Author Topic: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...  (Read 2154 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« on: March 27, 2011, 08:03:38 PM »
...I noticied that he grouped JW's and Mormons under Protestantism. This wasn't the first time I've seen someone do that, in fact there is a youtube channel I think called allsaintsmonestary and one of the monks said the same thing.

I've always considered those two as cults personally, but the apologetic I've heard is they are grouped under Protestants because they are heterodox. I have an issue with this because isn't Protestantism itself a movement that protests against the Catholic Church? So Mormons and JWs are like protests of protestantism, except the former is more akin to Islam with its "revelation".
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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 08:11:31 PM »
Yeah. NO Protestant I know ever claimed JW's or Mormons to be under that category. They're more like "that so-called Christian sect that shall not be named."

I don't think they want them, either. The JW's and Mormons are way out in left field, as much as Orthodox might think that Protestants are.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2011, 08:16:54 PM »
Honestly it makes my blood boil whenever a Mormon or JW says they are a Christian. I almost came to blows with a Mormon when he claimed he was just like one of us (Christians).
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2011, 08:42:36 PM »
When I was younger and on rare occasion saw a glimpse of an Orthodox service on TV, I thought they looked like they and the Catholics looked more the same, but I found out later that the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants closer, more like the flip sides of a coin.  Perhaps JWs and Mormons were grouped together with the Protestants on account of similiarities with their Western theology, even with their differences.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 09:14:42 PM »
Context is everything.  In the original quote I was more trying to illustrate the growing aberration that is Protestant history.  Do I believe that Baptists and Mormons are cut from the same cloth?  God forbid.  But did the growing uncertainty and chaos that the move further away from Orthodoxy and the fertile soil of the American 19th century Restorationist explosion lead the way for such deception to take hold?

JWs, on the other hand, are trickier.  In the beginning they were nothing but another late 19th century Restorationist sect with a strong Dispensationalist current, closely akin to the 7th Day Adventists.  That they moved into outright heresy cannot be denied, but are they any less heretical than many of the teachings that are coming from, say, American Episcopalians (not that all Episcopalians have fallen so low, but a growing percentage everyday, and certainly those in the highest seats of power)?  For that matter, how would you categorize Oneness Pentecostals?  I have heard more than a few Evangelical pastors playing along the precipice of heresy, one slip on the sola scriptura edge and they fall back into early Gnosticism, Manicheeism, or Marcionism.

I am very uneasy with the term cult, by the way.  From a certain point of view (and not necessarily a materialistic one) any religion can be labeled a "cult".  I've even seen a few sites that would call perfectly Orthodox monasticism "cultic" behavior.  Now, for harmful "cults" we have certain ones that can be clearly labeled as such, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, the followers of Jim Jones, and the like.  But the whackiness of Mormonism already played itself out, and the only people endangered by JWs are those direly in need of blood transfusions.  Mormonism is these days a sub-Christian religion, indeed akin to Islam, in that they claim Christianity while teaching Paganism.  JWs are clearly Christian heretics.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 09:35:48 PM »
And yet I've heard some Orthodox identify Jehovah's Witnesses as Protestants because they (JWs) form their theology by taking the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura to its logical extremes.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 11:22:25 PM »
And yet I've heard some Orthodox identify Jehovah's Witnesses as Protestants because they (JWs) form their theology by taking the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura to its logical extremes.
Not exactly, considering they render crucial orthodox Christian theology into something else, like John 1:1, denouncing the Incarnation. in their NWT. And of course making erroenous errors from the Greek text just to fit their theology.

And what Protestant sect would denounce the cross as something Christ was crucified on? Again a central tenet to the Christian faith.
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 12:19:03 AM »
Quote
And what Protestant sect would denounce the cross as something Christ was crucified on? Again a central tenet to the Christian faith.
I don't really think you have a grasp of how broad Protestantism is. Especially when you make comments such as the one above.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2011, 12:41:00 AM »
I almost came to blows with a Mormon when he claimed he was just like one of us (Christians).

 Not to throw you under the bus but... you might want to stop and think how your words sound.  But I do agree with your assertion that Mormons and JW's art not Protestants nor are they remotely Christians.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 01:07:48 AM »
Quote
And what Protestant sect would denounce the cross as something Christ was crucified on? Again a central tenet to the Christian faith.
I don't really think you have a grasp of how broad Protestantism is. Especially when you make comments such as the one above.

Name some, I'm willing to be corrected.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 02:24:37 AM »
"Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

The elf Lindir to the hobbit Bilbo Baggins

from The Lord of the Rings - "The Fellowship of the Ring"


Analogy: To Protestants other Protestants no doubt appear different, but to us Orthodox they all appear much the same.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:27:44 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2011, 02:26:34 AM »
Just before my nephew passed away from Leukemia last year, he told me that he had come to the conclusion that scripture didn't claim that Christ was God. Christ, by his understanding of what he read in the bible, was as close to God as a human being could be, but he wasn't God. This comes from a man who earlier had argued with JWs and Mormons alike regarding their incorrect understanding of Christ's deity.

