Author Topic: Prostrations during Paschaltide  (Read 8769 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,631
Prostrations during Paschaltide
« on: April 26, 2004, 01:21:52 AM »
Anyone know what the rubrics say?  Just curious.

I've heard that we're not supposed to do any prostrations during the 40 days of Pascha, but you see the priest doing a prostration after the triple Amen during the Anaphora.  Is the congregation supposed to as well?  Does anyone know the rubrics or have a rubrics book handy?  I'd like to set the record straight.  Thanks!

Offline yBeayf

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 708
  • /etc
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2004, 03:13:01 PM »
Technically, nobody should be doing prostrations at any time in church on Sundays or during Paschaltide and the post-Nativity period (until Theophany eve). The practice of prostrating after the epiclesis (by both clergy and laity) on Sundays arose mainly because of Western influence, but also (mainly among some Middle Eastern Christians) because of limitations while living under Muslim domination.

Offline Oblio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 454
  • The Pointless One !
    • St. Innocent Orthodox Church
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2004, 03:49:39 PM »
Quote
The practice of prostrating after the epiclesis (by both clergy and laity) on Sundays arose mainly because of Western influence, but also (mainly among some Middle Eastern Christians) because of limitations while living under Muslim domination.

I was taught (as an Acolyte/Reader) to prostrate after the epiclesis by a hieromonk who is a native of Byelorus.  He has very little in the way of Western influence and his hometown of Minsk is a fair piece from the Middle East ;)

Offline yBeayf

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 708
  • /etc
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2004, 04:54:11 PM »
Quote
I was taught (as an Acolyte/Reader) to prostrate after the epiclesis by a hieromonk who is a native of Byelorus.
Nobody objects to prostrating on weekdays. The canons, however, specifically exclude prostrations on Sundays and during festal periods.

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2004, 05:18:12 PM »
I know there are several canons that talk about how being on bended knee is prohibited during the period of the Pentacostarian. The first time we are on bended knee is during the vespers on the evening of the Sunday of Pentacost.

You need to be careful when listening to monastics. While many are holy people and know what they are talking about, there are even more who are simple sinners, like us, who know no better then most of us do.  I know of a monastary that many of the monastics prostrate during the reading of the Gospel even though we are told to "Stand Upright." Not everything that is done in a monastery is proper in practice.

Joseph

Offline Oblio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 454
  • The Pointless One !
    • St. Innocent Orthodox Church
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2004, 05:20:57 PM »
Sorry, I should have made clear that this was on Sundays.  

The canons may be clear and I am not versed in them, I was just giving an example of a case where the practice did not arise from Western influence or Muslim oppression :)

Offline yBeayf

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 708
  • /etc
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2004, 06:02:45 PM »
Quote
The canons may be clear and I am not versed in them, I was just giving an example of a case where the practice did not arise from Western influence or Muslim oppression.
It's still very possible that this monk's practice came from Western influence. The 19th-century Russian church was very westernized, and the Church in the Little Russias even more so, due to closer proximity to the various Uniate groups.

Now, one instance of a tradition of Sunday and festal prostrations that is without doubt not due to Western influence is found among the Old Believers: they prostrate at several points during their services (most notably, after every recitation of "It is truly meet"), no matter what day it is. I'm not sure what the origin of this practice is, and if it originated with the Greeks or not; certainly, by the time of the Nikonian reforms, the Greeks had stopped Sunday prostrations, if they ever did them.

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 09:54:16 PM »
Quote
You need to be careful when listening to monastics.

This shouldn't be a problem in the Antiochian Archdiosce...

Offline Oblio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 454
  • The Pointless One !
    • St. Innocent Orthodox Church
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 10:06:06 PM »
Quote
It's still very possible that this monk's practice came from Western influence. The 19th-century Russian church was very westernized, and the Church in the Little Russias even more so, due to closer proximity to the various Uniate groups.

