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Author Topic: The Personhood of Christ in relation to the Theotokos  (Read 8509 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 03, 2011, 10:35:23 PM »

Can someone answer me a question : how is it orthodox to say the Divinity of Christ is a person which is given "birth" to when in fact God is not a "person"? How can we speak of a Spirit as something which is given birth to when it is not subject to the physical world, when it is immortal and in the case of God without beginning ? Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 10:39:09 PM »

how is it orthodox to say the Divinity of Christ is a person which is given "birth" to when in fact God is not a "person"? How can we speak of a Spirit as something which is given birth to when it is not subject to the physical world, when it is immortal and in the case of God without beginning ? Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

*sigh*

This sort of thing is precisely what leads me to suspect that the Semiticizing of the Cappadocian doctrine of the Trinity was in fact not sufficient in preserving orthodoxy.
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 10:42:17 PM »

The Deusveritas, Severus of unorthodoxy and Cyril solution is simple I suppose :

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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 10:43:38 PM »

The Deusveritas, Severus of unorthodoxy and Cyril solution is simple I suppose :



You are continually proving that you understand neither the doctrine of the Trinity nor that of the hypostatic union.

Also, interesting when you follow the image to its link that it is not associated with Saint Severus or Saint Cyril, but rather the heretic Eutyches.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 10:45:40 PM »

Quote
the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God"

Amen. The Church is the mystical bride of Christ. What's next on the list for your Theotokos..."co-redeemer"? Fishing people out of Hell with ladders? Thankfully I respect the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and say she was a Holy woman who bore him in her womb, but not a godess ahem.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 10:46:30 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 10:48:39 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the second Qnume of the one True God (the True God of the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

Like I said, the fact that you refuse to refer to one particular hypostasis of the Trinity as God but rather only the Trinity as a whole, and that you imply that you cannot conceive of a union whereby the Logos takes an instance of humanity as His own not involving the Godhead itself taking humanity simply shows that you understand neither the hypostatic union nor the Trinity itself. Your East Syrian theology is highly deficient, even more so than I had once expected.
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 10:59:17 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

I am suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, of one essence with the Father, was truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; He, namely God, was born, suffered, sweated, defecated, bled, and died.

Quote
Today is hung upon the cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the
waters. A crown of thorns crowns Him, who is the King of Angels. He,
who wrapped the heavens in clouds is clothed with the purple of
mockery. He, who freed Adam in the Jordan, received buffetings. He was
transfixed with nails, who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was
pierced with a lance who is the Son of a virgin. We worship your passion,
O Christ. Show us also your glorious resurrection.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 11:02:31 PM by JLatimer » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 10:59:36 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

Like I said, the fact that you refuse to refer to one particular hypostasis of the Trinity as God but rather only the Trinity as a whole, and that you imply that you cannot conceive of a union whereby the Logos takes an instance of humanity as His own not involving the Godhead itself taking humanity simply shows that you understand neither the hypostatic union nor the Trinity itself. Your East Syrian theology is highly deficient, even more so than I had once expected.

I corrected that. I added the Second Qnume of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 11:00:19 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the second Qnume of the one True God (the True God of the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

Isn't this what is implied by "Emmanuel"?
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 11:02:06 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

I am suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, of one essence with the Father, was truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; He, namely God, was born, suffered, sweated, defecated, bled, and died.

Quote
Today is hung upon the cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the
waters. A crown of thorns crowns Him, who is the King of Angels. He,
who wrapped the heavens in clouds is clothed with the purpose of
mockery. He, who freed Adam in the Jordan, received buffetings. He was
transfixed with nails, who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was
pierced with a lance who is the Son of a virgin. We worship your passion,
O Christ. Show us also your glorious resurrection. 2


I did not know the situation was this bad and that people in the west now believe God suffered, was given birth,bled, died and defecated. Sounds strangely familiar...
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 11:05:04 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

I am suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, of one essence with the Father, was truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; He, namely God, was born, suffered, sweated, defecated, bled, and died.