At the time, I was shocked and concerned, but now I have accepted this belief of his and the fact that he really had been almost programmed to come to the conclusion he did. For him, and for so many within his particular group, just as it is for other offshoots from Protestantism, a dogma concerning Christ's deity just isn't an important issue. Virgin birth... who cares? Bodily Resurrection... take it or leave it. They have confidence that God isn't really all that concerned about these things; because, after all, they aren't concerned about them. Usually, they have focused on doctrinal issues that are more vital, in their view; doctrinal issues that also come out of their sola scriptura mindset; those that have captured their attention and haven't been handed down from a *corrupt* Catholic Church.

In all this, I have seen very few people with a faith in Christ like my nephew had. (Lord, have mercy on his errors as I hope He will have on mine.)
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Offline quietmorning

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2011, 08:16:59 AM »
Honestly it makes my blood boil whenever a Mormon or JW says they are a Christian. I almost came to blows with a Mormon when he claimed he was just like one of us (Christians).

I apologize, I can't resist this. . .**will serve myself the cat of nine tails when I'm finished writing** . . .

When a Mormon states they are Christian . . .simply reply:  "So. . .you believe Jesus Christ is GOD and ONE with the Father?"  . . .

And then there is this wicked thought that creeps in. . .that wonders. . .why Muslims aren't called Mohammedians? . . . if Mormons are called Christians?  

eck. . .I'm going to go pray. . .before I get myself into trouble.  . . .  me thinks my ignorance is showing.  *blushes*





« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 08:26:55 AM by quietmorning »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2011, 12:29:48 PM »
Quote
And what Protestant sect would denounce the cross as something Christ was crucified on? Again a central tenet to the Christian faith.
I don't really think you have a grasp of how broad Protestantism is. Especially when you make comments such as the one above.

Name some, I'm willing to be corrected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal  Let's start here.  Also for fun go trawling on any Episcopalian blog on the "reasserter/reappraiser" (polite Anglican speak for "right/wrong") divide.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 11:46:30 AM »
...I noticied that he grouped JW's and Mormons under Protestantism. This wasn't the first time I've seen someone do that, in fact there is a youtube channel I think called allsaintsmonestary and one of the monks said the same thing.

I've always considered those two as cults personally, but the apologetic I've heard is they are grouped under Protestants because they are heterodox. I have an issue with this because isn't Protestantism itself a movement that protests against the Catholic Church? So Mormons and JWs are like protests of protestantism, except the former is more akin to Islam with its "revelation".

How many books do J.W.'s have in their Bible? 66 right? Isn't that a protestant canon? Also, they claim to believe in Sola Scriptura. Isn't Sola Scriptura a protestant belief?

I see them as protestant Restorationists. The other protestants are Reformationists.

Check out this Jehovah Witness video and tell me why it's wrong for us to call them protestant Restorationists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXBHTJgsiec (Jehovah's Witnesses HISTORY Part 1 of 7)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 11:48:10 AM by jnorm888 »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2011, 11:55:46 AM »
Context is everything.  In the original quote I was more trying to illustrate the growing aberration that is Protestant history.  Do I believe that Baptists and Mormons are cut from the same cloth?  God forbid.  But did the growing uncertainty and chaos that the move further away from Orthodoxy and the fertile soil of the American 19th century Restorationist explosion lead the way for such deception to take hold?

JWs, on the other hand, are trickier.  In the beginning they were nothing but another late 19th century Restorationist sect with a strong Dispensationalist current, closely akin to the 7th Day Adventists.  That they moved into outright heresy cannot be denied, but are they any less heretical than many of the teachings that are coming from, say, American Episcopalians (not that all Episcopalians have fallen so low, but a growing percentage everyday, and certainly those in the highest seats of power)?  For that matter, how would you categorize Oneness Pentecostals?  I have heard more than a few Evangelical pastors playing along the precipice of heresy, one slip on the sola scriptura edge and they fall back into early Gnosticism, Manicheeism, or Marcionism.

I am very uneasy with the term cult, by the way.  From a certain point of view (and not necessarily a materialistic one) any religion can be labeled a "cult".  I've even seen a few sites that would call perfectly Orthodox monasticism "cultic" behavior.  Now, for harmful "cults" we have certain ones that can be clearly labeled as such, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, the followers of Jim Jones, and the like.  But the whackiness of Mormonism already played itself out, and the only people endangered by JWs are those direly in need of blood transfusions.  Mormonism is these days a sub-Christian religion, indeed akin to Islam, in that they claim Christianity while teaching Paganism.  JWs are clearly Christian heretics.


I agree! If modern liberal protestant denominations can be called "protestant" and "christian". Then why can't the more conservative protestant groups like J.W.'s and S.D.A.'s be called "protestant" and "christian"?

The Unitarians in New England came from the puritan Congregationalists. Why don't they stop calling them protestant? Why don't they stop calling the liberal united church of christ "protestant".