Interesting.  This could be so I suppose, though I will say that he runs (as do I) screaming and yelling from any iconography that has the Western influence. :D

Offline yBeayf

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 708
  • /etc
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 10:16:25 PM »
Quote
Interesting. This could be so I suppose, though I will say that he runs (as do I) screaming and yelling from any iconography that has the Western influence.

Heh, I am exactly the opposite. I'm so used to not prostrating during the liturgy that on weekday liturgies I have to consciously remember to prostrate, and when I visit local Greek-tradition churches all the kneeling just seems weird. On the other hand, I loves me that 19th-century iconography and those glorious Russian choral compositions. I think the iconography in Christ the Savior cathedral is absolutely beautiful, though I know many do not agree with me.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,631
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2004, 02:35:03 AM »
Yeah, yeah people.  But does anyone know what the RUBRICS say?

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2004, 02:50:10 AM »
Heh, I am exactly the opposite. I'm so used to not prostrating during the liturgy that on weekday liturgies I have to consciously remember to prostrate, and when I visit local Greek-tradition churches all the kneeling just seems weird. On the other hand, I loves me that 19th-century iconography and those glorious Russian choral compositions. I think the iconography in Christ the Savior cathedral is absolutely beautiful, though I know many do not agree with me.

You know, Beayf, I look forward to weekday Divine Liturgies when I can properly prostrate. Guess I'm weird.
I do remember that at my home GOA parish that the older parishoners were not kneeling but actually prostrating (almost sideways to fit) in their pews. This is probably my only real objection to pews - that they make prostrations so difficult.
Elsewhere on these boards , last year sometime, we talked about how Sunday prostrations (or kneeling which I call 'prostration -lite' ) began when the Sunday services became the only liturgies the faithful attended, usually because none were offered mid-week.
[As to Jesuit and Uniate influence in the western Russias, yes, there were such effects - Dostoyevsky's full of these references]

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ania

  • Life according to Abe Simpson:
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,097
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2004, 11:04:02 AM »
I just know that in Jordanville, Pasha until Pentecost no prostrations any time.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2004, 11:09:37 AM »
I just know that in Jordanville, Pasha until Pentecost no prostrations any time.  

Absolutely correct!

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline yBeayf

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 708
  • /etc
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2004, 12:21:52 PM »
Quote
You know, Beayf, I look forward to weekday Divine Liturgies when I can properly prostrate. Guess I'm weird.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with prostrating during the liturgy, just that it's a bit unusual for someone from the Russian tradition. I remember the first time I attended a Greek liturgy, and the priest after the epiclesis prostrated for several seconds; I was squinting from my place in the back trying to see what he was doing on the floor (I thought he had dropped something) until it dawned on me that he was prostrating.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,631
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2004, 08:39:31 PM »
This is from my priest, which should settle it.  He is one of the most musically diverse and capable priests around (even though he's only been a priest 6 years).  He was the Ecclesiarch while at St. Vlad's 20 years ago.  A case of not just "copying was what the priest does."

"Technically one does not prostrate during this period, or on any Sunday
at all. Except in the Russian practice on the Sunday of the Veneration
of the Holy Cross. it is only a pious custom, done by some priests, to
prostrate after the anaphora or before Holy Communion, not necessarily
in a prostration of repentance and sorry, but of awe and reverence.
This is only a custom, but practiced out of reverence for the Holy
Gifts."
« Last Edit: April 27, 2004, 08:40:04 PM by Elisha »

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2004, 04:02:27 AM »
Quote
Aristokles: You know, Beayf, I look forward to weekday Divine Liturgies when I can properly prostrate. Guess I'm weird.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with prostrating during the liturgy, just that it's a bit unusual for someone from the Russian tradition. I remember the first time I attended a Greek liturgy, and the priest after the epiclesis prostrated for several seconds; I was squinting from my place in the back trying to see what he was doing on the floor (I thought he had dropped something) until it dawned on me that he was prostrating.

