byzantine isn't the only chant used here in America.  There's also Znammeny, Obikhod, Carpathian plain chant, etc.  I think a "distinctive American" chant should incorporate all these to some degree or another.

But, if we need to do traditionally American music why not something on the pentatonic blues scale without the shouting and crying out usually associated with blues and gospel?  It's not that far off from most of the Byzantine tones used (especially with the sliding pitch between the 4th and the 5th).
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
88Devin12
Moderated
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,922



« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2011, 04:23:54 PM »

I had someone else listen to it and they commented that it sounds a bit like "Oh Shenandoah". But I don't think that is quite the melody I was thinking of.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,253



« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2011, 05:20:59 PM »

Not to sound divisive, but why all the need to have a distinctive "american" expression of Orthodoxy?  And how is that different from the criticisms I so often see of national churches and their tradition?  I'm perfectly happy with Byzantine and neo-Byzantine chant used here in America.

Me too, but every location Orthodoxy has touched (at least, until recently) has developed it's own style of chant. I also think some hope it would help give us "legitimacy" to the so-called "Old World" Churches to show that it's really sticking and isn't just a Church based on immigration. (though there isn't anything negative about immigrants, I'm not saying that)

In fact, Alaska (or parts) has had it's own chanting style for a while now.
Exactly. The Church in Japan began organically developing its own style of chanting at the behest of St. Nicholas of Japan, if I remember correctly. It still sounds very Russian sounding, but you can definitely tell the Japonic influences are there.

I really liked this as it doesn't sound contemporary "American" but it definitely has a sense of majesty to it, which I believe would be necessary for any chanting style.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2011, 05:30:43 PM »

Beautiful.
Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,296



« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2011, 05:35:53 PM »

I'm all for hillbilly Orthodoxy.  Smiley
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2011, 07:49:54 PM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

I like it. I think the ACROD style of chant could also get a lot of mileage in this country.

Carpatho Russian plain chant certainly sounds the best to my ears of all the Orthodox chant I've heard, and is what I thought of when I heard the above "American chant"  Smiley

Thank you! Here is a link to Metropolitan Nicholas singing an old Rusyn/Carpatho-
Russian favorite carol, Koli Jasna Zvizda/The Bright Star was Shining. That was one of my grandmother's favorites with about a hundred or so verses. Such melodies were another way peasant cultures used oral traditions to impart important teachings and understandings of the faith.  http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/brilliantstar-carol
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:50:16 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 881


Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!


« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 09:11:15 PM »

I love it
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Spartan563
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 59



« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 10:49:27 PM »

I recently stumbled across this quite beautiful chant recorded by the monks of The Monastery of St. John of San Francisco (OCA). It is an authentic American style (very Appalachian-esque). Is anyone familiar with this particular type of chant. The monastery hopes that it will one day enjoy frequent use amongst Liturgies in America (much in the same way that certain Aleutian melodies have). Any thoughts, comments, or opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04QTftw4X4

Personally, I don't care for it.  Sounds like a barber shop quartet.

You're probably not used to hearing decent harmonies from a small, all-male choir.

And you would know what I'm used to hearing, how??  I didn't say it didn't sound good, I just said "Personally, I don't care for it."  I prefer Byzantine Chant in Church, if that's okay with you.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 10:52:25 PM by Spartan563 » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »

People are feisty around here today!  police
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Paisius
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Wherever the wind blows......
Posts: 912


Reframed


« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 11:03:17 PM »

 I prefer Byzantine Chant in Church, if that's okay with you.



No, it's no okay. I'm gonna need you to go ahead and correct that now if you please.  Tongue
Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2011, 11:02:01 AM »

My crystal ball is in the attic as we still have our Christmas decorations around the house, but I will offer my thoughts. I suspect that as time goes by those who are Orthodox here in  America and Canada will develop their own adaptations of Chant. All of the Chant traditions used across the Orthodox world can be traced by musicologists to the Byzantine Chant. I know from my study of Carpathian chant that it derived over time from local adaptations of existing chant. I will excerpt some of an interesting article on the chant from the Carpatho-Rusyn Society's web page as I believe it illustrates the process of what will likely occur over time through organic development of a North American chant style.