Quote
Today is hung upon the cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the
waters. A crown of thorns crowns Him, who is the King of Angels. He,
who wrapped the heavens in clouds is clothed with the purpose of
mockery. He, who freed Adam in the Jordan, received buffetings. He was
transfixed with nails, who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was
pierced with a lance who is the Son of a virgin. We worship your passion,
O Christ. Show us also your glorious resurrection. 2


I did not know the situation was this bad and that people in the west now believe God suffered, was given birth,bled, died and defecated. Sounds strangely familiar...


You are confusing personhood and essence. No one here is suggesting Jesus is a "blend" of God and man; rather, we believe that Jesus is only one subject or hypostasis. If not God the Word, who suffered on the cross? If only a man or a "humanity", there is no salvation.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 11:05:08 PM »

Quote
the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God"
Amen. The Church is the mystical bride of Christ. What's next on the list for your Theotokos..."co-redeemer"? Fishing people out of Hell with ladders? Thankfully I respect the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and say she was a Holy woman who bore him in her womb, but not a godess ahem.

You like to play "team apostolic" in creating an "us versus them" with the Protestants, but I have to say that you've never sounded more Protestant. Keep hanging out with us and you're going to get covered in Mary cooties. Or you can go hang out with the Protestants where Mary makes a guest appearance every Christmas.
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 11:05:53 PM »

Are you thus suggesting that the second Qnume of the one True God (the True God of the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

No. The Orthodox doctrine is that the Logos suffered because of His humanity.
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 11:07:08 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

I am suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, of one essence with the Father, was truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; He, namely God, was born, suffered, sweated, defecated, bled, and died.

Quote
Today is hung upon the cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the
waters. A crown of thorns crowns Him, who is the King of Angels. He,
who wrapped the heavens in clouds is clothed with the purpose of
mockery. He, who freed Adam in the Jordan, received buffetings. He was
transfixed with nails, who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was
pierced with a lance who is the Son of a virgin. We worship your passion,
O Christ. Show us also your glorious resurrection. 2


I did not know the situation was this bad and that people in the west now believe God suffered, was given birth,bled, died and defecated. Sounds strangely familiar...


Ah, Nestorianism rears it's ugly head... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 11:08:15 PM »

Quote
Would it not be much more orthodox to say that the Virgin gave birth to the humanity of Christ which was subject to the things implied by birth ?

No. It would not. Talk about an epic theology fail.

Ok, then you prefer to say that Immortal God was given birth, when only fleshly living things, creatures of dust are given birth to ? Are you thus suggesting that the one True God (the TRINITY with the Seraphim crying Holy Holy Holy incessantly) suffered, sweated, defecated, was given birth to, and bled as opposed to his humanity?

I am suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, of one essence with the Father, was truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; He, namely God, was born, suffered, sweated, defecated, bled, and died.

Quote
Today is hung upon the cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the
waters. A crown of thorns crowns Him, who is the King of Angels. He,
who wrapped the heavens in clouds is clothed with the purpose of
mockery. He, who freed Adam in the Jordan, received buffetings. He was
transfixed with nails, who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was
pierced with a lance who is the Son of a virgin. We worship your passion,
O Christ. Show us also your glorious resurrection. 2


I did not know the situation was this bad and that people in the west now believe God suffered, was given birth,bled, died and defecated. Sounds strangely familiar...


The Orthodox Church has always taught that the Logos suffered as a consequence of His union with His humanity. This is nothing new.
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 11:08:55 PM »

Ah, Nestorianism rears it's ugly head... Roll Eyes

This is what makes me really sick of ecumenists attempting to acquit the East Syrian church of heresy.
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2011, 11:09:21 PM »

Or you can go hang out with the Protestants where Mary makes a guest appearance every Christmas.

If she's lucky... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »

Ah, Nestorianism rears it's ugly head... Roll Eyes

This is what makes me really sick of ecumenists attempting to acquit the East Syrian church of heresy.

Per the Roman Catholic Church:

"The controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings.

"Whatever our Christological divergences have been, we experience ourselves united today in the confession of the same faith in the Son of God who became man so that we might become children of God by his grace."
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2011, 11:14:20 PM »

Ah, Nestorianism rears it's ugly head... Roll Eyes

This is what makes me really sick of ecumenists attempting to acquit the East Syrian church of heresy.