Interesting Beayf,
Funny thing though. I was referring to services today in my Carpatho-Russian parish  ;)  - in not my home Greek parish.
My last visit to an OCA parish also had plenty of prostrations - full, pious, forehead bangers.
As to ROC 'tradition', I've never been to a patriarchal parish, but again, old Dostoyevsky's full of references to prostrations. I never wondered at what point they were being made in his descriptions. I guess I will wonder now.

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline JoeS

  • (aka StMarkEofE)
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,122
  • Global Warming Enthusiast.
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2004, 07:33:57 PM »
During the time between Pascha and Pentecost no one should be kneeling at all even during the week.  After Pentecost kneeling is acceptable but not on Sundays.  

JoeS

Nobody objects to prostrating on weekdays. The canons, however, specifically exclude prostrations on Sundays and during festal periods.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,524
  • The Most Blessed Tikhon: Last Among Equals
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2004, 08:02:22 PM »
Yeah, but when I apply the same rule (used to be the universal tradition as far as I know) to fasting in the EO Church, I get the "cold heretical shoulder" approach.  :D
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Offline Etienne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • OC.net
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2004, 02:24:20 PM »
I thought the canons were quite clear, no prostrations during Paschaltide. And do the Orthodox "stand on their knees"? Is this not a western import?
It is afterwards that events are best understood

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2004, 08:44:51 PM »
I thought the canons were quite clear, no prostrations during Paschaltide. And do the Orthodox "stand on their knees"? Is this not a western import?
And no prostrations on Sunday, correct?
As to "stand on their knees" (how quaint a term), only if any dastardly pews make that the only option for those not near an aisle  :'(

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Etienne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • OC.net
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2004, 07:01:49 AM »
In Russian there is no word for kneeling, and Russian friends introduced me to this 'delightful' description. :D
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 07:02:33 AM by Etienne »
It is afterwards that events are best understood

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 09:33:28 PM »
Just to clarify, as I've gathered from this forum it is unacceptable to prostrate on any Sunday and also anytime between Pascha and Pentecost.  However, people do prostrate themselves at the church I attend on Pentecost Sunday and on the Sunday for the Veneration of the Holy Cross. 

Are there any other Sundays besides these two when it is acceptable to prostrate oneself?

Also, are there any other times that prostrations are forbidden?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 09:59:32 PM »
Just to clarify, as I've gathered from this forum it is unacceptable to prostrate on any Sunday and also anytime between Pascha and Pentecost.  However, people do prostrate themselves at the church I attend on Pentecost Sunday and on the Sunday for the Veneration of the Holy Cross. 

Yes. Also if the Exultation of the Holy Cross occurs on Sunday.

Quote
Are there any other Sundays besides these two when it is acceptable to prostrate oneself?

No.  Btw, the prostrations on Pentacost are actually Monday's vespers.

Quote
Also, are there any other times that prostrations are forbidden?
Not that I am aware of.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 10:01:17 PM »
Yeah, but when I apply the same rule (used to be the universal tradition as far as I know) to fasting in the EO Church, I get the "cold heretical shoulder" approach.  :D

Well, its the discipline of the EO Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2008, 12:42:09 AM »
I have attended several Matins services at my Serbian parish now, actually hoping to get the chance to incorporate some prostrations into my worship.  What I have found is that even during the week, nobody is prostrating themselves (my parish offers Matins and Vespers daily).  I asked my priest about this, and he told me that they only do prostrations during Lent, the exception being to the two feast days I mentioned previously in this thread.

When doing my prayers at home, are there certain prayers that often have prostrations with them?  The only prayer that I do prostrations with is the "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us" prayer, doing a prostration each of the three times that I say the prayer.  So I really have no guide for when it is appropriate for me to prostrate myself.  The only other time that seems appropriate is during the call to prayer: "O come let us worship and fall down..."

Can any of you give me some common and appropriate times to make prostrations?  My church seems optimum as there are no pews, but nobody is doing them, and the morning and evening prayers are even led by very knowledgeable nuns.