"The roots of the Carpatho-Rusyn Plain chant reach down to the Byzantine liturgical music arranged by St. John Damascene (d. 749) according to the scale of eight tones (Ruth.: hlas --voice, tone) that were in use by the Greeks in the eighth century. There are some liturgical hymns or canticles that could not be fitted into the musical system of these eight tones (Greek: ektoechos-eight tones). The melody of these special hymns repeatedly changed and many of their melodies were preserved. Thus, for example, we have twenty various melodies for the Cherubic Hymn registered by Rev. John Bokshay in his Tserkovnoie Prostopinije (1906). And the number of some melodies can still be increased.

This was not the case, however, with the hymns which were controlled by the eight tones system. Their music was more stable and, even after some changes during the centuries of its use, they retained characteristic elements of the original melody. These original elements must be discovered by the musicologists as they try to present to us the history of the liturgical chant.

Contemporary scholars, studying the Carpatho- Rusyn liturgical chant, are able to trace its origin from Kiev to the Carpathian region. Thus, in the formation of the Carpatho-Rusyn liturgical music we can discover three distinct layers of composition that, in the course of centuries considerably modified the original Byzantine chant, namely: 1) Bulgarian-which developed along the lines of Cyrillo-Methodian tradition; 2) Old Kievan-as was cultivated in the famous eleventh century Monastery of Caves ("Kievo- Pecherska Lavra"); 3) proper Carpathian- through the influence of some popular melodies, characterized by the chromatic scale.

As was mentioned before, Carpatho-Rusyn liturgical singing is monodic chant (Greek: monoidia-singing alone) executed in unison. Of course, a group of people of various sexes and ages could never sing in strict unison. For this reason one can always catch some fragment of folk harmonization in the Rusyn churches. It might be informal or even unconscious, but it certainly adds to the "mystical power" of congregational singing.

In the Carpathian region liturgical as well as folk music was transmitted from one generation to another by means of oral tradition. At the very beginning there were no books containing music available. When they did become available, neither the cantors nor the faithful had sufficient musical education to be able to read first the neumatic (set of signs) and, later, the square or diamond notation. The monastic schools of that period provided qualified candidates with only a practical training in the liturgical chant."
  http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/chant.htm

AS one learns the complexities of the entire Carpathian chant cycle, assuming the student has at least a basic introduction to other chant systems such as Byzantine and Kievan, you can hear the influences of the prior chants. This is true in particular in some of the eight tones of the Matins and special tones used on special feasts.

In that Appalachian folk music is indigenous to North America it is logical that its familiarity may indeed weave itself into a new North American Chant, but it is equally possible that influences of Latino, Blues, Pop and, yes - even Rock  - may do so as well. We shall just have to wait and see as I don't think such a system can just be invented or created at will.

To many of us, this is the beauty and the power of the North American cultural melting pot as its best. We shall have to wait and see.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2011, 03:11:38 AM »

Meh, Appalachian styling of our chants?

This guy's got the right idea, and he's already got the Orthodox beard and hair to boot. Just imagine his own folk rendition of the Trisagion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQnS9XZzGvM
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2011, 03:36:59 AM »

^That guy's got potential!  Cool
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 06:53:43 AM »

THIS IS AMERICAN ORTHODOX CHANT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJCC4Nrvvw0

If you ain't done shape note, you are missing out.

Hard to get the complete effect without being within the "square".

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2011, 11:11:57 AM »

^That guy's got potential!  Cool

Reminds me of a cantor I heard as a kid. He made me appreciate choral singing.... Wink Wink
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.121 seconds with 53 queries.