Per the Roman Catholic Church:

"The controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings.

"Whatever our Christological divergences have been, we experience ourselves united today in the confession of the same faith in the Son of God who became man so that we might become children of God by his grace."


What is your point?
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2011, 11:23:58 PM »

Sorry.  I just realized that my post only made sense in my head. Smiley

Those quotes were statements from Rome regarding ACOE.  I was responding to your post that you are sick of ecumenists who are trying to acquit the ACOE of heresy. 
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2011, 11:28:13 PM »

Sorry.  I just realized that my post only made sense in my head. Smiley

Those quotes were statements from Rome regarding ACOE.  I was responding to your post that you are sick of ecumenists who are trying to acquit the ACOE of heresy. 

So you are showing an example of what I was talking about, or you are trying to show that the East Syrian church actually ought to be acquitted of heresy on the basis of what you posted?
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2011, 11:37:55 PM »

I'm offended.  You should know me better than that. ;-)

An example of what you are talking about.  This wave of ecumenism disturbs me.  It exists in RCC, EOC, OC, ACOE, and of course, Protestantism. Of course the leader in this movement is the RCC.  I wonder why the RCC has such pull.  Perhaps the sheer size?  I don't know.
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »

Quote
You like to play "team apostolic" in creating an "us versus them" with the Protestants, but I have to say that you've never sounded more Protestant. Keep hanging out with us and you're going to get covered in Mary cooties. Or you can go hang out with the Protestants where Mary makes a guest appearance every Christmas.

I know what you mean Alveus. There's a connection though. All this sort of thing of the "Theotokos" putting ladders for people in Hell so they could come and serve her as the Bride of Christ and co-redeemer, cosmic "Mother of the Trinity" etc. is one reason protestantism happened. Purgatory is another good reason. If the RCC did not peddle such "unorthodoxies" and the Orthodox churches hadn't caved in to what an egyptian said 15 centuries ago, they would now have a sound theology on who the Virgin Mary really is.

Quote
If not God the Word, who suffered on the cross? If only a man or a "humanity", there is no salvation.

His humanity suffered on the Cross. What, your not saying to me the Divine Logos suffered are you???!

Quote
The Orthodox Church has always taught that the Logos suffered as a consequence of His union with His humanity. This is nothing new.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would. If somebody wants to refer to the Trinity in the same way Alexander the Great referred to whatever he worshipped or what Eutyches or Cyril's ancestors worshiped that's their problem.
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 11:43:52 PM »

His humanity suffered on the Cross. What, your not saying to me the Divine Logos suffered are you???!

Yes, we are. And you are rendering redemption null.
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 11:46:45 PM »

His humanity suffered on the Cross. What, your not saying to me the Divine Logos suffered are you???!

Yes, we are. And you are rendering redemption null.

Actually that's what you are doing by saying Christ did not give his Father a Qurbana (ie: a  sacrifice/offering of the highest order to God) of his humanity but instead a thing which is not human but a frankenstein thing made of Divinity and humanity which could never redeem us. Here is a wonderful work by the Harp of the Holy Spirit Mar Narsai :

An Exposition of The Mysteries

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled  Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law,  as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him  upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all,  as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.

He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto  Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.

He set out and departed to a desert place, as  Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and  worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.

He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her  sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and  wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the  boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.

He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed  that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a  sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called  Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time  of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.

the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.

He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with  their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas  to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 11:50:57 PM »

I'm offended.  You should know me better than that. ;-)

Sorry.  Sad

An example of what you are talking about.  This wave of ecumenism disturbs me.  It exists in RCC, EOC, OC, ACOE, and of course, Protestantism. Of course the leader in this movement is the RCC.  I wonder why the RCC has such pull.  Perhaps the sheer size?  I don't know.

I have a Coptic friend who tells me that the Vatican is the driving force behind this ecumenism and is even the "magician behind the curtain" of the WCC. I'm not sure that he is wrong about this.

They have this pull for a few reasons. The power and influence they have. Their size as the predominant Christian community in the world. How jurisdictionally organized they are in comparison to us. I'm sure that how conciliatory they makes themselves sound in dialogue is a contributing factor as well.