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,497
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2008, 12:52:42 AM »
Are you referring to bows, half prostrations, or full prostrations?
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2008, 01:08:05 AM »
Are you referring to bows, half prostrations, or full prostrations?

I am talking about full prostrations, meaning all the way to the ground.

By "half prostrations" are you talking about the bows where you sweep the ground with your hand?

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,497
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2008, 01:26:00 AM »
Are you referring to bows, half prostrations, or full prostrations?

I am talking about full prostrations, meaning all the way to the ground.

By "half prostrations" are you talking about the bows where you sweep the ground with your hand?

Yes.

On a Sunday, we would never do a full prostration; in fact, outside of lent, they are quite uncommon in church (although kneeling during the consecration is a pious practice, and the priest will do a full prostration).

I do a bow during the Holy God, during the "come let us worship", during the Glory, etc.

These are all pious practices which may differ from place to place.
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,631
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2008, 03:35:40 AM »
This is from my priest, which should settle it.  He is one of the most musically diverse and capable priests around (even though he's only been a priest 6 years).  He was the Ecclesiarch while at St. Vlad's 20 years ago.  A case of not just "copying was what the priest does."

"Technically one does not prostrate during this period, or on any Sunday
at all. Except in the Russian practice on the Sunday of the Veneration
of the Holy Cross. it is only a pious custom, done by some priests, to
prostrate after the anaphora or before Holy Communion, not necessarily
in a prostration of repentance and sorry, but of awe and reverence.
This is only a custom, but practiced out of reverence for the Holy
Gifts."

Ahem, no comments on the above?

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2008, 01:45:04 AM »
This is from my priest, which should settle it.  He is one of the most musically diverse and capable priests around (even though he's only been a priest 6 years).  He was the Ecclesiarch while at St. Vlad's 20 years ago.  A case of not just "copying was what the priest does."

"Technically one does not prostrate during this period, or on any Sunday
at all. Except in the Russian practice on the Sunday of the Veneration
of the Holy Cross. it is only a pious custom, done by some priests, to
prostrate after the anaphora or before Holy Communion, not necessarily
in a prostration of repentance and sorry, but of awe and reverence.
This is only a custom, but practiced out of reverence for the Holy
Gifts."

Ahem, no comments on the above?

What - a comment gets ignored for 4 years and all of a sudden you want some attention for it? :D
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,631
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 03:04:01 AM »
This is from my priest, which should settle it.  He is one of the most musically diverse and capable priests around (even though he's only been a priest 6 years).  He was the Ecclesiarch while at St. Vlad's 20 years ago.  A case of not just "copying was what the priest does."

"Technically one does not prostrate during this period, or on any Sunday
at all. Except in the Russian practice on the Sunday of the Veneration
of the Holy Cross. it is only a pious custom, done by some priests, to
prostrate after the anaphora or before Holy Communion, not necessarily
in a prostration of repentance and sorry, but of awe and reverence.
This is only a custom, but practiced out of reverence for the Holy
Gifts."

Ahem, no comments on the above?

What - a comment gets ignored for 4 years and all of a sudden you want some attention for it? :D

I wasn't the one who resurrected the 4 year old thread.

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 03:23:17 AM »
I just thought this was better than starting a new thread on the same subject.  Should I not resurrect old threads that are relevant?

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2008, 11:12:23 AM »
I just thought this was better than starting a new thread on the same subject.  Should I not resurrect old threads that are relevant?
You certainly should. It is very helpful to see what others have written when you have a question or a comment about a particular subject. Please continue to resurrect old threads if you want to discuss something that's already been discussed, and if it hasn't been discussed, open a new thread.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2008, 10:59:25 AM »
I just thought this was better than starting a new thread on the same subject.  Should I not resurrect old threads that are relevant?

I only brought up the "ignored for 4 years" as a joke directed to Elisha.  You are correct, it is much better to bring this thread back than starting yet another thread on topic X or Y.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2010, 10:33:32 AM »
Christos anesti!
I just thought this was better than starting a new thread on the same subject.  Should I not resurrect old threads that are relevant?