Why don't they stop calling the liberal PCUSA "protestant"? The liberal ECUSA "protestant"? The liberal ELCA "protestant"?

If all these groups can be called protestant, then why can't Jehovah Witnesses, Church of Christ, and Seventh Day Adventists?

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2011, 12:13:39 PM »
Yeah. NO Protestant I know ever claimed JW's or Mormons to be under that category. They're more like "that so-called Christian sect that shall not be named."

I don't think they want them, either. The JW's and Mormons are way out in left field, as much as Orthodox might think that Protestants are.

yes.  I've spoken to JW's and they tell Christians they are Christians.  but they tell those they try to convert who are opposed to Christianity that their not a part of christendom....wierd...

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 12:20:28 PM »
Who calls Unitarians Protestant?!
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 12:29:37 PM »
Who calls Unitarians Protestant?!
The Unitarian denominations of the 1700s and 1800s were self-consciously Protestant (that is, not Catholic). The Unitarian-Universalist Association of the 20th century, sees itself as a spiritual/humanist organization that includes Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, and whomever else wishes to participate.

But Unitarianism as a personal theology, I'm sure, is not rare among mainstream American Protestants.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 12:30:08 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2011, 02:05:32 PM »
Who calls Unitarians Protestant?!

Ask Harvard University. When the puritan congregationalists split in the 19th century, the Unitarian half took Harvard.
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2011, 02:24:03 PM »
I suppose it all depends on what you mean by "Protestant". By one argument only Lutherans are true Protestants, by another Lutherans, Presbyterians, and various Reformed Churches, yet another would add Anglicans.

Often the term is used to mean those sects which have their ultimate heritage in the Reformation - or groups who rebelled from Rome prior to the Reformation, such as Hussites and Waldosians - in which case Mormons and JW's certainly are Protestants.

Really I think it is all semantics.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2011, 02:33:50 PM »
Really I think it is all semantics.

That's what we do here!  :D

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2011, 04:50:46 PM »

Really I think it is all semantics.
I hope you're not anti-semantic.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2011, 04:53:13 PM »
:D You've really been on a roll these last couple weeks!

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2011, 07:40:28 PM »

Offline Maria

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2011, 08:00:42 PM »


I agree! If modern liberal protestant denominations can be called "protestant" and "christian". Then why can't the more conservative protestant groups like J.W.'s and S.D.A.'s be called "protestant" and "christian"?

The Unitarians in New England came from the puritan Congregationalists. Why don't they stop calling them protestant? Why don't they stop calling the liberal united church of christ "protestant".

Why don't they stop calling the liberal PCUSA "protestant"? The liberal ECUSA "protestant"? The liberal ELCA "protestant"?

If all these groups can be called protestant, then why can't Jehovah Witnesses, Church of Christ, and Seventh Day Adventists?



I think it also has everything to do with the lack of a Trinitarian baptism. JWs and Mormons do not have a Trinitarian baptism, while Seventh Day Adventists do. Converts to Orthodoxy, including Catholics and Protestants, are questioned about their Baptism or lack of Baptism as some Catholics and Protestants were erroneously baptized in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier (or some other egregious formula).

They lack the "one faith, one baptism" of Christians.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:02:40 PM by Maria »
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Not to throw FormerReformer under the bus but...
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2011, 05:42:10 PM »
I think it also has everything to do with the lack of a Trinitarian baptism. JWs and Mormons do not have a Trinitarian baptism, while Seventh Day Adventists do. Converts to Orthodoxy, including Catholics and Protestants, are questioned about their Baptism or lack of Baptism as some Catholics and Protestants were erroneously baptized in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier (or some other egregious formula).

They lack the "one faith, one baptism" of Christians.

I think this is it. The lack of Trinitarian theology. "Christians" are those who confess Christ as the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity "we praise God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (from the ancient hymn, "O Gladsome Light").

Protestants, traditionally, have maintained trinitarian doctrine (and recently, they at least have continued to affirm it on paper). However, Oneness Pentecostals, JWs, Mormons, etc. have denied that essential doctrine. They do not define themselves in contrast to the Roman Catholic Church (existing in protest to it). Mormons, instead, define themselves on a new revelation. JWs and Oneness Pentecostals define themselves against other Protestants (and, in a broader sense, all Christian confessions), each claiming to return to "apostolic" doctrine.

That break, from Trinitarian to Unitarian, I think, forms the border between "Christian" and something else. Some Trinitarians even will baptize in the name of Jesus only, taking their theology from St. Peter in Acts, who says at Pentecost, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) instead of from the Great Commission of Christ to, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). Some of them still confess Christ as God, they simply misunderstand Scripture. Some Pentecostal groups aren't uniform. Sometimes they follow literally the commandment of St. Matthew's Gospel, sometimes they follow literally the commandment of St. Peter recorded in the Book of Acts.

Do they greatly misunderstand the Holy Tradition? Absolutely. That doesn't mean, necessarily, they aren't Trinitarian. However, this can make us understand the great pause our Church takes in whether a Protestant should be baptized or only chrismated.
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