The disturbing part of this all is that in most cases, even with conservative reservations, most of these communities actually turn out more heretical than one is led to expect once one digs deeper. This has certainly turned out to be the case with the East Syrians.
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2011, 11:51:59 PM »

Does Eastern Orthodoxy teach that the Divine Nature suffered on the cross?
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2011, 11:52:59 PM »

Actually that's what you are doing by saying Christ did not give his Father a Qurbana (ie: a  sacrifice/offering of the highest order to God) of his humanity but instead a thing which is not human but a frankenstein thing made of Divinity and humanity which could never redeem us.

No, I am saying that the Logos offered up His humanity to the Father. You are consistently distorting what we are claiming.
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2011, 11:54:03 PM »

Does Eastern Orthodoxy teach that the Divine Nature suffered on the cross?

No one teaches that the Godhead suffered on the Cross (no matter how much Rafa would like you to believe otherwise). Both the EO & OO teach that the Logos suffered on the Cross.
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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 12:03:01 AM »

Does Eastern Orthodoxy teach that the Divine Nature suffered on the cross?

No one teaches that the Godhead suffered on the Cross (no matter how much Rafa would like you to believe otherwise). Both the EO & OO teach that the Logos suffered on the Cross.

Really?

Then BEHOLD :

"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate-Logos is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His humanity even for a moment or twinkling of an eye.
-Common Christological agreement between RCC and Coptic Church (1988)

If the humanity and Divinity were not seperate even for the "twinkling of an eye" what you believe is just plain old rehashed paganism. Of course the Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe this nonsense- it believes like the ACOE that Christ had two natures, fully 100% seperate with no mixture whatsoever at any point in time...not even for the twinkling of an eye!  There's a world of difference between the two statements. The Eastern Orthodox church recognized the error of the theology expressed above, and set up the council of Chalcedon to correct the problem thankfully and return to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 12:08:17 AM »

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would.

Ok, I didn't realize you were ACOE until just now. Please note that the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine, and that Mary gave birth to both his human and divine nature (in one person), which is why she is given the title "Birthgiver of God" or Theotokos, not merely Christotokos.
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« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 12:49:16 AM »

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would.

Ok, I didn't realize you were ACOE until just now. Please note that the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine, and that Mary gave birth to both his human and divine nature (in one person), which is why she is given the title "Birthgiver of God" or Theotokos, not merely Christotokos.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to say that the Theotokos gave birth to the Logos' divine nature in the context of the way you guys use the term nature. I think it would only make sense to say that Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth to a theanthropic hypostasis.
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 12:53:45 AM »

Really?

Then BEHOLD :

"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate-Logos is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His humanity even for a moment or twinkling of an eye.
-Common Christological agreement between RCC and Coptic Church (1988)

How does that indicate that we believe that the Godhead suffered on the Cross?

If the humanity and Divinity were not seperate even for the "twinkling of an eye" what you believe is just plain old rehashed paganism.

You don't understand what separation means. Separation means being apart. Separation and distinction are two very different things. Two things can be inseparable while still being distinct. Even your Christology would technically qualify the Logos being inseparable from the human He assumed.

Of course the Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe this nonsense- it believes like the ACOE that Christ had two natures, fully 100% seperate with no mixture whatsoever at any point in time...not even for the twinkling of an eye!

Inseparability does not necessitate mixture. Once again you are quite mistaken. Try reading the Chalcedonian Creed. It quite explicitly declares that the two natures of Christ are inseparable.
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« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 01:18:27 AM »

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would.

Ok, I didn't realize you were ACOE until just now. Please note that the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine, and that Mary gave birth to both his human and divine nature (in one person), which is why she is given the title "Birthgiver of God" or Theotokos, not merely Christotokos.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to say that the Theotokos gave birth to the Logos' divine nature in the context of the way you guys use the term nature. I think it would only make sense to say that Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth to a theanthropic hypostasis.

Perhaps you are right. I am only a catechumen, after all...  angel
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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 01:19:06 AM »

Does Eastern Orthodoxy teach that the Divine Nature suffered on the cross?