I only brought up the "ignored for 4 years" as a joke directed to Elisha.  You are correct, it is much better to bring this thread back than starting yet another thread on topic X or Y.

In that spirit:
Heh, I am exactly the opposite. I'm so used to not prostrating during the liturgy that on weekday liturgies I have to consciously remember to prostrate, and when I visit local Greek-tradition churches all the kneeling just seems weird. On the other hand, I loves me that 19th-century iconography and those glorious Russian choral compositions. I think the iconography in Christ the Savior cathedral is absolutely beautiful, though I know many do not agree with me.

You know, Beayf, I look forward to weekday Divine Liturgies when I can properly prostrate. Guess I'm weird.

I guess I'm weird too: I look forward to a week day DL to prostrate at the epiclesis.

I hope Aristekles/Demetri will rejoin us and that he is well wherever he is.  If someone can get the message to him, tell him "Christos anesti!" and that he is sorely missed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2010, 10:54:12 AM »

I guess I'm weird too: I look forward to a week day DL to prostrate at the epiclesis.

Christ is Risen!
Ta Criost eirithe!


On fast days, whether Wednesday and Friday or the four fasting periods of the year, small bows (waist bows) become prostrations.  So for example when venerating an icon on, say, Wednesday, it is two full prostrations before and one after.   But this is not seen so often among converts in the West.

Offline DanM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
Reader Services during Paschaltide
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2010, 12:04:35 PM »
Christ is risen!

Can anyone direct me to a reliable Reader Service text to be used during the Paschal season?
Thanks, Dan

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2010, 01:49:14 PM »
I guess I'm weird too: I look forward to a week day DL to prostrate at the epiclesis.

OK! So I'm clear on what's been stated in the thread thus far concerning full, head on the ground prostrations, here's the deal in general:

Never on Sundays, nor between Pascha and Pentecost. While we are this point, are the Sunday prohibitions in effect from Great Vespers on Saturday evening until vespers on Sunday evening?

Times when full prostrations are appropriate in church during services:

Throughout Lent, during entrance and exit bows, as well as when venerating the Holy Icons, Cross, et cetera.

On Wednesdays and Fridays when venerating icons, as they are fast days, and also during the other fasts of the year on any day but Sunday.

During the week and on Saturday during the Divine Liturgy, we are supposed to do a full prostration during the epiclesis.

Are there any other points during a weekday Divine Liturgy that we are supposed to do a full prostration?

What about during matins or vespers, such as the "More honorable..." hymn to the Mother of God, or at other such times?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2010, 02:57:34 PM »
I guess I'm weird too: I look forward to a week day DL to prostrate at the epiclesis.

OK! So I'm clear on what's been stated in the thread thus far concerning full, head on the ground prostrations, here's the deal in general:

Never on Sundays, nor between Pascha and Pentecost. While we are this point, are the Sunday prohibitions in effect from Great Vespers on Saturday evening until vespers on Sunday evening?

Yes.  Vespers to Vespers.


Quote
Times when full prostrations are appropriate in church during services:

Throughout Lent, during entrance and exit bows, as well as when venerating the Holy Icons, Cross, et cetera.

On Wednesdays and Fridays when venerating icons, as they are fast days, and also during the other fasts of the year on any day but Sunday.

During the week and on Saturday during the Divine Liturgy, we are supposed to do a full prostration during the epiclesis.

Are there any other points during a weekday Divine Liturgy that we are supposed to do a full prostration?

Great Entrance of Presanctified, and at other points.

DL for Exultation of the Holy Cross or Holy Cross Sunday during Lent, during veneration of the Cross and during the hymn "Before Your Cross..."

Quote
What about during matins or vespers, such as the "More honorable..." hymn to the Mother of God, or at other such times?

If the Spirit moves you...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2010, 07:36:37 PM »
I guess I'm weird too: I look forward to a week day DL to prostrate at the epiclesis.