No one teaches that the Godhead suffered on the Cross (no matter how much Rafa would like you to believe otherwise). Both the EO & OO teach that the Logos suffered on the Cross.

Really?

Then BEHOLD :

"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate-Logos is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His humanity even for a moment or twinkling of an eye.
-Common Christological agreement between RCC and Coptic Church (1988)

If the humanity and Divinity were not seperate even for the "twinkling of an eye" what you believe is just plain old rehashed paganism. Of course the Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe this nonsense- it believes like the ACOE that Christ had two natures, fully 100% seperate with no mixture whatsoever at any point in time...not even for the twinkling of an eye!  There's a world of difference between the two statements. The Eastern Orthodox church recognized the error of the theology expressed above, and set up the council of Chalcedon to correct the problem thankfully and return to Orthodoxy.

Rafa, your argument is completely idiotic and in fact the stupidity in it has reached new levels, probably the stupidest argument I've ever seen...did you not read this part that we confess:

"Without mixture, nor mingling, nor confusion."  For you to equate "separation" with "without mingling" is stupidity.  We say that the humanity and divinity united, and there was no time when there was no unity between them.  Your Church claims that the humanity and divinity stayed united too.  So don't make these stupid arguments.

Second of all, the unity of the divine and the human is a mystery.  Elizabeth called the Virgin, "the Mother of my Lord", i.e. Adonai, which Hebrew people have always used synonymously with God.  There is only one "Adonai," as it is written, "Thou shalt worship the Lord your God.  Thou shalt have no other gods...Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your God in vain."  St. Athanasius, St. Gregory Thavmaturgous, St. Gregory Nazienzen, and I'm not sure, but I believe St. John Chrysostom all used the phrase "Theotokos" for the Virgin.  So the union is a mystery, comprising of no confusion or separation.  The Virgin's flesh was used for the Word to "become man and dwell among us."  The Word dwelt with other humans among them like a human, because the Word "became man."
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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 01:23:08 AM »

Your Church claims that the humanity and divinity stayed united too.  So don't make these stupid arguments.

I would like to clarify that union and separation are two different categories. Division is the opposite of union. Indwelling or conjunction are the opposites of separation.
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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2011, 01:33:34 AM »

Your Church claims that the humanity and divinity stayed united too.  So don't make these stupid arguments.

I would like to clarify that union and separation are two different categories. Division is the opposite of union. Indwelling or conjunction are the opposites of separation.

I've come to believe that Nestorianism might be semi-heresy, semi only because the logic is complete and stubborn idiocy.  They try so hard to confess a unified entity and yet their language speaks two separate side-by-side entities that work together, no different than you or me with the Holy Spirit.  As I read more and more of their theology, I am convinced St. Cyril was right!
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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2011, 01:38:52 AM »

Quote
.  Elizabeth called the Virgin, "the Mother of my Lord", i.e. Adonai, which Hebrew people have always used synonymously with God.

Good luck Minas, this is why the ACOE read everything in Assyrian where it's all crystal clear and there's no need for Greek translations. "Adonai" is a generic word for "Lord". It could mean LORD as you wish it did, but in this context it most probably means "Lord"...her Lord the Messiah.

Quote
St. Athanasius, St. Gregory Thavmaturgous, St. Gregory Nazienzen, and I'm not sure, but I believe St. John Chrysostom all used the phrase "Theotokos" for the Virgin.

Nice try, but the Holiest Saints in existence all made mistakes. St.Gregory Nazianzen taught purgatorial cleansing fires for instance. St.Athanasius thought Esther should be thrown out of the canon and Baruch included, and so forth. I dare you to find a single "Mother of God" in the Patristics of the East. Find me such a thing in Mar Ephrem's writings. You might find something of the sort in Mar Isaac's writings due to Western influences (he was in Egypt) but I doubt it. Find this expression in the works of Aphrahat which contain the oldest teachings in existence on a variety of subjects such as what is repentance. You will not find it. Many of these sages drank from the pure fountain of the Hebrew followers of Christ who taught them or they were descended from and did not lean on their own understanding like many in the West.