OK! So I'm clear on what's been stated in the thread thus far concerning full, head on the ground prostrations, here's the deal in general:

Never on Sundays, nor between Pascha and Pentecost. While we are this point, are the Sunday prohibitions in effect from Great Vespers on Saturday evening until vespers on Sunday evening?

Prostrations - never on Saturdays and Sundays, commencing from the Prokimenon at Vespers on Friday evening and finishing with the Prokimenon at Vespers on Sunday evening.  The Prokimenon is the "turning point" when one liturgical day becomes another.

Quote
Times when full prostrations are appropriate in church during services:

Throughout Lent, during entrance and exit bows, as well as when venerating the Holy Icons, Cross, et cetera.

On Wednesdays and Fridays when venerating icons, as they are fast days, and also during the other fasts of the year on any day but Sunday.

During the week and on Saturday during the Divine Liturgy, we are supposed to do a full prostration during the epiclesis.

Are there any other points during a weekday Divine Liturgy that we are supposed to do a full prostration?

What about during matins or vespers, such as the "More honorable..." hymn to the Mother of God, or at other such times?

There are many times when full prostrations are performed in the holy services.   The simple rule is that on fast days waist bows become earth bows.

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re:Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2010, 09:07:18 AM »
Are there any other points during a weekday Divine Liturgy that we are supposed to do a full prostration?

According to the Old Orthodox Prayer Book, which I suppose reflects more ancient usage, prostrations should be performed at the 'Glory to Thee' at the reading of the Holy Gospel, at the Great Entrance, at the Lord's Prayer, at the Epiclisis, and after the Axion Estin.

Offline Elpidophoros

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 292
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2010, 09:38:19 AM »
Old ritualists perform full prostrations during paschaltide,(on 'shine shine new Jerusalem' for example).

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2010, 09:51:29 AM »
Old ritualists perform full prostrations during paschaltide,(on 'shine shine new Jerusalem' for example).
Another example of why the reforms were needed.
Joseph

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,667
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2010, 06:16:54 PM »
Canon 90 of the 6th Ecumenical Council:

We have received from our divine Fathers the canonical law that in honour of Christ's resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays, keeping the prevailing usage, no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for vespers, again with bended knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the evening following the Sabbath, which is the precursor of our Lord's resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection.

Offline Subdeacon Michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 195
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2010, 05:44:01 AM »
There seems to be much confusion about this, so I am glad that FatherHLL has quoted one of the canons that is often cited in suport of the "no prostrations on Sundays" rule.  Here it is with some additional notes, and here is the other commonly-cited canon on the matter, from the first Council of Nicaea, again with notes.

I think that there is often a temptation to be too rigorous about our own interpretation of these things.  A question to those of you who are adamant that prostrations are forbidden on Sundays: do you know, with absolute certainty, that the canons which forbid prayers "on bended knees" actually proscribe prostrations?  The reason I ask is that it seems to me that the plain meaning of the text is that standing, rather than kneeling, is the position to be adopted for prayer on Sundays and the days of Pentecost, in honour of the Resurrection.  There is no mention made of prostrating.  This position of kneeling down for prayer, which is what these canons discuss, seems to me quite a different matter from making a prostration - a momentary gesture of awe and reverence.

When the Holy Chrism is brought out and when the pre-Sanctified Holy Things are removed from the tabernacle, a prostration is made, even if it is a Sunday.  Similarly, as others have said, we prostrate at Sunday Matins on the feast of the Holy Cross if it falls on a Sunday, and also on the third Sunday of Great Lent.  So I do not understand why such a prostration would be forbidden at the epiklesis.  After all, these are not penitential gestures, such as kneeling, but rather are an act of worship and reverence before holy things.

The practice of the Old Ritualists also tells us that these prostrations on Sundays are not an innovation resulting from 18th-century western influence, but were the practice of the Russian church for centuries before the Nikonian reforms brought it in line with the Greek revisions over the centuries.  Are we to believe that the pious faithful from this period of Russian church history, many of whom became great Saints, disregarded the canons and did not understand them, and that all of a sudden we, who are much wiser than they, have some great insight to which they were blinded?  Or might it just be possible that they understood that kneeling down to pray and making a prostration are not the same thing?