Quote
The Word dwelt with other humans among them like a human, because the Word "became man."

Again nice try, but as you know the ACOE uses the actual Aramaic and not Greek translations, and in the Aramaic Peshitta you find the words:

 "Word-the Flesh-the he-was and-he-abided/rested in/by-us"

This is very difficult to interpret and requires Wisdom.  The True interpretation of these Sacred words:

“The word became flesh and dwelt among us.” A devout and pious man laboured for many years in prayer to God, that He would disclose to him the meaning of this declaration: A voice from heaven was at length vouchsafed to him, saying:

“Ascribe to the flesh the word” “became” and to the “Word” ascribe “dwelt “; and the meaning was thus preserved
.


-Mar Odisho, The Book of Marganitha Part 3 :on the Christian Dispensation, Chapter1 On the advent of Christ, and his union


Quote
Your Church claims that the humanity and divinity stayed united too.  So don't make these stupid arguments.

Mar Babai's hymn expressed the ACOE Christology:

One is Christ the Son of God,
Worshiped by all in two natures;
In His Godhead begotten of the Father,
Without beginning before all time;
In His humanity born of Mary,
In the fullness of time, in a body united;
Neither His Godhead is of the nature of the mother,
Nor His humanity of the nature of the Father;
The natures are preserved in their Qnumas*,
In one person of one Sonship.
And as the Godhead is three substances in one nature,
Likewise the Sonship of the Son is in two natures, one person.
So the Holy Church has taught.

   
   

* Qnuma, is an Aramaic word. The nearest equivalent is the Greek “hypostasis”, in Latin “substantia” and in English “substance”.



If this is your faith I apologize.


By the way, I'm wishing that Egypt get's better. I would comfort myself thinking that to be persecuted for the name of Christ is to be blessed (Matthew 5:11). The Copts are thus truly blessed people.
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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2011, 01:49:33 AM »

Very well, we now know what the ACOE teaches with regards to the natures of Christ. However, I don't think you're going to convince anyone here that yours is the correct position and theirs is the incorrect one. Besides, this discussion really has nothing to do with the OP.
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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2011, 01:50:58 AM »

If the Son of God was "in His humanity born of Mary," then Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, Who is God.  That's why we say she is the Mother of God, while condemning anyone who says that the Godhead originated from her.
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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2011, 01:42:03 PM »

I'm offended.  You should know me better than that. ;-)

An example of what you are talking about.  This wave of ecumenism disturbs me.  It exists in RCC, EOC, OC, ACOE, and of course, Protestantism. Of course the leader in this movement is the RCC.  I wonder why the RCC has such pull.  Perhaps the sheer size?  I don't know.

I believe the Roman Catholic Church has such pull, John, because she is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.  I believe she holds the truth and the full authority to teach the truth.  She pulls individual members and the cautious, albeit, qualified respect of the world, secular and religious.

I say this because I believe there is a truth in it that must not be ignored.  It would diminish all of Christianity to cheapen what is real and true about the Catholic Church.  We may decry individual members and their sins, but the Church has stood, rock-solid in time, and I believe her walls reach out of time as well.

M.
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« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2011, 02:24:09 PM »

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would.

Ok, I didn't realize you were ACOE until just now. Please note that the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine, and that Mary gave birth to both his human and divine nature (in one person), which is why she is given the title "Birthgiver of God" or Theotokos, not merely Christotokos.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to say that the Theotokos gave birth to the Logos' divine nature in the context of the way you guys use the term nature. I think it would only make sense to say that Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth to a theanthropic hypostasis.
Seems right to me.
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« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2011, 03:50:37 PM »

As for me and my house, we shall serve the true Orthodox ACOE which never said God suffered like a pagan would.

Ok, I didn't realize you were ACOE until just now. Please note that the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine, and that Mary gave birth to both his human and divine nature (in one person), which is why she is given the title "Birthgiver of God" or Theotokos, not merely Christotokos.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to say that the Theotokos gave birth to the Logos' divine nature in the context of the way you guys use the term nature. I think it would only make sense to say that Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth to a theanthropic hypostasis.
Seems right to me.
Does a Divine Hypostasis undergo change?
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