In my early days of Orthodoxy, I picked up from rigorist converts that prostrations are absolutely forbidden on Sundays, and that is the practice I followed until recently, when I was confronted by all of the clergy making a full prostration at the epiklesis at an Hierarchical Liturgy on a Sunday.  I was delighted to see this because making a prostration at this point is what my heart calls me to do.  It seems the most natural thing in the world, and I found the rule incredibly restrictive.  I asked my own bishop about this and his response was that there have long been two strains of thought on this matter, and that, while ROCOR practice generally follows that of Jordanville (which, for all of the love that we have for it, we must not forget is only one monastery) in not making these prostrations on Sundays, they are made in large parts of Russia, including Christ the Saviour in Moscow.  He said that there is a place for such variety in the Church.

This is my own viewpoint, as well.  If people are reticent about prostrating on Sundays and, out of honour of the Resurrection of our Lord, choose instead to make a reverence, I have no problem with this.  The problem I have is when those of us who do wish to make the prostrations are accused of being uncanonical, disobedient, ignorant, and so forth, simply for paying honour and worship to the Saviour.  There is something about the mindset behind this that does not sit easily with me.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 05:47:19 AM by Subdeacon Michael »
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2010, 09:34:30 AM »
I may be wrong, but don't the Old Believers consider standing on ones knees during prayer to be inappropriate at any time? How then do they interpret the prohibition of "praying on bended knees" on days of the Resurrection if it's something that shouldn't be done anyway?

Furthermore, while Old Belivers don't replace all prostrations with bows during Paschaltide, they do replace most of them. Would that really be the case if prostrations and "praying on bended knees" were two entirely different things?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 09:38:52 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Subdeacon Michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 195
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2010, 10:43:11 AM »
I may be wrong, but don't the Old Believers consider standing on ones knees during prayer to be inappropriate at any time? How then do they interpret the prohibition of "praying on bended knees" on days of the Resurrection if it's something that shouldn't be done anyway?

Furthermore, while Old Belivers don't replace all prostrations with bows during Paschaltide, they do replace most of them. Would that really be the case if prostrations and "praying on bended knees" were two entirely different things?

As it was explained to me, Orthodox11, both by a young deacon (recently turned hieromonk) and by an igumen of forty years, there is a distinction drawn between those prostrations that are acts of awe and worship and those prostrations which are acts of penitence.  The latter are the ones that are generally not done on Sundays and during Pentecost because they are in keeping with the spirit of kneeling to pray, which is covered by the canons.  The igumen of forty years explained that some older prayer books and sluzhebniks use different terminology for these different acts.  However, I have neither Greek nor Slavonic and do not recall the words that he told me.  Perhaps somebody else may be able to explain more clearly.

In Christ,
Michael
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 10:44:37 AM by Subdeacon Michael »
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline Lenexa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
  • VOCATUS ATQUE NON VOCATUS, DEUS ADERIT
Re: Prostrations during Paschaltide
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2010, 07:04:29 PM »
According to the Russian Old Rite practices prostrations are VERY common in worship and made at certain prayers no matter if it is Sunday, Saturday or a Feastday. If it is not one of the three days I mentioned prostrations are made at prayers which one would normally bow from the waist on the three previously mentioned days.  I would have to look more into this to be certain but I believe that there even more prostrations prescribed for the period of Lent when one would normally bow from the waist on weekdays!
Personally I can say that at the Serbian parish I currently attend and the Antiochian parish I used to attend prostrations are/were normally only made during Lent at the Presanctified Liturgy and during Holy Week. In my private prayer I use the Old Orthodox Prayerbook printed by the Old Orthodox in Erie (ROCOR) and make several prostrations everyday. To re-state what has already been written it simply feels like the right thing to do and the most natural act for one who believes.